|
I never understood why so many people here disliked Michonne in the first place, even in the previous season she was essentially the uber goon. 1. Carries around a katana and refuses to use firearms 2. Hates everything 3. Was dragging zombies around for gently caress's sake that's literally the worst With that said I'm glad she's finally three dimensional.
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 02:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 13:56 |
|
|
El Murguista posted:I never understood why so many people here disliked Michonne in the first place, even in the previous season she was essentially the uber goon. Managed to put up with Andrea for extended periods of time. Also the gore and practical effects for the show are pretty glorious.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 02:44
|
|
|
El Murguista posted:I never understood why so many people here disliked Michonne in the first place, even in the previous season she was essentially the uber goon. And how long do you think most goons would last in the zombie apocalypse? I dunno, she's just not a good character to begin with and was poorly written on top of that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 02:55
|
|
|
El Murguista posted:I never understood why so many people here disliked Michonne You answered your own question here. Michonne started out as the tropiest of 1 dimensional characters.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 03:13
|
|
|
I mean I know they didn't explain exactly why Michonne was crying in this episode, but isn't it obvious to anyone who has watched a show or a film that it's hinting at her possible backstory that is to be revealed? I'm kind of hoping they employ the use of a flashback. They should do more of them anyways because flashback storytelling is awesome 
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 03:29
|
|
|
I'm looking forward to hearing her tragic backstory involving a trench coat and anime wallscrolls.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 03:31
|
|
|
radlum posted:That's pretty much my point. So far, it seems that, besides 28 Days Later, the only way to make this kind of fiction work is to have dumb characters (or someone actively working against the characters), otherwise, it would be boring. This is a fallacy. The best horror comes from the situation (and, normally ignorance0, and not the characters' stupidity. Halloween, The Thing, Alien, The Blob remake, Predator (kind of crosses over into horror a bit, at least in structure, if not tone), Psycho, Dawn of the Dead 2004 (outside of the dog sequence), Nightmare on Elm Street 1/3, The Shining, Jaws, Invasion of the Body Snatchers....even stuff that's just ok or not that good like The Ruins tend to actually BENEFIT from having competent characters just done in by their situation as opposed to their stupidity. Characters dying from being idiots isn't a trope of horror, it's a trope of dumbed down horror sequels and ripoffs. Most of the top movies/stories in the genre typically deal with competent or even extremely competent characters, especially if you throw in books like IT and such into the equation. The showrunner actually seems to "get it" this season, surprisingly. Yes, there are really dumb things once you think about it (why wouldn't most of people's time be spent reinforcing the fence and clearing zombies 24-7 in shifts!?), but the thrust, so far, of this season is that the show finally seems to realize that zombies aren't the major threat - being in an apocalyptic situation is, with zombies just being one more nuisance/danger along the way. Focusing on other problems with "oh and zombies" in the background is the correct way to do this type of relative non-threat to avoid everything being about characters walking into zombies' mouths.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 03:34
|
|
|
El Murguista posted:I never understood why so many people here disliked Michonne in the first place, even in the previous season she was essentially the uber goon. Because for at least three quarters of season 3 her character consisted of "Break stuff, say nothing, stare daggers at people." It got almost parody level and she could have avoided SO many problems with like three, four loving words tops. Then a good writer got ahold of her at some point and now she's fine, going on my long list of "characters that start out awful but got awesome" which also includes Carl & Herschel. The pouty kid is always annoying and Carl dropped that real fast, and Herschel woke the gently caress up and went from a guy who should be pitching Quaker Oats to country-badass. Hell, even characters that were just on my "Eh, I don't really care" list like Carol have become central now. They also fixed Laurie & Andrea by killing them off, because they also know when to do write-offs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 03:35
|
|
The very best part of the Michonne/baby scene was Judith's face when she stopped crying (and Michonne started). She was like, well, this just got weird. Her post-apocalypse baby toys being red solo cups was cute too.I really liked this episode. Rick having to give up his farming was well done, I think they conveyed what they wanted with his scenes - not mourning the loss of the pigs but of a failed lifestyle. I am interested to see if he can find a middle ground between Rick the Farmer Who Doesn't Carry a Gun and the Ricktator.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 03:36
|
|
|
Darko posted:This is a fallacy. The best horror comes from the situation (and, normally ignorance0, and not the characters' stupidity. You know another one I'd add to that list, oddly enough? The original Evil Dead. Despite being the mother of all cliches (cabin in the woods, teenagers getting blasted) and they do some dumb things at the start, once the poo poo hits the fan and they really realize there's something evil there they freak out but nobody does anything overtly dumb. You could argue the initial girl that gets changed was being stupid, but can you really fault a character for not expecting evil trees? While it got amped way up in the sequel, the fact that the characters immediately try to obtain weapons and defend themselves instead of just running around screaming was a nice change of pace too. Man that remake was comparative poo poo. hollylolly posted:The very best part of the Michonne/baby scene was Judith's face when she stopped crying (and Michonne started). She was like, well, this just got weird. The irony being Herschel, previous pacifist farmer, is even telling Rick to start carrying a gun.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 03:40
|
|
|
Darko posted:This is a fallacy. The best horror comes from the situation (and, normally ignorance0, and not the characters' stupidity. You really hit the nail on the head with that. The reason zombie fiction remains so popular is its an easy escapist fantasy; you don't need to be very competent or prepared to survive that. It's easy to look at it and go "I could handle that I'm smarter than these people". Nobody talks about their Predator plan, Xenomorph plan, or whatever because you're just pretty well hosed in those situations. Most of those movies you mentioned are more immediately terrifying if you think about being placed in that same situation. The Walking Dead universe is more about having to make terrible decisions or running out of food, catching a disease, or getting killed by looters/marauders; basically problems people in 3rd world countries face daily. The Road was considerably more disturbing to me because there was no hope of things getting better, Walking Dead still presents a universe where humanity could come back. SinistralRifleman fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Oct 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 04:41
|
|
|
SinistralRifleman posted:Nobody talks about their Predator plan, Xenomorph plan, or whatever because you're just pretty well hosed in those situations. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 04:52
|
|
|
Blazing Ownager posted:You know another one I'd add to that list, oddly enough? The original Evil Dead. Despite being the mother of all cliches (cabin in the woods, teenagers getting blasted) and they do some dumb things at the start, once the poo poo hits the fan and they really realize there's something evil there they freak out but nobody does anything overtly dumb. You could argue the initial girl that gets changed was being stupid, but can you really fault a character for not expecting evil trees? Yeah, what makes horror terrifying in the past for me (and why I never really found slow zombies scary, but more of a "interesting situation") is the idea that, if I was thrown in a similar situation, I'd be hosed. You go to that Cabin and some idiot reads the book alive, you're hosed. Snowed in at the Overlook, I'm hosed. The Thing lands anywhere but Antarctica - the whole planet is screwed. That's scary, the idea that if I'm in the situation, I'm screwed. Speaking of sequels, the degradation normally begins in the first sequel. I was watching the Halloween marathon on AMC tonight, and the drop in quality from 1 to 2 was ridiculous. In 1, it was just a group of friends that got caught in a situation they didn't even know they were in, and being ambushed by the personification of evil. In 2, the conceit started as such, and then relied on a main character that couldn't even walk, and a town completely devoid of actual police and a hospital with literally 7 people in the entire hospital (what the hell)? Same with the prequel for The Thing - it actually made the CREATURE much dumber, just to have a movie. Even Night to Dawn had everyone as completely brain dead as opposed to just not getting along and knowing what was going on. Stuff like Walking Dead, I find the same as something like The Stand. It becomes "what would I do as one of the last people on earth because of a disaster" - and, while I would probably fail, when characters go outside of even basic things I'd even attempt just to provide cheap "horror," it always takes me out of it. However, like I said, this season seems to be focusing more on broad survival, which does a lot better of a job at holding my interest. More "we need fresh water and have to risk our lives to get it" and less "we just aren't going to bother to proactively protect ourselves at all."
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 05:01
|
|
|
Why didn't Carl get his silencer back too? That's just reckless Rick. I feel like a lot of the first two episodes is telegraphed and we are waiting for the main arc to start in episode six after they decide to leave the prison.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 05:06
|
|
|
Darko posted:This is a fallacy. The best horror comes from the situation (and, normally ignorance0, and not the characters' stupidity. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but even if somebody believes the opposite of this we can all at least agree that neither one benefits from something being so stupid it makes you immediately think of how you're watching a poorly planned out TV show. As soon as the guy gets his throat bit you just knew exactly that the only reason it happened is because they wanted to get from A to C without bothering to set up a B. The show does it a lot but this is really the first time where I felt it was actively insulting the viewers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 05:16
|
|
|
E.Nigma posted:My Predator plan is simple. It won't attack me if I'm not armed. Predator will only engage you if he finds you worthy of challenge, so just cry and poop yourself and crawl into the fetal position like you'd usually do when faced with confrontation and you'll be okay.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 05:17
|
|
|
Midnight City posted:I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but even if somebody believes the opposite of this we can all at least agree that neither one benefits from something being so stupid it makes you immediately think of how you're watching a poorly planned out TV show. They at least TRIED to do the "how can a zombie invasion start in a small enclosed space when the first person who screams would alert everyone" by having the zombie go for the actual kill and cut off the actual scream. But, yeah, it was a little TOO transparent for me, too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 05:24
|
|
|
Darko posted:
I think you're on your own there, Halloween II is fairly well regarded even if it's not quite as good as the first one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 05:44
|
|
|
TOOT BOOT posted:I think you're on your own there, Halloween II is fairly well regarded even if it's not quite as good as the first one. Only by horror genre fans, and that's only because of the Jason-ripoff kills and there was no crying Michael or Busta Rhymes dropkicking him. The original was and is known as a great film, and the sequel is "make him more like Jason" cash-in, that completely misses the subtext and appeal of the original (see the addition of her being his sister, which misses the entire point), and is as inferior to the first as any Friday the 13th/The Burning/other slashers that followed what Halloween and TCM kind of got the ball rolling on. Contemporary reviews basically said that: http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/halloween-ii-1981 edit: haha, and yes, he does state the same thing I said: Roger Ebert posted:The plot of “Halloween II” absolutely depends, of course, on our old friend the Idiot Plot which requires that everyone in the movie behave at all times like an idiot. That's necessary because if anyone were to use common sense, the problem would be solved and the movie would be over.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 05:51
|
|
|
Darko posted:Only by horror genre fans, I trust the opinions of horror fans when it comes to horror movies, especially given the fact that the genre doesn't get much respect in mainstream circles. I particularly wouldn't take Ebert's opinion on Slasher movies terribly seriously considering the big fat poo poo he and Siskel took on the subgenre in the early 80s, trying to shame actors and directors into not making them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 06:15
|
|
|
Blazing Ownager posted:
What happened? I missed this and nothing beats a good drama
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 08:26
|
|
|
Jut posted:What happened? I missed this and nothing beats a good drama Check the TV IV couch and/or last few pages of the Star Trek thread. Don't be drinking anything or you'll totally do a spit-take.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 08:31
|
|
|
Jut posted:What happened? I missed this and nothing beats a good drama He raped an 8 year old when he was 16-24, he probated somebody yesterday who had the sleuthing skills required to literally google search his name and see it on the first page of results.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 08:33
|
|
Gah, can we go back to arguing about the logic of a zombie apocalypse TV show?  Actually can someone post a screenshot of Michonne crying over Judith while the baby is going  ?
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 08:37
|
|
|
hollylolly posted:Actually can someone post a screenshot of Michonne crying over Judith while the baby is going Easily one of the most confused baby actors I've ever seen, but it worked perfectly for the scene. TOOT BOOT posted:I trust the opinions of horror fans when it comes to horror movies, especially given the fact that the genre doesn't get much respect in mainstream circles. One of the reasons I couldn't dislike the guy even when I disagreed with him is because he's one of the few reviewers who actually admitted mistakes and openly changed opinions on stuff later on. I think the funniest review for me is the one where he literally rated Aliens fairly low because it was "too intense to be enjoyable." I honestly believe if Ebert stayed alive for another decade he'd changed his opinion on video games, too. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Oct 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 08:52
|
|
|
Midnight City posted:He raped an 8 year old when he was 16-24, he probated somebody yesterday who had the sleuthing skills required to literally google search his name and see it on the first page of results. Gah I wish I never asked after seeing the Something Sensitive Doxx... Anyway back to TWD, I'm glad the show seems to be getting much better than previous seasons, I just wish the threat came from the zombies or something else instead of either a) Stupid characters, or b) magic plot devices. They need to sell the threat to us as they managed to do in the 1st episode of the show.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 08:55
|
|
|
Jut posted:Anyway back to TWD, I'm glad the show seems to be getting much better than previous seasons, I just wish the threat came from the zombies or something else instead of either a) Stupid characters, or b) magic plot devices. It's not a major complaint but I'd really like to see more of the day-to-day life of all the red shirts, at least to some degree. I could buy them getting sloppy if they had dedicated some time to showing them exhausted from the non-stop work of survival in that situation. The way things are shot I sometimes feel like that a few of the major characters are out hunting/salvaging, and sometimes they go on a big group-raid, but other than that ninety percent of the people living in the prison just mill about and chat all day. I'm pretty sure in the real world even the elderly and children would be having active domestic tasks and anymore more able bodied should be on non-stop gate clearing duty. Again, this is just the impression you get from the way things are shot. PS: Whoever pointed out the little girl screaming "I FORGOT EVERYTHING YOU TAUGHT ME!" in the panic scene, good job - I didn't notice it on a first viewing but laughed my rear end off on a 2nd. It was such a great moment, both amusing and genuine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 09:01
|
|
|
Whoever is luring the zombies at the fences doesn't make any sort of sense that I can deduce. Unless it's some sort of kamikaze suicide attempt how does slowly losing the fences help you at all? It's not like there's a timer that counts down to when they finally make it over, it could have come down while he/she was sleeping, taking a poo poo, who knows. Getting everyone killed like that wouldn't accomplish much, you'd be there alone and they showed last season that it takes a lot more than just a few people to take the prison. I really hope there's some legitimate plan that's going to make sense.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 09:19
|
|
|
Babe Magnet posted:Predator will only engage you if he finds you worthy of challenge, so just cry and poop yourself and crawl into the fetal position like you'd usually do when faced with confrontation and you'll be okay. Unless it's a Bad Blood uber nerd Predator. The one that kills it's own kind, and pregnant women. It even got it's own comic series for a while. Hurray!
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 09:22
|
|
|
Midnight City posted:Whoever is luring the zombies at the fences doesn't make any sort of sense that I can deduce. Unless it's some sort of kamikaze suicide attempt how does slowly losing the fences help you at all? I think it's pretty safe to say that the person luring the zombies to the fences is the girl who considers them 'pets' and who was so distraught at "Nick's" passing. Even her little sister confessed she was nuts. But even I have to admit that it's pretty implausible that a preteen girl was able to get outside inside the inner fenceline without anyone noticing long enough for her to shove a rat into Nick's mouth. Blazing Ownager posted:Check the TV IV couch and/or last few pages of the Star Trek thread. Don't be drinking anything or you'll totally do a spit-take. I hadn't watched the episode until a few hours ago, but I figured there *HAD* to be a reason that in the short time before it aired and the time I checked TVIV after, seeing 425 new messages meant I'd better not open the thread for fear of spoilers...or something major had gone down. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Oct 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 10:14
|
|
|
The Human Crouton posted:If the makers of this show cared, then yes, they could have done that. I thought they were debating on doing away with the livestock at the beginning of the episode kinda sorta because of the disease exchanging. This was kind of a kill two birds one stone deal. Though if the fence team had actually been out there doing their job, this likely wouldn't have happened anyways Hollis posted:Well we still haven't had a ominous character show up yet. So as soon as that happens we'll know. Oh look, it's the new "Who turned the alarms on" of the season Blazing Ownager posted:Seriously I've said it before but if the Gov flipped out in the tombs because people wouldn't leave a zombie-infested, tightly packed hallway to get shot, and shot them there (where they'd be jammed in like sardines) it would have made so, so much more sense. But he didn't flip out there. Where he snapped was when he stopped them and they argued and refused to go back, that's when he snapped and wasted them. Up till that point he was going to try attacking again. If you're gonna slam the writers over it, at least have the damned poo poo right before you do Darko posted:They at least TRIED to do the "how can a zombie invasion start in a small enclosed space when the first person who screams would alert everyone" by having the zombie go for the actual kill and cut off the actual scream. But, yeah, it was a little TOO transparent for me, too. I dunno, it's not entirely unbelievable seeing that the neck and head were the exposed flesh. It might just be when you're still they go for places they know are alive like flesh vs tearing through clothing/blankets/what have you. SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Oct 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 11:39
|
|
|
SocketWrench posted:But he didn't flip out there. Where he snapped was when he stopped them and they argued and refused to go back, that's when he snapped and wasted them. Up till that point he was going to try attacking again. I know he didn't flip out there. I'm saying that would have made INFINITELY more sense if he had. In otherwords: Scenario A (What happened in the show): - Gov Attacks - A-Team Violence begins (Everyone purposely missing everyone) - People freak out and run away with exactly one casualty, thanks to Carl - People refuse to go back in a big open road spread out - Gov manages to one handedly kill everybody and goes "Welp!" and wanders off, with his guards not doing anything about him going insane - Our four heroes set off to assault an entire town to their knowledge, leaving behind several key fighters. - They find the massacre. Scenario B (What I was talking about) - Gov Attacks - When the Woodsbury people make it out of the tombs they lose a couple getting gunned down by Glenn & Maggie - They begin refusing to leave the Tombs, which are infested with zombies behind them - The Gov can't make them move out, and is getting overrun from behind, so says gently caress it and blasts them all, in a close quarter hallway - The Gov and his guards run the hell off, Rick's group finds the lone survivor and realizes what happens - Our four heroes set off what they now know to be just three people. My whole point was moving his freak out to "while under fire in the battle scene" would have been a thousand times more logical than just having him kill his entire armed army single handed in a calm open road. It would have made his retreat make far more sense and generally fixed the whole thing, in my opinion. They could have played the scene almost identically, but by moving the events, it clears up the vast majority of plot holes and silliness caused by the order they did it in. (Yes, I count Rick & three buddies assaulting what they thought was 30+ people that they just went out of their way not to kill, just scare, with no knowledge at all of what happened on the road as a gaping, massive plot hole.) What we got felt like a bunch of tourists got ran through a haunted house, scared a bit, and then immediately started pulling a Monty Python esque RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY! I don't know, I think it'd been far more dramatic on top of more logical if he had just killed them when they refused to listen to the attack orders, instead of the way he did. It'd even given them more reason to trust the Woodsbury people, given they just watched so many get gunned down by their enemy. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Oct 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 14:09
|
|
|
Jesto posted:Was there some legitimate reason I missed as to how enough time could pass that a large swarm of zombies could form on the fence to pose any legitimate danger to the prison, in the last episode or this one? Here's the thing though, this episode takes place literally the next day after episode 1, the episode where they realize that the walker build-up is starting to become a problem. It's implied that up to that point scheduling a certain time of day for a team to go and clear them out has been working fine, but they recognize that they will need to do something to make things more manageable soon. The very next morning starts off with zombies inside the cell blocks, a bunch of people dying, the realization of a deadly illness spreading and the necessary clean-up of those problems. The entire groups' minds are not on the daily fence clearing chore because they're trying to resolve what they feel are more pressing concerns based on their previous experience. If it was a "three weeks later" kind of deal and they still hadn't done poo poo about the fence walkers, I could understand the complaint. They very likely thought they had at least a few days to work out a solution because they didn't know that a zombie outbreak inside the prison the very next day and the noise of the resulting panic and gunfire would cause a surge that takes the problem from "manageable but worrisome" to "oh poo poo we're hosed."
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 14:40
|
|
|
Do you guys remember how big the zombie herd had grown before breaking through that flimsy wooden fence, the last or second to last episode of season 2? Zombies must have gotten much stronger if only 3 to 4 rows manage to push over a prison fence. Also we were right about that bloodshot eyed zombie that Rick spotted, he did mention it in the episode. What I do wonder is where did that zombie come from and die? It would be reasonable to assume that particular zombie only died "recently" (as in the past month or two) so there might still be plenty of other human settlements.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 14:56
|
|
|
One small thing I've really enjoyed in these two episodes is that they haven't felt the need to tell us why Carol is so adamant that the kids be trained about safety. It feels like that the season 2 version of the writers room would have had her talking about Sophia at least 4 times by now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 15:01
|
|
|
VDay posted:Survivors being bad at actually surviving or not setting up optimal defenses is just one of those zombie fiction tropes that you have to accept and move on. They're never going to do everything that seems logical to the viewers because anything that makes them completely safe would make for a boring TV show. Of course that doesn't excuse all the times a character has done something especially stupid/careless, but it's still a pretty big necessity for this type of zombie show. True, but the showrunner on the 1st talking dead this season made the point about how the characters 'did everything right' raiding the store, but still got hosed up by bad luck, the weak ceiling and raining zombies. That I liked, I want to see more of that. I'd like to see 'drama' of them arguing about what defense works, trying it out, and then adjusting it. I really don't care about who is hooking up with who, since the only 'drama' is 'when is one of the two going to die and then the other will be sad/upset/neutral about it'.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 15:13
|
|
|
rypakal posted:One small thing I've really enjoyed in these two episodes is that they haven't felt the need to tell us why Carol is so adamant that the kids be trained about safety. It feels like that the season 2 version of the writers room would have had her talking about Sophia at least 4 times by now. Deep in her heart Carol knows that Rick will go through them one by one, because he is the best at shooting little girls in the face.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 15:15
|
|
|
Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Here's the thing though, this episode takes place literally the next day after episode 1, the episode where they realize that the walker build-up is starting to become a problem. It's implied that up to that point scheduling a certain time of day for a team to go and clear them out has been working fine, but they recognize that they will need to do something to make things more manageable soon. This is spot-on, I think that the week gap between shows really fucks with people's internal timeline of what's happening in the show. On my rewatch of Season 2 the Sophia thing didn't bother me at all, since if you watch those episodes in continuity it's clear that the first half of season 2 happens over the course of like a week or a week and a half. It's not like in real life where the search for Sophia took two or three months to play out. There is an internal logic and consistency to the show, it's just unfortunate that the crisis-oriented nature of the show's situation combined with the timing of the show itself makes it difficult to get a firm grasp on timing for viewers.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 15:49
|
|
|
The above post exactly reflects why I *try* not to watch any shows anymore until the whole season has aired. Unfortunately I fail far too often. (on the bright side, I do have a two season Homeland Marathon scheduled for my next weekend off, yay)
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 15:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 13:56 |
|
|
TemetNosceXVIcubus posted:Deep in her heart Carol knows that Rick will go through them one by one, because he is the best at shooting little girls in the face. I cringed a bit when the dad asked Carol to look after his daughters like they were her own...
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2013 16:00
|
|
