|
Pompous Rhombus posted:Japan's toxic culture of masculinity How does this manifest itself? Is there somewhere I can read about this?
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 07:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 21:08 |
|
|
Paper Mac posted:How does this manifest itself? Is there somewhere I can read about this? edit: to put it in perspective, it was just half a generation ago that rape became an actual crime in Papua New Guinea. Before that it was just considered stealing, from the girl's father or husband. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Oct 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 07:56
|
|
|
I guess I've only ever known Japanese men in professional contexts and I didn't really get the impression that they had anything overt like macho culture, so I'm wondering how it affects men as much as how it affects women. There are definitely different hegemonic masculinities in East Asia vs Anglo-American, or South American, etc, but I don't really know anything about the way men behave toward each other and toward women in Japan.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 08:18
|
|
|
The way I see it manifest the most is assuming that women don't want to work and just want to sit around the house eating bon bons all day while their husbands work. It might seem mundane compared to the PNG thing I mentioned before but it's seriously loving them economically. Not to mention making women feel like they aren't worth anything outside of the home. edit: "being a girl is easy mode for life" is something I have seriously read many times online. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Oct 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 08:21
|
|
|
Most people can only get a partial salary during maternity/paternity leave so generally it makes sense for the parent with lower income to stay home, which is usually the mother. Some people do it consecutively, like six months each, so at least one person is bringing in a full income. If the mother doesn't work at all it's a pretty big financial risk for the father to take more than a few weeks off.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 08:41
|
|
|
Sheep posted:Japan has participated in plenty of international treaties with start dates other than April 1st. I found five in just the first two pages of results. Dude, you're approaching debito-levels of paranoia/hatred with an argument like that. Stringent posted:Oh, the date that [virtually] everything new starts here? Wowzers. vvvvvvvvvvv The upper one Weatherman fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Oct 24, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 12:19
|
|
|
Weatherman posted:Dude, you're approaching debito-levels of paranoia/hatred with an argument like that. Which quote here are you referring to?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 12:42
|
|
|
Paper Mac posted:I guess I've only ever known Japanese men in professional contexts and I didn't really get the impression that they had anything overt like macho culture, so I'm wondering how it affects men as much as how it affects women. There are definitely different hegemonic masculinities in East Asia vs Anglo-American, or South American, etc, but I don't really know anything about the way men behave toward each other and toward women in Japan. It's not a machismo thing like men have to act tough all the time (although men are supposed to be stoic), I actually think the definition of masculinity is much wider in Japan than say the US. I think a large amount of the difficulty in being a man is respecting the pecking order, and women always seem to be lower there, too. Women are really relegated to the shadows. If you get married, it is expected you'll have a baby and quit. It is hard enough to climb the corporate ladder in Japan as a woman, but it is basically impossible as a married woman. The number of women in executive positions and in politics is embarrassingly low.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 12:58
|
|
|
Paper Mac posted:How does this manifest itself? Is there somewhere I can read about this? Do a Google on Yukio Mishima if you wanna see how deep that rabbit hole can get.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 13:02
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:Well, you could just replace "Japan" with almost any culture and it would be the same to some extent. It's something the world has only just begun to get over, and Japan is far from the leading edge of it. Again, despite the law saying it should be illegal, the reality in Japan is a bit different. quote:The relationship between victim and offender also influences whether someone is considered a true victim; although the wording of current Japanese law makes no mention of the relationship between victim and attacker, judges tend not to convict husbands of raping their wives as the belief persists that a husband has a right to sex with his wife (Burns, 2005: 7, 51, 129; Kainō, 1997: 299; Kinjo, 1986: 203).
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 13:09
|
|
|
Paper Mac posted:How does this manifest itself? Is there somewhere I can read about this? A pretty interesting case study of this can be seen with the Crown Princess of Japan, Masako. In a lot of other countries, she would be a diplomat to a major power, a cabinet member or possible Prime Minister. Think Condalisa Rice, except without having made the mistake of working for George W. Bush. In Japan she was allegedly pressured into accepting the Prince's marriage proposal, and she is now a housewife in the royal family. My wife was so furious about it at the time, as it really represents a lot of the problems women face in Japan. No matter how talented, brilliant or ambitious you are in Japan, if you are a woman you should be a housewife.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 17:46
|
|
|
Yeah, I heard about the make-up of the royal family from my Japanese prof at the time, around when they were having a succession crisis because Masako had no sons (which had driven her into a horrible depression). I couldn't figure out to what degree she chose to give up being a diplomat, and to what degree it was chosen for her as soon as she married the prince. Or maybe she didn't even have a choice about marrying the prince? When a representative of the royal family comes to you and says one of their members wants to marry you, can you say no?
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 17:52
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:Yeah, I heard about the make-up of the royal family from my Japanese prof at the time, around when they were having a succession crisis because Masako had no sons (which had driven her into a horrible depression). I couldn't figure out to what degree she chose to give up being a diplomat, and to what degree it was chosen for her as soon as she married the prince. Or maybe she didn't even have a choice about marrying the prince? When a representative of the royal family comes to you and says one of their members wants to marry you, can you say no? She did reject it twice. My wife made it sound like the royal family pressured the government, who quietly told her to accept the proposal as she no longer had any career prospects. And since she was barred from government service by law after she married, she really didn't.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 18:14
|
|
|
ocrumsprug posted:She did reject it twice. My wife made it sound like the royal family pressured the government, who quietly told her to accept the proposal as she no longer had any career prospects. And since she was barred from government service by law after she married, she really didn't. After she married a prince or after she married, period? Because if its the latter... 
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 18:20
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:After she married a prince or after she married, period? Because if its the latter...
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 18:23
|
|
|
Sounds like she can't go outside without permission, much less hold a diplomatic position:wikipedia posted:The Agency has been portrayed as controlling every aspect of the lives of the members of the Imperial Family, both public and private, and exerting near-total control over them, from staff appointments to wardrobe selection. As with the imperial family itself, positions in the 1300-year-old Agency are hereditary. Nine out of ten requests from the imperial family, even the Emperor himself, are rejected. Masako, for instance, was denied browsing a bookstore, visiting her family, or calling her old college friends around the world or even going out for a cup of coffee.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 18:24
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:After she married a prince or after she married, period? Because if its the latter... The royal family is not allowed to participate in governance if I understand it correctly, so the former. However for all intents and purposes, it may as well be the latter in Japan.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 18:27
|
|
|
I'm not even sure how many young Japanese people even know about the royal family. Just the other day I brought it up in my ESL class which is about a third Japanese, and got blank stares from pretty much everyone, including them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 24, 2013 18:28
|
|
|
A new study puts Japan (and Korea) basically at the bottom of the developed world for women's equality in economics opportunity, and have been going steadily downward. Because I hate myself I went over to 2ch to see what they were saying and one of the first posts was "well women don't WANT to work more so what can we do?" Japan...sometimes I think you're beyond help in this area.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 18:15
|
|
|
Reverend Cheddar posted:Do a Google on Yukio Mishima if you wanna see how deep that rabbit hole can get. I thought about this for a bit because I actually read all of Mishima's stuff when I was 15 or something and I'd never connected his ultranationalism to his masculinity. It seems a bit complicated by his sexuality, and I don't know his work well enough to speak with any kind of authority, but I guess I can kind of see it. My memory of his writing is that his male-female relationships were kind of stilted and frosty (as opposed to his homosocial/sexual relationships which were extremely lively and passionate)- I'd just kind of ascribed that to his lived experience. Now I'm remembering a particularly odd scene in one of them where the main character is spying on a soldier going off to war, and his wife or girlfriend or something is serving him tea with her breastmilk or something, so I guess I had missed the interplay of nationalist with sexual themes in his work when I was a kid.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 18:42
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:A new study puts Japan (and Korea) basically at the bottom of the developed world for women's equality in economics opportunity, and have been going steadily downward. Because I hate myself I went over to 2ch to see what they were saying and one of the first posts was "well women don't WANT to work more so what can we do?" Its the strangest thing, you give these women who have university degrees very simple tasks like making tea and filing documents and they don't want to work hard. Completely inexplicable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 18:58
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:A new study puts Japan (and Korea) basically at the bottom of the developed world for women's equality in economics opportunity, and have been going steadily downward. Because I hate myself I went over to 2ch to see what they were saying and one of the first posts was "well women don't WANT to work more so what can we do?" I do actually think there is something to be said about many women not wanting to work. A lot of Japanese women are pretty forthright about just wanting to be housewives, but it's a chicken and egg thing because even if they work the chance they'll rise to any notable position regardless of how hard they work is almost nil. The problem is that there's basically no organized women's rights movement in Japan, which is drat shame, especially considering that there are women's rights groups in other places that Japanese women could learn from, and then take that experience back to Japan. But no one ever seems to.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 02:09
|
|
|
LimburgLimbo posted:I do actually think there is something to be said about many women not wanting to work. A lot of Japanese women are pretty forthright about just wanting to be housewives, but it's a chicken and egg thing because even if they work the chance they'll rise to any notable position regardless of how hard they work is almost nil.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 02:14
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:Naw, the way I see it it's because Japanese society doesn't expect anything more from them, and that's something governments can definitely do something about if they are properly motivated. You'd think being in a recession for like 20 years would make them realize that they could do so much better if they used more than 50% of their population economically. Why would I think that when they aren't using the 50% they are employing?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 02:16
|
|
|
Stringent posted:Why would I think that when they aren't using the 50% they are employing?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 02:18
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:Naw, the way I see it it's because Japanese society doesn't expect anything more from them, and that's something governments can definitely do something about if they are properly motivated. You'd think being in a recession for like 20 years would make them realize that they could do so much better if they used more than 50% of their population economically. While I was searching for jobs (就活) last year there was definitely a major push to increase female workers, and a lot of companies are actually hiring more women, also Abe's talking about it, etc. It's basically the same story as a lot of things in Japan; on paper they're actually improving things or making steps in the right direction, but society and its attitudes aren't following suit and basically negating any reforms made. Long story short Japanese social reform is basically cargo cult bullshit where they tweak some laws and make some announcements and say they're done, while in the meantime almost nobody in the populace really understands or takes to heart the ideas behind reforms.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 02:19
|
|
|
ArchangeI posted:Its the strangest thing, you give these women who have university degrees very simple tasks like making tea and filing documents and they don't want to work hard. Completely inexplicable. Yeah, but especially here, that degree is very likely to only be on paper or something. Most schools that don't get prestige (the vast majority) don't exactly have the same educational standards. And if you get a degree from a women's college, a lot of the time they're pretty much just charm schools that teach you how to be a housewife. I think I saw recently that Japan's had quite the uptick in attendance for vocational schools though, which is a good sign to me of younger generations wanting actual skills, which puts them at much less risk of being an office flunky. I do have an anecdote that kind of sums up Japan's corporate sexism though. I did some contract work for a company that makes products for breastfeeding mothers. Out of morbid curiosity--or more like, I knew what I was going to find, I just wanted to see how bad it would get--I looked up the CEO and the management. The CEO was this bald old guy whose statement like 'we understand breastfeeding more than anyone else in Japan' and the entire board was men. I mean, geez, you'd think a country so invested in  would have at least one woman who knows what it's all about on there. Probably too busy breastfeeding, my bad. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 03:12
|
|
|
LimburgLimbo posted:While I was searching for jobs (就活) last year there was definitely a major push to increase female workers, and a lot of companies are actually hiring more women, also Abe's talking about it, etc.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 03:14
|
|
|
Reverend Cheddar posted:I think I saw recently that Japan's had quite the uptick in attendance for vocational schools though, which is a good sign to me of younger generations wanting actual skills, which puts them at much less risk of being an office flunky. Sorry, I'm actually mixing up 短大 and 専門学校 here so it might not be appicable. Though sometimes they're put together in data that I've seen. Where did you hear of that uptick? Samurai Sanders posted:Oh, I hadn't heard that Abe said anything about women. I thought their government was committed to doing absolutely nothing on the subject. Yeah, Abe and his government at least realize the issue and if nothing else are giving lip service to making change (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303759604579091680931293404). Whether it will come to anything, or just be some half assed government moves that don't actually filter down to society is another issue. Edit: Also, I was trying to look for some of the data on women and men in vocational schools and came across the government's site with all kinds of data on gender equality, for those interested. http://www.gender.go.jp/english_contents/pr_act/pub/pamphlet/women-and-men12/index.html LimburgLimbo fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 26, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 03:34
|
|
|
LimburgLimbo posted:Yeah, Abe and his government at least realize the issue and if nothing else are giving lip service to making change (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303759604579091680931293404). Whether it will come to anything, or just be some half assed government moves that don't actually filter down to society is another issue. Oh, it's filtering down alright.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 03:40
|
|
|
LimburgLimbo posted:I do actually think there is something to be said about many women not wanting to work. A lot of Japanese women are pretty forthright about just wanting to be housewives, but it's a chicken and egg thing because even if they work the chance they'll rise to any notable position regardless of how hard they work is almost nil. It's possible that okozukai also has something to do with this.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 05:21
|
|
|
If only they could be made to understand that employees, male or female, are basically only productive for six hours a day no matter how long they are in the office. Then this whole problem would go away.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 05:25
|
|
|
Samurai Sanders posted:If only they could be made to understand that employees, male or female, are basically only productive for six hours a day no matter how long they are in the office. Then this whole problem would go away. It's a world where the Ford productivity studies never existed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 05:37
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:It's possible that okozukai also has something to do with this. What exactly do you mean?
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 05:56
|
|
|
A big problem is that women have started embracing society's low expectations of them and have aimed lower. A big get for the voice actressy and patisserie industries though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 06:14
|
|
|
hadji murad posted:A big problem is that women have started embracing society's low expectations of them and have aimed lower.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 06:15
|
|
|
who the gently caress else is going to make me sandwiches and get me tea.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 08:31
|
|
|
LimburgLimbo posted:
Guys go to vocational school too ya know! You were definitely thinking of 短大 and they are pretty much what you said, just charm schools for future housewives. I will try to find the statistic later tonight. If I saw it on TV that might be tricky to find though.
|
|
#
?
Oct 26, 2013 10:20
|
|
|
Reposting here. Somehow mixed up my threads.Kenishi posted:Day care is usually the biggest hurdle for most family that want both both parents to keep working. I wonder how many companies have thought to implement day care centers at the office, I know its common at many large companies in the US. and peanuts reply, also in the wrong thread. peanut posted:Hospitals and very large companies (like Sumitomo) often have daycare centers for employees' kids. But big cities still have more demand than spots are available. Daycares require a higher teacher-to-child ratio for classes under 3 years old.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2013 02:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 21:08 |
|
|
I heard day care in Japan costs $texas no matter how you do it, and on top of all the other ridiculous expenses of raising children there, lots of times it just can't be done.
|
|
#
?
Oct 27, 2013 02:37
|
|