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This may be a dumb question, but are there any wrestling story arcs that involve the face losing cleanly to the heel, committing to some kind of transformation or learning something new, then coming back and beating the heel (in other words, the classic hero storyline)? I ask this because people always compare wrestling to classic theater in a dramatic sense, but the story seems to always boil down to "physically and morally superior face defeats scheming heel". While this storyarc serves it's purpose in protecting the drawing appeal of the face, I'm curious how many times, if at all, bookers have deviated from that formula. I'm not talking about the current Daniel Bryan angle where he's facing odds and getting screwed by "the man" before his eventual comeuppance, or the Steve Austin corporation angle where McMahon finally was able to screw over Austin before Austin won the title back at Mania XV. In these it's clear the face/hero is superior but factors beyond his control keep him down. I'm more interested in angles where the face is presented with a glaring flaw of his own that he has to overcome to defeat the heel. A good example I can come up with would be the Sting/Hogan Starrcade 97 angle, as I recall Sting was outcast as untrustworthy before coming back and beating Hogan in a terrible fashion. Are there any examples of this kind of storytelling in wrestling? I swear I'm not high, and I know it's a very specific question. It's just something you see in movies and other forms of fiction that I can't really relate to the narrative of wrestling.
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Oct 26, 2013 04:54
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The only thing that came to mind was when John Cena was booked in a triple threat submissions match with Angle and Chris Masters as a way of screwing Cena. That was the first time he pulled out the STFU.
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Oct 26, 2013 06:11
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crankdatbatman posted:This may be a dumb question, but are there any wrestling story arcs that involve the face losing cleanly to the heel, committing to some kind of transformation or learning something new, then coming back and beating the heel (in other words, the classic hero storyline)? in ROH, there was this type of storyline with Nigel McGuinness and then-champion Takeshi Morishima. The first time he wrestled him for the title, he got his rear end handed to him. The second time, he had a few ne tricks up his sleeve, and came close, but still couldn't get the job done. Then finally on PPV, in his third attempt, he went for a more evasive and striking gameplan, and with sheer force and guts, he was able to put the monster down for a count of three and bring the title back to the States.
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Oct 26, 2013 06:34
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Mick Foley vs. Triple H fits that pattern other than the part where the hero wins.
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Oct 26, 2013 07:21
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Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I believe that Hogan vs King Kong Bundy follows that template in which Bundy wins clean over Hogan, kayfabe breaks his ribs to where Hogan had to be stretchered out. Then there were vignettes of Hogan's recovery and training (taped ribs and all) before finally overcoming Bundy in a cage match at WM2 and regaining the belt.
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Oct 26, 2013 07:29
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Hogan never cleanly lost the belt in that era. Nor was he pinned by Bundy
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Oct 26, 2013 07:33
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John Cena posted:Hogan never cleanly lost the belt in that era. Nor was he pinned by Bundy Went and refreshed myself on it: The main feud heading into WrestleMania 2 was between Hulk Hogan and King Kong Bundy, with the two battling over the WWF Championship. Although they had wrestled occasionally beforehand, their first nationally televised encounter was on the November 2, 1985, edition of Saturday Night's Main Event where Hogan teamed up with André the Giant against André's rivals Bundy and Big John Studd. Hogan and André won the match. On March 1, Hogan defended his WWF title against The Magnificent Muraco. Just as Hogan was about to pin Muraco, Bundy ran into the ring and—with Muraco's help—initiated a 2-on-1 assault on Hogan, repeatedly crushing him with his body weight (with a move called the "Avalanche") to break his ribs. Hogan had a very serious scripted injury, while Bundy (gloating over his actions) challenged Hogan for the title. With revenge on his mind, Hogan decided not to heed his doctor's advice and accepted the challenge; a match was then booked between the two in a steel cage for the WWF title. Yeah, you're totally right.  I really should've known better than to think that Hogan would lose clean in the mid-80's.
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Oct 26, 2013 07:39
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AmbassadorFriendly posted:Who are the people that still defend the Montreal Screwjob? I know Hardcore Holly defended it in his book, I assume Michaels and Triple H still think it was the right thing to do. Cornette... I'm not sure if he defends it, but he was the one who pointed out that Bret just giving the title to Vince would basically be a giant kick in the nuts to the company. AT THE SAME TIME, He says that they should have just made him drop it to Shamrock, it's just that the storyline Vince had planned had Shawn be the champion at or by survivor series, and he would not be loving denied when it came to that. And the thing was, it's not that Bret didn't just want to drop it to Shawn, with good reason because Shawn was a oval office back then. It's that Bret wouldn't even agree to go into Canada without the belt. Because again, according to Cornette Bret went "Well the PPV is booked around me being champion, so it would be bad if I wasn't going into it." Then again Cornette also claims that he was the person who first suggested screwing Bret out of the title (Though he confirms the screwjob was not his idea. Just that basically every day there was a new finish or decision.) So if THAT is true, maybe he wouldn't have even dropped it before Survivor series. On the whole though, Bret was screwed. It's just a very grey situation. And I don't think "Bret screwed Bret" I think the ego's of everyone involved basically made it head towards a screwjob, and if everyone had acted like the adults they were meant to be, it wouldn't have happened. Red posted:I have no idea what Vince had in mind as the outcome of his actions, but I can't imagine he had any idea how much the screwjob would blow up. Actually I believe it was Cornette or Shawn again who said that Vince intended to take all the heat himself. Vince insisted that Shawn continue denying any involvement and pretend he didn't know because... hell I dunno, Vince is a complicated manchild who according to everyone who has ever met him is confusing enough to drive anyone insane trying to understand exactly what his deal is. crankdatbatman posted:This may be a dumb question, but are there any wrestling story arcs that involve the face losing cleanly to the heel, committing to some kind of transformation or learning something new, then coming back and beating the heel (in other words, the classic hero storyline)? Kenta Kobashi and the Burning Hammer?
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Oct 26, 2013 08:59
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Onmi posted:Cornette... I'm not sure if he defends it, but he was the one who pointed out that Bret just giving the title to Vince would basically be a giant kick in the nuts to the company. The agreement was for Bret to hold it to I believe IYH in December. He was granted a short extension to drop the belt that way by Bischoff and everything was agreed to. Vince then tried to get him to push it up. Bret didn't want to drop it before Survivor Series because they already agreed he wouldn't. When Vince started trying to change the plan Bret started getting suspicious. That's why Vince scoffed at the initial screwjob idea of doing a fast count, he knew Bret would kick out of anything like that and then he'd beat the poo poo out of Shawn knowing he was in on it. So he had to do a finish that gave Shawn plausible deniability and wouldn't get Bret suspicious. They had an agreement for Bret to drop the drat thing. There was no risk of him bringing the belt to WCW. Vince just had to do things his way. It worked out better for him, but he was drat lucky Bret punched him or he would've been sued.
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Oct 26, 2013 09:09
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MassRafTer posted:The agreement was for Bret to hold it to I believe IYH in December. He was granted a short extension to drop the belt that way by Bischoff and everything was agreed to. Vince then tried to get him to push it up. Bret didn't want to drop it before Survivor Series because they already agreed he wouldn't. When Vince started trying to change the plan Bret started getting suspicious. That's why Vince scoffed at the initial screwjob idea of doing a fast count, he knew Bret would kick out of anything like that and then he'd beat the poo poo out of Shawn knowing he was in on it. So he had to do a finish that gave Shawn plausible deniability and wouldn't get Bret suspicious. I'm just going off the stuff here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LkvwC1wJ6g If anything about that is an apt description "The biggest goddamn clusterfuck in the history of clusterfucks" There is so loving much that went on in the WWF at the time. And seeing as Cornette was on the booking committee at the time. So when it comes to the backstage stuff I tend to believe him on it.
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Oct 26, 2013 09:18
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Onmi posted:I'm just going off the stuff here Cornette had very little to do with the negotiations which were mostly between Hart, McMahon and Michaels with HHH playing a role whispering in HBK's ear. We have a very good sequence of events based on Hart's conversations with Meltzer, the full Montreal transcript and what we've heard from WWE as their story has evolved. The sequence of events went as such: McMahon goes to Bret, tells him he cannot afford his contract and to go negotiate with WCW. Asks him to lose to Michaels in Montreal. Bret refuses knowing his creative control will kick in thanks to the contract breach, goes to WCW. McMahon sees PPV revenue turning around thanks to the IYH price increase, tells Bret he can stay as the #3 star behind Michaels and Austin. Bret realizes he can't trust Vince won't breach his contract later and takes the WCW offer. Vince proposes numerous scenarios to get Bret to lose in Montreal including a Hart Foundation heel turn, Bret refuses. Vince tells Bret HBK will lose clean in Montreal, then a few days later reports back that he won't. We now know HHH is the guy who got in HBK's ear and told him not to do that job. An agreement is struck with Bret and WCW to have Bret lose the title in December at IYH after his WCW deal technically kicked in. HBK will pin either Undertaker or Shamrock to win the belt. Montreal will end in a DQ. Vince asks Bret to lose the belt at a house show the night before Montreal, he refuses thinking this will look really bad to the fans who were sold a show with him defending the belt. Private screwjob planning begins with Vince, his inner circle, HBK, HHH and Hebner. Bret refuses to job to Austin in a six man in Canada, Vince tries to create a rift between Austin and Hart because of it, and an incident the next day where Bret is booked to do the job but then never asked to do it. Bret goes to Vince and they have their tape recorded conversation to do a schmoz and then vacate the belt the next night because "everybody knows." Cornette basically admits he didn't know what the plan was. Shamrock was one of the people Bret was willing to drop it to so it's not really surprising Cornette would suggest that, or that everything was discussed, we already knew that. But by the time it was suggested to Bret that he drop the belt before Montreal he had no reason to trust Vince or to think this was a good idea.
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Oct 26, 2013 09:46
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canada jezus posted:Is it weird that my first thought about this post was, "Oh i hope i can find the observer podcast on this." I hope not because that was mine as well.
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Oct 26, 2013 15:28
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In kayfabe reasoning, why is a wrist-clutch version of a move more effective than the basic version?
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Oct 26, 2013 15:47
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I always assumed it was so the guy taking the move couldn't use his arm to protect himself. Or something.
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Oct 26, 2013 16:07
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Solomonic posted:In kayfabe reasoning, why is a wrist-clutch version of a move more effective than the basic version? The only one I can justify is the Rainmaker, because Okada uses the wrist-clutch to pull the target INTO the lariat, as well as stepping forward. And in wrestling logic, this makes it twice as powerful.
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Oct 26, 2013 16:46
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MassRafTer posted:Cornette had very little to do with the negotiations which were mostly between Hart, McMahon and Michaels with HHH playing a role whispering in HBK's ear. We have a very good sequence of events based on Hart's conversations with Meltzer, the full Montreal transcript and what we've heard from WWE as their story has evolved. The sequence of events went as such: Cornette's really thorough with his history stuff, I watched a timeline with him (1997?) and he has the book there in front of him with all his notes, gate, merchandise and everything. One thing that I always wondered is if Brett somehow found out about the screw job before the match, would he most likely just not go to the ring or would he wrestle and not put himself in a vulnerable position and shoot on Michaels?
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Oct 26, 2013 17:18
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Remember in the Montreal discussions that Bret was perfectly willing to lose the title the week after Survivor Series to anyone - including Michaels - at any show in November after Survivor Series, and Bret was still under contract for the rest of the month. So the idea that Vince just had to take the title off Bret that night is patently absurd.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:23
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Yeah, it's established, even from third-party sources, that Bret explicitly said "I will drop the belt to absolutely anyone you like as long as it's not in Canada." The entire screwjob was just Vince wanting to have his cake and eat it.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:41
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I never thought Bret would take the actual WWE belt on WCW television, but the night after Survivor Series when the nWo came out with Canadian flags and said Bret was soon joining the nWo, I could see Bischoff coming out with a replica had the screw job not happened. Basically Vince cut off any chance Eric had of saying the reigning WWE champion was jumping to WCW.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:46
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I still have a problem with Bret's actions simply because (and I know he had creative control but...) he's playing a character in a fictional setting. It's not like Vince was asking him to get squashed and bury him, ruin his brand, he simply asked him to drop the belt at the biggest show. Creative control is dumb and I don't know why Vince let him have it.
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Oct 26, 2013 18:13
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The thing I never got was the complaints about creative control. Vince can point at it as being as unreasonable as he likes, Russo can point at Hogan being unprofessional, Dixie the same, but you can't blame the workers for using it - because you gave it to them.
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Oct 26, 2013 18:16
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maxallen posted:I still have a problem with Bret's actions simply because (and I know he had creative control but...) he's playing a character in a fictional setting. It's not like Vince was asking him to get squashed and bury him, ruin his brand, he simply asked him to drop the belt at the biggest show. I think people who retrospectively have this view are doing so through the prism of 2010s wrestling where title changes don't matter at all and except for Cena and to a lesser extent Orton even the champions are parity booked into oblivion. It's not like Hart was unwilling to do business at all - which he contractually could have been - he was just unwilling to let WWF use "Michaels beats Hart in Canada" to tarnish the Hart brand in favor of the Michaels/DX brand.
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Oct 26, 2013 18:27
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Skinty McEdger posted:The thing I never got was the complaints about creative control. Vince can point at it as being as unreasonable as he likes, Russo can point at Hogan being unprofessional, Dixie the same, but you can't blame the workers for using it - because you gave it to them. I guess I look at it that a creative control clause should be used for really egregious stuff - no I'm not gonna do this dumb gimmick, it'll kill my popularity, or I'm not going to do a squash match. Stuff that if you're in a situation like Bret, ensuring Vince doesn't ruin you forever before you head out the door, not having a hard fought contest against someone who has been booked and built as an equal opponent. And you can still look at the same era and see people dropping the belt and still being viewed in the same light or whatever, such as Hogan losing to Warrior or to a lesser extent, Lex technically defeating Yokozuna at Summerslam in '93. Yokozuna lost but he was still a monster heel. Lex didn't get the belt of course, but he was still the face of the company. (Try and not mind them both being terrible, their pushes still continued until the next year)
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Oct 26, 2013 18:40
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maxallen posted:I guess I look at it that a creative control clause should be used for really egregious stuff - no I'm not gonna do this dumb gimmick, it'll kill my popularity, or I'm not going to do a squash match. Stuff that if you're in a situation like Bret, ensuring Vince doesn't ruin you forever before you head out the door, not having a hard fought contest against someone who has been booked and built as an equal opponent. And you can still look at the same era and see people dropping the belt and still being viewed in the same light or whatever, such as Hogan losing to Warrior or to a lesser extent, Lex technically defeating Yokozuna at Summerslam in '93. Yokozuna lost but he was still a monster heel. Lex didn't get the belt of course, but he was still the face of the company. (Try and not mind them both being terrible, their pushes still continued until the next year) Hart wasn't going to look good in losing; the entire point was that he was willing to lose under circumstances that would have let him save some face, i.e. not in Canada to Michaels. He was being asked to job in his home "territory" after they spent 8 months building a territory vs. territory feud, to a guy that was notorious for making people look terrible, after being repeatedly double-crossed on his character portrayal.
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Oct 26, 2013 18:59
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jeffersonlives posted:Hart wasn't going to look good in losing; the entire point was that he was willing to lose under circumstances that would have let him save some face, i.e. not in Canada to Michaels. He was being asked to job in his home "territory" after they spent 8 months building a territory vs. territory feud, to a guy that was notorious for making people look terrible, after being repeatedly double-crossed on his character portrayal. He even said he would drop the title in Canada to Taker, Foley or Austin, or Michaels in the US. Just not Michaels in Canada.
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Oct 26, 2013 19:06
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maxallen posted:I still have a problem with Bret's actions simply because (and I know he had creative control but...) he's playing a character in a fictional setting. It's not like Vince was asking him to get squashed and bury him, ruin his brand, he simply asked him to drop the belt at the biggest show. He had it and furthermore Vince didn't give half a poo poo when Shawn refused to job to Bulldog in the UK, didn't give a poo poo when Austin refused to job to Rock for the IC title and didn't give a poo poo when Shawn refused to job. He had Bret only refusing to job under a certain circumstance but not refusing to lose the title, and this was a problem? He had Bret guaranteed for the rest of the month and was given an extra week if he wanted. He was given every accommodation there so he knew Bret wasn't leaving as champion. He let Bret had creative control because Bret got a much better deal from WCW and had to offer him an extremely long term deal to get him to stay. Part of that was creative control if the deal was breached so Vince couldn't just weasel out of the contract and start burying Bret if he wanted to...
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Oct 26, 2013 19:39
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EugeneJ posted:I never thought Bret would take the actual WWE belt on WCW television, but the night after Survivor Series when the nWo came out with Canadian flags and said Bret was soon joining the nWo, I could see Bischoff coming out with a replica had the screw job not happened. Basically Vince cut off any chance Eric had of saying the reigning WWE champion was jumping to WCW. Bret said Bischoff did not want to do a "WWF title on WCW television" angle at all, partially because the women's title incident was still being litigated at that point. Furthermore, Bischoff was really excited when Bret's WWF run ended with the screwjob. jeffersonlives posted:I think people who retrospectively have this view are doing so through the prism of 2010s wrestling where title changes don't matter at all and except for Cena and to a lesser extent Orton even the champions are parity booked into oblivion. It's not like Hart was unwilling to do business at all - which he contractually could have been - he was just unwilling to let WWF use "Michaels beats Hart in Canada" to tarnish the Hart brand in favor of the Michaels/DX brand. Yeah, titles don't really matter at all anymore, to the point that whatever belt is headlining Smackdown is now essentially a midcard title. In the 80's and 90's they were still crucial--whoever had the title had the future of the company in his hands, became vastly more important to the promoter, was actually protected in the booking, and so on. WWF in the 80's was still run completely like a circus, so if the champion didn't draw, most of the people down the card got paid poo poo. Hogan was often riding in jets from show to show. Bret is often accused of being a "belt mark," but even more than today, being booked badly could spell the end of your career, because if the promoter let you get buried or betrayed you for whatever reason, that was it. Having the title afforded a measure of protection against this bullshit and was clearly the position of responsibility in the company. So, HBK, a paranoid and nasty pillhead at this point who wasn't drawing as well and went out of his way to bury everybody and damage their careers with his shenanigans, was his natural archenemy. This whole screwjob situation is preceded by years of Bret watching Vince lie to him about his pushes, lie to other various stars as some sort of infantile mind game, and screw people out of previously arranged agreements (including Stu). Bret meanwhile has been working for years as a loyal company guy, rarely missing dates and easily having one of the longest tenures in the company--while being one of the best workers, many would say the best. The screwjob was completely irrational.
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Oct 26, 2013 19:40
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The screw job actually seems like it turned out to be a great decision. It got WWE roaring back to life, essentially have birth to the evil Mr. McMahon character that is still used today, protected Bret Hart's heat, and could've been used to help him in WCW as well going over the nWo. It had the potential to be a win win for everyone, except WCW hosed it up.
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Oct 26, 2013 19:48
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crankdatbatman posted:The screw job actually seems like it turned out to be a great decision. It got WWE roaring back to life, essentially have birth to the evil Mr. McMahon character that is still used today, protected Bret Hart's heat, and could've been used to help him in WCW as well going over the nWo. It had the potential to be a win win for everyone, except WCW hosed it up. It also made Wrestling With Shadows change from an average documentary about an old wrestler into an interesting drama, which was good for Bret. This stuff is why conspiracy theorists claim that the screwjob started as a work. Everybody came out of this better, for the most part. Bret became a huge national babyface, and wrestling at a lesser level. Vince became an interesting heel and got attention for his company. Jim Neidhart had no role without being in Bret's stable but at least was allowed to leave and get a WCW deal. Bulldog may have still been a draw for WWE but had the opportunity to leave and also get a WCW deal. Owen Hart could have left but chose to stay and got a decent push out of it for a while. I think he knew he would always be considered a midcarder by WWE regardless, so it wasn't like we was buried because Bret left. HBK and HHH only got more heel heat. Now, this could have been a bit like the Hogan/Russo "shoot" in WCW where Hogan know Vince Russo would "shoot" on him but Russo knowingly went too far and legit pissed off Hogan. Vince may have taken too many shots at Bret. When Bulldog returned to WWE I recall he did an interview that was considered exploitative and maybe criticized Bret. Owen's death was obviously a source of anger. Bret's family was not in on the work and things got out of hand on both sides, and at this point Bret would have a ton to lose if it ever was proven or admitted to be a work. I'm not saying I believe that, but like any good conspiracy theory there's logic to it.
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Oct 26, 2013 20:44
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WeaselWeaz posted:It also made Wrestling With Shadows change from an average documentary about an old wrestler into an interesting drama, which was good for Bret. This stuff is why conspiracy theorists claim that the screwjob started as a work. Everybody came out of this better, for the most part. Bret became a huge national babyface, and wrestling at a lesser level. Vince became an interesting heel and got attention for his company. Jim Neidhart had no role without being in Bret's stable but at least was allowed to leave and get a WCW deal. Bulldog may have still been a draw for WWE but had the opportunity to leave and also get a WCW deal. Owen Hart could have left but chose to stay and got a decent push out of it for a while. I think he knew he would always be considered a midcarder by WWE regardless, so it wasn't like we was buried because Bret left. HBK and HHH only got more heel heat. Owen Hart tried to leave but was not allowed to leave.
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Oct 26, 2013 20:46
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Ghostpilot posted:Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I believe that Hogan vs King Kong Bundy follows that template in which Bundy wins clean over Hogan, kayfabe breaks his ribs to where Hogan had to be stretchered out. Then there were vignettes of Hogan's recovery and training (taped ribs and all) before finally overcoming Bundy in a cage match at WM2 and regaining the belt. Earthquake was the one who broke Hogan's ribs and put him out for a fairly extended period, and I remember them having training/recovery montages for that, but this was a good while later than the Bundy feud.
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Oct 26, 2013 22:04
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sticklefifer posted:Earthquake was the one who broke Hogan's ribs and put him out for a fairly extended period, and I remember them having training/recovery montages for that, but this was a good while later than the Bundy feud. They did a rib injury angle with Hogan against Bundy, too. Pretty sure he taped his ribs for the WM2 match.
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Oct 26, 2013 23:41
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I came across this video earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fGroJC4Z7s So, apparently Austin broke Masahiro Chono's neck the same way Owen broke Austin's neck? Why did I never hear about this until now? I would have thought it'd be mentioned before now. So my question is has Austin ever spoken about this, before or after his own injury?
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Oct 27, 2013 05:53
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Perfidus posted:I came across this video earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fGroJC4Z7s I don't think it was a broken neck, but it was a serious injury and it ruined Chono as a worker. Not sure if Austin has ever talked about it.
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Oct 27, 2013 08:25
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Perfidus posted:I came across this video earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fGroJC4Z7s ...was the Owendriver payback for this? I never knew about this until now.
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Oct 27, 2013 08:36
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Why the gently caress does the merch cost so much? Hopefully it isnt the obvious answer.
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Oct 27, 2013 08:48
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EugeneJ posted:...was the Owendriver payback for this? Yeah, Owen wanted revenge for the Chono/Rude match.
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Oct 27, 2013 09:30
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Perfidus posted:I came across this video earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fGroJC4Z7s Pretty sure it's brought up in this interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqfMsLkXew4 and he says he didn't apologize because he was unaware how serious it was at the time. 36 minutes in it comes up. jalopybrown fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Oct 27, 2013 |
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Oct 27, 2013 10:03
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It's good to know he acknowledged it. Even if he kinda rushed off the topic. It's still just mind blowing to me as a fan that through all this time I never heard about it until so recently.
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Oct 27, 2013 12:42
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Who is the ugliest luchadore to ever be unmasked, Psicosis, Juventud, someone else? Has anyone ever been so ugly they made them put the mask back on?
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Oct 27, 2013 15:18
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