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Well, people who think that are probably the same people who think that doctors are satan rather than the normal religious stance that creation is magic etc.
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Oct 29, 2013 03:49
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E-Tank posted:What. No you see avoiding pregnancy through condoms and birth control is bad because you're taking steps to prevent getting pregnant while "Natural Family Planning" is OK because you are taking different steps to prevent getting pregnant.
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Oct 29, 2013 03:50
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Mornacale posted:the idea that it's making someone pregnant when God didn't want to). I don't think these guys understand the phrase "God works in mysterious ways" all that well. How do they differentiate between God wanting a woman to get pregnant by letting the IVF work between God not wanting a woman to get pregnant by making the natural method not work? I mean, he's God, so any woman he wanted to get pregnant wouldn't even need to use the natural method either, because there's always immaculate conception.
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Oct 29, 2013 03:55
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Nice Davis posted:No you see avoiding pregnancy through condoms and birth control is bad because you're taking steps to prevent getting pregnant while "Natural Family Planning" is OK because you are taking different steps to prevent getting pregnant. God invented days in the menstrual cycle with low probability of conception. God did not invent condoms (the devil did).
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Oct 29, 2013 04:00
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Look if you just do things the way that we've done them for the last couple hundred years or so then it's all normal and natural and that's how it's supposed to be, and then whatever happens is god's will, but if you try to do something new that changes society then you're loving everything up. Duh. e: To be slightly less flippant, ultimately the answer to these questions is the same as your preferred answer to "how can there be free will if God is omniscient/omnipotent/etc.?" Mornacale fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 04:01
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DarkHorse posted:You're in a fertility clinic when a fire breaks out. Fumbling your way through the smoke-filled rooms to the exit, you cross one with a passed-out five-year-old boy. Next to it is a refrigeration unit you know to contain ten fertilized embryos. You can only carry one of them out before the roaring fire consumes the room; which do you choose? Now that you've saved that refrigeration unit, you'd better hurry home and plug it in. If you let the temperature drop you'll basically be murdering those kids. I'm sure that your church or other charities will help you pay for electricity and maintenance. It's time to take personal responsibility for your actions.
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Oct 29, 2013 04:03
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There have been way too many times in various discussions with anti-choicers that I have seen and had where once you corner them, they do not give a flying gently caress about the fetus - no, for them the real issue is to make women suffer for having sex.
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Oct 29, 2013 04:58
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Taaaaaaarb! posted:There have been way too many times in various discussions with anti-choicers that I have seen and had where once you corner them, they do not give a flying gently caress about the fetus - no, for them the real issue is to make women suffer for having sex. Yeah, that's basically what it all boils down to. Personally I think that's pretty sadistic to think that an unwanted human life is just a punishment to inflict on someone who made poor life choices, but I don't go to church so I'm a bad person with no morals.
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Oct 29, 2013 05:02
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E-Tank posted:If....Okay, if god is supposed to be omnipotent, then what he says goes. Right?
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Oct 29, 2013 05:08
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Mornacale posted:I know that when I was growing up in the Catholic Church I was taught several times that IVF is immoral (between having to discard embryos and the idea that it's making someone pregnant when God didn't want to). I'm glad the Catholic Church has its bases covered  But wanting to ban IVF is harder to argue for politically; so it confuses Evangelicals who are just mobilized on single issues {artifact-ed gory picture of a fetus arm on a nickel.jpg} *\SEND THIS TO 5 FRIENDS TO FIGHT 4 LIFE/*
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Oct 29, 2013 05:08
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Remember, if you're arguing with an embryo-adopter, they probably support all kinds of regressive, punitive social policies that make having children more difficult and miserable. Basically the only safe pro-life position is to be an embryo-adopting socialist; and even then you've got to tread carefully to avoid Ceausescu territory.
VideoTapir fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 05:09
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Yeah, that's basically what it all boils down to. Ain't non-belief grand. Anyway, the way to get to that is basically get to a position in the discussion wherein you ask the rear end in a top hat why an embryo or fetus--something that certainly doesn't qualify as a person--should be given rights that absolutely no other person has, the right to someone else' body. They will at first try to pawn it off as pregnancy not being that demanding but when called on that particular line of bullshit, they always go to blaming women for having sex that they "could not afford" (writing that was stomach-churning in and of itself). They always gloss over the other party in the pregnancy: the men who knocked the women up, because it's the woman's fault for having sex and men are just along for the ride 
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Oct 29, 2013 05:14
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E-Tank posted:What. No, God's will is actually pretty easy to thwart. You do it every time you take penicillin and don't die horribly of the pneumonia that He tried to kill you with and it really pisses Him off. Remember, this is a God whose plan to keep people from eating magic fruit was to put that magic fruit in a garden with two guileless and curious humans, give them a vague and incomplete explanation of why they shouldn't eat it, then go away to do something else while they are left alone with the Master of Lies. So yes, IVF is thwarting God's will because He's completely poo poo at running the universe and we need to cut Him some slack or Satan wins.
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Oct 29, 2013 05:25
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VitalSigns posted:No, God's will is actually pretty easy to thwart. You do it every time you take penicillin and don't die horribly of the pneumonia that He tried to kill you with and it really pisses Him off. Remember, this is a God whose plan to keep people from eating magic fruit was to put that magic fruit in a garden with two guileless and curious humans, give them a vague and incomplete explanation of why they shouldn't eat it, then go away to do something else while they are left alone with the Master of Lies. Isn't this a stated position of the Westboro Baptist Church? Basically God hates you and wants you to die, and trying to not die just angers Him more.
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Oct 29, 2013 05:38
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Wagging that bit of logic around my father provides for great entertainment. He's done everything from clam up to calling me a liberal fork-tongued serpent (yes, he is one of those "liberals always gently caress everything up" kind of people) for showing that his god is a complete doofus or a psychopath. So, yeah, don't pull this on anyone you depend on because they might not exactly respond rationally.
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Oct 29, 2013 05:54
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EightBit posted:Wagging that bit of logic around my father provides for great entertainment. He's done everything from clam up to calling me a liberal fork-tongued serpent (yes, he is one of those "liberals always gently caress everything up" kind of people) for showing that his god is a complete doofus or a psychopath. Jesus gently caress, how do you even deal with that? I mean it's one thing if they're people on the internet, but family? Ouch.
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Oct 29, 2013 06:28
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E-Tank posted:Therefore by that logic, you must assume that because she *did* get pregnant, god must have wanted her to be pregnant, because otherwise he wouldn't allow it to actually loving WORK. DOCTOR: I'm sorry, ma'am, you're not conventionally fertile. You won't be able to conceive through natural methods. LADY: Oh no! Is there anything we can do? DOCTOR: Sure, there are a number of medical interventions we can do. We'll do IVF or medicinal fertility treatment. There's a small chance this could result in dangerous multiple pregnancies, are you okay with-- LADY: Yes yes shutup get in my womb and give me a baby! [six months later] DOCTOR: Well, the treatment worked. Unfortunately you're now carrying hextuplets. It's a near 100% certainty that all 6 babies will die unless we selectively abort a few of them. Would you like to consid-- LADY: How dare you bring that up. You dirty secular humanist! Why would we interfere with the will of God, you abortionist sinner? [all six babies are born prematurely and die within minutes; LADY requires hysterectomy due to complications] LADY: Why have you done this to me, God?
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Oct 29, 2013 14:27
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Taaaaaaarb! posted:There have been way too many times in various discussions with anti-choicers that I have seen and had where once you corner them, they do not give a flying gently caress about the fetus - no, for them the real issue is to make women suffer for having sex. My favorite question to ask anti-choice protesters is "If abortion is made illegal, what should the punishment be for the woman?" I still have never received a straight answer 
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Oct 29, 2013 15:05
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Nice Davis posted:My favorite question to ask anti-choice protesters is "If abortion is made illegal, what should the punishment be for the woman?" The mental gymnastics of anti-choicers in the effort to hide their disdain for women and impose their will on them is impressive to say the least. I also have not heard a good answer for that one, especially when you bring up the unfortunate (for them) reality of miscarriages - how do you tell the difference between an abortion or a miscarriage? What if the woman doesn't know she was pregnant and miscarries? Is it her fault?
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Oct 29, 2013 15:16
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Nice Davis posted:My favorite question to ask anti-choice protesters is "If abortion is made illegal, what should the punishment be for the woman?" "Jail for murder." Yeah, this particular argument doesn't work on some fundies in my family.
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Oct 29, 2013 15:33
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I would also guess the answer to the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is "costly and invasive investigation, possibly requiring a lawyer."
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Oct 29, 2013 15:35
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The gun nuts had two successful recalls in Colorado a short while ago so now they're trying for another one. Of course one of their advocates want the argument ad Hitlerum and received this in response;
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Oct 29, 2013 15:37
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Taaaaaaarb! posted:The mental gymnastics of anti-choicers in the effort to hide their disdain for women and impose their will on them is impressive to say the least. I also have not heard a good answer for that one, especially when you bring up the unfortunate (for them) reality of miscarriages - how do you tell the difference between an abortion or a miscarriage? What if the woman doesn't know she was pregnant and miscarries? Is it her fault? Murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, and negligent homicide are already well defined in most legal systems. One could say if the woman doesn't know she was pregnant and miscarries, if the miscarriage was due to behavior likely to induce a miscarriage then there is a case for negligent homicide. On the other hand if the fetus poses a risk to the woman's health then it could be considered justifiable homicide. The sidestepping of all these really just shows that either they don't consider fetuses to actually have full personhood. e: Or in the case of automatic "jail for murder" without nuance consider them to have some magical personhood more than the woman. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 15:42
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Nice Davis posted:My favorite question to ask anti-choice protesters is "If abortion is made illegal, what should the punishment be for the woman?" I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death, here, but does anyone know why they can't answer that question? It seems like one of the protesters started to admit that a law against abortion would basically equate it to murder, but she wasn't as adamant about locking a woman up for life for an abortion. I'm just curious as to why they can't support the inevitable result of what would happen if they successfully made abortion illegal. Also, for the guy that brought up whether or not they'd be able to tell the difference between abortion and miscarriage, and what they'd do about it, El Salvador has that base covered
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Oct 29, 2013 15:50
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stan worship posted:I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death, here, but does anyone know why they can't answer that question? Because they haven't given their position more than 60 seconds of consideration before coming to a conclusion that satisfied their worldview.
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Oct 29, 2013 16:25
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Buzkashi posted:Because they haven't given their position more than 60 seconds of consideration before coming to a conclusion that satisfied their worldview.
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Oct 29, 2013 16:46
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Buzkashi posted:Because they haven't given their position more than 60 seconds of consideration before coming to a conclusion that satisfied their worldview. Also because they don't actually give a drat about aborted babies. It's all about punishing women for having sex and they have a naive view that banning abortions and contraception and telling people abstinence is the only way to avoid pregnancy is going to eradicate premarital sex. For men, they can get around their guilt at having premarital sex by making sure the consequences fall squarely on the woman for being a 'slut' by having sex with them. That's it.
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Oct 29, 2013 16:52
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Guilty Spork posted:why they keep pushing the idea that abortions cause breast cancer and depression when legitimate medical experts have totally debunked those notions, and so on. http://www.jstephens.biology.lsu.edu/notes/John%20Rock%27s%20Error.pdf If he'd had gone full out for the 'drug that stops babies' angle, prescribed constantly instead of in three week bursts, it would have reduced the cancer risk over both the current pill and pretty much every other method including abstinence (except for being constantly barefoot and pregnant, which I suspect is what some of the anti-choice people actually want).
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Oct 29, 2013 16:58
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So I forgot to take pictures, but I finally up and left a closed facebook group that claimed to be a "legitimate avenue of discussion for conservatives, liberals, libertarians, and etc". It was not. Basically all conversations went one of three ways: 1) Conservative posts anti-liberal meme or some article alleging wrongdoing or inefficiency in something done by a Democrat (say, Obamacare). Liberals acknowledge this, but point out that the conservative is wrong on X, Y, and Z fact they bring up. Conservative does a derail of the topic and took partisan shots at the liberals (who are more center-left lukewarm types than anything else) under a guise of faux-reasonableness until the liberals give up. 2) Lukewarm liberal with bad grammar points out something positive that Obama did (or something he thinks is positive, like Obamacare), and is immediately attacked (in factual ways and blatantly non-factual ways) by every single one of the conservatives. He never gets a real chance to defend himself. 3) Conservative posts an anti-liberal meme, takes a bunch of partisan potshots, pretends to be reasonable, but keeps moving the goalposts while snidely accusing liberals of doing the same. The last straw for me was a conservative posting something about Jon Stewart rightfully calling out Obama, my agreement with Stewart then another conservative going "you mean not all liberals see Obama as the messiah?!?". This devolved into a long argument involving me pointing out that no one seriously called Obama the Messiah, the conservatives go "no Jamie Foxx said Obama was his Lord and Master, and all these magazines had titles like Obama's Second Coming and Obama: Messiah!" I mean, they brought up Louis Farrakahn, for goodness's sake. When I pointed out sarcasm and artistic license are things that exist, they accused me of moving the goalposts. That was the last straw, because seriously, the conservatives in the group were snide morons who pretended to be intellectuals.
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Oct 29, 2013 17:09
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Gygaxian posted:So I forgot to take pictures, but I finally up and left a closed facebook group that claimed to be a "legitimate avenue of discussion for conservatives, liberals, libertarians, and etc". It was not. Basically all conversations went one of three ways: I have a friend that occasionally mentions a group like that and his frustrations with it. Moral of the story: unmoderated communities always end up falling into this because of the anonymity of it all. It's easier to be a jerk or make a bullshit argument to a non-friend you can't see face-to-face. I fully believe that visible, emotional reactions are what keeps us civil. Unmoderated anonymous Internet comments are as far from that as we can get.
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Oct 29, 2013 17:35
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Guilty Spork posted:I'm sure there are pro-lifers out there somewhere with a more considered point of view, but by and large they seem to be up there with creationists for their ability to uncritically latch onto things that support their views and ignore everything else. That's why they have giant gross signs that are utterly unrepresentative of about 99%+ of real life abortions, why they keep pushing the idea that abortions cause breast cancer and depression when legitimate medical experts have totally debunked those notions, and so on. My favorite thing when they talk about the health dangers of abortion: "So if they came up with a way to make abortion 100% safe, you'd be in favor of it being legal?"
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Oct 29, 2013 17:40
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De Nomolos posted:I have a friend that occasionally mentions a group like that and his frustrations with it. I really love how projection is the first line of defense that right wing authoritarians use when encountering an argument.
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Oct 29, 2013 17:49
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If I've learned anything from the numerous amounts of arguments I've had with College Conservatives and Libertarians is the only thing that's kept me from punching them for being evil awful regressive shits is the eventual jail time I would do for it. People are just as capable of being lying aggressive jack offs in person as they are on the internet.
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Oct 29, 2013 17:49
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Gygaxian posted:The last straw for me was a conservative posting something about Jon Stewart rightfully calling out Obama, my agreement with Stewart then another conservative going "you mean not all liberals see Obama as the messiah?!?". This devolved into a long argument involving me pointing out that no one seriously called Obama the Messiah, the conservatives go "no Jamie Foxx said Obama was his Lord and Master, and all these magazines had titles like Obama's Second Coming and Obama: Messiah!" I mean, they brought up Louis Farrakahn, for goodness's sake. When I pointed out sarcasm and artistic license are things that exist, they accused me of moving the goalposts. That was the last straw, because seriously, the conservatives in the group were snide morons who pretended to be intellectuals. I left a politics discussion group for much the same reason. Conservatives will lambast Obama for being a fascist warmonger that's "Bushier than Bush", while at the same time refusing to believe that that's not actually what liberalism is about. Obama is the most liberal liberal that's ever liberaled, and so it follows that everything he does is leftist, and from there it's impossible to convince conservatives that maybe the Democrats aren't also flawed.
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Oct 29, 2013 18:09
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So these guys were on campus today.. http://i.imgur.com/ZkhFx0O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/NwhuofB.jpg  So, I assume these are the types of peeps who have the ear of the gop atm? (couldn't post the first two due to the image be too large). Nice that they reference a letter from Paul re: Homosexuality. I did want to ask what Jesus himself said about "gays" in the bible. Which would have been well...nothing. e: what kind of food and beverage do you bring to a party in hell? FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 19:04
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Man, it's bad when you manage to make the least inspired Chick tract panel into something more boring. 
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Oct 29, 2013 19:09
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 Homosexuality: A perversion of something God created; Good!
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Oct 29, 2013 19:10
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FuzzySkinner posted:So these guys were on campus today.. Hey I saw them too! They were here earlier this year and had a chick tract on one of their posters.
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Oct 29, 2013 19:12
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Taaaaaaarb! posted:Jesus gently caress, how do you even deal with that? I mean it's one thing if they're people on the internet, but family? Ouch. I'm 30 and have my poo poo together, so I find it endlessly amusing, especially since he believes that he has to restrain himself if he ever wants to win me over, or some other guilt-laden sob story of how he is responsible for me being an atheist. I also do it to try to show my younger brothers, who are still in high school, how ridiculous the poo poo he believes is so they don't get suckered into it.
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Oct 29, 2013 21:13
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FuzzySkinner posted:So these guys were on campus today.. Hey! That's my campus! Yeah, I've always wanted to interact with them but I'd probably just get shouted down.
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Oct 29, 2013 21:37
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