|
Anonymous Zebra posted:I also like the idea that as soon as Abnett wrote in Legion that the primarch of the Alpha Legion is actually a set of twins, that it immediately implies that there is one Primarch unaccounted for in 40k. Like, that's loving Earth-shaking if it was something that wasn't considered within the meta-plot of the books up till that point. The twins are one primarch, there's not an extra one nobody has discovered floating around. They're basically each half a primarch.
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 12:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 20:26 |
|
|
hopterque posted:The twins are one primarch, there's not an extra one nobody has discovered floating around. They're basically each half a primarch. Yes, but if I understand the lore correctly, only one of the two got killed (because no one knew there were two), so the other half is still running about doing things for the last 10,000 years. Or both are alive, because the lore seems to indicate that no one is even sure it was really the primarch that died since the entire legion pretends to be him.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 12:30
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Alpharius (maybe) killed Roboute (mostly) Wasn't it Fulgrim who cut Roboute's throat with the venomed blade? Fulgrim is 2/0 for Primarch kills. hopterque posted:The twins are one primarch, there's not an extra one nobody has discovered floating around. They're basically each half a primarch. True, but it was still a massive revelation that there is a primarch level being out there unaccounted for. While he may not be in the same league as the others, he's still going to be one of the most dangerous beings in the galaxy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 12:45
|
|
|
I like to think that the guy Robby G killed was actually yet another imposter, and both twins are still alive and at large. Both of them have completely separate, possibly conflicting agendas shot through with a multitude of convoluted plots and contingencies. Maybe one side is pro-Emperor, and the other isn't, or both are, or both aren't, or they only care about the Imperium because loving with the Inquisition is so much fun and they otherwise have unrelated goals. Or all of this is true, and that makes sense, because Chaos, and Tzeentch is likely the only being who's completely in on the joke.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 13:06
|
|
|
Mowglis Haircut posted:Pretty sure Erebus and Kor Phaeron, though allies, despise each other utterly. I think in 40k they have a huge rivalry in the legion, openly clashing with each other. Which is annoying that it's a foregone conclusion that both of them survive the Heresy. Though I am looking forward to what else will happen to Erebus before it's over, as he seems to be a favourite whipping boy for the authors. I guess they think if they can't kill him they'll do other nasty poo poo to him. I'm just speculating but given that nobody has seen Lorgar after the Heresy and his ascension to daemonhood it'd be great if it turns out Erebus and the Dark Council approach Lorgar and offer him a promotion as 'Supreme Life President of thespaceinvader posted:Yeah, most of the primarchs have been pretty useless since the Heresy - but when you think about it, actually comparatively few of them are still around. Horus died, Kurze died, Fulgrim died (well, as good as, that daemon ain't him), Perturabo forted his rear end up and ain't coming out. Magnus, Angron, Mortarion, Alpharius/Omegon, and Lorgar are the only ones really still able to make inroad. Angron has (albeit fairly ineffectually). Alpharius (maybe) killed Roboute (mostly), which happened well after the Heresy, from memory. Magnus, Lorgar and Mortarion are being lazy fuckers though, and the daemon that ate Fulgrim isn't doing much either. I think once the primarchs ascended into daemonhood, most of them promptly lost interest in the Imperium and focused their minds on other pursuits or goals. They only seemed to come back to the mortal plane when their attention is needed. They're probably too busy fighting other daemons or being involved with the war between the Chaos gods themselves.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 13:31
|
|
|
Cream_Filling posted:But he's first chaplain of the most religious legion, though. That's like the highest position in the whole legion short of being primarch. He's more like the scheming dickhole vice-president who wants the founder to become old and senile so he can take over the company. Nah Dick Cheney seems more apt.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 13:33
|
|
|
Dog_Meat posted:Wasn't it Fulgrim who cut Roboute's throat with the venomed blade? Fulgrim is 2/0 for Primarch kills. E: looks like I'm conflating two separate events according to Lexicanum - Roboute killed Alpharius (maybe but probably not) and was killed (mostly) by Fulgrim, so yeah. Also, I don't know anything about any further story beyond the Fulgrim book in which he got horribly possessed and killed Ferrus. I've got a little out of touch with the Heresy stuff, and never read any of the ebook or audiobook exclusive stories. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Nov 1, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 14:02
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Fairly sure it was the alpha legion, but I'll admit to being a little out of touch with the lore in places. I was going on memory - but there've been a few changes in the heresy so I wasn't 100% sure. Like you, I haven't got the audio books or oversized special editions so I'm missing chunks of the story. Alpharius could have slipped into Loken's armour and has been chilling under the Imperium's nose for all I'd know. But Fulgrim seems to be the Primarch hunter. Who elso got to kill a primarch? Only Horus and Roboute (maybe?). Yet Fulgrim has effeectively taken out 2 of them. It's hinted that Russ has done it, but the others have either ascended before they died (Magnus), let themselves get killed in dodgy circumstances (Kurze) or it's taken an army to take them down (Dorn). And of course the Big E himself had to utterly obliterate Horus from existence. Fulgrim is definitely one of the top teir guys when it comes to one on one combat At the risk of provoking fan boyism, has there ever been a heirachy of who were the best fighters? There are clear 'teirs' with them, ie. Lorgar and Alpharius at the bottom, Russ, Sangy and Horus up the top - but has any sperg dared create a "top ten" style list?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 14:26
|
|
|
I think Fulgrim takes out Roboute because A) he's already supposed to be a really good swordsman, and B) by that point he's ascended to this weird six-armed demon prince slaanesh snake thing who now has six swords instead of one or two.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 14:40
|
|
|
I'd probably put Angron over everyone followed closley by the Lion, the Angel, and Russ in no particular order.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 14:46
|
|
|
Dog_Meat posted:I was going on memory - but there've been a few changes in the heresy so I wasn't 100% sure. Like you, I haven't got the audio books or oversized special editions so I'm missing chunks of the story. Alpharius could have slipped into Loken's armour and has been chilling under the Imperium's nose for all I'd know. Top 3 are supposed to be Sanguinus, Horus, and Angron, because that was part of Lorgar's motivation in Betrayer. He knew Sanguinus would be coming at all of them like, well, an avenging angel, and the only ones who had a hope of standing against him were Angron and Horus. So he "saved" Angron to keep him around to fight Sanguinus if it came down to it. EDIT: And since Vulkan got the Emperor's "warp based wolverine style regeneration" I guess he has to be up there just because even if he comes at you with a dull crayon you can't put him down for good
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 14:48
|
|
|
That's true. I can almost picture Fulgrim slithering up with his new Hindu God arms waving the swords and Roboute saying "oh come the gently caress ON! Really?!" I just love that scene in Know No Fear where Roboute charges into battle and the narator says something like "who is his equal in combat? His seventeen brothers? Not all seventeen. Not even close. Four, maybe five at most. AT MOST". he sperg in me wants to know who they are, dammit! Dog_Meat fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Nov 1, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 14:51
|
|
|
I'm really excited to see the Heresy draw closer to Terra. Master of Mankind is going to be great, but I hope Abnett or ADB are in charge of the siege itself. I'd really enjoy seeing a space navy book about Luna being destroyed. Theres so much they can do and I cant wait to see how they tackle it. A goon a few pages ago talked about how awesome some Great Crusade novels would be, and I gotta echo that. It would have served to set up the Primarchs and their fall in a beautiful way. I hope GW considers something like that in the future if they won't move the universe foward.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 14:54
|
|
|
DirtyRobot posted:I think Fulgrim takes out Roboute because A) he's already supposed to be a really good swordsman, and B) by that point he's ascended to this weird six-armed demon prince slaanesh snake thing who now has six swords instead of one or two. Isn't Roboute in statis somewhere and not technically dead yet? Not the same but I read that the Lion is in some prolonged slumber, awaiting some event/calling before he awakens.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 14:59
|
|
|
ElPedro posted:Isn't Roboute in statis somewhere and not technically dead yet? Not the same but I read that the Lion is in some prolonged slumber, awaiting some event/calling before he awakens. Roboute is on Macragge in stasis right at the point of bleeding out because nobody knows how to stop the venomed wound. There are rumours that he's healing in stasis - one of the end games is that he wakes up. The Lion is asleep in the rock, but I don't think that's actually known "in universe" - just a select few of the chapter.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 15:03
|
|
|
Well, the Lion is not-King Arthur, so like Arthur, he has been magically healed of his wounds and sleeps waiting for
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 15:12
|
|
|
Waroduce posted:A goon a few pages ago talked about how awesome some Great Crusade novels would be, and I gotta echo that. It would have served to set up the Primarchs and their fall in a beautiful way. I hope GW considers something like that in the future if they won't move the universe foward. Given that people are happy with 40K fiction, there's so much more they could do from the Reformation to the Reign of Blood. Dog_Meat posted:Roboute is on Macragge in stasis right at the point of bleeding out because nobody knows how to stop the venomed wound. There are rumours that he's healing in stasis - one of the end games is that he wakes up. I think nobody but Luther and the Watchers know about the Lion (the Grand Master only knows about Luther).
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 15:27
|
|
|
hopterque posted:Just a note, Fulgrim defeated the demon trying to possess him shortly after it actually did it, as seen in the horrible butt rape torture story that got discussed at length earlier in the thread. Nope, nope, nope. (If I say it enough it will be true...) Can't believe McNeill set up the great tragic fall then scrapped it all for any reason other than being forced by moron management.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 15:36
|
|
|
Eh, Fulgrim getting so loving high with Slaanesh that he kicks the greater Daemon possessing him' rear end out of his rear end is pretty 40k. Also I like to think Perturabo actually went and made the planet he always wanted when he went Daemon prince. I just want there to be one place in the 40k verse that actually is pretty cool to live in, even if it's in the Eye of Terror. Since we like to talk hypotheticals a lot here, what do you think would have happened if Roboute had told the Emperor to gently caress off and use Russ the next time he wanted to humble a legion after Monarchia? If Lorgar had seen him remorseful for what his legion had been forced to do? I figure that might have prevented the heresy unfolding almost entirely, but who knows.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 15:58
|
|
|
Fellblade posted:Nope, nope, nope. Given the quality of his writing, it's more likely that management scripted the fall (since that was the default explanation before HH) and McNeill did the twiiiiist because he's an idiot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 16:26
|
|
|
Fellblade posted:Nope, nope, nope. I haven't read that story so I choose to believe he's trapped in a painting.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 16:38
|
|
|
VanSandman posted:Eh, Fulgrim getting so loving high with Slaanesh that he kicks the greater Daemon possessing him' rear end out of his rear end is pretty 40k. Honestly, I think the situation is more like the one you see in sports with second-rate franchises where the little team thinks there's some giant rivalry with a much better team, but the better team isn't even aware a rivalry exists. Judging from stuff like Know No Fear, Guilliman seems to be a little embarrassed that he had to humiliate the Word Bearers and wants to mend fences, but he also trusts and agrees with the Emperor's judgment and sees it as a necessary and entirely justified corrective move. Lorgar's legion is probably mad at the Ultramarines because they're mad at the Emperor for rejecting their gesture of love, but they can't actually acknowledge their anger because of their beliefs so it all transfers to Guilliman since he's nominally their equal and not daddy / considered a literal god. And, absent continuing contact, this enmity festers even though it's almost entirely one-sided. Also, if Erebus and Kor Phaeron weren't there to whisper in his ear and get him actually corrupted, we can assume Lorgar would be mad for a while but then fall back into line and sublimate his religious impulses into other forms of philosophy or something. There's a temptation, as in all fiction, to take the word of people like Lorgar, Angron, and Perturabo at face value, since they're protagonists of their books and are given sympathetic treatments by (by BL standards) decent writers. But they've also got their own agendas and interests in justifying themselves, so it's always good to look at multiple interpretations of the facts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 16:45
|
|
|
IIRC the ranking of primarchs in actual single melee combat is very different from other rankings, and probably varies wildly depending on the state of the warp at the time - Lorgar in the middle of the end fight of Betrayer could probably have taken basically any of them, given that he was psy-beatdowning loving titans single-handed. But when the warp isn't on his side, he's not the best. Probably I'd peg it as Sanguinius, Angron, Fulgrim, Russ, Lion, Roboute, and the rest after that. It also depends hugely on the environment - Mortarion on his home turf could probably just gas everyone else and win, etc etc.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 17:04
|
|
|
Psssh, everyone knows Kurze could beat everyone else.... With prep time. :batman:
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 17:46
|
|
|
Given the fluff, I'd say the ranking of one-on-one primarch dueling beatdowns is Angron>Horus>Sanguinius>Russ>Lion. Angron would likely die five minutes after beating up the Angel or even Horus, but while the others are all ridiculously powerful warriors, they are also something else: generals, artists, statesmen, scholar. Not Angron. He is purely a kicker of rear end with no distractions. I like how Lorgar puts it to Horus. "There are only two among us who would stand in defiance of the Angel’s wrath, Horus. Only two who would see him slain, once he fights with nothing left to lose. You are one. Angron is the other." As for the daemon primarchs, they are away due to plot necessity. The plot is no longer about them, just like the loyal primarchs also found one excuse or another to exit stage left. in Storm of Iron, one ascending traitor says that the call of the Warp is almost irresistible once you pass a certain stage, and that compared to it the material realm is usually a fleeting interest. It's as good a reason as any. Some of them may be able/willing to focus onto the materium when they feel like it (to be banished by imperial heroes), and I guess most would want to be there on Terra if a Black Crusade ever made it that far. I like to think Lorgar is just happily sailing the metaphysics of the Warp and thinking he won. His father is a wreck, his Imperium is almost the exact opposite of the godless enlighted realm he envisioned, and Chaos will likely engulf it sooner or later no matter how many Crusades are defeated. The fact that he was the architect of the main dogma of the Ecclesiarchy must gall and amuse him in equal measure.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 18:14
|
|
|
I get the impression of Horus that he's not actually all that wonderful in single combat. He's an all-rounder, good enough at everything to be the best of his brothers, but not good enough to be better than the best of them at any one thing - basically, he;s the perfect pewrson for every loving one of them to be jealous of, because he's better than them at their worst parts. He's also much more of a strategist than an up-close-and-personal guy. When he kills Sanguinius he's all hopped up on Chaos, which probably doesn't count.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 18:26
|
|
|
Fried Chicken posted:Top 3 are supposed to be Sanguinus, Horus, and Angron, because that was part of Lorgar's motivation in Betrayer. Noooot exactly. Lorgar knew that the only two Chaos primarchs that could face the Angel were Angron and Horus. This doesn't tell us anything about the loyalist primarchs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2013 21:31
|
|
|
Waroduce posted:A goon a few pages ago talked about how awesome some Great Crusade novels would be, and I gotta echo that. It would have served to set up the Primarchs and their fall in a beautiful way. I hope GW considers something like that in the future if they won't move the universe foward.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 00:20
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:IIRC the ranking of primarchs in actual single melee combat is very different from other rankings, and probably varies wildly depending on the state of the warp at the time - Lorgar in the middle of the end fight of Betrayer could probably have taken basically any of them, given that he was psy-beatdowning loving titans single-handed. But when the warp isn't on his side, he's not the best. I don't think Lion should be ranked so high, considering that he almost got killed by Luther, who isn't even a full space marine, nevermind a Primarch.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 01:10
|
|
|
ChrisAsmadi posted:I don't think Lion should be ranked so high, considering that he almost got killed by Luther, who isn't even a full space marine, nevermind a Primarch. Yet at the same time in one of the short stories it mentions that the lion was the only one who was even able to hold his own in sparring with his father. Also was the lion even really hurt in the duel? I thought it was more from the planet he was on exploding.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 04:09
|
|
|
UberJumper posted:Yet at the same time in one of the short stories it mentions that the lion was the only one who was even able to hold his own in sparring with his father. It probably exploded because the duel was so wicked awesome. Edit: I assume you mean Luther was able to hold his own with the Lion? The sentence can parse in three ways: Luther as Lion's father, the Lion as Luther's (space marine Geneseed dad, and all) and the Emperor as the Lion's father.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 04:14
|
|
|
Also bear in mind that Luther has pulled a Horus as far as we know. There's a decent bit of warp in him at that point.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 04:15
|
|
|
UberJumper posted:Yet at the same time in one of the short stories it mentions that the lion was the only one who was even able to hold his own in sparring with his father. Ferrus Manus apparently fought the Emperor on a mountain for days when they met.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 04:24
|
|
|
VanSandman posted:It probably exploded because the duel was so wicked awesome. Sorry i meant the Emperor. I get the impression that the Lion is an amazing fighter, and a general, but his inability to comprehend and understand anyone is his failure. He seems like he expects everyone to fight "honourably". When he fights Curze he is more or less just toying with Curze, and it seems extremely one sided. Then when Curze does something unexpected the Lion has no idea what to do. Did the Lion even really consider Luther his dad? I thought it was more like, a mentor student system, than a father and son system.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 04:41
|
|
|
Improbable Lobster posted:Ferrus Manus apparently fought the Emperor on a mountain for days when they met. I love it when real mythology gets tossed into the stirring pot. Jacob or Ferrus Mannus: Who fought god better?
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 04:43
|
|
|
Luther had full blown warp powers and abilities, similar to Lorgar and Horus, by the time he fought El'Johnson so it was hardly a fair fight. Continuing the Primarch list, Manus should definitely be up there in the top 10. He was suppose to be massive, even for a Primarch, and was able to duel the Emperor to a standstill. Plus he also had snazzy metal jazz hands.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 04:54
|
|
|
The whole "dueling the Emperor to a standstill" thing is really pretty iffy to me. Sure, he did it, but what does that really imply? I mean, once the Emperor realized that Horus was irredeemable he just obliterated Horus basically instantly, do not pass go, do not collect 200 space dollars. The Emperor operates on such a crazy scale of power that "somebody fighting the Emperor to a standstill" really just means that the Emperor chose to drag the fight out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 06:19
|
|
|
Khizan posted:The whole "dueling the Emperor to a standstill" thing is really pretty iffy to me. Sure, he did it, but what does that really imply? I mean, once the Emperor realized that Horus was irredeemable he just obliterated Horus basically instantly, do not pass go, do not collect 200 space dollars. At what point and by what means did Horus mortally wound the Emperor then?
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 06:45
|
|
|
We'll see how the ultimate duel plays out when they give the Assault on Dies Irae to Abnett to turn into a book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 06:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 20:26 |
|
|
That and he could have just been fighting the psychic manifestation of the Emperor while Big E was just sitting on a lawn chair drinking a Mojito. I get that the Emp is what Magnus could be if he just cut loose. If he wanted you dead. You would just be dead with out him lifting a finger.
|
|
#
?
Nov 2, 2013 06:48
|
|
