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rudatron posted:You didn't like that 'anti-fascists were resembling fascists' because they are willing to use violence to achieve their objectives. You dehumanized them as 'being driven by primordial hatred'. My point was that it's a strategic decision and, while I may disagree with it, I disagree with it on the terms of practicality - you disagree with it based on some misguided ideas about how law and order operates, and you essentialize radicals as fundamentally different from ordinary people (which is not the case). I endorsed the use of force against fascists, and actually I give a pretty wide latitude for use of violence against fascists. But I don't endorse indiscriminate force.
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Nov 2, 2013 11:37
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fishmech, what is a confounding factor
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Nov 2, 2013 11:38
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In the very post you quote me from, I also say this:quote:It's not useful right now, because such a situation doesn't yet exist, and trying to bring about its existence would be incredibly cruel and idiotic. A lot of people would die for no real good reason. An internal blanket ban on any kind of leftist future political violence for the purposes of keeping a 'moral highground' (of dubious value) is, however, misguided. The point I'm trying to make is that practicality trumps romantics in these kind of terrible situations. There's way to much of the latter flying around in this thread right now, which I think is counter-productive. Obviously I'd much prefer it if the fascists just gave up and drunk beer instead of intimidating minorities, but reality isn't that simple unfortunately. Stay safe friend. rudatron fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 11:40
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Install Windows posted:Don't allow the material conditions that swell Fascist support to continue. In other words, you need working governments. How do you propose the greek population "not allow the material conditions that swell Fascist support to continue"? It's going to be a bit hard bootstrapping themselves a "working government" when their problem is precisely that their governments are the ones creating those same material conditions because gently caress the working class forever. Everybody talks about how anti fascist violence didn't succeed in Germany. On the other hand in Portugal no one did a loving thing and fascists took over for the next 48 years until someone decided to pick up weapons and do something.
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Nov 2, 2013 12:20
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rudatron posted:Rule of law is contingent on one political ideology having hegemony over the others. When that hegemony no longer exists, a power struggle will necessarily break out. That is one example of when political violence is absolutely necessary. If you're not willing to use it then you will be strung up by fascists. That's how civil wars work. Yes, but what Vernii proposed was that the government should commit mass murder to make an example of GD (nipping them in the bud) when this hegemony isn't actually under threat. Armed conflict in the context of a civil war or a revolutionary-counterrevolutionary situation is something else entirely compared with the systematic murder of political opponents in peacetime. This argument has nothing to do with a blanket ban on all forms of political violence, or the moral high ground. You say systematic mass murder should only be employed when it's useful. How do we determine whether it's useful or not? And useful for whom exactly?
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Nov 2, 2013 13:29
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You treated 'rule of law' as something external to a power struggle, as something that is a result of every person being 'good'. That its status is something that leftists have control over, through their righteousness - that they would hasten it's breakdown through the use of violence. That is a lie. Rule of law is a contingent on systemic hegemony and its ability to legitimize itself. That hegemony is already under threat, and no action on the part of leftists will 'repair' that. The government's hegemony remains for now, but it is under threat from GD. It's support among the police and it's continued growth and flexing of it's muscle against minorities is a symptom of that, but that growth wouldn't have happened if the central greek government had kept its legitimacy, or was as legitimate as any other state right now. There is no such thing as a 'neutral state', and there never will be. There is no such thing as a 'rational subject' and there never will be. Abandon the platonic idealism of 'law' and 'freedom' as separate from human beings and their societies, and instead recognize that these concepts have always been contingent. rudatron fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 14:05
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For what it's worth, it seems to me that outright murdering people (even fascists) is a bad way to go about things. I absolutely agree that the GD should be opposed at every turn, with violence if necessary, but it should be done through e.g. busting up their offices, blocking and harassing their demonstrations, protecting immigrants &c, not through the liquidation of their membership. Going around assassinating people seems, ah, counterproductive. Roughing them up, I could sort of get behind, but killing is a pretty dangerous line to cross.
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Nov 2, 2013 14:16
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rudatron posted:You were the one who treated 'rule of law' as some kind of supernatural status that leftists have control over, through their righteousness - that they would hasten it's breakdown through the use of violence. That is a lie. Rule of law is a contingent on systemic hegemony and its ability to legitimize itself. That hegemony is already under threat, and no action on the part of leftists will 'repair' that. Where did I do that? I wrote nothing about leftists. Vernii argued that the government of Greece should order the systematic murder of GD members. This would entail suspending the rule of law. And yes, I do think that the government suddenly murdering people at will could undermine the stability of just about any country that isn’t already under solid authoritarian rule. It feels as if you’re conflating Vernii’s argument about political mass murder by the state and the recent killings of GD members. Political killings can most certainly be called murder. Are you seriously implying that all political killings take place under circumstances comparable to armed conflict? While it’s true that soldiers don’t murder each other in warfare, political violence isn’t confined to situations comparable to open warfare. You quoted Strudel Man who used the term “systematic murder” without correcting him, saying simply that it [systematic murder] wouldn’t be useful right now. If a government were to round up citizens and simply kill them, then that is most certainly murder, regardless of the ideology of the perpetrators and the victims. The argument that it can’t be murder if it’s political is among the most bizarre things I’ve heard. [Edit: you edited your post as I was writing my reply.] quote:The government's hegemony remains for now, but it is under threat from GD. It's support among the police and it's continued growth and flexing of it's muscle against minorities is a symptom of that, but that growth wouldn't have happened if the central greek government had kept its legitimacy, or was as legitimate as any other state right now. I never said that the state is neutral. My argument, by implication, is that a state that doesn’t murder its citizens at will is preferable to one that does.
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Nov 2, 2013 15:05
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V. Illych L. posted:For what it's worth, it seems to me that outright murdering people (even fascists) is a bad way to go about things. I absolutely agree that the GD should be opposed at every turn, with violence if necessary, but it should be done through e.g. busting up their offices, blocking and harassing their demonstrations, protecting immigrants &c, not through the liquidation of their membership. Yeah, you don't need to kill them all. You just need to fight them, break their poo poo, and in general show the world what giant babies they are. edit: definitely kill some of them though
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Nov 2, 2013 17:47
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:edit: definitely kill some of them though
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Nov 2, 2013 17:51
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Strudel Man posted:Well, sure. What's your favorite way to kill a fascist, would you say? Piano wire is the historical method.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:01
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gently caress's sake, you should only kill Fash in self-defense. Don't let your bloodlust compromise your ideals! 
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Nov 2, 2013 19:04
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Small Frozen Thing posted:gently caress's sake, you only kill Fash in self-defense. Assassinations at this point are beyond the pale. Don't let your bloodlust compromise your ideals! My ideal is a dead fascist.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:05
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Then you're pretty hosed up.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:08
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biglads posted:Piano wire is the historical method.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:14
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I prefer to kill the Fash with sick burns on the internet.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:28
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macho leftist goons are really annoying because like 1% of y'all would ever raise a fist in any situation and pretending anything else is really just you trying to be an internet tough guy I mean same goes for macho right goons I'm sure but I don't read their posts
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Nov 2, 2013 19:31
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eightpole posted:macho leftist goons are really annoying because like 1% of y'all would ever raise a fist in any situation and pretending anything else is really just you trying to be an internet tough guy "Follow your leader." Heh.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:37
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Gonzo McFee posted:My ideal is a dead fascist.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:43
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Ofaloaf posted:Surely the ideal would be for a fascist man to realize the error of his ways, cease to be a fascist and help turn his old friends away from fascism as well. Nope. Dead fascist.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:44
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Gonzo McFee posted:Nope. Dead fascist. But that would have deprived us of Mitterrand. A former fascist who then became the socialist president of France.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:48
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It's important to bear in mind that all the violence you deal out to fascists will be meted out in turn to the most helpless and innocent members of the community: elderly people, street vendors etc. That doesn't rule out violence against them in every situation, but it's worth thinking about every time you find your violent fantasies tending towards the glib.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:49
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SedanChair posted:It's important to bear in mind that all the violence you deal out to fascists will be meted out in turn to the most helpless and innocent members of the community: elderly people, street vendors etc. That doesn't rule out violence against them in every situation, but it's worth thinking about every time you find your violent fantasies tending towards the glib. Yes, because fascists only become violent in response to violence, rather than holding violence as necessary for the health of the individual and the state.
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Nov 2, 2013 20:10
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SedanChair posted:It's important to bear in mind that all the violence you deal out to fascists will be meted out in turn to the most helpless and innocent members of the community: elderly people, street vendors etc. That doesn't rule out violence against them in every situation, but it's worth thinking about every time you find your violent fantasies tending towards the glib. No, don't you see, murdering fascists anywhere and everywhere (and especially on the streets!) will fix unemployment and end the euro crisis but only once the body politic has been purged of these peopl- alright I can't really finish. If you need to swoop in and beat the poo poo out of a fascist because they're picking on some old lady from North Africa or something, by all means, but sitting around fantasizing about murdering others just comes off as ineffective and authoritarian.
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Nov 2, 2013 20:15
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Why not adopt a technocratic and rational approach towards dismantling fascism that begins with comprehensive education and reserves clandestine violence for all but the worst offenders?
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Nov 2, 2013 20:56
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Peven Stan posted:Why not adopt a technocratic and rational approach towards dismantling fascism that begins with comprehensive education and reserves clandestine violence for all but the worst offenders? Not as much fun, apparently. On a more serious note that would be a great long term solution, the only problem is ensuring success in the short term.
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Nov 2, 2013 20:59
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The only way to beat the fascist is to become the fascist.
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Nov 2, 2013 21:05
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Livingtrope posted:The only way to beat the fascist is to become the fascist. We're not going to become fascist, we're just going to empower the state to carry out extrajudicial murder based on political ideology and this will be perfectly safe for everyone else because
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Nov 2, 2013 21:10
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The Fascists just need a sit down and a chat. Look at the success of the TeaDL.
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Nov 2, 2013 21:14
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Panas posted:But that would have deprived us of Mitterrand. A former fascist who then became the socialist president of France. Socialist French Presidents are awful, and hopefully never elected again.
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Nov 2, 2013 21:34
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Peven Stan posted:Why not adopt a technocratic and rational approach towards dismantling fascism that begins with comprehensive education and reserves clandestine violence for all but the worst offenders? That would be great, except the capitalist ruling class doesn't want a functioning society.
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Nov 2, 2013 21:44
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Nonsense posted:Socialist French Presidents are awful, and hopefully never elected again. Marine Le Pen's a better choice tbh
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Nov 2, 2013 21:54
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Proposed thread soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc
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Nov 2, 2013 22:40
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Sakarja posted:It feels as if you’re conflating Vernii’s argument about political mass murder by the state and the recent killings of GD members.  . Small Frozen Thing posted:gently caress's sake, you should only kill Fash in self-defense. Don't let your bloodlust compromise your ideals! I feel you man, I'm actually the opposite of a violent person. I'm certainly not a 'tough guy', internet or otherwise. But this is the world you live in right now. rudatron fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 01:14
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Civilized Fishbot posted:We're not going to become fascist, we're just going to empower the state to carry out extrajudicial murder based on political ideology and this will be perfectly safe for everyone else because They should probably have some kind of cool, intimidating insignias, too. People like those. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 01:20
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rudatron posted:I feel you man, I'm actually the opposite of a violence person. I'm certainly not a 'tough guy', internet or otherwise. But this is the world you live in right now. So what exactly are you going to do when you find yourself face down in a European gutter with a jackboot up your bumhole?
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Nov 3, 2013 01:26
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Die like everyone else, presumably, until America gets annoyed enough/needs something of yours and sends a drone that accidentally blows up your wedding.
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Nov 3, 2013 01:39
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Berke Negri posted:Die like everyone else, presumably, until America gets annoyed enough/needs something of yours and sends a drone that accidentally blows up your wedding.
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Nov 3, 2013 01:41
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Defeating fascism in europe is going to be tricky. You can`t just go around being violent toward anyone who seems suspicious. That will lose you the support of the people. But you can`t just abandon the streets wich is to say the field of battle to them either. So some degree of force even if that means deadly force may be necessary. Ah but the minute you have a political murder on your hands you will be considered to be terrorists and then you are really hosed. Honestly the best solution seems to be false flag attack. Dress up in black gear, pretend to be fascits for a few months and then commit a horrible crime in the name of fascism so as to blacken it`s name. That way the state and the law will have to attack them. It needs to be something so horrific that it cannot be ignored, and it needs to be directed at white people. Give europe a thousand Brevik`s in every country and fascism will lose popular support.
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Nov 3, 2013 01:42
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rudatron posted:If you only kill fash in 'self-defense', you'll do nothing while the fascists take control. Then you'll end up on the gallows. gently caress off with the 'bloodlust' bullshit and realize that not participating in a conflict like this is just losing by default. It's starry eyed optimism without any historical perspective. You really don't sound like you know anything about the world we live in right now.
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Nov 3, 2013 01:44
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