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DFu4ever posted:The first seven or so books are pretty decent, but the big ending doesn't feel like something you've actually built to over the series. It feels more like Erikson repeatedly changed his mind about how things were going to play out since book five, and eventually just had to cobble together something that felt epic. The last couple of books are a slog and the ending doesn't have nearly the impact the finale of a ten book series should have. Yeah I'm not really sure what series you're talking about. Maybe WoT?
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Nov 1, 2013 12:17
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DFu4ever posted:The first seven or so books are pretty decent, but the big ending doesn't feel like something you've actually built to over the series. It feels more like Erikson repeatedly changed his mind about how things were going to play out since book five, and eventually just had to cobble together something that felt epic. The last couple of books are a slog and the ending doesn't have nearly the impact the finale of a ten book series should have. Except, you know, that everything leads up to what is the essence of the Crippled God and how to deal with it. From book 3, MoI, the Crippled God is present in everything that happens and we get to learn more and more about it. Admittedly, I would have like the Forkrul Assail to be more fleshed out, but otherwise he managed to do a cohesive story line over 10 books in 10 years. Something that neither Jordan or GRRM have managed to do.
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Nov 1, 2013 14:06
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:^^^ Yeah I don't agree with that at all, but I am in the malazan thread, so This is an ICE book and it's the one that brings the series to a "close"? Goddammit Erickson you should have planned this poo poo better  e: If you do a re-read a lot of poo poo makes more sense and you see the threads early on that are pulled together into a pattern by the end of the series
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Nov 1, 2013 14:57
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Well frankly, I can't wait for the Malazan encyclopedia so I can finally figure out magic in Malazan. I blame GURPS for Erickson having to keep compulsively adding new stuff whether it be warrens, thrones, holds, houses, hounds, etc. I also wouldn't mind if Blind Guardian comes out with a Malazan song 
amuayse fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Nov 1, 2013 |
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Nov 1, 2013 18:45
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amuayse posted:I also wouldn't mind if Blind Guardian comes out with a Malazan song has to be about gothos being all depressed, though
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Nov 1, 2013 19:22
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amuayse posted:Well frankly, I can't wait for the Malazan encyclopedia so I can finally figure out magic in Malazan. I blame GURPS for Erickson having to keep compulsively adding new stuff whether it be warrens, thrones, holds, houses, hounds, etc. I also wouldn't mind if Blind Guardian comes out with a Malazan song I'm really not sure how any of that is 'compulsively adding new stuff.' Holds were touched on in GotM, for example.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:01
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Habibi posted:I'm really not sure how any of that is 'compulsively adding new stuff.' Holds were touched on in GotM, for example. Yeah nothing he listed there isn't in GotM. GotM should be re-read after reading the rest, theres so much poo poo he slipped in without explanation and which people forget about. EDIT: And most of Tattersails PoV was about how warrens and magic works. "Crack open a warren that that which leaks out is yours to shape." Xachariah fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Nov 1, 2013 |
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Nov 1, 2013 22:34
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apophenium posted:cause that relationship feels kind of forced Well, this isn't solely the purview of Esselmont. Whiskeyjack and that Tiste Andii, Ganoes Paran and Tattersail... there's probably a few more I'm forgetting that were equally bad in BotF.
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Nov 1, 2013 22:41
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Levitate posted:This is an ICE book and it's the one that brings the series to a "close"? Goddammit Erickson you should have planned this poo poo better The ICE books are called the Malazan Empire series or something so I'm guessing it's referring to the Kyle/Crimson Guard story like how Crippled God brought the Book of the Fallen to a close. I'm sure there will be a new series from ICE in addition to Kharkanas and Karsa.
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Nov 1, 2013 22:46
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I hope ICE does the prequel books for the founding days of the Malazan Empire. I think he could do some of those stories justice while Erikson puts out his trilogies. A lot is riding on that Assail book, I don't have too much faith in ICE resolving all the dangling plotlines. Hopefully he's taken some of the criticism to heart about being even more opaque than Erikson with his plot happenings.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:15
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Well, this isn't solely the purview of Esselmont. Whiskeyjack and that Tiste Andii, Ganoes Paran and Tattersail... there's probably a few more I'm forgetting that were equally bad in BotF. I didn't mind those, but the Pearl and Lostara Yil fling was pretty awful.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:27
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Xachariah posted:Yeah nothing he listed there isn't in GotM. GotM should be re-read after reading the rest, theres so much poo poo he slipped in without explanation and which people forget about. I know, it just seems so...ambiguous. One chapter, I'm positively SURE I know what a warren is, and the next second he adds a new twist to it that was sort of hinted vaguely at before.  I don't know, I don't want to be in the dark about everything. Malazan is one of those few series where the average character knows more than the reader.
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Nov 2, 2013 01:46
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amuayse posted:I know, it just seems so...ambiguous. One chapter, I'm positively SURE I know what a warren is, and the next second he adds a new twist to it that was sort of hinted vaguely at before. A warren is a portal to another world/plane/dimension and each one is aspected to a certain kind of magic. Like Teyschren can access the plane/dimension/world of fire and Tattersail can access the one of light. You can travel in the warrens and emerge from them in a different location in the real world. That's pretty much it.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:16
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Yeah, but stuff like interwarren interaction, warrens "rank", warrens being inanimate/animate, warrens relation to the Deck, how some people actually have warrens inside themselves, all that stuff confuses me.
amuayse fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 03:03
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Warrens have chaos in between them and you can move from one to another if they are "close" at that point. I dont think warrens are linked to the deck, Tartheno Thelomen Toblakai can have personal warrens. The two ranks are elder and non-elder and mortals cant use elder unless they have elder blood/souls.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:10
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amuayse posted:Yeah, but stuff like interwarren interaction, warrens "rank", warrens being inanimate/animate, warrens relation to the Deck, how some people actually have warrens inside themselves, all that stuff confuses me. This is why several people recommend rereads before trying to decipher everything. Erikson builds a number of evolving, interacting systems, and there is so much detail buried in the books that a lot of stuff seems to come at you out of nowhere when it has in fact been presaged or foreshadowed books in advance (which, with average page counts over 1000, makes it unsurprising that stuff would fall by the way side). Hell, I missed a few really basic connections until my third reread.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:41
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:Well, this isn't solely the purview of Esselmont. Whiskeyjack and that Tiste Andii, Ganoes Paran and Tattersail... there's probably a few more I'm forgetting that were equally bad in BotF. He did lose me a bit with the whole Ganoes Paran/Tattersail thing. Correct me if I'm wrong because I was loopy on some meds when I read through the first book, but I thought the extent of their contact was Ganoes standing guard over her while she was out of commission, then they had a good gently caress and she went off to do her thing with the idea that they'd try to hook back up again later. I get that they felt a connection, but she's a couple hundred years old, rebounding off a murdered ex, and they barely knew each other... feels weird when after her rebirth it's being played like some kind of deep romance.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:44
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amuayse posted:I know, it just seems so...ambiguous. One chapter, I'm positively SURE I know what a warren is, and the next second he adds a new twist to it that was sort of hinted vaguely at before. That's one of the charms, we don't need to know everything. If you wanna know everything, read Sanderson and stay away from Mieville.
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Nov 2, 2013 08:28
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I like China Mieville. Almost as much as Gene Wolfe.
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Nov 2, 2013 16:03
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There's also the fact that you don't need to know (and in fact can't know, as Forge of Darkness showed most everything we thought we knew was wrong) what goes on behind the scenes with the overall "system" of warrens and whatnot. I have a few criticisms of Erikson but that's not one of them - but readers used to transparent systems like Jordan and Sanderson might be frustrated.
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Nov 2, 2013 18:04
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Just finished tcg. Liked the series overall, with the exception of Hetan's whole hobbling thing. That was way too explicit and honestly completely unnecessary for my taste. Stick to plain old torture, Ericson, there's really no way to add a sexual aspect without making readers step back and think about how creepy and weird it is.
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Nov 2, 2013 22:16
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Crak'd Pot Trail had some rather...interesting points of humor that goes to show how icky Erickson could get.
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Nov 3, 2013 05:40
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Phobeste posted:Just finished tcg. Liked the series overall, with the exception of Hetan's whole hobbling thing. That was way too explicit and honestly completely unnecessary for my taste. Stick to plain old torture, Ericson, there's really no way to add a sexual aspect without making readers step back and think about how creepy and weird it is.
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Nov 3, 2013 05:49
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amuayse posted:I like China Mieville. Almost as much as Gene Wolfe. Then I don't know what to say anymore.... The charm of Erikson for me is how everything is connected in large and small ways as well as the story and the characters. I don't really need a detailed explanation for how everything works, if I wanted science I have my day job for that.
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Nov 3, 2013 06:51
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I started re-reading the series, and was struck once again by the incongruity of Fiddlers age. At the beginning of GotM he is started by Paran to look a few years older than him, when Paran was 12. So lets say he's 16 there. In Deadhouse Gates he is described with grey streaking his beard and he pulls off the middle aged personality pretty drat well. It's 7 years later in the course of most of the story, he should be like 23 years old at best. I imagine him as a middle aged man with a greying beard entirely contrary to the notion that Fiddler is apparently in his early 20's. Did I miss something?
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Nov 3, 2013 07:09
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I imagine it's one of those things that just changed from GotM. I also want to say the Bridgeburners are all older than they look.
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Nov 3, 2013 08:49
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Xachariah posted:I started re-reading the series, and was struck once again by the incongruity of Fiddlers age. At the beginning of GotM he is started by Paran to look a few years older than him, when Paran was 12. So lets say he's 16 there. In Deadhouse Gates he is described with grey streaking his beard and he pulls off the middle aged personality pretty drat well. It's 7 years later in the course of most of the story, he should be like 23 years old at best. Yeah, since Fiddler in the rest of the series is this grizzled veteran. GotM really fucks up the start of the series and should be taken quite lightly. It's kinda impressive though how much it changes from GotM to Deadhouse Gates.
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Nov 3, 2013 08:53
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Yeah, I sometimes wonder if Erickson is actually Thomas Pynchon moonlighting as a fantasy author sometimes.
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Nov 3, 2013 16:42
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e: you could probably take some of that as unreliable narration on Ganoes' part, the magic of Raraku slowing down their aging, and the fact that there really aren't that many contemporaries of Fiddler's who call or see him as old (mostly it's the newbies).Cardiac posted:Yeah, since Fiddler in the rest of the series is this grizzled veteran. GotM really fucks up the start of the series and should be taken quite lightly. Eh, in the big picture that change (and most of the other ones) are pretty insignificant. Most of GotM holds up pretty well, which is fairly impressive considering it was written as a movie script and featured a decade long gap before the next book. e: \/\/\/ I've read Pynchon and I have no idea what you're trying to say here. amuayse posted:Yeah, I sometimes wonder if Erickson is actually Thomas Pynchon moonlighting as a fantasy author sometimes. Habibi fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 16:48
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You have to read all of Gravity's Rainbow to figure out how to figure out what the hell ACHTUNG, The Zone, Pirate, the Schwarzgerät stands for. And you never figure out what the Kenosha Kid is anyways.
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Nov 3, 2013 17:28
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I've stopped at book seven around 6 months ago and it's extremely apparent that I need to go through a re-read, too much has been lost in the process to make it worthwhile to read the remaining three without missing out on critical plot details. I had a look at the OP and recommended reading order, I'd just like some personal recommendations on whether or not I should be picking up the ICE books/novellas and reading them before I embark on re-reading the main series by Erikson? Bridgeburner_ fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 03:14
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If you just care about Eriksson's story you don't need to read the ICE books. They deal with other stuff that's happening at the same time and might fill in a few bits, but are unnecessary to Eriksson's plot. They give you more info on the overall world though
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Nov 4, 2013 04:25
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Habibi posted:e: you could probably take some of that as unreliable narration on Ganoes' part, the magic of Raraku slowing down their aging, and the fact that there really aren't that many contemporaries of Fiddler's who call or see him as old (mostly it's the newbies). Admittedly a slight hyperbole regarding GotM there. GotM is where people start reading Erikson, so I guess it's not surprising that people get confused by the inconistencies. Deadhouse Gates is a much better start and also where I started a long time ago. It kinda says something about the series when people get confused by the first book, but have no problems with Midnight Tides.
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Nov 4, 2013 08:15
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DFu4ever posted:The first seven or so books are pretty decent, but the big ending doesn't feel like something you've actually built to over the series. It feels more like Erikson repeatedly changed his mind about how things were going to play out since book five, and eventually just had to cobble together something that felt epic. The last couple of books are a slog and the ending doesn't have nearly the impact the finale of a ten book series should have. You are not alone. I only slogged through, because I wanted to know if there was a satisfying conclusion. There was, more or less, but if the series was cut down by half, which should be easy by removing the endless philosophizing and most of the cardboard-cutout characters, then it would be a very good and enjoyable read. There are great characters, there are gripping plot lines and heart-wrenching scenes, but there is also a lot of filler material. Also, because there are no really discernible rules to the magic and religious system, the ending kind of makes sense with the explanations Eriksson gives, but he could've pulled a completely different ending out of his rear end and no one would have been the wiser. It's like a mystery/SciFi TV show from the 80's, where they started with a "Monster of the Week" - premise (the first 5 or 6 books)which made the series popular and then tried to add a season or show-spanning arc, because they had run out of monsters and it all ended in a convoluted mess.
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Nov 4, 2013 09:24
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e: ^^^ I mean, that's a little strange given that the over arcing story is hinted at puri strongly throughout the first five books. You should try a reread sometime.Cardiac posted:. Oddly enough, everyone I've met IRL who has read the series has had the exact opposite experience... And frankly, outside the general nature of the book - dumping the reader into the middle of a story with no background info - I am not sure what about it book would be so confusing. Habibi fucked around with this message at 09:39 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 09:32
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Habibi posted:Historically, hasn't most institutionalized violence against women been sexual in nature? That doesn't really mean I want to read about it! Especially when it's the only time it happens, and it doesn't even end up being that meaningful. It drives Tool mad, but let's compare - the only other time in this series that a main character got tortured to death like that was Coltaine's Fall. Which kicked off an entire people into worshipping him, and created its own little warren solely dedicated to it[spoiler]. Whereas with Hetan, her great mercy is... [spoiler]to freeze to death alone. And then magically come back to life later, because why not. I'm not saying that it was historically or sociologically out of place. I'm not saying that something like that wasn't needed in the story. What I am saying is that that specific punishment, and the ongoing graphic descriptions of it, not to mention the tagline every time it's mentioned that she literally has to allow even the camp dogs to rape her is just way over the top.
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Nov 5, 2013 02:31
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Phobeste posted:That doesn't really mean I want to read about it! Especially when it's the only time it happens, and it doesn't even end up being that meaningful. quote:It drives Tool mad, quote:but let's compare - the only other time in this series that a main character got tortured to death like that was Coltaine's Fall. Which kicked off an entire people into worshipping him I'm not sure why it matters particularly whether it happens to a 'main' character (or even what you mean by 'main') or not. We see plenty of characters tortured, sexually and otherwise (the queen of Lether comes to mind). Also: if you're talking about the Khundryl, that worship started some time before Coltaine's fall. quote:and created its own little warren solely dedicated to it quote:Whereas with Hetan, her great mercy is... to freeze to death alone. And then magically come back to life later, because why not. quote:I'm not saying that it was historically or sociologically out of place. I'm not saying that something like that wasn't needed in the story. What I am saying is that that specific punishment, and the ongoing graphic descriptions of it, not to mention the tagline every time it's mentioned that she literally has to allow even the camp dogs to rape her is just way over the top. Similarly, I thought the descriptions of (I'ma spoiler this just in case) the impalings of both the remnants of Coltaine's forces, as well as the children that Kalam and his demon friend stumble onto, were over the top - but while I may have found them distasteful (so too Bidithal's violence) they served to provide a certain perspective regarding the individuals/institutions involved. Habibi fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 7, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 07:00
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Habibi posted:Maybe, but I think the intent was to underscore the barbarism of the Barghast despite what the reader might see as signs of progress and civilization (Humbrall Taur and his kids, Tool, etc.. - being for much of the series our only reference points). So it may be over the top, but I would hesitantly suggest that that reaction is exactly what the point of that sorry episode is. Yeah this was my impression too. It's one of the things Eriksson seems to like to do...give you different views of a people or situation at different times in the story. After MoI you feel like "yeah the Barghasts are badass barbarians blah blah" but as we find out later no they're just straight up barbaric and violent people who revel in their cruelty It's not pretty or enjoyable to read but that doesnt' mean it doesn't have a purpose
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Nov 5, 2013 12:51
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I embrace the destruction of the Barghast. It's like the Aiel from WoT and the Fremen from Dune. Once they served their part in conquest and attempted to "civilize", they lost what they stood for and simply withered away.
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Nov 6, 2013 02:07
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Habibi posted:Yeah well it's a tragic ending (well...). But the 'magic' part is a bit exaggerated. She's brought back by the same mechanism that resurrects thousands of other actors, and it's not like she winds up there by magic - Tool was trying to redeem himself (in his own eyes). You might wanna sort out your quoted text here since the guy you replied to messed up his spoiler tags.
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Nov 7, 2013 13:05
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