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euphronius posted:Why don't you ever see TEs taller than about 6-5 or 6-6. Do they make them tackles if they are even taller? (Or power forwards.) If you're above 6-6 and are athletic enough to be a NFL TE, chances are you're making near the max deal in the NBA. The Puppy Bowl posted:In the interest of stimulating conversation, who do you all see as a player who has the makings of a first ballot HoFer? Obviously a ridiculously speculative question but outlandish assumptions are part of the fun of draft talk. So come who's your favorite of the bunch and why are you so biased towards him? That's always an interesting question. There are a few prospects that seem mediocre at first but sometimes you just feel like they're going to be future HOFers or constant pro bowl recipients. Sometimes I feel these guys aren't found in the top 10, but anywhere in the draft. For instance, Keith Bullock and Brian Urlacher both paled in comparison to Lavar Arrington coming out. Arrington was coming off a great season at Linebacker U, was doing all sorts of crazy poo poo like jumping over the LOS before the snap and getting a sack, and was generally a broad shouldered beast. Urlacher was a speedy safety convert to MLB that people were hesitant to roll the dice on, and Bullock was a sideline to sideline tackler that was getting questioned about his toughness. The equivalent in today's draft would be Clowney versus Trent Murphy or Jackson Jeffcoat. You'd never guess either would be a bigger name, but that's the draft for you.
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Nov 4, 2013 16:07
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euphronius posted:Why don't you ever see TEs taller than about 6-5 or 6-6. Do they make them tackles if they are even taller? (Or power forwards.) Past 6'6 they start to lose the ability to block due to leverage. Also because finding people 1.) that tall, who are 2.) coordinated enough to play professional sports, and 3.) fast enough to line up as a receiver while also 4.) being able to catch AND block but 5.) aren't strong enough to just straight up play on the line is very, very difficult. E: Also the NBA I guess but being 6'7 and athletic with no other skills makes you Joe Alexander which is no way to make a living.
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Nov 4, 2013 16:07
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euphronius posted:Why don't you ever see TEs taller than about 6-5 or 6-6. Do they make them tackles if they are even taller? (Or power forwards.)
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Nov 4, 2013 16:10
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Declan MacManus posted:E: Also the NBA I guess but being 6'7 and athletic with no other skills makes you Joe Alexander which is no way to make a living. Every bench in the league has that one 6'7 athletic dude who gets million dollar pay checks because he dunked really hard on a summer league player once. I imagine he loves his job.
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Nov 4, 2013 16:13
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This is the point in time where I wish I could find that post about Jamarcus and the soaring bird. He failed for a bunch of different reasons, but talent was not one of them and it was not crazy for him to go first in that draft. He just ended up not giving a poo poo about football when he got that big contract and eventually had a codeine addiction.
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Nov 4, 2013 18:59
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It was just a really terrible combination of player personality and franchise.
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Nov 4, 2013 19:06
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I just think that absolving the Raiders of any blame is ignorant in the aftermath of how disturbingly dysfunctional the Raiders organization had become at that point. Colin Kaepernick would have no NFL career if he was drafted into a situation with Lane Kiffin as the head coach and Greg Knapp "developing" him, AND Al Davis in his most ridiculous and senile form. That photo dot gif. It was a three ring circus. For one year, we had the Raiders and Al Davis and the Knicks and Isiah Thomas, and it was glorious.
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Nov 4, 2013 19:09
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I'd like to think Ryan Leaf was a bigger bust than JaMarcus. Dude was hyped so highly, and people kept saying you could easily switch him and Peyton easily for #1 pick. Leaf's "character concerns" got the best of him and he ultimately became hated by his own team.
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Nov 4, 2013 19:13
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mikeraskol posted:This is the point in time where I wish I could find that post about Jamarcus and the soaring bird. He failed for a bunch of different reasons, but talent was not one of them and it was not crazy for him to go first in that draft. He just ended up not giving a poo poo about football when he got that big contract and eventually had a codeine addiction. I'm fairly sure I heard that the Raiders knew Jamarcus had a codeine addiction when they drafted him
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Nov 4, 2013 19:13
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seiferguy posted:I'd like to think Ryan Leaf was a bigger bust than JaMarcus. Dude was hyped so highly, and people kept saying you could easily switch him and Peyton easily for #1 pick. Leaf's "character concerns" got the best of him and he ultimately became hated by his own team. He was. In terms of actual money, Bradford seems to be the worst bust followed closely by Russell and anyone else picked in the top 5 until the rookie wage scale fell in place. But in terms of actual hype and devastation to a franchise, Leaf takes the cake. This was just when the draft was becoming super popular too, so it hurt even more when all these talking heads were wrong about Leaf. Leaf was the more popular player from a weaker school. Peyton was the son of Archie while Leaf was this blue collared good ol' boy from Montana. Peyton had NFL PRO STYLE OFFENSE and SMART under his belt while Leaf had a cannon and bombed it all over the place. It was almost as if people wanted Leaf to show up Peyton and be the next big thing in the NFL, which made it hurt so much more when he collapsed. And he didn't collapse like Bradford or Russell by just playing poorly then getting cut. Nope, Leaf blew up in the locker room, on national TV, and fell into severe drug use and criminal activity. No one is a bigger bust than Leaf, and the only person close to him is Tony Mandarich followed maybe by Robert Gallery, then a distant fourth is Russell/Bradford.
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Nov 4, 2013 19:20
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Sam Bradford isn't that great but come on you can't compare him to JaMarcus Russell. Honestly, I wouldn't even call Sam Bradford a bust yet - he played pretty well this season and has been hovering around average to maybe a dip below average his whole career. JaMarcus and Ryan Leaf were so much worse than he is. Even David Carr's a worse "bust" than Sam Bradford.
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Nov 4, 2013 19:22
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seiferguy posted:I'd like to think Ryan Leaf was a bigger bust than JaMarcus. Dude was hyped so highly, and people kept saying you could easily switch him and Peyton easily for #1 pick. Leaf's "character concerns" got the best of him and he ultimately became hated by his own team. Hell, Ryan Leaf was getting targeted and speared in training camp because the Chargers hated him so much. But yeah, Ryan Leaf blows other busts away. 2tds, 15ints, a 45% completion rate. Those are stats you'd expect from a bad quarterback in the 1950s, not in the modern NFL. He makes guys like Gabbert and Ponder look decent in comparison. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LeafRy00.htm
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Nov 4, 2013 19:23
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JaMarcus and Ryan are 1 and 1A. Every other bust wishes they could bust as hard as those two...they're in their own stratosphere as far as I am concerned.
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Nov 4, 2013 19:24
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I feel like it's much easier to bust for the Raiders than the Chargers which really elevates Leaf for me. Plus the door isn't really closed on Jamarcus like it is on Leaf. 
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Nov 4, 2013 19:31
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Kirios posted:Even David Carr's a worse "bust" than Sam Bradford. I don't consider Carr a bust at all because he had absolutely no chance at succeeding behind that line (or with the Texans in general).
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Nov 4, 2013 19:33
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Doltos posted:He was. In terms of actual money, Bradford seems to be the worst bust followed closely by Russell and anyone else picked in the top 5 until the rookie wage scale fell in place. But in terms of actual hype and devastation to a franchise, Leaf takes the cake. This was just when the draft was becoming super popular too, so it hurt even more when all these talking heads were wrong about Leaf. I thought calling Bradford not just a lock-in bust, but the biggest financial bust in NFL history was the dumbest thing I would read all day, and then you said that Gallery was a worse pick for the Raiders than Russell. 
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Nov 4, 2013 19:37
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Kirios posted:Sam Bradford isn't that great but come on you can't compare him to JaMarcus Russell. Honestly, I wouldn't even call Sam Bradford a bust yet - he played pretty well this season and has been hovering around average to maybe a dip below average his whole career. JaMarcus and Ryan Leaf were so much worse than he is. Bradford is a bust due to being the highest paid rookie of all time and doing jack squat with the Rams. It's the same concept with Russell. Carr got the raw end of the deal because the Texans wanted to field a vertical attack offense from the get go to attract fans. They completely neglected the O-line to the point where most of AJ80's rookie receptions were deep tosses as Carr was frantically trying not to die. Volkerball posted:I thought calling Bradford not just a lock-in bust, but the biggest financial bust in NFL history was the dumbest thing I would read all day, and then you said that Gallery was a worse pick for the Raiders than Russell. I like to put LT busts up there because casual fans hate offensive line picks in the top 5, especially if they end up sucking. Mandarich and Gallery were both seen as franchise saviors who the fans would tolerate a high pick going towards and they both failed spectacularly. Jason Smith would be up there except he never showcased top 5 talent and the Rams deserved what they got. Edit: I also like to grade busts based on realistic expectations. I think several LSU fans even admitted that they didn't know why Russell was going #1 overall at the time. I drank the poison on Russell but realistically speaking, his ceiling was never higher than top 15 QB. Doltos fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 19:40
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Volkerball posted:I thought calling Bradford not just a lock-in bust, but the biggest financial bust in NFL history was the dumbest thing I would read all day, and then you said that Gallery was a worse pick for the Raiders than Russell. Who is a bigger financial bust than Bradford? He signed the most guaranteed money for a rookie ever and has not had near the amount of success that would justify it. If his cap cost was lower they probably would've drafted RG3 and traded or just benched Bradford but he was too expensive to do that with. He's not terrible, but not good either and he costs way too much for what they get in return. I'm pretty sure that's why he specified financial bust. And he didn't say anything about Gallery being a worse pick, just Gallery was a bigger bust. Considering the fact that Gallery was considered one of the greatest linemen in college football history, the fact that he became a terrible tackle and mediocre guard in his short NFL career constitutes a bigger bust than Russell. At least, it's fair to make that assessment.
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Nov 4, 2013 19:47
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It's kinda cool that all the Raiders draft picks pre-rookie wage scale busted out of the NFL so now the Raiders have no horrible contracts to deal with
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Nov 4, 2013 19:50
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Doltos posted:Bradford is a bust due to being the highest paid rookie of all time and doing jack squat with the Rams. It's the same concept with Russell. The curse of the early declaration strikes again. Bradford is 25 and has a 90 QB rating with no receiving help. Chill out. quote:I like to put LT busts up there because casual fans hate offensive line picks in the top 5, especially if they end up sucking. Mandarich and Gallery were both seen as franchise saviors who the fans would tolerate a high pick going towards and they both failed spectacularly. Jason Smith would be up there except he never showcased top 5 talent and the Rams deserved what they got. No, Mandarich failed spectacularly. Gallery moved to guard, started for years, and was the best lineman on a top 5 rushing team. He was maybe worth a 2nd or 3rd. Not one of those guys who was never worthy of a roster spot like a true bust. Also, Jamarcus' laziness became a wedge issue in the locker room, and no FA's would sign, players quit on the team, guys were talking poo poo about each other on the record, etc. Of all the decade of sadness, 2008 and 2009 were by far the most publicly embarrassing. Then they cleaned house and the Raiders went 8-8 and swept the division in 2010. Jamarcus had a fair opportunity to make that team, but he showed up to camp fat, and got cut pretty early into camp after showing he wasn't going to be bringing any more effort than he ever did. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 19:51
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Disillusionist posted:Who is a bigger financial bust than Bradford? He signed the most guaranteed money for a rookie ever and has not had near the amount of success that would justify it. If his cap cost was lower they probably would've drafted RG3 and traded or just benched Bradford but he was too expensive to do that with. He's not terrible, but not good either and he costs way too much for what they get in return. I'm pretty sure that's why he specified financial bust. Jamarcus made 100k per completion, 10k per passing yard, and 2.1 million per TD pass. And Jamarcus had the physical tools to be literally the best QB of all time, and everyone was saying it then. How are people not getting this?
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Nov 4, 2013 19:53
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People also forget that the Chargers gave up like three first rounders to draft Leaf which further sank the franchise into the toilet and it took Marty and Tomlinson to drag them out of it. Leaf also has worse statistical numbers than Jamarcus who for some reason was bad except when he played at Denver
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Nov 4, 2013 20:03
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Volkerball posted:The curse of the early declaration strikes again. Bradford is 25 and has a 90 QB rating with no receiving help. Chill out. code:
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Nov 4, 2013 20:20
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Those guys are all poo poo. Cook has upside, but he did in Tennessee too, where he similarly disappeared for long stretches. Austin is Ted Ginn 2.0. Quick is insanely raw. I don't mean to say it so bluntly, I guess, but the Rams are probably as bad at finding wide receiving talent as Andy Reid was in the 00s. Which is a shame considering what the Rams used to be. e: Rams receivers have dropped 23 passes this season, according to Sporting Charts, including Tavon Austin who leads the league with 7 drops. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 20:23
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How did Tavon Austin become Ted Ginn 2.0 after a half season with Brian Schottenheimer? That seems like a harsh judgement done way too early
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Nov 4, 2013 20:30
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I give the Rams credit for at least trying to give him weapons though, specifically since my team has drafted exactly 2 receiving options with a high draft pick in the past decade, Dustin Keller and Stephen Hill. 
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Nov 4, 2013 20:31
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Draft crushes die hard I guess, but I maintain that Austin still has potential in a system that would actually move him around creatively like they did at West Virginia. That system is not in St. Louis, but that's on Fisher and Schotty, not Snead for drafting him.
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Nov 4, 2013 20:35
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Wario Kart 64 posted:How did Tavon Austin become Ted Ginn 2.0 after a half season with Brian Schottenheimer? That seems like a harsh judgement done way too early His per catch average is an anemic 6.7, which ranks 144th of 149 qualified players and is the lowest YPC for any WR. The 2nd lowest belongs to Cordarelle Patterson, whose average is 9.1. So Austin is in his own special, reserved garbage tier all to himself. e: It reminds me of when Dexter McCluster came into the NFL, except McCluster ran a really poor 40 time so I don't think anyone was particularly shocked that his small size and lack of burst would render him ineffective as a versatile mismatch. Austin at least ran a blazing fast 4.3 so the speed is there. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 20:37
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Also Keenan Allen owns and is basically San Diego's new #1 WR and I'm glad we drafted him
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Nov 4, 2013 20:43
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Drafting wide receivers in the first round owns pretty hard, guys.
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Nov 4, 2013 20:59
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bhsman posted:Drafting wide receivers in the first round owns pretty hard, guys. Drafting 3rd round prospects in the first, however, does not.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:01
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Wario Kart 64 posted:How did Tavon Austin become Ted Ginn 2.0 after a half season with Brian Schottenheimer? That seems like a harsh judgement done way too early Schottenheimer's offense is a disaster; he expects Austin to catch slants 3, 4 yards up the field and elude multiple defenders. This is despite the fact that no other receiver on that team can stretch a defense to open up space for Austin to operate. Austin would be ideal for this role but, well, Schottenheimer. That said, Austin has also been bad. He runs busted routes, hasn't been able to elude defenders, and drops the ball far too often. He's also been a total non-factor on returns, which is a big red flag for a guy who's entire game is based on speed and elusiveness. Contrast Austin with T.Y. Hilton. Even if Hilton was playing in the Rams offense, you still wouldn't have doubts about his ability given what he does on returns. Even if Austin does turn into a productive T.Y. Hilton type receiver, he will never ever warrant his draft position or what they gave up to get him. Especially when they could've traded down for a Coradelle Patterson, who looks like he has the same tools as Austin without being a midget. So Ted Ginn isn't a bad comparison for Austin, in that he's a guy that might be able to do some stuff for your team someday but his ceiling is slot receiver at best. Emanuel Collective fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 21:04
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SteelAngel2000 posted:Also Keenan Allen owns and is basically San Diego's new #1 WR and I'm glad we drafted him If he keeps going at the pace he's at he's got an outside shot to break 1000 yards for the year, which is pretty impressive when you consider he basically didn't get on the field at all for the first 4 games of the season. I'm happy that the knee injury didn't end up holding him back in the pros and that he ended up on a team that I can feel good about rooting for him to succeed on. Come to think of it, you could field a pretty ridiculous offense with former Cal players currently in the NFL right now. QB: Aaron Rodgers RB1: Marshawn Lynch RB2: Shane Vereen WR1: Desean Jackson WR2: Keenan Allen WR3: Marvin Jones TE: Tony Gonzalez You'd have to cheat a bit for the OL because only Mack, Schwartz, and De La Puente are starters right now, but for skill positions that'd be a pretty dominant unit.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:04
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Volkerball posted:Drafting 3rd round prospects in the first, however, does not. First round prospects in the third, however 
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Nov 4, 2013 21:05
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Grozz Nuy posted:If he keeps going at the pace he's at he's got an outside shot to break 1000 yards for the year, which is pretty impressive when you consider he basically didn't get on the field at all for the first 4 games of the season. I'm happy that the knee injury didn't end up holding him back in the pros and that he ended up on a team that I can feel good about rooting for him to succeed on. IR: Jahvid Best
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Nov 4, 2013 21:06
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SteelAngel2000 posted:IR: Jahvid Best Ugh, don't remind me. Best was one of the most exciting college players I've ever seen, every time he touched the ball there was a chance he'd juke about 8 guys on the way to taking it to the house. It's such a shame what happened to the poor guy.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:10
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SteelAngel2000 posted:Also Keenan Allen owns and is basically San Diego's new #1 WR and I'm glad we drafted him Edit: Beaten. Keenan Allen owns and I wish Baltimore drafted him instead of Matt Elam.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:11
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Grozz Nuy posted:Ugh, don't remind me. Best was one of the most exciting college players I've ever seen, every time he touched the ball there was a chance he'd juke about 8 guys on the way to taking it to the house. It's such a shame what happened to the poor guy. I'm pretty sure he was on the Cal team that beat Oregon that one year, that was awesome
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Nov 4, 2013 21:13
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SteelAngel2000 posted:I'm pretty sure he was on the Cal team that beat Oregon that one year, that was awesome He was! He and Vereen were both on the team at the time actually, that was 2008. Kind of the last year before it all started unraveling, too.  That was a pretty tame game for Best by his standards though, in comparison with this one, which I attended in person and will always be my indelible memory of him. 22 touches for an average of almost 11 yards per play. 
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Nov 4, 2013 21:22
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SteelAngel2000 posted:First round prospects in the third, however Somewhere, my friend who is a Cowboys fan nods knowingly.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:36
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