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thorf posted:Wildbow's probably going to keep Taylor's fate ambiguous until the very end. Noelle isn't Taylor. Basically is what it comes down to. Their situations while broadly similar aren't the same, nor is the situation surrounding them.
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Nov 3, 2013 06:25
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The nature of the hazard offered is however, similar. A powerful parahuman whose mental stability is going down and whose power can grow exponentially. There is no right thing to do, only different kinds of wrong. You could let her live, allowing one person's continued existence(with it being unclear if there's still anyone in there to protect) to endanger all surviving humanity, or kill her, ending the threat but doing harm only to a victim of the entire business.
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Nov 3, 2013 07:04
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Again, if the likes of Nilbog and the Faerie Queen can be extended amnesty it's beyound hipocritcal for Taylor to not get the same chance. Noelle had already gone ballistic when she got put down. Taylor was on the edge, but there was no indication she was totally unsalavagable, aside from Contessa's intuition, which is pretty drat falable. On top of that, most of the other potential S-Class threats in the world are either tragic accidents (Nilbog, Noelle), total mysteries (Sleeper, Endbriners) or selfish/self interested scum (Scion, S9). Taylor was something new, whatever threat she posed, she only posed because she broke herself in half for the sake of saving the human race. She chose to go totally round the bend rather than accept humanity coming to an end. Humanity can go gently caress its self if they don't at least try to help her, whatever state she might be left in.
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Nov 3, 2013 07:30
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veekie posted:The nature of the hazard offered is however, similar. A powerful parahuman whose mental stability is going down and whose power can grow exponentially. There is no right thing to do, only different kinds of wrong. Except Taylors limits are fairly closely defined. That might change, in time, but she's not hard to keep contained so long as you're careful. Sixteen foot radius and trust issues. Keep her the gently caress away from teleporters, or door makers or things of that nature. Hell, when you get right down to it. The easiest way to keep her contained is a prison of normals. Even better would be drones given she can only command organics. No powers there, just the bugs to worry about and, well, with all the tinkers shouldn't be a big problem to work out some bug repelling trick of some sort. Basically she deserves at least the attempt. Not a bullet in the brain from god drat Contessa of all people.
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Nov 3, 2013 07:54
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Blinks77 posted:Except Taylors limits are fairly closely defined. That might change, in time, but she's not hard to keep contained so long as you're careful. Sixteen foot radius and trust issues. While I defiantly agree that Taylor deserves better the idea that you could ever render her anything other than horrendously dangerous is kinda hilarious. Considering how many times people throughout the story attempted to, and failed miserably at doing just that.
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Nov 3, 2013 08:11
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We're talking about quite different kinds of crazy here. You have those whose trigger occurred too young in life and gave them powers before they finished developing their sense of self. Alexendria, Glaistig Uaine, Bonesaw, Contessa. All of them are fundamentally still children, they never grew up because they never had to. They are dangerous because it's a kid with a very dangerous weapon. If they are willing, they can be brought past that. You have the sociopaths given power. Those who were unable to care for anything but their self gratification in the first place, and who obtained power to match. Crawler, Jack, Hookwolf, Lung. These are generally speaking, incurable and unlikely to desire a cure. The less aggressive ones can have a role in the frontier regions, where their aggressions can be directed towards wildlife and generally kept out of the way. The more aggressive sort would eventually force you to kill them. You have the megalomaniacs. Those who just want to rule and dominate, for whatever reason. They need to be on top of the totem pole. Accord, Teacher, Yangban leaders, possibly poor misguided Eidolon. They are more eventual threats, most of them are quite stable, only they'd eventually stab you in the back to get theirs. Can't do anything about them because they are about their power base, not their personal ability. They're actually quite useful in the rebuilding really. They do want everything fixed up. No point ruling an empty wasteland. You have the broken. Those so damaged by one cause or another that they can't form meaningful human relationships. Bitch, Doormaker, Clairvoyant, Labyrinth, Burnscar possibly Nilbog, Regent and Cherish as well. A role can be found for them, and ways to connect to them obtained. They're dangerous because they can't care about you as a person. Depending on the extent of their damage, some accommodation might be found...some might not. Then you have those whose minds aren't human anymore, at least, not the part of their minds/bodies that have a say. Sveta, Khepri, Echidna, possibly Ash Beast. They can't help being a threat, either you can contain their powers(Sveta), or their power tends towards the uncontainable(Khepri and Echidna both go exponential in power growth given the right resources). What can you do? Make sure they aren't a threat, and that they don't suffer more than they have to in the process. They have limited volition and really can't make a choice, or follow through if they did make that choice. So they could live, if the equivalent of Sveta's little ball(incidentally it made me think of a pokeball) can be arranged. EDIT: So it basically boils down to how containable do you rate them. veekie fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 08:21
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veekie posted:Then you have those whose minds aren't human anymore, at least, not the part of their minds/bodies that have a say. Sveta, Khepri, Echidna, possibly Ash Beast. They can't help being a threat, either you can contain their powers(Sveta), or their power tends towards the uncontainable(Khepri and Echidna both go exponential in power growth given the right resources). What can you do? Make sure they aren't a threat, and that they don't suffer more than they have to in the process. They have limited volition and really can't make a choice, or follow through if they did make that choice. So they could live, if the equivalent of Sveta's little ball(incidentally it made me think of a pokeball) can be arranged. I think you're over estimating just how far gone Taylor was. Even still, Taylor is unique in that among all parahumans (that we know of) in that she chose time and time again to sacrifice for the sake of others. Even to the point of unraveling her own sanity. All of the Case 53's were always bitching about how they never got a "choice". Sveta even said that if he could have chosen she would have declined. Unable to face the burden of all the deaths she'd incurred, even if the flip side was maybe stopping something like Scion. Taylor accepted that rational, if terrible reality and walked into it with both eyes open. She deserves something better than to just be put down like another sad monster because she was both the monster people needed and that she consciously choose to be. Everyone else in the story only ever managed to be one or the other, at best. And again the idea that Contessa, of all people would be the one to make that call considering how laughably ineffective she'd was is just ludicrous.
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Nov 3, 2013 08:40
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Contessa pretty much made Taylor in the first place. Many many many of her choices ended up creating the situations that made Taylor who she became. Contessa was just totally unaware that Taylor was the actual reason her power was feeding her those actions. Just another thing that makes the idea of Contessa actually killing Taylor even more awful and hosed up.
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Nov 3, 2013 09:00
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Contessa is the parahuman known to have the power to find solutions. Who ELSE can be sure make the best choice? People in the setting think of parahumans in terms of their powers. Contessa and Number Man are the highest grade Thinkers available.
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Nov 3, 2013 09:15
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Just saying, an uncontrollable alien monster inhabiting a teenage girls body does not answer the question "do you deserve to live." with "I honestly don't know." So either Contessa made the choice without her power and killed Taylor, which would be a mistake, or she did use her power and Taylor is alive. It doesn't hurt that, thanks to the utterly reality defying nature of these powers, being unable to accomplish anything let alone fix a teenage girls brain is actually outside of the realm of possibility, because loving anything is possible. So either Taylor is alive, or Contessa is a loving idiot and a jerk.
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Nov 3, 2013 09:24
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NecroMonster posted:So either Taylor is alive, or Contessa is a loving idiot and a jerk. Pretty much this. You'd think that after how everything went down Contessa would have learned at least [i]something/i] about humility. She has been way too smug for the entirety of the story up to this point.
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Nov 3, 2013 09:49
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NecroMonster posted:Contessa pretty much made Taylor in the first place. Many many many of her choices ended up creating the situations that made Taylor who she became. Contessa was just totally unaware that Taylor was the actual reason her power was feeding her those actions. I think I'd debate this point at least. It just so happened that the Undersiders stumbled on a Cauldron plot, but I think Taylor's general pragmatism and bloody mindedness would have led her down a similar path even without Coil being in the picture. Edit: Although I guess you could make the argument that without the turning point that was murdering Coil she might not have had the flexibility of mind needed to let her chose the necessary path at the end there. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 09:53
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To some extent, everything that led up to this point was a game of dominoes played by Contessa(blindly) and Simurgh(inhumanly). Cauldron and Simurgh could be traced back to most of Taylor's formative experiences, creating and developing the tools for the final challenge.
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Nov 3, 2013 12:17
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Skippy McPants posted:I think I'd debate this point at least. It just so happened that the Undersiders stumbled on a Cauldron plot, but I think Taylor's general pragmatism and bloody mindedness would have led her down a similar path even without Coil being in the picture. Accord knew as well and he was trying to help them along, the Simurgh assassinated him for that. If we assume the Simurgh still wants to maximize conflict, and that Taylor is actually dead, it could just be that she needed an air gun to push her in the right direction. I somehow doubt the glass tube is somehow just an air gun though, so Taylor is almost definitely still alive. It also means her staying alive would result in greater conflict, which is not necessarily a bad thing considering how parahumans could literally take over entire worlds at this point.
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Nov 3, 2013 19:22
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Algid posted:No, they knew that Coil and the undersiders were important, and that they couldn't interfere with their development too overtly. It's probably the same general sense Dinah got of Taylor. There's a catch with that - Eidolon died between those two events, at which point the Endbringers basically gave up on everything. I don't think we can assume that the Simurgh was operating according to her original objectives when she saved Taylor.
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Nov 3, 2013 19:52
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Darth Walrus posted:There's a catch with that - Eidolon died between those two events, at which point the Endbringers basically gave up on everything. I don't think we can assume that the Simurgh was operating according to her original objectives when she saved Taylor.
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Nov 3, 2013 20:01
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Algid posted:The difference wasn't just that Eidolon died, it was Scion killing everyone. They were meant to promote conflict by shoring up the weaker side and acting to test powers at critical point of conflict without just taking the shortest path and destroying their opponents. Did they have a function that developed? I thought they just existed to be enemies for Eidolon to have a proper fight against.
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Nov 3, 2013 20:08
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Darth Walrus posted:Did they have a function that developed? I thought they just existed to be enemies for Eidolon to have a proper fight against. That's why the endbringers always held back unless they were truly challenged, they weren't there to destroy the world, just to apply enough pressure to test the shards that were planted in people.
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Nov 3, 2013 21:06
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Which means that the Endbringers are more or less on their own now to figure out wtf to do with themselves. The buildup to the first Leviathan attack is still one of my favorite parts of the serial. I don't think anything else matches the mountain of tension that managed, was the first time things really moved to an epic scale. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 21:28
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Skippy McPants posted:I think I'd debate this point at least. It just so happened that the Undersiders stumbled on a Cauldron plot, but I think Taylor's general pragmatism and bloody mindedness would have led her down a similar path even without Coil being in the picture. I'm going to spell this out because a lot of people miss it anyway, it is subtle as hell, so it's ok to not really get it. Contessa gets the third entities "path" shard. Contessa uses the shard to kill the third entity. Contessa and Doctor Mother form Cauldron, learn to process Eden's body in order to grant powers. Contessa chooses people as candidates for tests of Cauldron's formula, amongst these are; Hero, Legend, Eidolon, and Alexandria. Alexandria forms the Protectorate, Wards, and PRT with the help of Cauldron resources. The Wards offer pardons to underage capes who commit crimes. One of these pardons is given to Sophia Hess. Sophia Hess is the catalyst for the victimization of Taylor Hebert. The victimization of Taylor Hebert leads to Taylor both triggering and adopting her primary anchor. This is leaving out the more direct effect Contessa had on Lung (both his triggering, and the loss of his original gang, which causes him to adopt the coping mechanism that he does), and the placement and growth of Coil. Also the creation of the Endbringers and the machinizations of The Simurgh, which may also have their roots in Contessa's actions. NecroMonster fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 00:49
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NecroMonster posted:I'm going to spell this out because a lot of people miss it anyway, it is subtle as hell, so it's ok to not really get it. Isn't, "You can't force a trigger event," one of the rules of Worm? Or is that a lie perpetuated by the PRT so that kids don't throw themselves off of bridges?
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Nov 4, 2013 01:43
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thorf posted:Isn't, "You can't force a trigger event," one of the rules of Worm? Or is that a lie perpetuated by the PRT so that kids don't throw themselves off of bridges? The problem with trying to force trigger events is that if the person in question knows that you're trying to force a trigger event it won't work, because they know that the pain/isolation/horrible trauma will end so it isn't as bad. If this is an external organization trying to force it and the subject doesn't know they're not likely to be very happy with you afterwards and you're almost certain to end up with a parahuman out to do terrible things to you. Bonesaw was able to force trigger events occasionally because her victims had absolutely no hope for escaping the horror.
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Nov 4, 2013 01:50
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Yeah triggers being impossible to force are a psychological thing. As long as the subject is expecting it at all, it can't work.
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Nov 4, 2013 02:04
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Hell, Contessa even succeeded at forcing second triggers on more than one occasion, at least if Doctor Mother is to be believed. Besides, no one really "forced" Taylor to have a trigger event. Forcing a trigger implies intent, and no one intended to cause Taylor to trigger. NecroMonster fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 02:11
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Intended, probably not, but it's staged by precognition, set up, even if the person moving the pieces don't know how the movements would lead to victory.
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Nov 4, 2013 02:16
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veekie posted:Intended, probably not, but it's staged by precognition, set up, even if the person moving the pieces don't know how the movements would lead to victory. If the path to victory precludes the path to victory from happening the shard is probably not going to suggest that it is the path to victory. If "You can't intentionally trigger someone." was a rule, the shard would probably just have to find a path around that. Edit: Hell, we actually saw Skidmark (?) trying intentionally to make people trigger and it working. That's how Scrub triggered. NinjaDebugger fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 02:27
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Well, triggers are caused by extreme stress in the subject, a situation they can't escape given everything they know. Simply knowing they might trigger would reduce the stress...unless for example, you had zero concern for the well being of the subject and torment them onto death.
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Nov 4, 2013 02:34
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veekie posted:unless for example, you had zero concern for the well being of the subject and torment them onto death. And even that won't work nearly 100% of the time, assuming you get people who can trigger in the first place. Unless you are Contessa of course. She has the power to cheat.
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Nov 4, 2013 02:44
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NecroMonster posted:I'm going to spell this out because a lot of people miss it anyway, it is subtle as hell, so it's ok to not really get it.
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Nov 4, 2013 03:21
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Funny thing about how the Path to Victory worked, they're basically shooting blind because things that look like they are going wrong may in fact be working exactly as intended. Or they might be deviating in a small but fatal way due to the interaction of a precog-immune entity.
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Nov 4, 2013 03:26
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Well it's not like Contessa is a total idiot, she might have figured out that Coil was important not because of Coil but because of the Undersiders, but she really didn't know that a great deal of her choices focused on creating Taylor. Hell, Contessa and Cauldron thought the whole thing was a failure after Taylor turned herself in to the PRT. It's important to remember that Contessaa doesn't know why "the path" feeds her the actions it does, either because it cannot answer that, or because Contessa never asked.
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Nov 4, 2013 03:27
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Belated realization, back at the Behemoth battle. Contessa froze up when Taylor wound up opposing her because she just realized that her path to victory against scion directly conflicted with her path to victory when killing Taylor. Taylor assumed it was because her swarm cornered Contessa.
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Nov 4, 2013 03:32
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NecroMonster posted:Well it's not like Contessa is a total idiot, she might have figured out that Coil was important not because of Coil but because of the Undersiders, but she really didn't know that a great deal of her choices focused on creating Taylor.
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Nov 4, 2013 03:32
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NecroMonster posted:I'm going to spell this out because a lot of people miss it anyway, it is subtle as hell, so it's ok to not really get it. Eh? I thought she got the shard from and neutered/braindeaded (but not killed) the second entity.
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Nov 4, 2013 20:30
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thespaceinvader posted:Eh? I thought she got the shard from and neutered/braindeaded (but not killed) the second entity. You are right, it's a typo.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:36
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So that's the reason why Imp's been getting smarter. Also, drat the Heartbroken have vicious power.
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Nov 5, 2013 06:26
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Once again it's driven in that the Heartbroken family life was dysfunctional on an unbelievable level 
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Nov 5, 2013 06:46
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How has someone not killed teacher yet? He's had to have pissed off enough people by now.
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Nov 5, 2013 06:49
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Probably for the same reason nobody offed the other supervillains who're making a show of collaboration. If you start a witch hunt, collaboration on the reconstruction falls apart, and Teacher has too much in the way of resources for a solo effort to take him out easily.
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Nov 5, 2013 06:58
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Algid posted:How has someone not killed teacher yet? He's had to have pissed off enough people by now. Please, that's for the sequel 
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Nov 5, 2013 06:59
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