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Pidmon posted:So, hang on a second. The only thing that seems to carry over for other characters in the game when switching from the Blue Columbia (based on the background icons of the native weapons, mind you) to the Red one, is if they died in Blue and are still alive in Red.
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Nov 6, 2013 21:35
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Pidmon posted:So, hang on a second. The only thing that seems to carry over for other characters in the game when switching from the Blue Columbia (based on the background icons of the native weapons, mind you) to the Red one, is if they died in Blue and are still alive in Red. Because Booker hasn't thought that far ahead, probably.
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Nov 6, 2013 21:36
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I assume his plan is to get Red Lin Chen to make the weapons and then take them back through the portal between worlds to Blue Daisy Fitzroy somehow.
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Nov 6, 2013 21:36
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What I've always wondered is why they never thought of just getting a different airship. Instead of getting the guns, then rescuing Chen Lin, then sliding to a different dimension, JUST GET A DIFFERENT BLIMP. Steal the barbershop quartet ship for fucks sake.
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Nov 6, 2013 21:43
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Pidmon posted:So, hang on a second. The only thing that seems to carry over for other characters in the game when switching from the Blue Columbia (based on the background icons of the native weapons, mind you) to the Red one, is if they died in Blue and are still alive in Red. That... is an excellent question. Remember that Booker is having a lot of trouble already with wrapping his head around this "alternate realities" hooha, perhaps out of a willful ignorance of the implications so he doesn't just go crazy, so it could be that he just hasn't reasoned that far ahead. (Neither has Elizabeth, to be fair.) Remember that this is the only thing Booker can think of to get off this crazy (and getting crazier) island, so he's clinging to what he has to do that much harder so he can keep all this weird poo poo from getting to him.
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Nov 6, 2013 21:44
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GenHavoc posted:I assume his plan is to get Red Lin Chen to make the weapons and then take them back through the portal between worlds to Blue Daisy Fitzroy somehow. That would be my assumption as well. Booker's totally winging it at this point, though. He's desperate enough to totally rely on the erratic supernatural abilities of a teenage girl, and dive into another reality without knowing what's there. Booker takes the first available path open to him. He's not really making any plans or choosing anything, but driving down a path with no turn-offs. Is a man with no meaningful choices available to him different from a man with no free will?
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Nov 6, 2013 21:45
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I loved when I realized that Chen Lin is alive in this one because he married a different woman. Should be fun spotting all the other things that are slightly different now that I'm not playing and able to pay attention to the little details 
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Nov 6, 2013 22:06
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I know this is from a while back, but the voice in Booker's flashback/forward/sideways in his office sounds like two voices, a man and a woman speaking at once. Maybe it's the Lutece twins?
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Nov 7, 2013 00:38
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The thing I hate about bioshock games is how one fetch quest becomes 5 nested fetch quests where it turns out everything you're looking for is gone and you now need this other thing hiding behind 6 more waves of identical human chaff. They never throw you a bone and just let you get on with it.
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Nov 7, 2013 00:47
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I'm surprised the whole city hasn't gone even more insane than it already has. Remember in this new universe they have no idea Booker is going around like a psycho killing people in the old one. To them security people are appearing to go completely crazy out of the blue. No rhyme. No reason. Just babbling and such. It's not a disease. It's not some poison. It isn't people going off their meds. They are just... bursting into insanity. If that happened in the real world all hell would break loose. Speaking of which if we go by many world alternate realities every time someone makes a choice two new realities are made from the split. Dead or alive, red vs blue, yadda yadda yadda. That said if one of your splits dies and infects the rest of your alternate selves... Why isn't everyone just dropping crazy right off the bat? I mean if all choices being equally applicable in some alternate universe there has to be one where you made all the wrong choices and things all have it out for you. Like final destination death who is literally out to get you. The only thing I can think of is that only those universes which would be affected is the ones where you breach. So our old universe and this new alternate ones are the only things that would have people dropping crazy and not all the other potential ones. One final thing. The old universe was the one where they made the deal. The new one... has a person who rightfully never made a deal with you. So... What does this solve? Even if you bring Chen Lin to the Vox or the guns to the Vox it does absolutely nothing. Well other than getting mugged for guns of course.
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Nov 7, 2013 00:48
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Penakoto posted:What I've always wondered is why they never thought of just getting a different airship. Or fashion some kind of Parachute. Granted, this is before the era of flight, and possibly the actual invention of parachutes (DaVinci sketches notwithstanding), but Columbia doesn't really seem to present the same obstacles to escape that Rapture does. Just, you know, jump.
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Nov 7, 2013 00:51
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Kinfolk910 posted:I'm surprised the whole city hasn't gone even more insane than it already has. Remember in this new universe they have no idea Booker is going around like a psycho killing people in the old one. To them security people are appearing to go completely crazy out of the blue. No rhyme. No reason. Just babbling and such. It's not a disease. It's not some poison. It isn't people going off their meds. They are just... bursting into insanity. If that happened in the real world all hell would break loose. I would assume, and I'm not 100% sure on this, that it was just a localized thing. The only people we've seen spaz out are two guards who were directly outside the room when the shift happened, and Chen Lin who was in the room. I would guess that shifting through the tear only affected people in a very small radius around the event. I'm guessing the reason Booker and Elizabeth aren't feeling the same effects is because they actually went through the tear.
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Nov 7, 2013 00:55
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McKilligan posted:Or fashion some kind of Parachute. Granted, this is before the era of flight, and possibly the actual invention of parachutes (DaVinci sketches notwithstanding), but Columbia doesn't really seem to present the same obstacles to escape that Rapture does. Just, you know, jump. Another avenue of escape, open up a tear that's on the ground, go in that one. Like, the one that was playing music earlier in Finkton. Oh wait she can't because she only has that much control over her powers when she's wanting to look at Paris or pick a flower or run away from Booker. I just hate how inconsistent her powers are, everything about the Chen Lin arc of the story just leaves me asking questions and scratching my head, but not in the usual good way with Bioshock, more like all those instances with movies where I'm saying "WHY DONT YOU JUST SHOOT HIM?" I love the game, don't get me wrong, but Finkton is a definite low point for me for a number of reasons.
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Nov 7, 2013 01:13
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I think we can explain away some of the stuff people have been bringing up recently, at least in regards to Fink and Fitzroy. One of the changes between the worlds, which was pointed out by Liz, is that Fink's head of security is still alive Redside, while Blueside he was attempting to recruit Booker to the position, so he has no clue how or why we've ended up in the back there on Redside. Redside timeline probably had Fitzroy offer the deal still, then quantumsomethingsomething our Liz and Booker pop up in the back of the Good Time Club, and things go from there.
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Nov 7, 2013 01:53
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Ashsaber posted:I think we can explain away some of the stuff people have been bringing up recently, at least in regards to Fink and Fitzroy. One of the changes between the worlds, which was pointed out by Liz, is that Fink's head of security is still alive Redside, while Blueside he was attempting to recruit Booker to the position, so he has no clue how or why we've ended up in the back there on Redside. Redside timeline probably had Fitzroy offer the deal still, then quantumsomethingsomething our Liz and Booker pop up in the back of the Good Time Club, and things go from there. This is what I'm assuming, that up to a certain point things have played out identically in both reality branches...so in Columbia "B" Booker has still been killing his way through police and soldiers and Daisy Fitzroy is still hanging the airship she jacked from us over our heads, but certain things are different (like Chen Lin being alive). In other words, the "branching point" that really separates the two realities insofar as it relates to Booker's quest is "Chen Lin is dead/Chen Lin is alive," and everything up to that point can be assumed to be roughly similar save for minor variations (tea instead of coffee, etc).
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Nov 7, 2013 02:42
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Pidmon posted:So why on earth would Red Daisy remember or care about a deal that Blue Daisy made to get a weapons shipment in exchange for giving back the First Lady? Why is Booker doing anything more with the gunsmith, other than pity for his half-dead state? There may be no deal, but Daisy high-jacked our blimp before, she can probably get another/already has one. If Blue Daisy was willing to trade guns for an airship, Red Daisy would probably be willing to do the same with significantly more confusion and suspicion.
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Nov 7, 2013 02:55
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I think we're all overlooking one very important thing here. When Booker and Elizabeth pop into Redside they're surrounded by a ton of crates labeled "Assets Seized from Vox Sympathizers" that are full of guns. Since Chen Lin was left alive in Redside, I'm willing to bet that Redside Daisy Fitzroy already got her guns.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:22
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Kangra posted:The original did it best how much of a role does the player actually have when the plot constrains them?, and the second one is a bit weaker _______________________________ You're completely wrong about what Bioshock infinite is commenting on, and you should delete this spoiler despite being so wrong. I wish I could post about what makes this game so interesting/so thematically appropriate as a successor to Bioshock but the crazy-quilt plot means everything is a spoiler.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:34
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Pidmon posted:So why on earth would Red Daisy remember or care about a deal that Blue Daisy made to get a weapons shipment in exchange for giving back the First Lady? Why is Booker doing anything more with the gunsmith, other than pity for his half-dead state? Booker's a bit out of his depth at this point, and can you blame him?
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Nov 7, 2013 03:37
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Arglebargle III posted:You're completely wrong about what Bioshock infinite is commenting on, and you should delete this spoiler despite being so wrong. Are you saying I'm wrong about Bioshock 2, denying its status as a sequel, or wrong about Bioshock Infinite? If it's the last one I haven't actually speculated anything about what I think could happen. At this point I'm only hoping it goes in a particular direction and have no idea whether it will. In case you've confused my spoiler for this game, not Bioshock 2, I'm aware that each of them has borrowed similar ideas from the other and that's not the only thing going on in that game. And even with respect to BS 2 I don't even think it quite succeeds, but I'd argue that's some of what they were going for.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:46
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Albu-quirky Guy posted:I think we're all overlooking one very important thing here. When Booker and Elizabeth pop into Redside... Even though they both state that they're going through a tear...the action onscreen seems to indicate that Elizabeth is actually merging two realities together. Maybe that accounts for certain behaviors and the crazy lobotomized people.
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Nov 7, 2013 04:22
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Arglebargle III posted:You're completely wrong about what Bioshock infinite is commenting on, and you should delete this spoiler despite being so wrong. By the "second one", he meant Bioshock 2, you know, there was a Bioshock 2  And on top of that, he was right. I guess it's alright to be paranoid in a game like that because spoilers are really bad, but now you're forgetting a sequel ?
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Nov 7, 2013 06:10
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HGH posted:
Am I crazy, or is alternate universe fink more charismatic in his propaganda broadcast?
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Nov 7, 2013 06:18
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Humboldt squid posted:It's poop dude. Remember the line about no latrines. I get the feeling that in this universe Finktown is being policed better so he isn't falling apart.
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Nov 7, 2013 06:43
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Lord Windy posted:I get the feeling that in this universe Finktown is being policed better so he isn't falling apart. Yeah, keep in mind that Fink's chief of security is still alive in this time line(or at least was until Booker came along). Apparently whatever he screwed up in the prime universe that he needed to be dealt with for never happened in this one.
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Nov 7, 2013 06:54
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I have to say, this is the first time the protagonist took a moral stand against his own self-interest. It's clear that if Fink wants Booker as much as he says, he could easily pay Booker's debts, but Booker doesn't even consider it. Heck, since Fink doesn't want Elizabeth he could deliver her to whoever Booker owes money to, or he could give her back to Comstock as a peace offering.
Konstantin fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Nov 7, 2013 |
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Nov 7, 2013 15:05
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Konstantin posted:I have to say, this is the first time the protagonist took a moral stand against his own self-interest. It's clear that if Fink wants Booker as much as he says, he could easily pay Booker's debts, but Booker doesn't even consider it. Heck, since Fink doesn't want Elizabeth he could deliver her to whoever Booker owes money to, or he could give her back to Comstock as a peace offering. This is a good perspective, but I'd like to point out that it makes the assumption that his debt is monetary.
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Nov 7, 2013 16:20
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Vegetable Melange posted:This is a good perspective, but I'd like to point out that it makes the assumption that his debt is monetary. I don't recall the game ever going into details about the nature of the debt, largely because it's irrelevant to the plot. But with DeWitt being a former Pinkerton turned Private Detective, he probably did take out some money loans, either to pay for staring his Detective Agency, or because he has a drinking and/or gambling problem. But you know how this goes in movies. Guy gets in debt too deep with the wrong people, he can't pay them back, and instead of money they ask him to do something that his skillset is particularly good for (or something morally deplorable to torture him). If Booker were to show up with $Hojillion, and offered it to whomever he owed the debt to, you know they'd just sit back and laugh, and pull out $100Hojillion, and tell him that money is not what they want to settle the debt, they want the thing that they already told him to get. So while the debt almost certainly started out as monetary, and the people who fronted him the money knew he couldn't pay it back, it was all a ploy just to get Booker in their pocket so he would have to go get the girl to wipe out the debt. And by now, I'm sure Booker already knows that.
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Nov 7, 2013 16:49
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Vegetable Melange posted:This is a good perspective, but I'd like to point out that it makes the assumption that his debt is monetary. Well, I'm pretty loving sure that he states somewhere that his debts are from drinking and gambling.
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Nov 7, 2013 18:08
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Given the impact of his Wounded Knee involvement, followed by his wife's death during labour, one would have to forgive Booker a certain degree of nihilistic escapism.
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Nov 7, 2013 18:37
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second-hand smegma posted:Well, I'm pretty loving sure that he states somewhere that his debts are from drinking and gambling. I remember him talking about what you said somewhere else but can't place it, however I also know he says his debts are specifically monetary - update 10 at 4:10 "I owed money, and there's a fellow...he offered to wipe away my debt, in exchange for you."
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Nov 7, 2013 19:00
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I think at this point, Booker would rather chew his own arm off than stay in Columbia indefinitely - cushy job and debts settled or no. Plus, I think he's a devious enough bastard to realize that Comstock would just have him killed if he stayed. Fink's empire is built on Comstock so if Comstock wanted to cut his head of security's throat while he slept I doubt Fink would be able to stop him.
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Nov 7, 2013 19:36
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Something interesting about the half living guards is that there was a similar incident earlier in the game. It took me two playthroughs to fully link the two incidents together, especially with the help of a later one. I'll avoid saying anything more in case they become spoilers of any kind, and also to see if any of the goons who haven't played the game can make the connection.
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Nov 7, 2013 20:23
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Roro posted:Something interesting about the half living guards is that there was a similar incident earlier in the game. It took me two playthroughs to fully link the two incidents together, especially with the help of a later one. "...Jesus." It's pretty much what I said too, upon watching the first few episodes again.
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Nov 8, 2013 03:41
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Roro posted:Something interesting about the half living guards is that there was a similar incident earlier in the game. It took me two playthroughs to fully link the two incidents together, especially with the help of a later one. Well god drat it I have no idea what you're talking about - looks like I'll have to replay it -again-. Any hints on where to keep an eye out?
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Nov 8, 2013 04:20
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Penakoto posted:What I've always wondered is why they never thought of just getting a different airship. Yeah I'm having a hard time not getting annoyed by this. Booker and Elizabeth are going about this the dumbest way possible. They have many different options they could take, and instead choose to go with the one that has the least chance of working. Without any additional problems, their plan requires them to; 1.) Jump into another dimension 2.) Locate a person that they have no guarantee is even alive in the new dimension 3.) Convince that person to help them, since the circumstances that would have had him help them in the other dimension may not exist 4.) Find a way to transport their goods back to the first dimension Why the gently caress would you do all that instead of finding another gunsmith like Booker originally suggested? There's no way there is only one gunsmith in all of Columbia. If they are willing to go dimension hopping, I don't get why they don't just go to a bunch of different ones until they find one that doesn't suck.
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Nov 8, 2013 04:26
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If you're going to go dimension hopping, why don't you just hop to a dimension where Booker's jacking of the blimp went perfectly?
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Nov 8, 2013 04:48
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JT Jag posted:If you're going to go dimension hopping, why don't you just hop to a dimension where Booker's jacking of the blimp went perfectly? This at least has an explanation, because Elizabeth can only work with the tears she's given. There's a tear for "Chen Lin isn't dead" but not "Everything works out fine with no complications?" Then that's all you get.
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Nov 8, 2013 05:14
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I wanna say something, relevant to the discussion, but I can't think of a way to say it until the next update without potential vague spoilers or hinting or whatever. People are probably right though, that they just weren't thinking of this stuff at the time, and the lettuce twins giving that coin speech probably had some influence on their decision making. Still bugs me though, a character not thinking of a simpler obvious solution to a problem always does even if it's a thing regular people do all the time. Kai Tave posted:This at least has an explanation, because Elizabeth can only work with the tears she's given. Again, it's inconsistent, remember the window and the bee? Or her opening a tear to paris? Or the whole escape sequence. Either she was in control at those times, or it was a lot of coincidences and conveniences. Then there's all the combat tears, but the convenience of those are likely for gameplay purposes. Penakoto fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 05:14
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Kinfolk910 posted:One final thing. The old universe was the one where they made the deal. The new one... has a person who rightfully never made a deal with you. So... What does this solve? Even if you bring Chen Lin to the Vox or the guns to the Vox it does absolutely nothing. Well other than getting mugged for guns of course. The most obvious explanation is that Booker doesn't really get the whole hopping dimensions thing. Which is understandable considering the time period is set before parallel dimensions became part of popular culture.
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Nov 8, 2013 05:21
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