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Asehujiko posted:Inverted old age penalties that make them stronger to go with their "never die of old age" theme? 
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Nov 8, 2013 04:40
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amuayse posted:1. They scatter when they fly so they can't sustain useful formation 2. Since you're entering the fight at 20 fatigue anyways, it doesn't really matter if you have less encumbrance because you still get hacked to pieces 3. Their size and low health means they are big and flimsy targets I disagree with all of this except 3 which I think is more than made up for by flying. 
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Nov 8, 2013 05:02
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Asehujiko posted:Inverted old age penalties that make them stronger to go with their "never die of old age" theme? Combine this and the form change suggestion and add it to Atlantis and Agartha for all ages. Angakok's that after 30+ turns turn into spell-casting Dagons? 
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Nov 8, 2013 05:22
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OwlFancier posted:Well yes, but how does it incur a penalty from that? Obviously everything not in control of the flow of time will have an age, but surely it doesn't suffer from old age on a human timescale, which I thought was the implication? Yeah, mummies have a maximum age (presumably they start to fall apart after that) but since the Vastness is older than that, a Vastness turned into a mummy magically shows up already old. I blame the problem of putting extradimensional bubbles inside cloth wrappings.
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Nov 8, 2013 05:41
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builds character posted:I disagree with all of this except 3 which I think is more than made up for by flying. Since they scatter, they do not focus their attacks well and tend to get focused down easily. So you probably won't send iceclads (monstrously expensive resource wise btw) into a bunch of charging knights or even an Arco phalanx and expect to win. I guess it could work against indies since they're stupid and tend not to guard their commanders and mages but you will still have to pass the morale checks when passing the squads and you'll inevitably gain massive amounts of fatigue by flying over there. Lack of helmets when engaging doesn't help either. So if your guys go in at 20 fatigue, that's automatically a -2 DEF and -1 ATK not to mention the crit bonus. My suggestion would be adding a charge attack bonus to their weapons or something similar, as that would be in line with their roles as glass cannons. amuayse fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 05:48
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The Sharmat posted:Combine this and the form change suggestion and add it to Atlantis and Agartha for all ages. I think you don't quite realize how much older a Dagon is than an Angakok. We're talking hundreds of years, not three.
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Nov 8, 2013 06:22
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amuayse posted:Some things don't seem to have a really obvious solution like changing stats, like for Caelum's infantry being worthless due to flying fatigue or the fact Bowl of Blood has pretty much no use. But I agree that that should be the exception, not the rule. Bringing down blood vengenace to a penetration 10 check (it seems like it's penetration 12 as of the moment) would solve the problem of it being OP yet still make it viable unlike what B9 was in Dom3. All MR rolls that aren't specifically easy or hard are vs 12. Easy are against 8, hard against 16.
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Nov 8, 2013 06:30
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Dirk the Average posted:I think it's more of the idea that they want to bring the nation up to par in ways other than just giving pale ones the same statline as a human. Stats kind of define a unit as far as the mechanics are concerned, though. If they're too low then they are bad, barring weird extra qualities. Saying that fixing the fundamental problem with a thing shouldn't be done because that's boring is ridiculous.
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Nov 8, 2013 06:37
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Roland Jones posted:Stats kind of define a unit as far as the mechanics are concerned, though. If they're too low then they are bad, barring weird extra qualities. Saying that fixing the fundamental problem with a thing shouldn't be done because that's boring is ridiculous. From what I understand, they want the pale ones to be worse in straight combat (accuracy and defence-wise, but not HP and damage-wise) than a human while fighting in daylight. They also want pale ones to be superior to humans in cave environments. At that point though, the pale ones need a gimmick to make them worth recruiting, as caves are just not nearly plentiful enough for that to be a good balancing factor, and at the moment they just don't have one. There are a lot of routes they could take to balance the troops out and make them superior to independents; bumping up stats isn't the only option. I agree that their troops are terrible and this is a problem, but I also think that there are alternate methods of balancing them. Darkness power would be a good start. Mind blasting olms would let the pale ones ignore their attack deficit and rip poor paralyzed bastards to shreds. Nets could also perform a similar role and could be used to give wet ones a niche. Maybe their polearms could be adjusted to length 5 or 6 and have their attack penalty removed. Hell, make 'em a bit strange and give them three arms so that they can wield a glaive/pike/whatever and a shield.
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Nov 8, 2013 07:16
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I'm crushed that Kristoffer said he wasn't planning on increasing the stats of the Ancient Ones at least. I mean, there's something seriously wrong in my opinion when Seal Guards, who are supposed to fight against evil ghosts that guard the prison of ancient gods, have worse attack/defense than baseline monkey infantry. If they did get a cool racial gimmick though, I wouldn't mind. EA is the age when the magical races of the world are in full bloom after all. amuayse fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 07:18
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Hey maybe Kris will bump Caves up to something like 15% per map. That would fix everything! Right? ...right? e: seriously I wouldn't fret about Agartha until the patch hits. I bet there will be some cool new things to give them *some* kind of edge.
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Nov 8, 2013 07:20
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amuyase, the standard mr check is against 12, in both this game and in dom3. Nothing actually checks against 10. That's a manual error that's been around forever. Mods have done charge bonus ice lances, but tweaking the weapons on caelum infantry results in some pretty severe overbalance. There was a CBM iteration where they accidentally got str adds on +cold damage on their weapon and it was stupidly OP. On the other hand no one ever really mentioned DE charge ice lances except that they were kind of good on Atlantis and didn't really make caelum troops useful. If caelum fliers need anything it's size 2 or multiple attacks, anything to up attack density. Unless there's plans to change them from approx-human str and att, then attack density is what's going to hold them back. Fatigue doesn't really factor until you've eliminated size as a factor, it's just so much bigger an effect. Mathematically, flying fatigue is the equiv of one or two steps on the +/- DRN chart, whereas size 3 vs size 2 is a 50% increase in hits. Smerdyakov posted:I'm playing EA Agartha right now in an MP game, and while it's a newbie game and not as cutthroat, the earth readers have a lot of (mostly non-combat) versatility once you have a nice pile of them. The thing is, a nation depends on the combat capabilities of their most available mage. Agartha has just the Earth Reader, which is so poop that in dom3 I usually didn't even bother making them beyond two dozen or so. In dom4 it's probably a necessity for research but that doesn't make them any better. The noncombat applications are not relevant on a noncap that does not expand path access, because the advantage to noncap is you can spam then and noncombat stuff doesn't require spam. So they don't do anything for the nation whatsoever. quote:In dom3 the water oracles were (kinda) considered a reasonable thug chasis but for dom4 I just don't see it, and trying to use them that way in single player has been pretty underwhelming in my tests. hahaha what? No, not at all. Nothing agartha can recruit has EVER been considered a thug chassis. e: naturally umbrals and such but those are summons. trying to thug an oracle or an ancient lord has always been an exercise in futility. I wish it wasn't so, maybe that could be an avenue of improvement. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 07:48
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Did some looking, and there is a mod that gives Caelum a dive attack rather than charge weapons. Huh, and here I was always believing it was against 10 MR.  http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/making-caelums-infantry-usable amuayse fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 07:58
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aoe attacks are neat and all and I've seen them on all sorts of mod things but you have to be very careful with balance since they ignore attack and defense scores.
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Nov 8, 2013 08:13
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Oh well. I'm sure Illwinter will do something. They said they would do either an underwater-patch or flying-patch next. Personally, R'lyeh could afford to have Giboleth/Gibodai go onto land at least. And Oceania's flavor is kind of boring imho. Pretenders DEFINITELY could use an overhaul as well.
amuayse fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 08:21
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Yeah, I think a combination of minor things would work for Agartha. Nets and/or mindblast, to offset lovely attack More caves generated randomly Easier/faster Bara/Rhu pacts Add on one or two points of magic to readers. Native +resource dominion? They do live in caves after all. Keep the cap mages str, but bump them a point or two in their minor path as well. Immortal Great Umbral Hulk pretender chassis. So their troops are still lovely, but have a chance against independents. Their mages aren't completely worthless any longer, and they can switch to summons quickly.
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Nov 8, 2013 08:50
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Slaan posted:Immortal Great Umbral Hulk pretender chassis. Umbrals are not Umber Hulks. One are creepy spectral Agarthans who are mysteriously tied to the Seal and kick all kinds of rear end. The other is an irritating giant bug from D&D that causes confusion. 
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Nov 8, 2013 09:10
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Quiet you  :
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Nov 8, 2013 10:39
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Speleothing posted:Umbrals are not Umber Hulks. Hey, if the game feels okay with stealing Illithids!
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Nov 8, 2013 11:34
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Edit: Whoops forgot to check the new page.
Lilli fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 15:06
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The wet ones have shields (and 11prot), and so really are excellent multipurpose mercs with their siege bonus and amphib. Balancing by stat change can wait for CBM to do the heavy lifting; however llama has to get his server updated first.
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Nov 8, 2013 15:47
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archaeo posted:The wet ones have shields (and 11prot), and so really are excellent multipurpose mercs with their siege bonus and amphib. EA and MA Agartha have a unit called Wet Ones which are 10g/2r naked guys who are slightly more expensive than EA's Pale One Militia in terms of gold (10g vs 7), but have 10 morale over 8. The Wet Ones are MA Agartha's Pale One Soldiers, I think?. Easy gold buy for sieges, sure, but completely unpalatable when they're 20 resources each for bad spear infantry.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:22
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Slaan posted:Yeah, I think a combination of minor things would work for Agartha. I'm almost certain they're doing the pact option, from what I've read. I'm extrapolating and guessing here, but here's what I think will happen, from the latest comments I've seen on the issue: Their existing national site loses gem income. They gain an additional Womb (EA)/Roots (MA) of the Earth site. Anywhere they have this kind of site, they can generate their national summons at no gem cost. In addition, they will have some way to take advantage of that dark seal they've got at their capital. I've heard about the mindblast, and some work into lore redos, but that was a while back. Night attacks, or a national darkness spell? Much less likely, I asked about it, definite no on the night attack. A studied silence (evaluating perhaps) on a national combat or ritual (Sunken Lands) darkness/cave spell. P.S. On an unrelated note, the official forums have the most hilarious joking suggestion for an Agartha bless that I've ever heard. "My suggestion is to try Argatha with a N9 B9 bless. Nothing says hate like that.... (I'm a large pinata, hit me please...)". I... must try this. LordSloth fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 16:34
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So, how's Abyssia in Dom 4? They were always my favorites in Dominions 3, but they were so--eh, unit wise. Did the shift to mage/troops over SC/thugs help them at all? Is fire still a "bad" casting tree?
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Nov 8, 2013 16:45
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Not played them in multiplayer, but I have a feeling the repel mechanics being fixed is going to gently caress them over even further, troops-wise (before LA, where they're basically just a normal human faction with cool magic). Elemental damage is actually stronger than in Dom 3 due to the resistance changes, I'd say, so their battlemagic is alright, but they do have a problem with their researchers being expensive.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:53
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If Caelum infantry's purpose is something other than grounding themselves with a storm and body-blocking the enemy then you need to remove thunder strike.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:21
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That's the only reason I hire Tempest Warriors, because I plan to have Perpetual Storm go up and sometimes you can't always summon a million illusions to block.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:26
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LordSloth posted:I'm almost certain they're doing the pact option, from what I've read. I'm extrapolating and guessing here, but here's what I think will happen, from the latest comments I've seen on the issue: Yeah, I am happier about the minor gem loss if the summon spells are free. The pacts aren't that great in and of themselves, so free ones can help them early game. I have always been a fan of F4E4N4 for the giant Pale ones. They overcome at least some of the lovely attack numbers, to make them completely average.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:30
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LordSloth posted:
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Nov 8, 2013 18:44
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^^^ Umbrals are now able to be summoned for free on turn 1.  I wish.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:59
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Decrepus posted:If Caelum infantry's purpose is something other than grounding themselves with a storm and body-blocking the enemy then you need to remove thunder strike. They need their bows to fire normally in storms or something.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:57
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Flavahbeast posted:I've tried it, I wasn't impressed So what you are saying is it's a thematic Agartha bless.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:59
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Wolfsbane posted:They need their bows to fire normally in storms or something.
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Nov 8, 2013 20:00
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jBrereton posted:Size 2 everywhere, national W3 Cold Arrows spell at Enc 4. I would love that. EA getting shock arrows spell, MA getting cold arrows, and LA getting cold iron arrows like Ulm's darts. The blizzard warriors would automatically have their own special arrows by default. Would make a hell of a lot more sense for them to hold onto their shortbows throughout the ages then.
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Nov 8, 2013 20:26
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amuayse posted:I would love that. As it stands, EA is already very reliant upon Lightning, and having another attack from that elemental school means stuff that reduces its impact for the sake of fighting Thunder Strike spam would also neuter their ranged attacks. The LA idea, yeah maybe. But what would the paths be? E4, to keep it out of being used by every scrub LA Caelum mage? At which point only really Harab Elders or a Pretender can cast it. Seems like a very tight limit on a way to keep shortbows relevant. Problems I can foresee, though: 1) It gives MA Caelum, already Best Caelum, a bit of a boost, since High Seraphim get W2 and a 27.5% shot at W3+ to start with. 2) There isn't an AP8 Cold attack, only an AP12 one (222), which would make a Freezing Arrows spell stronger than Flaming Arrows. 3) I'm not sure about what the spell effect number is to do this thing without just copying Flaming Arrows wholesale.
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Nov 8, 2013 21:05
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The big thing about EA and LA Caelum sort of sucking as of now is the fact that their big mages (Eagle Kings and Harab Elders) are StR and Cap-Only and the only way to expand well is through the expensive and low-MR Mammoths and/or an awake Pretender. Their Yazads and Spentas are too high up on the Conjuration skill tree and too expensive as well, which is silly because Caelum is primarily an Evocation/Alteration nation.
amuayse fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 21:41
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jBrereton posted:Problems I can foresee, though: It's not something that mods can do, it would have to be an Illwinter thing.
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Nov 8, 2013 21:46
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Wolfsbane posted:It's not something that mods can do, it would have to be an Illwinter thing.
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Nov 8, 2013 21:52
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PoptartsNinja posted:So, how's Abyssia in Dom 4? They were always my favorites in Dominions 3, but they were so--eh, unit wise. poo poo troops, poo poo mages that aren't the MA/LA Warlock, poo poo nation. Enjoy your 8 and 9 encumbrance infantry and no meaningful troops for any other roles. LA has some cool assassins but the good ones compete with Warlocks for recruitment slots. Everything is a little overpriced because Abysians are "better" than humans.
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Nov 8, 2013 22:16
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In MA the line troops heat aura lets them win many slug fests and they do have slightly better stats. The fire evocations are okay. Still low diversity, cap only problems and horrible old age afflictions make turns 35+ a real pain. Old age is just mean when you get old at 33. Also quick question, do cold scales reduce heat auras in dom 4 or only if they have heat power?jBrereton posted:
Numbness on hit,if that is possible? Seems fluffy. folytopo fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 22:59
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