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Nessus posted:Where is the gene for quantum mathematical aptitude? I mean, hell, is there even one, or even a cluster? The thing that gets me that sort of thing in Star Trek is that some things are universally 'okay' and somethings are horrible evil awful and bad. Geordi's visor is 'okay' despite being a cybernetic augmentation that allows him to see 'better' than regular humans because it's compensating for a birth defect, and because he can't ~experience a sunset~ or whatever the gently caress. Nog's leg and Picard's heart are okay, because they're replacements for natural bodyparts that were lost, but they both have to be subpar compared to flesh. All their magic beepy-wavy-magicbeam medicine is OK but only to a certain extent. If someone gets magically mutated into a monkey/spider/amphibian fuckbeast, it's okay to technobabble their DNA back together, but if someone has a horrible genetic condition, TOO loving BAD they're stuck that way. The ability to replicate a whole new goddamn functional spinal column is bogged down with safety and ethics concerns. You can't 'enhance' anyone's intelligence or learning ability, even if they were born with some sort of learning disorder. I wonder what the Star Trek universe does as far as Downs, since it's a very obvious, very easily detectable chromosomal abnormality that given their level of technology should be impossibly easy to fix, but then given Dr. Bashir's life story and hosed up autistic buddies, they probably have strict rules protecting the ~biological integrity~ of people with Downs from conception to birth, whereupon they are taken away to a fancy Federation group home where they can go sing opera or whatever.
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Nov 8, 2013 08:59
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aside I imagine in a trek series you could rehabilitate some transhumanist themes, just probably not of the 'thanks to our use of this science we are literally better at everything' sorts.
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Tighclops posted:Exactly, superior ability breeds superior ambition. Also do you really want Khan: Star Fleet janitor?
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Nov 8, 2013 09:00
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Farecoal posted:Michael Dorn, ruining takes before they've even started: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SvVXb3yq-U#t=42s Looks like they were having a lot of fun. I like that 
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Nov 8, 2013 09:15
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Blazing Ownager posted:Also do you really want Khan: Star Fleet janitor? Well, Star Trek doesn't really need janitors. Shifting the bell curve would just mean a larger availability of higher intelligence populations, so your waste extractions technicians are a bit smarter. It's also an effective way to stave off the singularity that somehow fails to happen in Star Trek. Now, changing the deviation of the population would have interesting societal effects, a la Khan - or the opposite.
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Nov 8, 2013 09:16
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Nessus posted:Where is the gene for quantum mathematical aptitude? I mean, hell, is there even one, or even a cluster? I don't think its really a secret that people are born with predispositions. How you leverage those is all in your upbringing, but at a biological level there has to be certain chemical or neural compositions that are more flexible with some logical functions than others that very from person to person. Since the brain isn't proceduraly generated we know that with advanced enough knowledge we could change the genetic instructions and spur the creation of those pathways or compositions during development. It wouldn't make you come out of the chute with an advanced knowledge of relativity, but it should make you more receptive to it when taught. There's always also a chance that you could pre-engineer certain knowledge, hijack the built in self preservation knowledge we have and inject all sorts of stuff on top of it to give people doctorates in all sorts of junk before they are even born, but really we have no clue if that is possible without much more research on how those structures work in the brain. Its entirely possible that adding hardcoding in that fashion could either be impossible or dangerous or just plain inefficient. Spaceman Future! fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 09:46
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On the one hand, I agree with the position that genetic engineering isn't something that's inherently bad any more than any other technology that we've used to improve our quality of life is. "Thanks to our use of this science we are literally better at everything" is the sort of thing that actually exists in real life now today, not in fantasy made-up transhumania. Genetic engineering gets a bad "playing GOD!" rap thanks to decades of movies warning us that tampering with man's genetic code will turn people into horrible abominations of science run amok...which Star Trek itself decided to incorporate into its own backstory, so there you go. On the other hand, the reason that Star Trek staunchly avoids becoming The Culture is fundamentally because that's not the sort of story the showrunners wanted to tell or, frankly, the sort of story the audience wanted to see outside of a select percentage of serious sci-fi nerds. I mean, that's it in a nutshell...the writers and many (most) of the people tuning in are content with an episodic televisual action/drama with some comedy and lots of reflections on human nature through bumpy-headed aliens and the occasional spaceship battle, and they don't care about technological inconsistencies or weird mixed signals regarding genetic engineering in the far, far future.
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Nov 8, 2013 12:54
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Pfft genetic engineering is just what nature is doing, only faster.
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Nov 8, 2013 13:07
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Count Chocula posted:A few Khans aside, why not improve the intelligence of EVERYONE, especially Starfleet officers? Because in order to get consistent results, you'd probably have to test on hundreds, if not thousands of people. It's been said on Trek before that they still don't know exactly how the human brain works. You'd have to go downright Mengele on people, just to see what happens when you start flipping switches. Take a look at DS9. For every Bashir, you have three people who cannot safely function in society.
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Nov 8, 2013 14:06
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Kai Tave posted:On the other hand, the reason that Star Trek staunchly avoids becoming The Culture is fundamentally because that's not the sort of story the showrunners wanted to tell or, frankly, the sort of story the audience wanted to see outside of a select percentage of serious sci-fi nerds. I mean, that's it in a nutshell...the writers and many (most) of the people tuning in are content with an episodic televisual action/drama with some comedy and lots of reflections on human nature through bumpy-headed aliens and the occasional spaceship battle, and they don't care about technological inconsistencies or weird mixed signals regarding genetic engineering in the far, far future. Yeah, this. Star Trek isn't hard science fiction by any means. It's just a fantasy setting where people tell stories. It's more about human relationships and experiences than it is hard science. Most of the stuff in Star Trek is not even remotely plausible, but does it really have to be?
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Nov 8, 2013 14:18
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Four people, actually. I don't know if you're forgetting Catatonic Girl, Divatox, Admiral Poopypants or Beat Poet, but there's actually four in that cadre of rejects. And the counter argument is that if genetic augmentation was legal and had been heavily researched, people like them wouldn't happen. Those guys are the result of black-market augmentation; using them as an example of why all augmentation is bad is like pointing to women who die from illegal abortions and saying "this is why abortions are bad, they kill women!" These negative side-effects wouldn't be so bad if they were legal and highly regulated. I don't recall if they ever say, but Bashir himself was modified off-world by people who knew what they were doing. The others, well, maybe they were jazzed up in somebody's living room in an under-the-table transaction. Coathangers and non-sterile bedsheets, you know?
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Nov 8, 2013 14:26
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Really though, I recall there actually there being a somewhat interesting point that was raised in that episode that's sort of fallen between the cracks of the "but why not genetic engineering" argument. Bashir says that the reason he goes by "Julian" and not "Jules" is because the person he was effectively doesn't exist any longer, and that raises a slightly more interesting dilemma (to me anyway) than blanket "genetic engineering is bad/good" debate. Because in a way he's not wrong. His parents took a kid that, who knows what he might have been like or done with his life? They took that kid and gave him to some dudes and said "go ahead and completely overhaul his brain" and so, y'know, are they the same person after that? It's not really an argument against genetic engineering per se because it's easy to envision more responsible ways of employing such things than "let's give our school-aged kid over to an underground clinic to have people mess with his brain," but it at least provides an insight into why Bashir himself feels conflicted about it.
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Nov 8, 2013 14:35
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Sprat Sandwich posted:Pfft genetic engineering is just what nature is doing, only faster. Which is fine on domesticated animals and plants and bioweapons, but you turn that on people and you're rubbing shoulders with Himmler the Chicken Farmer in spirit.
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Nov 8, 2013 14:35
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The Nazis were really lovely scientists though. Like, I know pop culture loves to portray the Nazis as MAD SCIENTISTS! cooking up all manner of diabolical superweapons and crazy genetic experiments but the truth is that a lot of Nazi "science" has as much in common with actual scientific research as modern surgery has in common with a guy who likes to torture and vivisect pigs for fun. Thinking genetic engineering might be really awesome and beneficial doesn't mean you're automatically one step away from Godwin's law.
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Nov 8, 2013 14:43
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Sash! posted:Which is fine on domesticated animals and plants and bioweapons, but you turn that on people and you're rubbing shoulders with Himmler the Chicken Farmer in spirit. Which is really lame man I can't wait for some sweet modifications done on my body if you know what I mean  And by that I mean I want to get rid of my annual winter earaches.
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Nov 8, 2013 15:07
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bobkatt013 posted:For ever Bashir you get 3 crazy ones. Create a permanent holodeck, raise them on it that they have no knowledge its a holodeck. If they go Khan, teleport a small part of their spinal column outside their body, instant death. Study body to increase knowledge. Or split the holodeck so they are instantly only surrounded by holo characters, let them take over the fake universe, study them. Increases knowledge. If they go Bashir, they get released but are watched constantly. Section 31 would jump at this.
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Nov 8, 2013 15:34
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Gammatron 64 posted:Yeah, this. Star Trek isn't hard science fiction by any means. It's just a fantasy setting where people tell stories. It's more about human relationships and experiences than it is hard science. Most of the stuff in Star Trek is not even remotely plausible, but does it really have to be? Yeah but its a fantasy setting that has spent several episodes focusing on this exact subject. Hell, it dedicated an entire race, the Borg, to basically act as a "what hath science wraught keep your bodies pure or you will turn into psychopaths" analog every time they turn up on screen.
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Nov 8, 2013 15:36
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Kai Tave posted:Bashir says that the reason he goes by "Julian" and not "Jules" is because the person he was effectively doesn't exist any longer, and that raises a slightly more interesting dilemma (to me anyway) than blanket "genetic engineering is bad/good" debate. This is a fascinating topic and I recommend the brilliant novel Flowers for Algernon to anyone who's interested in this sort of question.
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Nov 8, 2013 15:47
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hailthefish posted:I wonder what the Star Trek universe does as far as Downs, since it's a very obvious, very easily detectable chromosomal abnormality that given their level of technology should be impossibly easy to fix, but then given Dr. Bashir's life story and hosed up autistic buddies, they probably have strict rules protecting the ~biological integrity~ of people with Downs from conception to birth, whereupon they are taken away to a fancy Federation group home where they can go sing opera or whatever. Downs would probably be correctable in-vitro with Star Trek technology. It probably wouldn't have the same stigma because Downs is a serious defect that has a clearly marked divergence from normal genetics. Count Chocula posted:I just saw 'Doctor Bashir, I Presume', though, and it really makes me dislike the Federation. The anti-genetic engineering stance makes them seem pretty retrograde and Luddite, and its at odds with my transhuman beliefs. Star Trek was never going to embrace imminent transhumanism, even if only for the reason it would make the series less accessible to average viewers and potentially harder to produce. The humans are supposed to be the easiest people to relate to - and, sorry, but your "transhuman beliefs" are a very niche interest. Adam Bowen posted:Genetic engineering implies that humans can be better which doesn't fit with one of the central tenets of Star Trek, that humans are perfect and all alien races would be best served by becoming more like us because we've struck the perfect balance between logic and emotion, empathy and valor, and so on. TOS never said humans were perfect, hell even TNG didn't portray humans as perfect, Gene just went too far in pushing the utopian society angle. happyhippy posted:Section 31 would jump at this. That sounds like a pretty strong argument against it then! (S31 are assholes and should not be tolerated.) Spaceman Future! posted:Yeah but its a fantasy setting that has spent several episodes focusing on this exact subject. Hell, it dedicated an entire race, the Borg, to basically act as a "what hath science wraught keep your bodies pure or you will turn into psychopaths" analog every time they turn up on screen. The Borg represent the danger of pure pragmatism without values. Everything they do is (supposed to be) governed by "what is most efficient". Why eat when you can just jam nutrients straight into your bloodstream? Why use clumsy fingers to operate precision tools when you can just make the tools part of your body? Why refine metal when you can just take someone else's? Why speak when you can just think at someone else? Why bother with clumsy democratic voting processes when you can just subsume your identity in a monolithic hivemind? The Star Trek writers might have taken it too far with other arguments, but I don't see anything wrong with the Borg as a cautionary against assuming that (among other things) you can just tech your way to a better society. Is it possible to responsibly augment, enhance, and transform yourself with technology? Yeah, sure, I'll buy it. That doesn't make it wrong to suggest that you can gently caress up, though, or that the Borg represent a people that were irresponsible.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:03
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Sarina (the mute one) actually gets recruited in one of the novels by S31 after Bashir fixes her issue.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:10
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FlamingLiberal posted:Sarina (the mute one) actually gets recruited in one of the novels by S31 after Bashir fixes her issue. And the two of them have become romantically involved. Well, more so.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:28
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hailthefish posted:The thing that gets me that sort of thing in Star Trek is that some things are universally 'okay' and somethings are horrible evil awful and bad. This gets even weirder when you apply that logic to aliens. If a Betazoid is born without telepathy, would it be OK to create a brain implant that restores their lost sense? If Geordi's visor is allowed then I don't see why the telepathy implant wouldn't be allowed either. But what if a human grows up on Betazed, raised by Betazoid parents and never even seeing other humans? They would be effectively handicapped in the society and culture they live in because they don't have telepathy. Why wouldn't it be OK for them to also get that implant? ...I may or may not have considered writing fanfiction about this.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:53
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Yea but do they actually scan for telepathy at birth? Betazoids don't start showing telepathy until they're near adolescence, iirc.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:00
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Doctor Butts posted:Yea but do they actually scan for telepathy at birth? Betazoids don't start showing telepathy until they're near adolescence, iirc. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well just replace "is born without" with "never develops", it still works. I guess it'd be the equivalent of going through puberty and their voice never breaks.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:10
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Blazing Ownager posted:Also do you really want Khan: Star Fleet janitor? Surely it would be kinder - more MERCIFUL - to give the janitors a... different augmentation package. One that will help them in achieving their life goals more easily. Perhaps even one that would make them... happy in this life that they have been dealt. Some must serve, after all. There's no shame in it. Who decides who gets to be a janitor? Oh, me, of course; my intelligence has been immensely augmented, after all. I'm the best choice. e: This isn't necessarily inevitable, of course, or anything, but if you're already talking about making everyone different for the general good, would it not benefit the general good if some became more... specialized, rather than everyone getting this across-the-board bolstering? Nessus fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 17:23
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Genetically engineer everyone to be perfect but also give them biological impulses that match their professions. Khan the janitor is a megalomaniac who is obsessed with obtaining human perfection through cleanliness, Khan the middle manager is driven by an all-consuming need to ensure all TPS reports are filed in a timely manner and HR policies are followed to the letter and so on.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:35
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Adam Bowen posted:Genetically engineer everyone to be perfect but also give them biological impulses that match their professions. Khan the janitor is a megalomaniac who is obsessed with obtaining human perfection through cleanliness, Khan the middle manager is driven by an all-consuming need to ensure all TPS reports are filed in a timely manner and HR policies are followed to the letter and so on. But what happens when Khan the robots rights activist goes up again Khan who builds mining robots that can be argued as sentient?
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Nov 8, 2013 17:39
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Adam Bowen posted:Genetically engineer everyone to be perfect but also give them biological impulses that match their professions. Khan the janitor is a megalomaniac who is obsessed with obtaining human perfection through cleanliness, Khan the middle manager is driven by an all-consuming need to ensure all TPS reports are filed in a timely manner and HR policies are followed to the letter and so on. I saw that movie, it's called Man of Steel and it didn't work out too well for the Kryptonians.  Jokes aside, that's basically a genetically-backed caste system. What happens the first time Khan: Account Manager #764 decides he wants to be a surgeon instead? Are people firmly restricted to their pre-selected roles, or are they allowed to choose? If they can choose, what do you do when they choose something they're not "built" for? If there's no room for movement, how do you keep them from deciding to change roles? Do you simply remove the desire to choose from them? You're getting into some really murky "free will" territory with what you're proposing. Frank Horrigan fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 17:44
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Aldous Huxley's A Brave New World, space edition.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:52
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It'd be cool to meet a species that was basically the Borg, but biological instead of technological, doing everything with genetic engineering rather than cybernetic implants. That would make for a pretty neat episode! EDIT: Oh wait, that'd be Species 8472, right? Ahhh, another wasted potential in Voyager. 
DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 17:52
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Bicyclops posted:But what happens when Khan the robots rights activist goes up again Khan who builds mining robots that can be argued as sentient? A Khan-off.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:00
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DrSunshine posted:It'd be cool to meet a species that was basically the Borg, but biological instead of technological, doing everything with genetic engineering rather than cybernetic implants. That would make for a pretty neat episode! Since when the gently caress did 8472 have a collective hivemind?? Oh wait I forgot there's nothing actually to anyone except how badass they are so of course they're just like the Borg except genetically engineered
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Nov 8, 2013 18:09
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Azurrat posted:I saw that movie, it's called Man of Steel and it didn't work out too well for the Kryptonians. Khan the account manager #764 is driven by a biological need to become the greatest account manager in the holo-catheter industry of Cleveland and surrounding communities. Why would he want to be something as unpleasant and pointless as a surgeon? How he got into that career doesn't matter, what matters is that it was his destiny and he is driven to achieve total victory over his adversaries.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:11
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Does anyone have that gif from TNG of Reg Barclay walking onto the bridge wearing a pink uniform and talking about Troi stuffing her bra? I know this is a totally random request but Google is popping up with absolutely nothing.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:14
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kelvron posted:A Khan-off. It will be solved in a Anbo-jyutsu match
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Nov 8, 2013 18:18
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Adam Bowen posted:Genetically engineer everyone to be perfect but also give them biological impulses that match their professions. Khan the janitor is a megalomaniac who is obsessed with obtaining human perfection through cleanliness, Khan the middle manager is driven by an all-consuming need to ensure all TPS reports are filed in a timely manner and HR policies are followed to the letter and so on. Isn't this basically the plot of The Masterpiece Society (aka lovely Troi romance episode #728006)
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Nov 8, 2013 18:22
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DrSunshine posted:
 Finally, a recurring non-humanoid! oh, they're just monsters with mysterious spaceships from a dimension full of liquid.How did they evolve, Voyager writers? Why don't they try to communicate in their regular form? Why do they infect people with a disease instead of just killing them outright? Why do they even have spaceships? Or legs, if they come from a dimension with no stellar objects? Why couldn't you just think something through when writing half of a drat script goddammit.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:24
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Whalley posted:
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Nov 8, 2013 18:27
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Drone posted:Does anyone have that gif from TNG of Reg Barclay walking onto the bridge wearing a pink uniform and talking about Troi stuffing her bra? I know this is a totally random request but Google is popping up with absolutely nothing. SA finally begins to regret losing aatrek.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:12
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Whalley posted:How did they evolve, Voyager writers? Why don't they try to communicate in their regular form? Why do they infect people with a disease instead of just killing them outright? Why do they even have spaceships? Or legs, if they come from a dimension with no stellar objects? Why couldn't you just think something through when writing half of a drat script goddammit. Why do you need everything explained to you down to the most minute detail? Can you not just imagine what they might be, or realize that none of that has any bearing on the plot? About the Down's question, wasn't it said in the Bashir episode that genetic engineering was outlawed except for removing birth defects and diseases? Although that makes Geordi being born blind somewhat confusing.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:49
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Deadman63 posted:About the Down's question, wasn't it said in the Bashir episode that genetic engineering was outlawed except for removing birth defects and diseases? Although that makes Geordi being born blind somewhat confusing.
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Nov 8, 2013 20:07
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