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He used the same style of shields in the Demonreach battle in Turn Coat I recall.
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Nov 12, 2013 16:11
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Lyer posted:Finished Ghost Story, I thought it was a rough read, seeing all of Harry's friends frayed around the edges like that. Although batman molly was pretty cool, I think it would have worked out better if she had a few more badass moments before going totally vigilante. It's just kind of hard to believe she went from inept side kick to asskicking hero. The vignettes at the end were nice though, was good to see some characters that didn't have screen time. Harry was essentially Helicopter Parenting Molly into the wizard world. Before Changes almost every book ends with a fight where Molly has to sit on the sidelines or man the getaway car. This is probably the morally correct thing to do (with her being psychically sensitive and all), but it's also not going to challenge her to realize her true potential any time soon. Lea took the sink or swim approach to teaching, and Molly became a badass by necessity in order to survive.
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Nov 12, 2013 19:15
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This latest discussion has me thinking that Harry being so strong with brute-force magic is actually a weakness for him. He seems to be reaching the point where smashing things is becoming less effective since he's dealing with functional (and sometimes literal) gods. If I had to guess I'd say some of the new perspective he's been forced into taking over the last book or two will influence how he uses his magic. Is there any compelling reason (short of being kind of poo poo at subtle magic) that he couldn't, say, modify the enchantments on his duster to redirect the force from a bullet instead of trying to stop it dead? I envision some expendable widgets on his belt that would get the poo poo mashed out of them when he's shot instead of his chest taking the brunt of the force. Hell, why not have the force from bullets redirected into charging up his rings? I guess what I'm saying is that short of going full Denarian or busting out a Darkhallow, Harry's power creep seems to have stalled out in terms of raw power, and combined with us being in the second half of the casebooks I think it's time Butcher had Harry start to use some cleverness. Of course, being stubborn and bullheaded is kind of Harry's thing, but the last few books have really set up a lot of character growth.
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Nov 12, 2013 19:19
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For a detective and a wizard, Harry isn't very smart. He's great at wits and quick thinking, or putting in the effort to solve things the hard way, but other than that he just uses a lot of brute force-hard work solutions, even when solving magic problems.
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Nov 12, 2013 19:33
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He did show some cleverness in Turn Coat, but Cold Days demanded a bit of a brute force solution.
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Nov 12, 2013 19:52
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I dunno, I think Harry is pretty smart. He just doesn't take the time to think things through. He goes with the first thing that comes to mind, and does his best to stick with it all the way to the grave. Additionally, Harry is uncomfortable with change. He lived in his little apartment reading worn-down books, worked from the same office, and fell for the same tricks (damsels, etc.) year after year. He's a giant nerd, and has a lot of the baggage that comes with that. If Harry had a better method pointed out to him by someone he respects, then I doubt he would hesitate to go for it.
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Nov 12, 2013 19:52
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Silento posted:I dunno, I think Harry is pretty smart. He just doesn't take the time to think things through. He goes with the first thing that comes to mind, and does his best to stick with it all the way to the grave. Additionally, Harry is uncomfortable with change. He lived in his little apartment reading worn-down books, worked from the same office, and fell for the same tricks (damsels, etc.) year after year. He's a giant nerd, and has a lot of the baggage that comes with that. If Harry had a better method pointed out to him by someone he respects, then I doubt he would hesitate to go for it. Wizards in general are a bit averse to change. It comes with living such a long-rear end time.
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Nov 12, 2013 19:54
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Yeah but for example, look at how he went through the research to reverse the vampire transformation, and to create Little Chicago, he did both the hard way, while that worked out for Little Chicago, given a lot of time and no life, the vampire transformation was a problem of approach, not power, so he was stuck. EDIT: Similarly with the search for Maggie and Molly really. veekie fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Nov 12, 2013 |
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Nov 12, 2013 20:01
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Harry isn't that old yet though.
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Nov 12, 2013 20:04
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Best example is summoning up a demon instead of looking in the phone book.
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Nov 12, 2013 20:24
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veekie posted:For a detective and a wizard, Harry isn't very smart. The thing is, Harry was a PI in the normal world, and even his un-subtle magic is a huge huge huge advantage there. In Ghost Story, you learn that his PI mentor has found seven lost kids alive. He lives in his lovely run-down building, and he's happy with this turn of events. Harry, on the other hand... if you brought Harry your kid's hairbrush the second you discovered they were missing, Harry could follow that directly to them. Doesn't matter where they go. Doesn't matter who took them, provided that it's a magically clueless mortal of some sort. If they're alive, he can find them. If they're dead, he can find the body. No clues, no research, no canvasing the area or making lists of suspects or checking for an alibi. All those nationally televised kidnapping stories and such that you hear on the news? Harry could solve them all trivially. His magic is so brute-force effective at things like tht that I honestly wouldn't expect Harry to be that skilled as a PI, myself, because he's never had to be. I've always assumed that's the reason he became a PI, actually.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:54
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AllTerrineVehicle posted:This latest discussion has me thinking that Harry being so strong with brute-force magic is actually a weakness for him. He seems to be reaching the point where smashing things is becoming less effective since he's dealing with functional (and sometimes literal) gods. If I had to guess I'd say some of the new perspective he's been forced into taking over the last book or two will influence how he uses his magic. I think you're basically right and this is the path Butcher intends to walk Harry along. Over the past few books there's been growing emphasis on Harry's need to "fight smart, not hard" and that's one of the main lines of his character development.
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Nov 12, 2013 23:27
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Then again, Soulfire seems to allow Harry's magic to reach out and touch ANYTHING.
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Nov 13, 2013 03:12
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That's kind of what soulfire does from what I understand, it makes the magic something more versus hellfire that makes the magic something stronger.
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Nov 13, 2013 06:37
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I just reread Small Favor, and a few things jumped out at me. It is hilarious that Harry figures out who betrayed Marcone but uses that information to no effect. 50/50 chance she's Black Council, and Harry just blusters? Doesn't follow up with his own investigation. Doesn't warn Marcone. Why? Because he's a criminal and that is bad, I guess? Wow Harry can be dumb. I had forgotten there is a moment where Harry is able to perfectly use his burned hand at a critical point to catch a coin. It felt like pretty substantial parasite=Lash evidence. After having read Cold Days, the book feels significantly more sexist and homophobic. There were are so many throwaway gags that kind of rely on gender stuff that I just glazed over before, but they feel meaner now. Odd how reframing affects a reading. I'm spoiling because someone said they just finished book 8. Wittgen fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 08:26
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Azuth0667 posted:That's kind of what soulfire does from what I understand, it makes the magic something more versus hellfire that makes the magic something stronger. It works great, until he starts using Soulfire wrongly, and generally loving himself up pretty good with huge Soulfire blasts.
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Nov 13, 2013 10:38
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Wittgen posted:I just reread Small Favor, and a few things jumped out at me. For point one, it's most likely that The action was taken by Demeter as an attack of opportunity. She saw the wheels the Denarians set in motion and decided to use them to act against Marcone to get revenge for his involvement in her child's 'death' in a way that she could almost certainly hide if it failed. Her actions are very much in line with her character, and didn't set off any "black council" or (super spoiler) Adversary alarm bells for me. She certainly could have been infected during the rites and orgies that she participated in with Victor Sells back in Storm Front, but I don't see it as all that likely personally. For point two, that is a toss up. I personally think that it was the intervention of Uriel, since he had already been nudging around Harry quite a bit and gave him soul fire just a few minutes previous (if I'm remembering the moment correctly, I don't have my books on hand due to moving recently). I won't discount the possibility of it being the parasite/Lasciel, but I personally think it was Uriel. The echo of Lash did make his burnt hand work in ways it normally couldn't right after she 'died' and Harry was playing guitar. So there is a precedent for both options.
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Nov 13, 2013 11:00
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I suppose that makes sense for point one. I may have been confusing Demeter with another character from Cold Days. It also may have struck me as stupid of Harry because Demeter feels like a way more evil person than Marcone. I am not sure we have ever seen Marcone or Marcone's business actually do anything evil. Demeter has willingly participated in malevolent rituals and she sold out her boss and lover to Satan. As for point two, I disagree. Lash has made Harry's hand work in the past, and I feel that points to Lash way more strongly than the fact that Uriel was already helping a little. Uriel's shtick is subtle long term influence, not something as direct and free will violating as taking over a guy's hand. There's one more piece of evidence. Shortly after the miracle catch, he gets a sharp pain in his head. It seems to be in reaction to a Denarian using hellfire. I'm not sure how that could cause it, though, since I thought the uber pentacle was already made of hellfire. Wounded Lash's efforts giving him a headache make more sense to me.
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Nov 13, 2013 11:21
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Wittgen posted:I suppose that makes sense for point one. I may have been confusing Demeter with another character from Cold Days. It also may have struck me as stupid of Harry because Demeter feels like a way more evil person than Marcone. I am not sure we have ever seen Marcone or Marcone's business actually do anything evil. Demeter has willingly participated in malevolent rituals and she sold out her boss and lover to Satan. Marcone didn't become Chicago's kingpin by selling girlscout cookies. He might be "the lesser evil" when it comes to organized crime but it's a given that his empire was built over a pile of broken kneecaps and severed horse's heads even if we aren't shown. Is it really that reprehensible for someone to try to set up their child's murderer (from where she stands) to get hosed by demons?
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Nov 13, 2013 14:59
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Harry himself wouldn't give a drat if not for the opposition AND the choice he can't refuse.
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Nov 13, 2013 15:08
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MeLKoR posted:Marcone didn't become Chicago's kingpin by selling girlscout cookies. He might be "the lesser evil" when it comes to organized crime but it's a given that his empire was built over a pile of broken kneecaps and severed horse's heads even if we aren't shown. To the first, "we aren't shown" is the core of my point. Every time we meet Marcone, Dresden goes on a righteous internal rant about what scum he is and how he causes a ton of suffering. For the life of me, though, I can't think of any evidence for this besides the fact that he's a crime boss. His M.O. is to do all that is possible to minimize innocents getting hurt. He goes to significant lengths to try and get the shroud to heal a little girl. In Small Favor, he consistently puts a little girl's well being ahead of his own. As a reader, why in the world should I find him less sympathetic than Demeter? To the second, yes it is that reprehensible. More so, really. She did a lot to help the Denarians almost get the Archive. Her actions could easily have paved the way for an age of darkness and suffering for all mankind. What happened to her is tragic and I sympathize with her grief, but grief isn't carte blanche to make literal deals with the devil.
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Nov 13, 2013 15:53
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Whatever makes you think she knows or cares about anything about the Denarian plan for anyone but Marcone?
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Nov 13, 2013 16:11
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veekie posted:Whatever makes you think she knows or cares about anything about the Denarian plan for anyone but Marcone? I wasn't under the impression she knew anything about the Denarians at all, though admittedly it's been some time since I've read Small Favor. I thought she had sold him out to that rebellious lieutenant of his. Speaking of, did anything ever come of Ms. Gard apparently absconding with one of the coins at the end of Small Favor?
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Nov 13, 2013 17:22
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AllTerrineVehicle posted:Is there any compelling reason (short of being kind of poo poo at subtle magic) that he couldn't, say, modify the enchantments on his duster to redirect the force from a bullet instead of trying to stop it dead? I envision some expendable widgets on his belt that would get the poo poo mashed out of them when he's shot instead of his chest taking the brunt of the force. Hell, why not have the force from bullets redirected into charging up his rings? Actually, for most of the series Harry has had some form of new/redesigned accessories in pretty much every book. That kind of magic is usually referred to as Thurmaturgy (creating an effect projected via a sympathetic item) and believe it or not, for most of the series Harry considers himself poor at Evocation (combat) magic, but gifted in thurmaturgy which is not to be confused with "subtlety" (mind magic, veils, illusions, ect). For examples of thurmaturgy see: force shield versions 1 and 2, Duster enchantment versions 1 and 2, potions, his ghost busting material, the bear belt (fool moon), the electric chain (small favor), force rings mark 1 and 2, the improved summoning circle (made of 3 different alloys, each etched with specifically chosen runes), little Chicago (insanely complex and precise), and those are just what I can thin of off the top of my head. He's only become good at combat magic because he's needed it to survive. Granted, we haven't seen much of that since the start of Changes, but that's not surprising considering how since the opening line of Changes Harry's had a combined total of 15 minutes downtime, skipping from crisis to crisis. We've also seen a MAJOR power creep in the last 3 books since he took up the mantle of Winter Knight. Remember that even as of Cold Days where he's effectively superhuman he's only had the span of his rehabilitation to grasp his new power, going into skin game he's going to have spent several months in isolation training on Demonreach and studying the magic of the place. You can be damned sure he'll have made new and better accessories in that timespan, in the short preview Butcher gave at Miscon you can already see how much power creep he's had since Cold Days. Skin games reading for those who didn't catch it the first time, obviously major spoilers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-p_CTynqd8
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Nov 13, 2013 18:34
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He's naturally good at combat magic for sheer magical lifting ability though. Sure his control is crap, but if you want to kill everything within five hundred meters, Harry's your man.
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Nov 13, 2013 18:55
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So I just finished Cold Days and I thought it was the best one out of the "new format". The most amusing scene in the training montage to me, was Mab popping out of nowhere to shoot Harry with a shotgun. I was kind of expecting more of a sappy reunion thing with his friends, a "oh you're alive" was just kind of odd considering how broken up they were about him in the last book. Speaking of power creeps, Molly we hardly knew ye. I think having a few more books with her as Batman would have been nice, I just don't know where this plot point is going to go. Especially since we have Harry's miniplot with his struggle to stay himself and not let winter rule him. She's one of my favorite characters and I'll be bummed if she gets sidelined in the books because she's too "Mary Sue" now.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:07
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veekie posted:He's naturally good at combat magic for sheer magical lifting ability though. Sure his control is crap, but if you want to kill everything within five hundred meters, Harry's your man. I remember quite a few passages in the early books where Harry basically says that he couldn't use big combat magic without the extra control from his blasting rod because he would just blow up the entire area, including himself.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:07
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Mygna posted:I remember quite a few passages in the early books where Harry basically says that he couldn't use big combat magic without the extra control from his blasting rod because he would just blow up the entire area, including himself. Yeah, he's gotten better about that. Now he can blow up everything except himself. Part of that is control, part of that is fancy protective gear.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:12
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DrFrankenStrudel posted:Actually, for most of the series Harry has had some form of new/redesigned accessories in pretty much every book. That kind of magic is usually referred to as Thurmaturgy (creating an effect projected via a sympathetic item) and believe it or not, for most of the series Harry considers himself poor at Evocation (combat) magic, but gifted in thurmaturgy which is not to be confused with "subtlety" (mind magic, veils, illusions, ect). For examples of thurmaturgy see: force shield versions 1 and 2, Duster enchantment versions 1 and 2, potions, his ghost busting material, the bear belt (fool moon), the electric chain (small favor), force rings mark 1 and 2, the improved summoning circle (made of 3 different alloys, each etched with specifically chosen runes), little Chicago (insanely complex and precise), and those are just what I can thin of off the top of my head. He's only become good at combat magic because he's needed it to survive. I wasn't referring specifically to evocation vs thaumaturgy, though. Even his preparations are still the most direct way of doing things. His shield just stops poo poo, his duster enchants absorb force in a very oblique manner. His rings are literally designed only to smash things. I'd liken it to algorithm design. Sure, you can brute force the problem and if you have enough computing ability you'll get a solution in a reasonable time frame. But, if you apply a bit of research and cleverness, you can often get a solution much faster using fewer resources. Your point about him having basically no downtime is a good one though, and why I think his direction will change. He's learning that he can't keep running around like an rear end in a top hat blowing poo poo up with no consequences. He's got to learn how to be subtle and apply pressure in the right places.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:13
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The rings really show how Harry does things. If it works, stack it, if it doesn't work, make it even stronger and smashier.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:18
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veekie posted:The rings really show how Harry does things. If it works, stack it, if it doesn't work, make it even stronger and smashier. Harry is basically a D&D wizard as played by a person new to the system. Newbie wizards always for the big bang type spells while not realizing that the real power is in the more subtle stuff. Throwing fireballs is awesome, but not all that efficient in the long run.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:21
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veekie posted:He's naturally good at combat magic for sheer magical lifting ability though. Sure his control is crap, but if you want to kill everything within five hundred meters, Harry's your man. Just because he's always had the raw power doesn't mean he had any innate skill with it. In Dresden's case, every time he went balls to the wall for the first half of the series there was massive collateral damage and he was haunted by his actions for a long time, in later books he's still pretty sloppy but he's gotten better at picking isolated locations for his brawls. (hence his reputation as a sloppy brute)
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Nov 13, 2013 19:30
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DrFrankenStrudel posted:Just because he's always had the raw power doesn't mean he had any innate skill with it. In Dresden's case, every time he went balls to the wall for the first half of the series there was massive collateral damage and he was haunted by his actions for a long time, in later books he's still pretty sloppy but he's gotten better at picking isolated locations for his brawls. (hence his reputation as a sloppy brute) That's exactly what I said, he's a great guy in a fight if you want to replicate ground zero of a fuel air bomb.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:34
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AllTerrineVehicle posted:I wasn't referring specifically to evocation vs thaumaturgy, though. Even his preparations are still the most direct way of doing things. His shield just stops poo poo, his duster enchants absorb force in a very oblique manner. His rings are literally designed only to smash things. I'd liken it to algorithm design. Sure, you can brute force the problem and if you have enough computing ability you'll get a solution in a reasonable time frame. But, if you apply a bit of research and cleverness, you can often get a solution much faster using fewer resources. True, though I think Harry would make the counter-argument that if his duster deflected bullets instead of stopping them outright there's a real danger of ricochet into his friends or through the walls and into a neighbor's living room. Likewise his shield actually isn't dumb in the sense that it just "stops poo poo", it was the most complex foci he'd ever created, projecting a barrier capable of blocking solid matter, kinetic energy, magic, heat, cold, electricity, sound, and even light, it's inefficient because it does all of that at the same time, even wizards do business with physics. Ramirez's entropy shield by comparison is extremely efficient but the trade-off is that it's worthless against magic or a Renfield with a flamethrower. I don't think it's him being simple/direct so much as being extremely thorough, which is part of his personality. When you consider most of his complex creations they're incredibly complex and detailed down to a level that's borderline manic (little chicago alone was an epic amount of research and development) so their heavy resource draw is a natural symptom of Harry packing more effects and utility into the same devices, which is it's own form of efficiency provided you have enough fuel. I do agree though that he's going to become more refined moving forward, probably as soon as Skin Game.
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Nov 13, 2013 20:42
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pseudonordic posted:I recently started (and have burned my way through the first three books of) the Alex Verus series by Benedict Jacka. It's better than Iron Druid! Now I'm done with book 4 and it was a very, very entertaining read. Now the wait for book 5 begins. 
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Nov 13, 2013 22:18
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DrFrankenStrudel posted:True, though I think Harry would make the counter-argument that if his duster deflected bullets instead of stopping them outright there's a real danger of ricochet into his friends or through the walls and into a neighbor's living room. Likewise his shield actually isn't dumb in the sense that it just "stops poo poo", it was the most complex foci he'd ever created, projecting a barrier capable of blocking solid matter, kinetic energy, magic, heat, cold, electricity, sound, and even light, it's inefficient because it does all of that at the same time, even wizards do business with physics. Ramirez's entropy shield by comparison is extremely efficient but the trade-off is that it's worthless against magic or a Renfield with a flamethrower. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I just feel like he's missing out on potentially more elegant solutions. Like, it's already been shown that his rings can store up energy. Why not design a shield that instead of just blocking heat/cold/electricity/etc, stores them up into a battery or something? I guess I just want to see some next-level tricks coming from Harry given that Butcher makes such a huge deal about how dangerous wizards are with time to prepare, and Harry's "cleverness" skill or whatever is probably going to be powered up to the max after having to deal with (spoiler since I dunno where new guy is) constantly deal with the scheming and backstabbing of Mab et al while trying to hold on to his humanity Skin Game needs to be released yesterday.
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Nov 13, 2013 22:21
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I expect Skin Game to have a scene where Harry laughs off an attack that would have killed him earlier.
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Nov 13, 2013 22:27
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keiran_helcyan posted:Harry was essentially Helicopter Parenting Molly into the wizard world. Before Changes almost every book ends with a fight where Molly has to sit on the sidelines or man the getaway car. This is probably the morally correct thing to do (with her being psychically sensitive and all), but it's also not going to challenge her to realize her true potential any time soon. When Dresden took her into combat though and dropped her in the deep, she ended up with a severe case of PTSD though. She ends up living on the streets, snapping and lashing out from the paranoia, and as we see when we go into her mind she is still at war She wasn't made a "badass" and arguably she didn't survive
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Nov 13, 2013 23:21
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Wittgen posted:To the first, "we aren't shown" is the core of my point.
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Nov 13, 2013 23:24
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Fried Chicken posted:When Dresden took her into combat though and dropped her in the deep, she ended up with a severe case of PTSD though. She ends up living on the streets, snapping and lashing out from the paranoia, and as we see when we go into her mind she is still at war That was because he refused to let her into any minor fights, only to change his mind when he was desperate and the situation dire. You build up a resistance incrementally, bring her around to smaller messes, so that when the time comes she knows how to deal with it. Instead, she's sheltered from pretty much any stress at all during her apprenticeship, and then suddenly took her into a clusterfuck that'd blow the mind of even an experienced wizard.
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Nov 13, 2013 23:54
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