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caberham posted:Tasty but kind of pricey for everyday consumption. Can you guys please give me some recommendations of the "budget" version or alternatives? Or some wines which I can easily find when I go out to mid-priced restaurants? And what's with wines calling themselves "Premier Cru" ? You see the tag everywhere, from super market stuff to wine auction listings. First harvest wines don't really matter when the wine itself isn't that great. Look for generic region and/or village wines. Those wines there are from Grand Cru vineyards, which are legally defined vineyard sites that generally produce wines of very high quality. Premier Cru wines sit just below Grand Cru in the quality department. Simplified a bit, the quality system in Burgundy goes: Region - Grapes from one region, or labeled "Bourgogne" and can be sourced from anywhere in Burgundy Village - Grapes from one specific village Premier Cru - from a defined vineyard of good quality Grand Cru - top vineyard site, usually extremely high quality wines For whites look for Chablis, Macon, or maybe Chassagne-Montrachet or Meursault for a few bucks more. For reds look for Cote-de-Nuits Village, maybe some Nuits-St-George. Frankly as much as I love Burgundy I don't care for red Burgundy on the cheaper end. I think the whites are more impressive on a budget.
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Nov 8, 2013 10:24
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Crimson posted:Look for generic region and/or village wines :eng1011 Thanks for your help. It's what I suspected, I tried getting some cheaper generic region Burgundy reds and I don't have much luck  Should I look for Pinot noires or the comparison is not correct? I don't want to devolve into New World/Old World preferences and choices, but do you have any suggestions for a red wine along the cheaper end? Cabernet Sauvignon or generic "Medoc/Bordeaux" to me is so so. I tried a few Malbecs and I really like the taste too! **** Anyways, thanks for the help Okay, I'm going to go drink these all. caberham fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 10:51
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Great recommendations. I'll just expand a bit so you know what the typical style of all those wines are. Chablis: Elegant and mineral driven. Not typically oaked below premier cru level. Macon: Intermediate style, usually with a little richness and balancing acidity. For me the best value in Burgundy. Cheassagne-Montrachet: A little richer than Macon. Theoretically with better minerality too, but I don't see it at the village level often. Meursault: Most opulent style in Burgundy. What every California winemaker is trying to make, but real Meursault is generally more nutty than buttery, and still retains good acid. As for reds, I also agree with Crimson that Burgundy is generally poor value. New Zealand makes most of the best Pinot Noir in the New World, give some of theirs a try. Generally the lower the alcohol percentage, the more of a Burgundian style.
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Nov 8, 2013 10:57
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caberham posted:Thanks for your help. It's what I suspected, I tried getting some cheaper generic region Burgundy reds and I don't have much luck Yes red Burgundy is primarily Pinot Noir. For good Pinot around the $20-30 range I really like Sonoma Coast. Failla, Siduri, Hirsch to name a few. Willamette Valley Pinots tend to be slightly more Burgundian in style and can be great too. J. Christopher and Evening Land are pretty good. Actually if you're able to get it in your area, German Pinot Noir (sometimes labeled "Spatburgunder") can be really fantastic. Becker's Pinots are delicious. They can be really mineral driven and interesting.
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Nov 8, 2013 11:31
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I'm having trouble finding a Chateauneuf de Pape at a modest price that's not really young. If I wanted to find out what a Chateauneuf is like, would a 2011 at least give me an idea of what the wines are like, or would little of the character have developed yet?
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Nov 9, 2013 22:33
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Speaking of Chateauneuf-du-Pape, doesn't this cork look like a wine that's been stored to hot? Our what other conditions could bring about wine creeping up like that? It didn't taste bad, but perhaps a more experienced palate would have noticed something. I bought it in an airport shop at Vantaa, Finland. Also bought a Côte du Rhône from the same producer, it was corked and ended up in the sink. Last time I bought airport wine was in Copenhagen, picked up a Barolo, also corked. Not a big sample size (other bottles were ok), but compared to the many bottles I've bought in the regular Norwegian state owned shops without ever getting a single bad one, I wonder if I should skip buying airport wine. Bottles that go in high volumes might be fine every time, but some of the lower volume ones might be sitting for months straight up, brightly lit in warm, dry air, 24/7. Probably best to skip airport wine shopping?
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Nov 10, 2013 22:01
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But duty free is great! Airport booze is the easiest way to bring in liquor without checking a bag. Hey guys, thanks so much for the Pinot Noir suggestions. I tried this the other day, it's from the glass, some house wine.  It had a nice nose and very crisp taste to it but it's no Clos de Vougeot  After taste is kind of "flat". Not sure if I'm explaining things correctly but it's more of a "single note" taste. Still smells nice. Feel free to call me an idiot. Anyways, off to go find more wines!
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Nov 11, 2013 03:09
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I suggest NZ's Waipara region if you're looking for cooler, more mineral Pinot than Otago.Ola posted:Speaking of Chateauneuf-du-Pape, doesn't this cork look like a wine that's been stored to hot? Our what other conditions could bring about wine creeping up like that? High alcohol wines like CDP will erode the cork. It's fine. Edit: That is to say, if it tastes fine, it's fine. A cork can be a complete disaster; as long as you enjoy the wine, it's good. Kasumeat fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 05:28
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Ola posted:Speaking of Chateauneuf-du-Pape, doesn't this cork look like a wine that's been stored to hot? Our what other conditions could bring about wine creeping up like that? The cork looks fine to me. If the seepage had come right to the top you might have a problem but that isn't the case here. Because cork is a natural product you can get a huge amount of variation from bottle to bottle, even with the same wine. If a wine was corked (i.e. TCA taint) it has nothing to do with the storage condition of the bottle and more to do with the lovely cork the producer used. TCA is due to a fungus from the cork bark reacting to bleaches used in the manufacturing process. If the faults you found were oxidation or a cooked taste to the wine then storage could be cause the problem, although it needn't be the storage at the airport that caused the problem - wine being shipped in bottles is exposed to all sorts of temperature variations if the shipping container isn't refrigerated.
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Nov 11, 2013 05:54
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Kasumeat posted:High alcohol wines like CDP will erode the cork. It's fine. Speaking of which, does anyone here own port tongs? I have no reason to buy a set, but that's never stopped me before. That'll be the push I need to start buying (and drinking) old Port.
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Nov 11, 2013 07:28
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No but I've thought of making some from some wire and some bits of wood as handles. You don't need to use them on port, you can open any old bottle with them it's just that vintage port was typically the wine that people kept for the longest.
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Nov 11, 2013 08:37
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gay picnic defence posted:You don't need to use them on port, you can open any Fixed. I'm going to start breaking the screw-caps off of Vinho Verde and Beaujolais Nouveau. Fake Edit: Serious question; do any of the Goon Somm Army ever actually use one?
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Nov 12, 2013 03:26
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Stitecin posted:Fake Edit: Serious question; do any of the Goon Somm Army ever actually use one? Absolutely not. Looks like they might be using it at Eleven Madison Park though. I don't know if we have much of an army. I'd be curious to know if any other goons are actually working somms on a fine dining floor.
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Nov 12, 2013 12:04
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gay picnic defence posted:No but I've thought of making some from some wire and some bits of wood as handles. You don't need to use them on port, you can open any old bottle with them it's just that vintage port was typically the wine that people kept for the longest. I always refer to these by their colloquial French name which is Butler's Best Friend which implies they are both useful for opening wines with old/soft corks and for opening wines surreptitiously.
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Nov 12, 2013 22:36
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gay picnic defence posted:
Oh ok. The CdP was ok, but the other was horrid, moldy basement which hit the nose right when the cork popped. Anyway, the rate of tainted wines from airports vs non-tainted from local store stands. Next time, whiskey. Anyway, perhaps I can ask you guys about something else. Me and my friends are having dinner on the weekend. It started out as a wine tasting only, but we figure we need to eat so might as well make a hearty meal out of it. Menu: 1. Creamy mushroom soup 2. Beef braised in red wine 3. Cheese 4. Chocolate cake I talked to my local store, I only knew I wanted a Barolo for the main course. Ended up with these recommendations: 1. Burgundy 2. Said Barolo 3. Aglianico 4. Recioto della Valpolicella The Burgundy she selected (don't remember anything about it) is apparently a perfect match for creamy mushroom soup. Since the others are Italian, is there an Italian alternative to Burgundy here? Perhaps best to stick to a perfect match than to stick to a single country for no good reason? The Aglianico was new to me. Reading about it, it seems like it can be very hard and tannic, although the bottle in the store was a 2000 so it should be somewhat mature. The idea was that we'd have both it and the Barolo to compare with against the braised beef and cheese. Good idea? Do you have a better Italian choice for cheeses, perhaps a fruiter one? Wlil be interesting anyway, thought it was a nice bonus that Aglianico was "the principal grape of the famous Falernian wine". Which cheeses? Dunno, I'll pick the wine first. For dessert I was going for eiswein or something, but she recommended that one + chocolate, which is supposed to be amazing. Anyone tried it? Also, I had never heard about port tongs before, just youtubed it. 
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Nov 12, 2013 23:12
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I'm not sure how a butler would get away with having snapped the top 1/8 off of a bottle to get around an old stuck cork that would crumble if he tried to pull it with a cork screw. I'm talking about using one of these: 
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Nov 12, 2013 23:26
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Overwined posted:I always refer to these by their colloquial French name which is Butler's Best Friend which implies they are both useful for opening wines with old/soft corks and for opening wines surreptitiously. I thought a butlers friend was the thing with the two flat prongs that slide down either side of the cor to get it out without damaging it (so it can be put back in once that bottle of Grange has been topped up with a $20 supermarket shiraz). Port tongs are the metal things that snap glass when you heat them up and wrap them around the neck of the bottle. Ola posted:Oh ok. The CdP was ok, but the other was horrid, moldy basement which hit the nose right when the cork popped. Anyway, the rate of tainted wines from airports vs non-tainted from local store stands. Next time, whiskey. That moldy aroma is pretty characteristic of TCA, but like I say that has more to do with the corks the winery is buying rather than the airport. But now that you can get screwcaps made especially to allow certain amounts of oxygen permeation hopefully corks will gently caress off forever.
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Nov 13, 2013 04:28
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Hey wine goons, I'm getting married in a couple weeks and I want to buy a gift for my fiancee's brother-in-law, who's helped us out with a lot of the preparations. He loves wine and has a reputation for being kind of a snob, and meanwhile I know jack-all about wine. Any suggestions for a bottle? I'm not looking to spend more than about $30.00 on it.
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Nov 13, 2013 19:52
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Ola posted:Menu: I would caution you with pairing Aglianico with cheese, although without knowing what the cheese selection is I can't say whether the pairing will be abominable or merely inoffensive. Tannic red wines with cheese is, as far as I'm concerned, the worst classic wine-food pairing in history. They don't work with many cheeses at all. Blue cheeses with them are disgusting. Structurally, a higher acid tannic wine (such as your Aglianico) can work with soft cheese, but typically those cheeses have more delicate flavours that get overwhelmed by the wine. If it's something flavourful like Muenster, go for it. Firm cheeses can vary greatly. Delicately flavoured ones such as Manchego will again be overpowered by the wine, Cheddars' strange mouthfeel has a strong discord with the tannin. Stronger-flavoured firm cheeses can be okay. I highly recommend serving a well-made sweet wine instead, they work decently-to-magically with nearly every cheese in existence. High quality Italian ones can be hard to find, but ask your wine merchant for any white Vino de Paille: a white Recioto, a well-made Vin Santo, Ramandolo, etc. Recioto della Valpolicella is indeed excellent with chocolate, although I feel poor value compared to a sweet Port, Sherry, etc. Strange Matter posted:Hey wine goons, I'm getting married in a couple weeks and I want to buy a gift for my fiancee's brother-in-law, who's helped us out with a lot of the preparations. He loves wine and has a reputation for being kind of a snob, and meanwhile I know jack-all about wine. Any suggestions for a bottle? I'm not looking to spend more than about $30.00 on it. Well, for $30, you'll have to get something kinda freakish to please a wine snob. If he's a true snob, he won't care about what he's drinking, only the price, so you're out of luck. If he's more of a wine geek, you have more options. Orange wine (white wine made with significant skin contact) is the first thing to come to mind - availability varies widely regionally, so I can't offer specific recommendations. If you can't find any, any of the following will also do, although they may be difficult to find at this price point: Vin Jaune from Jura, Barolo Chinato, white Priorat, and Cremant de Jura.
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Nov 13, 2013 21:16
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Barolo and blue cheese is one of my favorite pairings ever. They combine to create this super rustic mish mash of earthly flavors, and the tannins keep the blue cheese from destroying your palate. Probably not for everyone, but man I think it's delicious. I actually find sweet wine with cheese to be fairly boring in general. Although they never clash, I generally get nothing new from either the cheese or the wine. I do really like to use higher acid sweets when called for though, like Hungarian Tokaji.
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Nov 13, 2013 21:38
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Kasumeat posted:I would caution you with pairing Aglianico with cheese Thanks for the tip! The recommendation I ended up with was pecorino and gouda. I think we'll have both the Barolo and the Aglianico (Radici Taurasi) in glasses to the main course and the cheese so we can compare our impressions. If it's terrible, we will at least have learned something.
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Nov 13, 2013 21:39
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Strange Matter posted:Hey wine goons, I'm getting married in a couple weeks and I want to buy a gift for my fiancee's brother-in-law, who's helped us out with a lot of the preparations. He loves wine and has a reputation for being kind of a snob, and meanwhile I know jack-all about wine. Any suggestions for a bottle? I'm not looking to spend more than about $30.00 on it. Kasumeat posted:Well, for $30, you'll have to get something kinda freakish to please a wine snob. If he's a true snob, he won't care about what he's drinking, only the price, so you're out of luck. If he's more of a wine geek, you have more options. Orange wine (white wine made with significant skin contact) is the first thing to come to mind - availability varies widely regionally, so I can't offer specific recommendations. If you can't find any, any of the following will also do, although they may be difficult to find at this price point: Vin Jaune from Jura, Barolo Chinato, white Priorat, and Cremant de Jura. Strange matter - you mentioned that he loves wine, and has a reputation for being kind of a snob, but didn't provide any info on, well, what kind of wine he likes. If he drinks primarily Napa Cab, or spoofy Bordeaux, and is snobby about that then Kasumeat's recommendations might not be good. Honestly, as someone who likes the weird and wonderful, if I were buying blind for someone in the US who "loves wine and has a reputation for being kind of a snob" but about whom I had very little other info I would probably grab a cheaper bottle of Ridge. I think what some wine folks forget is that to a non wine drinker, even knowing something so trivial to a Somm such as that most Bordeaux wines are blends can be sufficient to be labeled a snob.
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Nov 13, 2013 21:59
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Crimson posted:Barolo and blue cheese is one of my favorite pairings ever. They combine to create this super rustic mish mash of earthly flavors, and the tannins keep the blue cheese from destroying your palate. Probably not for everyone, but man I think it's delicious. I actually find sweet wine with cheese to be fairly boring in general. Although they never clash, I generally get nothing new from either the cheese or the wine. I do really like to use higher acid sweets when called for though, like Hungarian Tokaji. Barolo and blue cheese is definitely one of the stranger pairings I've heard in a while. What kind of blue cheese are you eating with it? I can kind of see that working with something a little more fruit forward like a langhe Nebbiolo, but Barolo (unless we're talking 20-30 years of age) seems far too tannic to work. All I can see it doing is bringing out the ammonia in blue cheese. My personal favorite cheese pairing is white Rioja, especially something with some age on it. Lopez de heridia vina gravonia is also a really interesting wine that can be had for less than thirty bucks, and the current release already has ten years of age.
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Nov 13, 2013 22:51
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Strange Matter posted:Hey wine goons, I'm getting married in a couple weeks and I want to buy a gift for my fiancee's brother-in-law, who's helped us out with a lot of the preparations. He loves wine and has a reputation for being kind of a snob, and meanwhile I know jack-all about wine. Any suggestions for a bottle? I'm not looking to spend more than about $30.00 on it. Bump up your budget to $40 and get a set of at least four nice wine glasses. Ridel, Spiegelau, something decent that doesn't have a thick rounded lip on the top. If the guy is a snob (or perceived as such), it's going to be impossible to figure out his particular tastes without asking him directly. Nice crystal is always welcome, and it will always be useful. Don't go crazy wondering whether you need the Burgundy glass or the Oregon Pinot Noir glass, and skip the little stemless tumblers. Just good, classic wine glasses from a respected producer.
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Nov 13, 2013 23:12
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pork never goes bad posted:Strange matter - you mentioned that he loves wine, and has a reputation for being kind of a snob, but didn't provide any info on, well, what kind of wine he likes. If he drinks primarily Napa Cab, or spoofy Bordeaux, and is snobby about that then Kasumeat's recommendations might not be good. Honestly, as someone who likes the weird and wonderful, if I were buying blind for someone in the US who "loves wine and has a reputation for being kind of a snob" but about whom I had very little other info I would probably grab a cheaper bottle of Ridge. I think what some wine folks forget is that to a non wine drinker, even knowing something so trivial to a Somm such as that most Bordeaux wines are blends can be sufficient to be labeled a snob. This is fair - around here when I think of wine snob, I think first of somebody who likes expensive wine, which as I said, is not something you can get for $30, so I defaulted to who I think of next: somebody who pretends to like orange wine and the like. In most of the US I suppose you might mean somebody who likes Napa wine.
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Nov 14, 2013 05:33
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"Pretends to like"!! I like orange wine very much, thank you.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:16
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After hearing about orange wine for the first time on this page of this thread, I am extremely intrigued and want to try it. Too bad the most reasonable bottle I can find on a menu around here is $70, and the big liquor stores around here don't have any in their online databases.
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Nov 14, 2013 20:45
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pork never goes bad posted:"Pretends to like"!! Please ignore my poo poo talking. I have a bit of a tendency to do a lot of it when talking about wine. That said, I think most of the people who "like" orange wine are way more in love with its romantic notion than the reality of what's in the bottle. I've had great orange wine, but for me it's the exception. I'd like to think that winemaking has advanced (for the better) over the past 5000 years, but orange wine by its very nature hasn't. I also have a bit of a personal bias against it because I work as a somm in a restaurant with a very small wine list, and our orange wine (which I didn't order) is a huge problem. It has a great narrative, but honestly most guests who try it hate it, or at the very least don't want a whole bottle, so it's really difficult to sell. It also has a pretty narrow range of good food pairings. And finally the bottle variation is enormous; I've loved and hated different "sound" bottles from the same case.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:11
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I don't know if this is the same category as orange wine, but I am enamored with a local chocolate wine to the extent that it will be part of my gifting repertoire this holiday season.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:21
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Kasumeat posted:Please ignore my poo poo talking. I have a bit of a tendency to do a lot of it when talking about wine. I think anybody who's heard the phrase orange wine and understood it probably has a tendency to poo poo talk in one way or the other when discussing it! With regards to the somm perspective, is not most of that also true of, e.g., Fino Sherry? Don't you feel that we are losing something important when drinks like Sherry, Marsala, Madeira, sous voile Jura wine, and yes, traditional orange wine, disappear from menus? That we're losing something when palates become so unsophisticated, or if that seems objectionable then when our palates evolve away from these longstanding traditions? Many of the restaurants where I live have good selections of wines like this, and many of them indicate explicitly on the menu that they are honestly quite unapproachable. Often the waiter or somm will double check that you know what you're getting into, or offer a taste of an oxidative style wine to compare against. Similar discussions often ensue when ordering Cornelissen, or really any weird "natural" wine. Usually the somms are enthusiastic about the opportunity to broaden horizons, but up front about the fact that these wines can be challenging. And, the littlest prince, orange wine in this context means wine made with white grapes, but with extended skin contact. There's a few different ways to make it - more or less oxidised, in kvevri, steel, wood, with short skin contact as in many Pinot Gris, or with very extended skin contact often longer than in many red wines as in much kvevri wine. There are some traditional styles of wine involving maceration of orange peels, and I suppose you could ferment orange juice to make a kind of orange wine (does anyone do this?), but you'd typically find them referred to by more specific designations - in this case orange is a color like "red" or "white" that refers to a fairly well defined class of grape wines.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:39
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Orange wine from citrus alone doesn't work very well because the citric acid is food for microbes so in the early days when one of the main advantages of wine (other than getting wasted) was longevity wine from citrus would not have lasted long enough to be worthwhile.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:45
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I was pairing 60 day aged raw lamb with skin contact pinot gris, and it was probably my most popular pairing. They can be really interesting when they work well, but yeah I wouldn't find many instances where I'd recommend a whole bottle with a meal.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:46
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pork never goes bad posted:I think anybody who's heard the phrase orange wine and understood it probably has a tendency to poo poo talk in one way or the other when discussing it! What separates orange wine (and let me be clear, I'm talking strictly about the super tannic, super oxidative qvevri style that's either from Georgia or from producers imitating it) from all those other styles is that wine geeks are so romanced by the idea of it that they don't stop to actually taste the wine. I love oxidative styles of wine, but these take it way, way too far. As far as from a restaurant perspective, there's a huge difference in selling Georgian orange wine vs. all those other styles. Ignoring the fact that the latter are technically superior wines, all of them have aspects that make them much better choices for a restaurant to stock. Mostly, they already have a consumer base that isn't wine industry. I have literally never seen a person outside the industry request orange wine, unlike all those other funky styles. Again, they pair much, much better with food. Not only are they more versatile wines in a vacuum, they have cuisines associated with them that actually appear on menus. It's super easy to sell Sherry when you have Andalucian food on the menu, Marsala and Sicilian, etc. Georgian cuisine deserves more credit than it gets, but that doesn't mean anybody is selling it.
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Nov 17, 2013 21:43
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Hey goons, tried this wine and I thought it was pretty decent. I like the stronger mineral taste and finish. However, the nose smells nice but you really have to give it a stronger whiff to pick up anything. Thanks goons for the recommendations. Normally, Macon would be white wines but this red variety is decent. It's slightly expensive because of currency exchange rates. USD 40 but I suspect other places would sell it for 30. Any other recommendations?
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Nov 19, 2013 10:49
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Any recommended online stores? I had a wine from Gonon at a restaurant, and now I'm trying to find some place I could buy it.caberham posted:Hey goons, tried this wine and I thought it was pretty decent. I like the stronger mineral taste and finish. However, the nose smells nice but you really have to give it a stronger whiff to pick up anything.
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Nov 20, 2013 05:31
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Oregon is starting to make some great skin-contact Pinot Gris that is a beautiful orange color. They are worth trying if you see them. I was involved in a great tasting last night at St. Jack in PDX last night:  The wines from right to left: 1962 Croizet Bages (magnum), 1966 Pape Clement, 1966 Phelan Segur, 1975 Beychevelle, 1978 Bel Air Legrave, 1989 Lynch Bages, 1991 Hidden Springs Oregon dessert Riesling, 1991 Latour, 1995 Haut Batailley, 1998 Beauregard, 2003 Larnathe Sauternes, 2003 De Malle Sauternes, NV Ulysse Collin Champagne Extra Brut Blanc de Blancs Les Pierrières The Latour, Beychevelle and Croizet Bages were my three favorites. The Pape Clement was over the hill, the Lynch Bages was underwhelming, the Larnathe Sauternes tasted horrible. The Bel Air Legrave, a $25 wine, was surprisingly good. And that Ulysse Collin Champagne.... as always, really freaking good.
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Nov 20, 2013 17:18
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I had some cheap Valpolicella classico and it tasted and smelled like tequila. Is that normal?
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Nov 23, 2013 05:32
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Please suggest me some wines I can bring to Thanksgiving. I'm meeting my dude's parents. He says they like cabs. I don't think they're picky. There will be turkey. I'm in Oakland.
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Nov 24, 2013 04:12
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Drink and Fight posted:Please suggest me some wines I can bring to Thanksgiving. I'm meeting my dude's parents. He says they like cabs. I don't think they're picky. There will be turkey. I'm in Oakland. How much are you looking to spend? Under $20, I've had good luck with Chateau St. Michelle "Indian Wells" cab from Washington and J. Lohr cab from Paso Robles. Both are around $15. 4/20 NEVER FORGET fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 12:41
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4/20 NEVER FORGET posted:How much are you looking to spend? Thanks. $20 is fine, I can go higher, but I'd like to not have to drive all over the city looking for it at this point.
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Nov 24, 2013 18:26
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