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The Southern Dandy posted:Emporer arises, does Grand Crusade, is crippled due to Heresy, lies on Golden Throne, other poo poo ensues. That's a story arc. You just answered your own question. The Emperor lies on the Golden Throne, that's the end of the arc.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:35
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The Southern Dandy posted:And not doing an endgame just drives some people off because it's pointless nonsense. You don't seem to understand GW's business plan. They are a publicly traded company and release annual business reports, the contents of which have been discussed both in threads in the Traditional Games forums as well as other forums that discuss plastic mans. I'm going to lay out that business plan to you. 1.) Get kids to buy plastic mans, and plastic mans accessories. 2.) When the kids get too old to buy these kinds of things, release new products that get new kids to buy new plastic mans. 2a) Maybe those older kids buy the books or the video games, but those are a tiny part of our yearly profit so who gives a poo poo about them. 3.) Go back to Step 1. I'm not even simplifying this business plan. They literally say in their yearly reports that retention of older fans is not a priority, because they make such a huge portion of their profits from new fans buying whole armies. They've made an assload of money on the licenses they sell for the video games and it's still chump change compared to what they make selling new plastic mans to young boys. From their point of view it doesn't matter if stagnation drives people off. You were already too old to be their main demographic when you bought your first Black Library book. That's also why they change the meta-plot and gently caress around with rules in each new Codex, because they really don't care if some 40K sperg gets pissed, because he is probably too old to be their main customer anyway.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:36
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The Southern Dandy posted:Emporer arises, does Grand Crusade, is crippled due to Heresy, lies on Golden Throne, other poo poo ensues. That's a story arc. Yeah a story arc that ends with him a crippled husk trapped in the Golden Throne unable to interact in any observable manner with anyone again. Notice how there's a beginning (Emperor arises on earth and begins a crusade), then a conflict arises (his beloved son betrays him and kicks off a massive civil war) which continues to build in intensity in an extended middle bit until a climactic confrontation between the Emperor and his wayward son in the middle of a massive battle for the throne of earth, ending in the Emperor destroying his son but being critically wounded himself. After the climax, there's a denoument as the rebel forces retreat and the Emperor himself is interred in the golden throne and lapses into silence forever. And then, in the extended ending, his sons set up a successor government before themselves eventually disappearing forever. Note how there's a beginning, middle, climax, and end? And how it starts in a state of stasis, with Earth alone and locked in technobarbarism, and ends in a state of stasis, with every major player dead, disappeared, or stuck unable to do anything for an indefinite amount of time? That's called a narrative. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 22:38
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Anonymous Zebra posted:You don't seem to understand GW's business plan. They are a publicly traded company and release annual business reports, the contents of which have been discussed both in threads in the Traditional Games forums as well as other forums that discuss plastic mans. I'm going to lay out that business plan to you. No, I get it. I'm just saying it's boring and stale.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:40
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NO ONE GIVES A poo poo ABOUT YOUR WHINING YOU SOUTHERN IDIOT.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:42
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Cream_Filling posted:Yeah a story arc that ends with him a crippled husk trapped in the Golden Throne unable to interact in any observable manner with anyone again. Notice how there's a beginning (Emperor arises on earth and begins a crusade), then a conflict arises (his beloved son betrays him and kicks off a massive civil war) which continues to build in intensity in an extended middle bit until a climactic confrontation between the Emperor and his wayward son in the middle of a massive battle for the throne of earth, ending in the Emperor destroying his son but being critically wounded himself. After the climax, there's a denoument as the rebel forces retreat and the Emperor himself is interred in the golden throne and lapses into silence forever. And then, in the extended ending, his sons set up a successor government before themselves eventually disappearing forever. Guess we'll agree to disagree on definitions? I know the story; it's tired.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:42
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VanSandman posted:NO ONE GIVES A poo poo ABOUT YOUR WHINING YOU SOUTHERN IDIOT. Classy
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Nov 14, 2013 22:46
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The Southern Dandy posted:Guess we'll agree to disagree on definitions? I know the story; it's tired. No not really. Again, describe for me this narrative thread running through two unrelated 40k books that's not just a hash of unrelated and random references/connections/background but a real, contiguous line with beginning, middle, and end. Like, say, the Cain books and the Gaunt's Ghosts series. Both are about army mans (space ww2 russians and space irish rangers, respectively) who shoot bad guys with laser guns and yell "for the emperor" a lot. But what is the narrative that connects those two properties? What makes them part of the same story? What is the anything (you don't have to use fancy words here) that makes these two more connected than the surface similarities I've just described? And why does not finding out whether humanity is destroyed forever or not centuries later somehow detract from this? OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 22:49
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Cream_Filling posted:No not really. Again, describe for me this narrative thread running through two unrelated 40k books that's not just a hash of unrelated and random references/connections/background but a real, contiguous line with beginning, middle, and end. Like, say, the Cain books and the Gaunt's Ghosts series. Both are about army mans (space ww2 russians and space irish rangers, respectively) who shoot bad guys with laser guns and yell "for the emperor" a lot. But what is the narrative that connects those two properties? What makes them part of the same story? What is the anything (you don't have to use fancy words here) that makes these two more connected than the surface similarities I've just described? I'm sorry but if you can't piece it together from what I've already posted, then I don't think you'll get it. Also, I don't appreciate your attempt at condescension. I'll try one more time, and then leave this thread to you and your bolter porn aficionados who love to read the same story over and over. All the novels you read about the Grey Knights, the Iron Warriors, the Cadians, the Salamanders, the Dark Eldar, all happen in the larger idea of an overarching narrative. That narrative is the story of 40k. If you need an explanation for that see my earlier posts. I get that GW doesn't want to advance that narrative as they make a lot of money from keeping it the way it is. My point is that the LARGER NARRATIVE OF THE EMPORER AND HUMANITY AT LARGE WOULD BE MORE INTERESTING IF SOMETHING META HAPPENED, like the Emporer dying, arising, whatever just to move the larger story forward. As it is right now, and the way it has been for years, it's boring.
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Nov 14, 2013 23:07
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Anonymous Zebra posted:You don't seem to understand GW's business plan. They are a publicly traded company and release annual business reports, the contents of which have been discussed both in threads in the Traditional Games forums as well as other forums that discuss plastic mans. I'm going to lay out that business plan to you. Also relatively recent moves like introducing the Tau, retconning the Necrons, messing with the Chaos lineup, and adding flying units for every side have all mixed things up pretty good even though they had absolutely zero impact on the overall setting. Basically the last time the situation in the setting was even budged at all was when they introduced the Tyranids, and even then only as a new set of potential apocalypses and bad guys to fight. The overall culture and setup of the universe is still identical, of course, except now the Imperium really hates these new aliens, just like they hate every other group of aliens. Oh and also some fluff stuff about the Ultramarines First Company all dying (and then being replaced again and also we still sell all the same models so it makes zero difference). And Abaddon getting a foothold on Cadia in his latest Black Crusade (but everyone's still fighting so it makes zero difference and Abaddon always gets a token set of wins every time he appears). edit: actually I guess the original introduction of the necrons also sort of changed things. Not in any concrete way, but in the sense that "a ctan did it" was appended to every other thing of the setting. Though this has thankfully mostly disappeared or at least been heavily downplayed and ignored with the new necrons. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 23:10
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The Southern Dandy posted:I'm sorry but if you can't piece it together from what I've already posted, then I don't think you'll get it. Also, I don't appreciate your attempt at condescension. Except you're focusing on a "larger narrative" that doesn't actually exist. You've yet to argue for its existence or describe it in any convincing manner. I've asked some really basic questions that you should be able to answer if this narrative really was a thing, but so far you haven't been able to do so. Tell me what benefit you think would arise from the altering the current situation of uncertainty and ambiguity where any faction could potentially win and destroy all the other factions, and instead moving towards a definite conclusion where one side wins. What would be the benefit to readers, players, or storytellers? How would this expand the opportunities for storytellers and players or bring something new and appealing to readers that wasn't possible before? It seems that you keep falling back on these silly passive-aggressive comments about unsophisticated "bolter porn aficionados" because you can't actually formulate arguments beyond insisting that you're right. I'm trying to get you to describe the reasoning behind your position in really basic, accessible terms. That way I can explain to you why I think your reasoning is wrong. Currently, the 40k setting has been the basis for everything from homages to hard boiled detective novels to Flashman/Hornblower knock-offs to more mainstream military sci-fi and adventure stories. It's a fairly well-managed setting (though I am not a fan of the HH series and its effect on the setting) and I'm not seeing how what you're suggesting would be of any real benefit to anyone beyond relieving whatever dramatic tension binds you personally to the setting.
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Nov 14, 2013 23:39
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The Southern Dandy posted:No, I get it. I'm just saying it's boring and stale. It's a setting. It's like you're complaining that stories set in the wild west or the cold war, or any period piece whatsoever, are boring and stale because of the time and place they choose.
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Nov 14, 2013 23:50
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Haha isn't the whole point of 40k is that everything is stupidly grim (and stupid) whilst frozen right on the edge of a final descent into oblivion? That the 'good guys' are a stagnant, ignorant empire crumbling into decay? Whilst ridiculous and variously themed giant Space Marines fight Space Orcs, Space Elves and Space Demons in an endless war just to hold the line? Changing anything major would be changing 40k as it stands now, I'd rather just read about some dumb Black Crusades or Heresy battles that we don't know anything about yet rather than the implications of the Emperor dying.  Also I finished reading the Emperor's Gift recently and thought it was quite good. Couldn't actually believe he'd tied in Zael Effernetti from Ravenor! The cold war with the Wolves helped illustrate how hosed everyone in the whole setting is really is, no happy endings for anyone involved there. Really loved the Bjorn cameo and the character's reactions to it, literally a grumpy old coffin-bot telling the inquisition to get off his lawn 
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Nov 15, 2013 00:05
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The Southern Dandy posted:LOL. I understand. I understand WG has no interest in advancing the narrative. My point is it's boring. Got that? Seriously guys, this is why I tell people not to talk about "endgame". This fucker right here.
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Nov 15, 2013 00:41
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VanSandman posted:I will read then subsequently mock all fanfiction submitted to me... then I will offer up my bad writings in response. The ASOIAF thread does it, why not us? Back in the day, there was 40K fanfiction in the ASOIAF thread 
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Nov 15, 2013 01:28
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Kylaer posted:Back in the day, there was 40K fanfiction in the ASOIAF thread I read it. It was pretty good. 
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Nov 15, 2013 01:33
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 I wrote it. Glad you enjoyed it, it was in truth tremendously fun to write. I need to get back into writing.
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Nov 15, 2013 01:39
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Shut up about narratives. No fighting in the Warhammer 40k thread! Here, read Kylaer's magnum opus instead - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw4Dk9xE9da9Mk9Gd2FGQllGUEE/edit?usp=sharing
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Nov 15, 2013 06:38
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Shroud posted:Shut up about narratives. No fighting in the Warhammer 40k thread! Still better than battle of the abyss. So reading Fear to Tread, i am getting really confused as to when the whole thing with Magnus/Prospero occurs. In the outcast dead (and a couple others if i recall), it seems to imply that it occurs during around the same time as Horus is in open rebellion. Then oddly Fear to Tread/Thousand Suns implies it occurs before Isstvan.  Is Mcneill just loving with us?
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Nov 15, 2013 07:29
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UberJumper posted:
Maybe he's doubling down on his initial fuckup.
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Nov 15, 2013 09:01
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The Outcast Dead seems to just genuinely be wrong since it's the only one I know of that says Magnus made his long distance call AFTER Isstvan. However, in theory, it's completely possible that Russ and the Wolves burnt Prospero BEFORE Isstvan V (and possibly before Isstvan III). Recall that Fulgrim mentions Magnus loving up to Horus well before the massacres occur, and that the entire situation was orchestrated by agents of Chaos rather than Horus.
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Nov 15, 2013 09:57
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The Outcast Dead is a bad book with plotholes the size of Titans.
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Nov 15, 2013 09:59
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The Southern Dandy posted:Emporer arises, does Grand Crusade, is crippled due to Heresy, lies on Golden Throne, other poo poo ensues. That's a story arc. All in on killer whale.
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Nov 15, 2013 13:34
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It's not an either/or. They could easily have 5-10 years' worth of bona fide new progression with each new edition, say, and not come close to having to resolve things before the game goes the way of the dodo. Say it's ten in-setting years per game edition. Ten more editions would be a hundred years, which is barely an rear end hair on the setting timeline. That many editions would take fifty real time years to put out. Granted, this wouldn't appease anyone who wants an honest to god resolution, but I think lots of people just want a gradual sense of progression.
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Nov 15, 2013 18:09
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They set the "current" year at 999 M41 way back at the start of 2nd ed at least, so we're talking mid-90's here. "5-10 years' worth" means they have to change the name of the game next edition.
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Nov 15, 2013 18:50
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Nephilm posted:The Outcast Dead is a bad book with plotholes the size of Titans. Yeah it was a terrible book that seemed to fill very little point. I still don't know what happened with the last Luna Wolf (his death isn't mentioned), or why there was even a handful of space marines of various legions just sitting around on Terra (i was thinking emissaries for the various legions, however there doesn't seem to be any from other legions). Anyways, Fear to Tread so far has been pretty good. It was pretty interesting to see the changes of the world, as well as the general mystery that blood angels have from their perspective. Also gently caress Russ and his Wolves who enforce the edict of niketa yet at the same are blatantly using psykers. Also are the Nephilim the same aliens that took over Isstvan?
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Nov 15, 2013 19:48
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UberJumper posted:It was pretty interesting to see the changes of the world, as well as the general mystery that blood angels have from their perspective. Also gently caress Russ and his Wolves who enforce the edict of niketa yet at the same are blatantly using psykers. About the Wolves I thought that Russ's Runepriests didn't draw their power from the warp, but rather through the world-spirit of Fenris. There was a whole sub-plot in Battle of the Fang that focused on Magnus "putting it to sleep". I may be entirely wrong but it would be in line with all the special powers the wolves have and build up their being the executioner legion. My question in the current setting is how big the chapter is. From Battle of the Fang, it sounds like they are standard sized but other short stories and the like suggest that they are at or near ten-thousand. Is this written down anywhere or does it change on the author's bias like the Fists and Templars? Regarding story progression, I think the current Apocalypse line of products/stories/etc has potential to explore each race's "End Time" scenario a bit while having throwaway scenarios that aren't quite canon but follow the setting(s) set up by the main franchise plot. It seems that with the inital soft-launch back in 2008/9 and the doubling down in the past year speaks to GW pursuing a go big or go home strategy.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:05
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I think it's mentioned that a lot of the first legions intentionally keep their numbers unknown, I think it's even mentioned in The Emperor's Gift.
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Nov 15, 2013 21:15
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Anonymous Zebra posted:The Outcast Dead seems to just genuinely be wrong since it's the only one I know of that says Magnus made his long distance call AFTER Isstvan. However, in theory, it's completely possible that Russ and the Wolves burnt Prospero BEFORE Isstvan V (and possibly before Isstvan III). Recall that Fulgrim mentions Magnus loving up to Horus well before the massacres occur, and that the entire situation was orchestrated by agents of Chaos rather than Horus. In the audio 'sequel' to The Outcast Dead, Wolf Hunt it is actually explained. Basically Magnus's message actually arrived at the correct time, and the psychic backlash was contained by the palace. Magnus's power was too strong to contain and it eventually broke through the wards, and ended up being heard after Isstavan from the perspective of the outside world.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:21
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handbanana125 posted:About the Wolves Huh, I always figured the sorcery/psyker split was the source - psykers (and rune priests) are drawing power from themselves. Sorcerers are drawing it from a daemon. Like, the former is inate, the latter is like a vending machine - blood and skulls go in, power comes out. The Wolves weren't dealing with daemons the way the Sons were, so they got a pass. Same with astropaths and navigators. The Sons had been teaching the other librarians, so they might have been doing sorcery, so the Emperor ended all of that as a precaution. The Wolves never accepted outside instruction, so they were safe. Plus if you are worried about warp corruption, you wouldn't disarm your one legion that you use to take down your sons when they get warp corrupted
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Nov 15, 2013 23:09
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I think it's actually a slight variation on what you say. For both the psyker and the sorcerer, their power itself is derived from the Warp (even for Fenrisian psykers), but the psyker manipulates that power using their own will, whereas the sorcerer uses a daemon to assist them. In A Thousand Sons it was made very clear that the Thousand Sons were sorcerers, because their "Tutelaries" were straight-up daemons. That's a good point about the Sons being the teachers for the other legions' Librarians, and thus the concern for widespread corruption.
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Nov 16, 2013 00:07
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Arquinsiel posted:"5-10 years' worth" means they have to change the name of the game next edition. Not... really? The Horus Heresy novel I checked just now has the "Warhammer 40,000" logo featured on its back cover. It's a brand name, not a binding pact.
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Nov 16, 2013 01:59
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Why are people spergin about the stagnation of the storyline? Isn't that the entire appeal?
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Nov 16, 2013 02:40
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Blacktoll posted:Why are people spergin about the stagnation of the storyline? Isn't that the entire appeal? Some people are stupid.
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Nov 16, 2013 02:51
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JerryLee posted:Not... really? The Horus Heresy novel I checked just now has the "Warhammer 40,000" logo featured on its back cover. It's a brand name, not a binding pact. Hint: "that's not how it works in Dawn of War!" was usually about two per day per store on weekends back when it was bringing kids into them to learn mans after playing it.
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Nov 16, 2013 03:42
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Awake the Emperor, make him a model, and declare that model a new playable army, there. Would that make people happy?
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Nov 16, 2013 04:31
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JerryLee posted:It's a brand name, not a binding pact. ^^^ Is clearly not part of the inner circle
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Nov 16, 2013 04:40
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Sharkie posted:Awake the Emperor, make him a model, and declare that model a new playable army, there. Would that make people happy? Just that single model? Nice. Unfortunately it would not fit with GW's habit of selling shitloads of mans.
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Nov 16, 2013 04:54
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It'd cost about 400 on its own, what with them setting price points via army usefullness and number required to play.
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Nov 16, 2013 06:15
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Arquinsiel posted:It'd cost about 400 on its own, what with them setting price points via army usefullness and number required to play. His rules would be along the lines of Cain from WoD. "You lose."
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Nov 16, 2013 08:30
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