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Bedlamdan posted:I for one wish Plague of Hats best of luck in becoming a full time Internet poster. It is good no one was Holden him down and making him stay.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:07
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BryanChavez posted:Not darkly seductive enough for my tastes, what else have you got? Hang on, I've got just the thing. Let me just dig up- ...ah! Here we are: Mother May I: It is a sickening thing, the succcubus, a demon driven by Lust, yes, but often for a very damning purpose: to have a child. By stealing the semen of sleeping men, the succubus could impregnate herself with a child born of true sin. Here, the Possessed with this Vestment gains +3 Social rolls when dealing with children. They find the character very… parental. A dark irony, indeed.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:08
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Winson_Paine posted:It is good no one was Holden him down and making him stay. Ow. I'm bleeding from that. You have wounded me. And now I am addicted to your puns.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:13
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Winson_Paine posted:It is good no one was Holden him down and making him stay. That post is triggering. Everything is triggering. Ghostly titties appear like sunbursts from my eyes, make it stop. Also apparently I was just told that, no, Plague of Hats said that we shouldn't worry about how 3E is going to turn out, and said "No. Holden and Hatewheel are making a great game." This was admittedly a secondhand conversation on IRC so I'm sorry if Kukla is bullshitting and putting words in Plague's mouth.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:19
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Yeah there was more to it than "I have no confidence in this project anymore; all y'all can gently caress off," but the whole thing is private. As for "Full-time Internet poster," I think he's busy with... Evil Hat, maybe? Someone. He's still working in the hobby. Just not Exalted. His name is Charles Spaulding if you want to look for credits.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:21
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Stephenls posted:Yeah there was more to it than "I have no confidence in this project anymore; all y'all can gently caress off," but the whole thing is private. Until we get his bestselling unofficial tell-all after Ex3 is released, with all of the gory little secrets revealed.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:24
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I heard some rumors of the Dev Team being stretched really thin? Like, they're having trouble supporting everyone working on the line? Confirm/deny/abstain? 
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Nov 15, 2013 20:25
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Bedlamdan posted:Also apparently I was just told that, no, Plague of Hats said that we shouldn't worry about how 3E is going to turn out, and said "No. Holden and Hatewheel are making a great game." This was admittedly a secondhand conversation on IRC so I'm sorry if Kukla is bullshitting and putting words in Plague's mouth.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:28
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NIV3K posted:Does this thread have an IRC channel, or was it one for the main Exalted forums? I know there's an (unofficial) #exalted on SorceryNET that has a bunch of White Wolf Forums posters in it. I've never visited it, because it's got a bunch of White Wolf Forums posters in it.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:31
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Bedlamdan posted:I heard some rumors of the Dev Team being stretched really thin? Like, they're having trouble supporting everyone working on the line? Confirm/deny/abstain? We're aggressively recruiting writers for the supplements, but the core has to establish a new tone for the game—almost everyone involved except Holden and John—myself included—started out their 3e work by submitting text littered with 2e-isms inappropriate to the intended tone. The devs quickly realized any time they'd save by bringing more writers in on the core, they'd lose again with time spent correcting tone, so the corebook doesn't have enough writers to proceed at the pace we'd like to have. Hence delays. Once again, we expect things to improve once we're doing supplements. As for lack of support, I'm not sure what you mean. I've heard some people argue that CCP should be providing better health insurance for John? That's not how freelancing works, though.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:33
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Attorney at Funk posted:I know there's an (unofficial) #exalted on SorceryNET that has a bunch of White Wolf Forums posters in it. I've never visited it, because it's got a bunch of White Wolf Forums posters in it. Legitimately one of the smarter choices you will make, I say as I sit in it. They don't usually talk about Exalted anyway.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:34
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I understand why the Exalted crew didn't want to and don't have to discuss it, but it is a pretty big deal for those of us on this thread to see. Given we didn't get an official response, knowing there's been any response at all is pretty big news for us. And the team just needs to put a gag on Holden, I used to have a lot of respect and faith in him as a writer, and now... and now... 
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Nov 15, 2013 20:38
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I understand why the Exalted crew didn't want to and don't have to discuss it, but it is a pretty big deal for those of us on this thread to see. Given we didn't get an official response, knowing there's been any response at all is pretty big news for us. Yeeeahhh. If your first response to criticism is to batten down all hatches and get really defensive, community relations is the last place you should be. Damaging your own brand.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:49
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I understand why the Exalted crew didn't want to and don't have to discuss it, but it is a pretty big deal for those of us on this thread to see. Given we didn't get an official response, knowing there's been any response at all is pretty big news for us. You'd think Holden would learn to keep his mouth closed when it came to obvious hot button subjects. After all, no matter what you say you are probably pissing someone off. But nope, he just keeps shoving his foot further and further down his throat.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:50
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I think it's like the old song "Don't let your mods grow up to be PR guys."
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Nov 15, 2013 20:58
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I think it's like the old song "Don't let your mods grow up to be PR guys." Am I really doing so badly?
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Nov 15, 2013 21:10
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Stephenls posted:Am I really doing so badly? To be honest, I personally don't think you handled the Bureaucracy/CRM thing (I think that was two threads ago, so I'll have to go looking for examples) particularly well? I felt some of the comments you made were rather snide and passive-aggressive towards people who were just trying to engage in the discussion. But aside from that, you've been just fine.
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Nov 15, 2013 21:18
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Stephenls posted:Am I really doing so badly? For a person who hasn't had training in PR I think you've done reasonably alright.
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Nov 15, 2013 21:21
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Stephenls posted:Am I really doing so badly? You're doing fine. You seem to have a good understanding of PR 101, which is, 'don't respond to everything' and PR 102 which is, 'sometimes respond to things', so I think you're doing great. Srs question: Are we getting anything like Games of Divinity ever again? Please?
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Nov 15, 2013 21:23
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Stephenls posted:Am I really doing so badly? Ha ha, I was talking about Holden, and was also thinking of SKR, since there's a certain commonality of modding and defensiveness between the two. I didn't even know you were a mod, so no, it wasn't directed at you. Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Nov 15, 2013 21:26
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I understand why the Exalted crew didn't want to and don't have to discuss it, but it is a pretty big deal for those of us on this thread to see. Given we didn't get an official response, knowing there's been any response at all is pretty big news for us. I mean, this may sound terrible but I still have a lot of respect and faith in him as a writer. For all the problems that were in the Ink Monkey stuff, like Cobra Style, him and Hatewheel were probably the only two people actually keeping this lovely, broken game alive. The fact that Exalted didn't just end after Return of the Scarlet Empress was because they were willing to spend a year basically working for free. I've talked to Holden quite a bit, actually. I have no reason to doubt that he's a decent person, even if he's pretty bad at managing PR. Look, I'm going to be frank, and this is probably going to be my last post on the forums. I've had a period during my childhood when I was abused. One of my best friends right now was the victim of rape from someone both me and her brother considered a friend. I can't use Infernals as anything other antagonists with another old friend of mine that introduced me to Exalted, because they trigger her and remind her of the trauma she had to deal with as a child. When we suggested an Infernals game, she burst into tears, and we had a really good discussion about what we could and couldn't have in our games from then on. And we were all fine with that, because we liked her. Again, this is all anecdotal, but I don't presume to speak for anyone else. All of us, to this day, remain passionate fans of Exalted. Maybe I'm hosed up because of everything that happened, I don't know. But there was nothing recently that left me or the people who matter to me angry or hurt. I don't think I've ever felt legitimately offended or angry when a writer handles a touchy subject badly. And I think that this is a serious disconnect that I'm having with the rest of the community. I felt strongly enough to make fun of it on an internet forum for a few cheap laughs, but I don't think I've ever actually felt angry at people like James Raggi. I felt that, even though Arrows of Indra really wasn't the game for me, the author was still trying in good faith to be respectful of Indian culture. Maybe I'm just wrong, but I don't actually think something like LotFP or Kill Puppies for Satan is going to make the world a worse place, or enable bad people by telling them their behavior is glorified or permissible. It's possible that it does, but SA really doesn't seem to be the sort of place to have a frank discussion about whether it actually does or doesn't. It's something that has been bothering me for some time, and it's becoming pretty obvious that SA is not the place for me. I'm not really qualified to talk about social justice or contemporary issues, especially in the medium of the tradgaming hobby. And it's not wrong to talk about that subject, but neither is it a conversation that I enjoy having anymore. I just want to play a game with friends for four hours a week with friends, and Exalted just so happens to be our preferred game. It's not even just about Exalted, really, it's more of a general thing that's been going on in more than a few threads on Games. It's just that SA hasn't actually been all that fun for me for a while now. No hard feelings about any of this, and it has been fun when there haven't been flame-outs over serious topics for serious people. (I won't be surprised to see this in Grognards.txt, but again, no hard feelings.  )
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Nov 15, 2013 21:35
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NIV3K posted:You'd think Holden would learn to keep his mouth closed when it came to obvious hot button subjects. After all, no matter what you say you are probably pissing someone off. But nope, he just keeps shoving his foot further and further down his throat. Why do you just keep softballing them over the plate like this?
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Nov 15, 2013 21:53
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Bedlamdan posted:It's something that has been bothering me for some time, and it's becoming pretty obvious that SA is not the place for me. This thread is not about you, no one gives a poo poo about your personal issues, no one wants to hear you whine someone is liking the game incorrectly. If you wish to have e-cred for getting kicked out or quoted in grogs.txt, I can help with that I guess but I would rather not have you derail the thread again by trying to make it about you, you, you. Generally speaking I have banned for THIS IS MY LAST POST ON THE FORUMS, but I suspect that would probably validate your horseshit more than I am comfortable with. No one cares. If you are going to go away, do so. If you want to stay and have a grown up conversation with the other big kids, you are again welcome to do so. This ends the derail about bedlamdan and his need to be the center of attention.
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Nov 15, 2013 21:57
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I don't think the kind of tasteless stuff we've been discussing has some measurable impact on actual instances of sexual assault - I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised. What it does, though, is create a very unwelcome climate in the hobby for people like your friend, and for women/minorities in general. Even when they can get past that to see how much fun can be had with elfgames, it's still a barrier to overcome, and it reinforces the toxic, insular, boys'-club-no-girls-allowed attitudes so sadly prevalent in the playerbase at large (and this isn't really arguable - I'm pretty sure the collected grogs.txt dumps would cross the line from 'anecdotes' to 'data' by now).Stephenls posted:Am I really doing so badly? Nah, you're fine. Even when I disagree with your position, you explain your reasons well, and are quite consistent about them. This puts you at least one up on Holden, who seemed to forget that people could cross-check things he'd said in different places ("It's mean but it's not rape"/"It's totally rape by impaired judgment"; "I'm sorry for all my defensive flailing"/"I didn't apologize for poo poo")
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Nov 15, 2013 22:01
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Winson_Paine posted:This ends the derail about bedlamdan and his need to be the center of attention. That's fine, sorry about that.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:06
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I would prefer that not be grog.txted, for a few reasons, the very least of which is it seems kind of a cheap way to take a shot where someone is not strictly speaking allowed to hit back. Also I am going to chase the greater discussion of "what is harmful, ultimately" to the Industry Thread where it belongs, both because it is an interesting discussion and it is larger than Exalted as a game.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:06
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AdjectiveNoun posted:To be honest, I personally don't think you handled the Bureaucracy/CRM thing (I think that was two threads ago, so I'll have to go looking for examples) particularly well? I felt some of the comments you made were rather snide and passive-aggressive towards people who were just trying to engage in the discussion. I kinda miss the days when I was getting upset about potential handling of Bureaucracy/logistics/kingdoms/etc, really. 
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Nov 15, 2013 22:18
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Forts. History, Myth, and Media are full of dramatic events that pivot around defending or assaulting big 'ol fortifications, including a lot Exalted's source material. Most tablegames don't try, or try poorly, to make forts an element in play. They'll rarely be much more than terrain or a backdrop to the usual man-hits-man battles. It's been said that 3e has taken measures to make swarms and armies reasonable to use in fights, allowing battles to run smoothly at grander scales. Has any effort gone to supporting Troy and Thermopylae as things that happen out in game? Waging war would feel pretty incomplete without a good siege now and then.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:29
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Well. I'm not even really bothered by the new art at all, that's hardly a factor in my comments (so I didn't mention it). I think you're going to have some of that in Exalted. It's really a question of egregiousness and pervasiveness and I don't know what the rest of it is going to look like yet. I feel like some folks have been overtly reactionary, but I also think the lack of communication has exacerbated that. I might talk more about this in the actual industry thread, we'll see. I just thought that Holden is being overtly defensive and dismissive and engaging in that way isn't terribly productive. I don't think he's trying to be a jerk, but he's interacting with people with a heavy-handed swagger just like he did when he was a fan or a mod and he needs to wear a different hat as a writer. It could turn out it's all cool once the book is out, it could be me overreacting based on the tail of an elephant, but right now I'm feeling uncomfortable and offput as a backer, and I don't want to end up feeling that way.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:31
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Stephenls is a PR failure until such time as he convinces the devs to eliminate scaling XP costs and therefore the BP/XP chargen debacle.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:37
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I'm curious what the NDAs will look like for play testers. I'd love it if once it starts we could get a better feel for how the game is turning out.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:37
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Well. If you're going to write a tabletop roleplaying game, you're going to have some rat feces in there.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:38
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Ferrinus posted:Stephenls is a PR failure until such time as he convinces the devs to eliminate scaling XP costs and therefore the BP/XP chargen debacle. I wonder why anyone even keeps XP around for point buy systems. I know it's anecdotal, but my group has always handled advancement by simply handing out upgrades (ability/attribute dots, charms, etc.) instead of XP. It felt far better since you didn't have to micromanage XP distribution. It also helped the ST manage the exact power of our group. Though I already realized the answer in typing this post. Such a system would burden the ST more with managing advancement instead of letting players do as they want with their points. And it doesn't solve the disparity inherent in choosing optimal charms.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:43
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BryanChavez posted:If you're going to write a tabletop roleplaying game, you're going to have some rat feces in there. Having talked to some of the older Exalted devs back in the day about their tribulations with getting artists to follow even the most basic guidelines, or, "You should have seen the Savant & Sorcerer cover before we sent it back for revisions!", I'm inclined to wait and see.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:51
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Having talked to some of the older Exalted devs back in the day about their tribulations with getting artists to follow even the most basic guidelines, or, "You should have seen the Savant & Sorcerer cover before we sent it back for revisions!", I'm inclined to wait and see. And this isn't even in-book art. It's for the tie-in comic! (Zub does Skullkickers, I think; what do the women look like in that one? And how are they written? I admit I've never looked at Skullkickers.) (EDIT: Oh, it's on comixology. I guess I know what I'm reading on my iPad this evening at work, then.) Stephenls fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Nov 15, 2013 23:08
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Stephenls posted:Am I really doing so badly? Give it to me straight: if you were the A+ #1 Supreme Exalted Boss, would we still have an ability named 'Martial Arts'?
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Nov 15, 2013 23:22
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Attorney at Funk posted:Give it to me straight: if you were the A+ #1 Supreme Exalted Boss, would we still have an ability named 'Martial Arts'? Nah. (EDIT: C'mon, that was easy. Even if I thought Martial Arts was the correct title for the skill, I'd know that the PR-correct response in this forum would be to deny it. That said, I don't think it'll be confusing in practice.)
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Nov 15, 2013 23:23
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Stephenls posted:Nah. It's just so goofy! Like the very first thing I read about Exalted 3e, and by extension Exalted in general, was your post about "system as statement" and how the new edition needed to move away from that. And now, and now, we get "don't the words 'Martial Arts' belong on the Exalted character sheet?" Somehow it's the completely inconsequential things that are the most galling.
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Nov 15, 2013 23:28
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Stephenls posted:And this isn't even in-book art. It's for the tie-in comic! He's also doing the new Samurai Jack comics.
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Nov 15, 2013 23:29
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Attorney at Funk posted:It's just so goofy! Like the very first thing I read about Exalted 3e, and by extension Exalted in general, was your post about "system as statement" and how the new edition needed to move away from that. More seriously, the Martial Arts thing is ultimately an aesthetic issue. The distinction between Skills (twenty-five traits rated 1-5, and written by default on your character sheet), Techniques (Combat-ability-expanding Merits that are subject to all the usual miscellaneous Merit restrictions, i.e. they can have any dot rating and arbitrary purchase requirements, so some may be available to mortals while others may only be available to Essence-channelers, or whatever, on a Technique-by-Technique basis), and Charms (supernatural abilities) is fairly clear. Gamers are not going to have difficulty telling the difference between Martial Arts (the skill); Martial Arts Techniques; and Martial Arts Charms, because the difference between Skills, Merits, and Charms will necessarily be clear in their mind before they even encounter the concept of Martial Arts as a special case. I personally think clarity would be enhanced in a minor but worthwhile way by having a Brawl skill, Martial Arts Techniques, and Martial Arts Charms, rather than a Martial Arts Skill, Martial Arts Techniques, and Martial Arts Charms, which is what we're (probably) getting. I agree with John and Holden that having Martial Arts on the character sheet provides a better impression of what the game is about than Brawl, but value the minor clarity increase more than that impression. John and Holden value the impression over the minor clarity increase. I can't fault them for that decision because it really is a very minor clarity increase; this poo poo is not going to be as confusing as people worry. Stephenls fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Nov 15, 2013 23:37
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