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CommissarMega posted:Isn't this Caesar's actual plan? I seem to recall him saying something like this- he knows that the Legion won't have the steam to take down the NCR even with the Dam, so he hopes that the two civilizations would forcefully integrate somehow. Nah, Caesar literally believes his Legion will roll over the NCR, absorb all of California, and New Vegas will be his Rome where he can build a true empire, instead of just running around with a slave army. There's no stalemate in Ceasar's mind, once the Dam is taken he may pause to consolidate, but the push into California is going to continue hard. Given that the Legion is strongest when it's constantly expanding, he's probably not making the worst conclusion.
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Nov 16, 2013 05:47
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Yeah, but he doesn't think he's just going to march into the Hub as is. He wants to conquer the Mojave and Vegas to create a center for his empire which will eventually challenge the NCR, something Caesar knows he may not live to see. Caesar's all about the long game though. The creepiest moment of the game for me was when you find out that their NCR mole had been planted before the NCR even knew who the Legion was.
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Nov 16, 2013 06:07
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Yeah I think the Legion's plan is to take the Mojave, grow even more in strength, and then move on to the NCR. They're planning to leave it quite a while according to Lanius's utterly badass ending speech: "Perhaps one day I shall be granted the honour of conquering the land known as California." Ulysses had one weird opinion about the Legion: he said that its need to be constantly at war is so great that once it reaches the West coast it'll turn on itself. That seemed wrong to me, given that they've got the whole of Canada and South America, not to mention the rest of the US to conquer if they really want to. But I guess Ulysses's worldview is pretty limited in some ways V  V
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Nov 16, 2013 07:55
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2house2fly posted:Ulysses had one weird opinion about the Legion: he said that its need to be constantly at war is so great that once it reaches the West coast it'll turn on itself. That seemed wrong to me, given that they've got the whole of Canada and South America, not to mention the rest of the US to conquer if they really want to. But I guess Ulysses's worldview is pretty limited in some ways V Except that Ulysses is not alone in that opinion. The Speech options with Lanius at the end of the game basically lay out the same scenario: if the Legion invades the NCR, the East will rebel and the Legion will have a civil war on its hands. That is because the East is only being held in check by the military might of the Legion. If the Legion deploys its troops west, those territories will certainly rebel.
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Nov 16, 2013 08:04
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razorrozar posted:Have any of you guys ever tried to justify playing a good-karma Legion courier? I'm doing the Logan's Loophole-melee build, because it's so different from anything I've done, and I figure I'll go for the Legion ending for the same reason, but I imagine killing Fiends will leave me with good karma regardless because I'm not going to go around stealing everything in sight and butchering same. What reason can you come up with for a good Courier to align him/herself with the Legion? Play as a Great Khan.
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Nov 16, 2013 08:10
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Wolfsheim posted:The only way the Legion makes sense to me (I mean, outside of the meta-game of "playing all the same NCR missions where you stop the secret terrorist only now you're that terrorist" being cool as gently caress) is that the Legion does give you the largest amount of material rewards; not only are they the only the faction that pays you in straight-up gold, but they hand out stealth boys like candy. So you could simply be acting as a heartless mercenary who's there to sell his services to the highest bidder, cash out, then get the gently caress out of dodge before the rape camps roll into town. It would be more feasible if you're given the option to actually join the Legion as a high-ranking officer or Frumentarii or whatever at the end, but the game doesn't really present that option.
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Nov 16, 2013 08:16
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Really though you'll just be set on fire and thrown off the nearest dam the first time you fail to perform miracles
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Nov 16, 2013 08:26
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achillesforever6 posted:I like to imagine because of your deeds and your ability to get things done, Caesar adopts you as your heir and if your are good you become the Augustus to his Julius and are able to bring order to the West Coast in a New Roman Empire that gets rid of the rape camps and terrible slave conditions. Having the option to appoint yourself (or really, anyone sane and not too terrible and not Lanius) would make the Legion a lot better choice. As it stands, not only are they clearly the most immoral faction, they're also not that much more stable than the NCR.
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Nov 16, 2013 09:09
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The problematic faction in FO3 wasn't the Enclave (they just did what the Enclave has always done  ), it was the Brotherhood.
Smol fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 09:47
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RBA Starblade posted:NCR has one atrocity (that thing with the Great Khans or Boone, I don't remember)  Smol posted:The problematic faction in FO3 wasn't the Enclave (they just did what the Enclave has always done The whole EXTERMINATE! thing was just Eden's idea. Autumn had no part in that and after he overthrew his AI overlord his goal just seemed to be to provide clean water the wasteland, so that people will like the Enclave. Gee, how evil. The Enclave couldn't even use the purifier without the code only the player knew, so the facility was worthless to them for the moment. And their main base in the region was destroyed, so they wouldn't be getting any support. Seeing as the Enclave's position was pretty bad, I'm pretty sure we could have negotiated. But instead the BoS is all "Nope, we're going to kill them all. DEPLOY THE GIANT ROBOT!  " (Though to be fair, if I had a huge robot I'd use it the first chance I got as well).It got even worse in Broken Steel. There the Enclave is not doing anything besides sitting around in their clubhouses and being sad because their big mountain clubhouse got blown up. And those awful BoS jerks order the player to destroy their fancy clubhouses for no apparent reason. Heck, the Enclave even has an orbital missle platform they could have used to destroy the BoS whenver they wanted to, but instead only used defensively. I'd say it's pretty clear that the Enclave just wanted to be left alone and the BoS were the evil maniacs. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 13:07 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 10:26
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That is a very interesting distortion of the story in Fallout 3, to be sure.
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Nov 16, 2013 11:18
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Dan Didio posted:That is a very interesting distortion of the story in Fallout 3, to be sure. I agree, except for the interesting part.
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Nov 16, 2013 11:23
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caleramaen posted:I agree, except for the interesting part. Facetiousness is difficult to convey through text.
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Nov 16, 2013 11:25
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To be fair, I too tried to whitewash Enclave in my run, solely thanks to Malcolm McDowell's charisma.
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Nov 16, 2013 11:40
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Dan Didio posted:That is a very interesting distortion of the story in Fallout 3, to be sure. But I honestly don't recall why we had to fight Autumn over the purifier, or why we had to hunt the Enclave down in Broken Steel. So I maintain that Elder Lyons wanted to play with Liberty Prime and in Broken Steel was jealous of the Enclave's cool mobile base.
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Nov 16, 2013 13:35
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gggiiimmmppp posted:Really though you'll just be set on fire and thrown off the nearest dam the first time you fail to perform miracles Maybe Joshua should've learned to quicksave. 
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Nov 16, 2013 13:50
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achillesforever6 posted:I like to imagine because of your deeds and your ability to get things done, Caesar adopts you as your heir and if your are good you become the Augustus to his Julius and are able to bring order to the West Coast in a New Roman Empire that gets rid of the rape camps and terrible slave conditions. To be honest, are there really rape camps within the territories of Caesar's Legion? The belief that women are solely there to breed is present among a couple of the named Legionnaires. There's also commentary in the game manual that says all children born to Legion women (I'm assuming slave women) are taken and raised by Priestesses of Mars in big communal barracks. Furthermore, there's mention of independent towns under Legion watch, which happen to be pretty peaceful and can trade with each other without worry of raider attack. Furthermore, there's mention (By one of the Great Khans) that "if" she's lucky, she could become an officer's wife, implying that in the Legion there is some concept of family privacy perhaps, so maybe once a Legionnaire makes it past Recruit (slave) level, they gain more privacy rights? But their children get taken away to be raised by aforementioned Priestesses? So in Legion territory we have. Caesar's Legion (The army, full of slaves, strong males are made Legionnaire warriors, weak males and all females are made manual work slaves. Would these female slaves be the ones who breed future Legionnaires?). Always on the move absorbing other tribes. Towns under Legion control, but otherwise allowed to do what they want. So do the towns have to give up some sons and daughters as tribute to the Legion for its protection? Is the Legion self-sustaining enough with its slave women to increase its warrior population? And if that's the case, how is it that all the women we see in the Legion at the time are being used for manual labor. You would think Caeser wouldn't allow his "breeders" to be heavily worked if their role is so fundamental to the survival of the Legion.
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Nov 16, 2013 13:56
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A lot of the women are definitely being sexually abused, and at least are being systematically forced into a life where their only option is heterosexual sex and possibly marriage with another slave. It's mass rape. I will say that I don't think the Brotherhood and Enclave are really that bad in Fallout 3. As mentioned, there is some in-fighting in the Enclave, and as I said before, the Brotherhood is pretty flawed. The problem is that like with James, the game never sincerely considers questioning its heroes. The Brotherhood will kill all the Super Mutants and Ghouls if they take over. They're really just stopping one tier lower on the mutation totem pole than the Enclave. But nobody really says that. What's funny is that Caesar is in many ways the good guy of New Vegas. He's the guy who set out, like James, with an epic plan to make the world a better place. In the process he became a monster as opposed to the colossal gently caress up that is James. The good guys in New Vegas aren't really good guys. They're just not slaver rapists. They must stand against the Legion because the Legion is that scary of a villain, but they're not these idealistic heroes. Even the Followers are shown to be a bit flawed.
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Nov 16, 2013 15:49
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StashAugustine posted:Having the option to appoint yourself (or really, anyone sane and not too terrible and not Lanius) would make the Legion a lot better choice. As it stands, not only are they clearly the most immoral faction, they're also not that much more stable than the NCR. Basically, if the Legion actually came with more of Rome and less of the Legion, I could see someone (horrible) making a case for it, especially for someone actually from the Mojave.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:00
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What serious problems is the NCR facing? There was a lot of fistshaking and complaining going on amongst certain NPCs, but such bickering is a necessary part of any democratic process and not a sign of weakness.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:11
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Pope Guilty posted:Maybe Joshua should've learned to quicksave. He's basically one-upping The Courier. "Oh, you got shot in the head? Lemme tell you about being set on fire, kid."
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Nov 16, 2013 16:14
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steinrokkan posted:What serious problems is the NCR facing? There was a lot of fistshaking and complaining going on amongst certain NPCs, but such bickering is a necessary part of any democratic process and not a sign of weakness. The fact that a country of this size apparently really needs the Hoover Dam that badly to keep basic infrastructure going is pretty telling. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 16:20
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Timeless Appeal posted:Consider how much trouble the NCR is having in keeping this really small part of the Mojave. Now remember that the NCR is basically most of California and goes all the way up to Oregon. Now remember they're also invading Baja at the same time that they're barely keeping the Dam. The NCR's not going to fall apart just because they lose the Dam, although it's certainly not going to help. The Dam, in addition to the hydroelectric power, is a symbol. Losing it, more than breaking their infrastructure, shows their citizens that they might not be backing the strongest horse in this post-apocalyptic race. The biggest problem with the Legion is it's not sustainable. Every ending where Caesar dies has the Legion basically turning on itself and fragmenting within decades. It's a cult of personality, more than anything.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:28
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steinrokkan posted:What serious problems is the NCR facing? There was a lot of fistshaking and complaining going on amongst certain NPCs, but such bickering is a necessary part of any democratic process and not a sign of weakness. Anything bad about the NCR is pretty much worse under House. House's only appeal is that he's got a vision for humanity (that doesn't appear to center on things like feeding people) and he's so drat smart and long-lasting that he might actually be able to carry out long-term planning, which the NCR can't do. Then there's the Legion, which really only has: managed to kill so many raiders that they don't raid anymore" is its plus column. Compared to a long, long list of negatives. The NCR needs to have more obvious signs of possible implosion to justify picking either of the autocrat options.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:36
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Ravenfood posted:Anything bad about the NCR is pretty much worse under House. I mean, House is a flawed dude. In a "Go kill a bunch of kids for me; try not to step on the poor people my robots shoot just outside of town on the way out" kinda way. But House does not send invading armies to fall apart for lack of logistical support. House is not in the pocket of cattle barons. House does not care for any piece of land that does not contain someone actively planning his downfall (other planets aside).
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Nov 16, 2013 16:42
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Timeless Appeal posted:Consider how much trouble the NCR is having in keeping this really small part of the Mojave. Now remember that the NCR is basically most of California and goes all the way up to Oregon. Now remember they're also invading Baja at the same time that they're barely keeping the Dam. Real world history is full of superpowers failing to win seemingly minuscule conflicts because of internal strife - without ever becoming less powerful in any substantial sense. Ravenfood posted:Not enough to justify supporting the Legion, that's for sure. That's kind of the problem. On the other hand, there is the implication that there isn't anywhere near the level of raider-free lands that the Legion has. They need to keep expanding to provide for basic infrastructure, they charge what are apparently exorbitant taxes to do very little for the population except enrich some cattle barons, and some more generic stuff. That's kind of the problem, there's no reason not to support the NCR, since while they're huge, bloated, and horribly inefficient, they're not actively utterly repugnant all the time. And as another point in their favor, they're a large, relatively stable society that dragged itself up from nothing, are nominally democratic, and aren't about to implode anytime soon. You have to take others' word for that. Speaking to a Tea Partier about the USA of taday, you would also get an impression that the secretly Communist gubirment is going to fall apart any day now. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 16:43
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razorrozar posted:The NCR's not going to fall apart just because they lose the Dam, although it's certainly not going to help. The Dam, in addition to the hydroelectric power, is a symbol. Losing it, more than breaking their infrastructure, shows their citizens that they might not be backing the strongest horse in this post-apocalyptic race. There is also the issue that while Tandi is better than Caesar in every way, she was in charge of the NCR for a very long time. It seems like a lot of the NCR's success was balanced on Tandi being a great leader, and she was great, but she should have probably stepped down a lot earlier.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:45
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steinrokkan posted:You have to take others' word for that. Speaking to a Tea Partier about the USA of taday, you would also get an impression that the secretly Communist gubirment is going to fall apart any day now. See, this is why we need a game set in Arizona. We need to see exactly how the Legion really operates before we can pass judgement on whether they're better or worse than the NCR, in terms of government at least. Timeless Appeal posted:There is also the issue that while Tandi is better than Caesar in every way, she was in charge of the NCR for a very long time. It seems like a lot of the NCR's success was balanced on Tandi being a great leader, and she was great, but she should have probably stepped down a lot earlier. Good point. It could be argued that the early NCR was just as much a cult of personality as the Legion, and the only reason the NCR is better is because their personality was a drat sight more pleasant than Caesar.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:55
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The Crotch posted:No? quote:You have to take others' word for that. Speaking to a Tea Partier about the USA of taday, you would also get an impression that the secretly Communist gubirment is going to fall apart any day now
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Nov 16, 2013 16:57
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It's sort of a huge bit of Caesar's dialog and belief that the upcoming war will change the Legion. He knows the Legion can't survive and continue in it's current form, but it's not supposed to. The Legion is a means, not an end. He hopes for the Legion and NCR to merge into one another, and the resulting society to have the best attributes of both. A society that's capable of sitting around and being an empire, but without being run by a bunch of greedy dicks who just want a bigger pile of money to sleep on. Caesar's eyes are entirely on the Big Picture, and he only pays attention to the short picture as it applies to the Big Picture. Atrocities are just more means of accomplishing his goals, with the added benefit of demoralizing his enemies. It worked when dealing with the backwoods tribals, and it works with the NCR. If you want to play a 'good karma' Courier (also karma is dumb), then your basic logic is to buy into Caesar's poo poo, and be entirely about the big picture.
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Nov 16, 2013 17:46
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Unfortunately as far as I can recall the game doesn't really offer you a "why don't we try not genociding and enslaving everyone first?" approach when dealing with the Legion-aligned ending.
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Nov 16, 2013 17:50
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If your player character is female you have no justification for siding with the Legion, unless you want to end up as a rape slave yourself. My lady courier sided with House, but she tended to use pew-pew ray guns, was educated, and had high science.
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Nov 16, 2013 17:59
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razorrozar posted:What reason can you come up with for a good Courier to align him/herself with the Legion? Play as an avaricious mercenary with only a shallow understanding of the political/strategic landscape. edit: Oops, my mistake, sorry. Veeta fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 18:08
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The Legion would have worked just fine as the darker loss-of-freedom-for-security faction without the oh-so-edgy rape camps, or even if their idea of slavery was less New Vegas may have better writing than Fallout 3 in a lot of places, but the core of faction conflict is not one of them. (For that matter, even an utterly corrupt democracy with the sort of resources NCR possesses will not be quite so passive about killing people in a conflict it is committed to. Incompetent in any number of areas, including protecting and gathering the support of local civilian population - yeah. Never reacting to provocations and just sitting there while the enemy tears it apart - no. That's not good writing, that's a political cartoon the Legion is publishing)
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Nov 16, 2013 18:34
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Xander77 posted:New Vegas may have better writing than Fallout 3 in a lot of places, but the core of faction conflict is not one of them. Who cares if you can't see your courier siding with them. You never have to. The credit that must be given is that Obsidian provided tools for you to create that narrative if you wanted to. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Nov 17, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 19:48
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Boogle posted:If your player character is female you have no justification for siding with the Legion, unless you want to end up as a rape slave yourself.
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Nov 16, 2013 21:05
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Overconfident sociopath that believes their murderous tendencies out-value a lifetime of servitude, doin it for the paychecks. Truth be told it takes everything in me to not open fire in nipton no matter what I'm playing as, despite not really being able to win that fight by that point. The legion is way more moustache twirling than any of the enclave iterations. Caesar can be extremely well written (and he is, as are much of the named legion) their actions are still so viciously loving insane there is no play-through where I don't torch the legion as soon as I can.
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Nov 16, 2013 21:42
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They asked how a Good courier would side with the Legion. A lot of these characters you are proposing don't seem to fit the bill.
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Nov 16, 2013 22:03
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I've never thought of Caesar's or the Legion's activities as "edgy". For their own purposes, they engage in a variety of horrible practices that others have engaged in throughout history. I'm sure individual players might want to engage in ranking atrocities -- something I've never really found was productive in discussions about history -- but Caesar and his crew in the same league as other brutal warlords. He was inspired (on our end) by people like Charles Taylor, Timur, and Simon de Montfort (the crusader). "Caesar" is a persona he adopted, but he effectively operates as a warlord with no regard for individual human lives outside of how he can use them.
rope kid fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 22:30
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hemophilia posted:Overconfident sociopath that believes their murderous tendencies out-value a lifetime of servitude, doin it for the paychecks. You CAN win that fight, actually, I've done it many times. Your best option is to be level 4, because then Inculta and his goons will be level 5 and if you're competent you can crush them. My usual non-Legion characters wear his helmet for the next several hours of game.
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Nov 16, 2013 22:39
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