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I never looked at it from that angle. Though Invasions are a mechanic I am probably not touching on this LP, unless I somehow roll an Alexander or Napoleon to justify it under the roleplaying, but it is unlikely.Rodyle posted:CK2 threads are great because it draws all the history goons out of hiding. Wish I was on GBS 2.1 so I could empty-quote this.
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Nov 15, 2013 21:39
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Reveilled posted:It's helpful to remember when marvelling at the complexity of the venetian election system that our elections today and the venetian elections then were not intended to produce similar outcomes. To understand that you need to know how pre-enlightenment peoples viewed the concepts of meritocracy and chance differently from us. I wonder if any of them hit on the idea that a key issue with elections is that they don't select the best people at running the country, they select the best people at winning elections. In that respect, making the decision be between people who are all rich merchants, and therefore quite good at running something at least, makes a bit of sense. There's some remarkably sound reasoning in all of that, pre-enlightenment folks were pretty enlightened it seems.
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Nov 15, 2013 22:51
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The Most Serene Republic of Venice is nothing compared to Lord Novgorod the Great (which CK2 understandably doesn't bother to model at all and leaves as a simple principality; not sure about CK2+). At least in Venice, you have the Doge. In Novgorod, you have: a Prince of Rurikovich stock, who is actually more of a glorified mercenary commander that the City can hire or send away at will and who only has limited military authority and symbolic authority over other matters; the Posadnik, an elected official who presides over the Veche (city assembly; no one is quite sure how it was selected, though it was probably similar to equivalent assemblies in European city-states) and practically performs many of the duties that are supposedly in the purview of the Prince (also, later on, there were several Posadniks at once); and the Archbishop, who is chosen by lot from among the most popular local clergy (as Reveilled said, it is the surest way of divining the will of God and the hardest to corrupt means of choosing a legitimate leader; I remember something about it being considered the most democratic means of election in Ancient Greece, for instance) and who may or may not be the real head of state, the biggest landowner and the voice of the people that would otherwise not be represented at all. And any number of other elected city officials. And the wealthy oligarchic families, that may or may not have had their own, separate council presided over by the archbishop. And the guilds. So it was at a once a feudal principality, a merchant republic and a democratic theocracy, and it survived and evolved for centuries, being perhaps the most successful part of Kievan Rus in terms of never having been conquered by any foreign enemy in our history. As I said, no wonder CK2 just doesn't bother with it.  I'm really glad this LP is on the move again. It's making me want to play a Republic myself. OwlFancier posted:I wonder if any of them hit on the idea that a key issue with elections is that they don't select the best people at running the country, they select the best people at winning elections. It comes up often in post-Enlightenment anti-democratic thought; before the 19th century or so, the examples of democratic misrule simply wouldn't have been there for everyone to behold, outside of a few very specific places which only had "democracy" with some very serious caveats. As opposed to the examples of monarchic and aristocratic misrule - which may have had something to do with the political aspects of the Enlightenment itself, now that I think of it. advokat fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Nov 15, 2013 22:57
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 The palace was finally quiet, relatively, as the von Goons returned to their homes, trade posts and rooms. Far off in the distance some of the younger ones, led by an over-enthusiastic "Uncle Wictor" marched through Hamburg, announcing to the world that the "von Goons were gonna have the tallest Patrician IN THE WORLD". They were headed to the prison tower where the Wittenborg patriarch idled his days to give him the news.   The Pomeranian territories were granted to Amadeus, as well as his right of succession. But the other candidates were given places in the Republic, nonetheless.  Gotthard walked out when the decision was announced, chanting "SHUT THE gently caress UP, DAD!" every time Viktor tried to address him. He really didn't beat up that kid enough, but the young man would be surprised to find himself as leader of the Pomeranian army. Mathias seemed satisfied with the choice of Amadeus, though he carried under his beard the peculiar smile of a man who knew he would be next in line of succession if an accident happened. Poopo was just content that it was all over. Viktor was tired, unlike his older brother he found no joy in legalese. At least he had his dearest daughter to comfort him.  Whatthechrist.  His government began in the traditional way, a new von Bardewick wife for himself, to express his deep loyalty to the Prince. As the wedding ceremony occurred, he sent the news to Irmgard's uncle.  As leaders of the League, the von Bardewicks would be forced by the constitution to ignore Viktor's aggression, and so Baldewin found himself alone. Victor had never enforced the borders drawn for the Pomeranian Republic for fear of alienating the most powerful family in the Hansa, but Viktor had no such qualms.  He was surprised, however, to find that there were some amongst the von Bardewicks who supported his effort. Such as his own brother-in-law.  It was not a war, but a joke; and Stettin was also granted to Amadeus in the hopes that Pomerania would make a statesman of him.  Rather than infuriated, Prince Martin was actually impressed by Viktor's military acumen, and so granted him command of the armies of the League.  Cyprus-Jerusalem had triumphed over another of its foes, thanks to the aid of the crusade. The Ayyubid Sultanate founded by Saladin was extinct.  Viktor indulged Gebhard's request. Anything to lenghten the stay of the Wittenborg's leadership in his prison.  Mathias had to be reminded of his proper place.  News from the west crushed Gotthard's dreams of his own kingdom, as the de Barcelonas had united the Aragonese and French crowns. "To better defend Christendom against the Aztecs", so they said. A position the Pope deeply disagreed with, if Alfons' excommunication meant anything.  Finally, at the end of the year, it was Viktor's time to guide the Hanseatic League. Old age had caught up to Martin, and he simply did not wake up one night.  Viktor made a mental note to avoid dying, as Amadeus was still far too young to compete for leadership of the League.  It was time to turn to revenge, however. He remembered well both trade posts lost to the Danes, as well as the men massacred by them. It was too late to take revenge on Cnud, but his son would do.  While preparing his campaign he found time to mock and belittle his favourite prisoner.  One beautiful summer morning he realized that it was really godfucking creepy to be having an affair with his daughter, and so broke it up.   The Second Rule of Business Let nobles and fools die for glory, faith and honour. We fight for profit and revenge. He wished he could tell that to Victor, but his brother's corpse had been lost at sea on his way back home.  It was foolish of the de Barcelonas to presume the personal union with France was enough to resist against the Aztecs. Rather, they were invaded, and in the wake of the campaign their kingdom fell apart. It was time for a concerned father to arrange for Gotthard a place in history, but first, to make sure he would not forget his republican origins.   With the plans set in motion, he turned his attention north: he still owed the Danes a second round of von Goon vengeance, this time for Victor's heartbreak. The island of Rügen would be made part of the Pomeranian republic, for the benefit of the League, of course.  The League was slight outnumbered, but Viktor was confident in his ability to outmaneuver the Danish armies, as well as his ability to contract mercenaries if need be.  He intended to intercept the rallying forces before they gathered at Skäne.   His campaign did not go unnoticed, and as he sailed to Copenhagen a ship from Norway greeted him with a strategic proposal. He found a friend in their common enemy.  Viktor's plan was a great success, and the disorganized Danes fled before the Hanseatic forces. Soon the Norwegians would also be here, and there would be no succour for Denmark. "Who is an old man? Who is an old man? Not me!" Viktor of Pomerania shouted at the prisoners of his great battle, still bathed in the blood of their comrades. It was all a bit too much excitement for him. 
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Nov 16, 2013 04:47
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advokat posted:Novgorod Chat I have often stared longingly at Novgorod (who in certain start dates is a merchant republic that cannot be played), glad to know there's a historical reason as to why it is impossible.
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Nov 16, 2013 04:49
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Uh, so where the hell did Konrad Warendorp come from? He kind of seems out of place, although I do recall an event happening when I played Hamburg where one of my sons just randomly came back with an African bride (and that actually happened with multiple sons), so that might explain what this African guy is doing leading the Hanse.
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Nov 16, 2013 05:04
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TheMcD posted:Uh, so where the hell did Konrad Warendorp come from? He kind of seems out of place, although I do recall an event happening when I played Hamburg where one of my sons just randomly came back with an African bride (and that actually happened with multiple sons), so that might explain what this African guy is doing leading the Hanse. I believe that's exactly it, I've had that event as well on other playthroughs. Edit: Looking at his parents... Yep, so it is.
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Nov 16, 2013 05:17
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So who's the next victim in line after Denmark inevitably falls under Hansa dominion? We should find another bunch of merchants and beat them up and take their stuff, like Venice or something.
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Nov 16, 2013 05:24
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So one thing I never quite got a hang of when trying a republic playthrough is what determines which titles stay in the family, and which go to the Doge/Prince Mayor. e.g. I conquered some cities, awarded them to my heir, and then he lost them later. Perhaps someone here feels like explaining?
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Nov 16, 2013 05:33
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TheMcD posted:Uh, so where the hell did Konrad Warendorp come from? He kind of seems out of place, although I do recall an event happening when I played Hamburg where one of my sons just randomly came back with an African bride (and that actually happened with multiple sons), so that might explain what this African guy is doing leading the Hanse. This seems to be a common occurrence in the game, really. I've seen a black Holy Roman Emperor once, and black Italian Doges and Patricians far more often than that.
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Nov 16, 2013 06:28
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The game can't "average out" cultural portraits, so kids always look 100% like either culture randomly. Thus you sometimes get entire dynasties switching portraits from a single marriage.
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Nov 16, 2013 08:33
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advokat posted:This seems to be a common occurrence in the game, really. I've seen a black Holy Roman Emperor once, and black Italian Doges and Patricians far more often than that. There are rather common events if you do not marry your male relatives off to somebody. There is an event where your relative will marry and older wife, a young bride from a minor merchant family, a prostitute, a common lady with a positive inheritable trait, or an African woman. The older woman and the young woman from a minor merchant family are the most common in my experience, while the African woman and the woman with inheritable traits are rare. Edit: To clarify, these are all different events and not one where you get to choose. These events are "relative x has married [old/minor merchant/prostitute/commoner/African], what do you do?" Allow it or Imprison him. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 08:41
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It's been long ago, and I might easily be wrong, but I think the Emperor was a result of a proper dynastic marriage with a Miaphysite dynasty in Abyssinia. The doges, though, were probably what you said.
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Nov 16, 2013 09:12
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A CK3 with like, a Sims style character gen / genetics simulator would be the greatest thing 
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Nov 16, 2013 09:49
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Sindai posted:The game can't "average out" cultural portraits, so kids always look 100% like either culture randomly. Thus you sometimes get entire dynasties switching portraits from a single marriage. That's not entirely true. Black characters who have children with white (Mediterranean, Slavic, Nordic, default European) characters can have kids come out brown (Arab). I don't know what their interaction with Mongol or Aztec characters is though.
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Nov 16, 2013 10:07
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Have there ever been any cases of something like this happening historically? Black africans marrying into medieval families and having their obviously black descendants end up rising to positions of power? Its a thing in Shakespeare, see Othello, where the obviously not-White (described as a Moor) character is incredibly high up in the chain of command and married to a white woman, but I'm curious whether anything like that actually ended up happening historically.
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Nov 16, 2013 10:21
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MinistryofLard posted:Have there ever been any cases of something like this happening historically? Black africans marrying into medieval families and having their obviously black descendants end up rising to positions of power? Othello is thought to be inspired by Leo Africanus, a diplomat and explorer in the 16th century. There's also the Dutch tale of Sir Morien the black son of Sir Aglovale (a knight of the round table) and a Moorish noble woman. So maybe it wasn't entirely unheard of historically? WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 11:03
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There was a mixed race Duke of Florence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_de%27_Medici,_Duke_of_Florence Obviously well past this time period, but it did happen.
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Nov 16, 2013 11:37
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OddObserver posted:So one thing I never quite got a hang of when trying a republic playthrough is what determines which I am not 100% positive here, but I believe all the highest level titles are inherited by the Doge/Prince Mayor. So if you have multiple Duke-Level Republics and there's no Serene Republic (Venice/Hansa/Formed Kingdom), they all go to the Doge, and if you have multiple kingdoms, so they do. The capital of the republic is also inherited by the Prince, as is the duchy it belongs to. So, in the case of the Hansa: Lübeck (capital), Holstein (Republic where the capital is) and the Hansa (highest title) all go to the next Prince, while the remaining possessions go to the designated heir. PurpleXVI posted:So who's the next victim in line after Denmark inevitably falls under Hansa dominion? We should find another bunch of merchants and beat them up and take their stuff, like Venice or something. The trade map mode shows our likely venues for expansion, so we'll most likely be pestering everyone in the Baltic given enough time. Controlling Danzig and the Sound Toll in Scandinavia will probably take priority, as they are important centers of trade in EU4, and the later gives us a pretty great modifier for as long as we control it. Given the way trade mechanics work in CK2 (trade posts are more expensive with range) and our relative isolation from the Italian Republics, we'll probably only fight them in the next game. Only situation where we may face another Merchant Republic is if Novgorod gains a coastline. 
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Nov 16, 2013 15:08
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When did Achaea become a merchant republic?
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Nov 16, 2013 15:29
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Flython posted:When did Achaea become a merchant republic? If I had to wager, I'd say a peasant revolt turned them into a republic, and them being coastal automatically turned them into a merchant republic, since that's apparently the way CK2 does things (inland republics completely unplayable, coastal republics automatically merchants). Not sure though, since peasant revolts so rarely succeed, and I'm not 100% sure if my view on how republics generally work is correct.
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Nov 16, 2013 15:32
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Flython posted:When did Achaea become a merchant republic? Woah, nice catch, I didn't actually notice that. They are actually part of Byzantium, so my guess is that Venice conquered the area back when the ERE was broken up, the local republic revolted from them and then accepted to join the Empire diplomatically, sometime between 1270-1300 (when that screenshot was taken). I guess if they survive until 1444 I'll make them a Byzantine vassal in EU4, rather than a direct territory. I will be using the Warring States thingie where you need an event to integrate vassals, so they should last for a while if they make it. ^^ Edit: Or peasant revolt, that's possible too. ZearothK fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 15:37
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MinistryofLard posted:Have there ever been any cases of something like this happening historically? Black africans marrying into medieval families and having their obviously black descendants end up rising to positions of power? If you don't mind fast-forwarding all the way to the 18th century, check out this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal Black guy from Africa that ends up one of the most powerful people in Peter the Great's court.
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Nov 16, 2013 20:11
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Patter Song posted:If you don't mind fast-forwarding all the way to the 18th century, check out this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Petrovich_Gannibal Black guy from Africa that ends up one of the most powerful people in Peter the Great's court. And his descendants (including Alexander Pushkin, who was often mocked in his youth for his African visage and curly face) later becoming some of the most prominent figures in Russian literary history. Not political power, but in the long run that's even more impressive. So I guess stuff like that happening in CK2 is... odd, but not unbelievable. It certainly tends to stand out. I kinda like it myself.
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Nov 16, 2013 20:35
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In France, there was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas-Alexandre_Dumas who had a pretty impressive history as a general but it was also a while latter. He would also go in inns while still riding his horses, grab a rafter holding up the ceiling and lift up himself and his horse. That last bit may be part legend. Both his son and grandson were pretty great writers, both Alexandre Dumas.
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Nov 16, 2013 23:37
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If you go back earlier, the Roman Emperor Septimius Severus was born in Africa and was (supposedly) dark-skinned. I think it was more difficulties involved in travel during the Dark Ages (and there being no events to teleport African women to northern Europe), because you see examples before and after.
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Nov 16, 2013 23:51
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Byzantine posted:If you go back earlier, the Roman Emperor Septimius Severus was born in Africa and was (supposedly) dark-skinned. I thought he was a colonist, though. A Roman who happened to be born in Africa.
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Nov 17, 2013 01:57
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His mother was an Italian, and his father was a Romanized Berber.
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Nov 17, 2013 03:36
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ZearothK posted:The Second Rule of Business It feels like we're becoming more and more like the Ferengi every day. I love it!
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Nov 17, 2013 06:56
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Oh yes, I definitely love the Rules. Hopefully we'll end up with a full book of them by CK2's end. Also I kinda hope this does prove to be 2.0/SoA-compatible, at least eventually, when CK2+ catches up. I'd like to see all those new events.
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Nov 17, 2013 09:56
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Luhood posted:It feels like we're becoming more and more like the Ferengi every day. I love it! The final confrontation with the House of Wittenborg shall be in GalCiv, where they will have turned into actual Borgs.
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Nov 17, 2013 14:13
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  Amadeus was somewhat older, fuller and slightly more competent, but still lacking in social graces, and a need to prove himself.  It was Amalie, his Lüneburg wife, who was the true mastermind of the pair. Ambitious and kind-hearted, she resented that her gender kept her from the greatness she deserved, and so she ruled through Amadeus.  Not that she was the only one to influence the Grand Mayor. He knew the will of his family, and designated Mathias as his second. His brother merely stroked his beard, and smiled upon receiving control of the Pomeranian lands.  Konrad continued Viktor's campaign with the welcome aid of the Norwegians, this time for his own sake rather than the von Goons.  Rügen was soon his, and the first possession of the Warendorps beyond their palace and trade posts.   He knew it was a von Goon scheme that allowed this to happen, and made sure to give the family its dues, of a sort.   Gotthard found himself a wife from the lesser nobility of Mali, he was not the only one to do so in this period, and while many would point to Konrad's popularity as the source of this trend, it was a side effect of the great wealth flowing in the Transatlantic Trade between Aztlan and Africa, and a desire of local nobles to be part of it.   Amadeus tried to base his demeanor on his father, the Great, but most people found his intellectualism to be boorish and pretentious.  Konrad did not live long, and he was succeeded in '22 by the Wittenborg patriarch, who would rule from the von Goon's prison tower.  Amalie suggested it would be better to increase her husband's escort, given the power the Wittenborgs now had, and maybe to negotiate for the Prince's release.  But they did not have enough money to satisfy Amadeus' greed. No matter, he had other venues for profit, such as completing his uncle's goal.  Besides, he enjoyed a good fight, specially an unfair one.   As it turned out, Gebhard lasted only a few months. Being definitely not poisoned by Amalie. The new von Bardewick ruler was the same Simon who helped Viktor of Pomerania against his uncle in the last decade, so a good relationship was expected between the families.  These people underestimated Amadeus' greed and Amalie's ambitions.  A shy, vengenceful and arbitrary man with little diplomatic tact, and a dishonorable reputation, Simon II was not the most popular ruler.  Soon all of the Hansa was discussing ways to kill Simon. Men and women would drink and fill the night with increasingly elaborate plans for the murder of their prince. Taverns grew quiet at the arrival of any von Bardewicks, who felt like they were being excluded from a joke.   It didn't take long. At the end the most straightforward approach was taken, and no secret was kept, as the bowmen bragged of their exploit and of Amadeus' gold.  It was 1235, and once again the von Goons had control of the Hansa.    At a terrible price, the enmity of the second most powerful family of the League, now led by one of the greatest, and youngest, leaders ever seen in the Baltic.  They tried their best to appease the man, marrying him to their eldest daughter, but there was no way to make him get over the whole "You murdered my father" thing.  Most of the families had done the same thing as the von Goons, appointing younger successors to lead their houses, making of Mathias the eldest contender for succession.  Their second daughter went to Bohemia. With few friends within the Republic, they were at least glad the family held their reputation outside.  In '26, the kingdom of Jerusalem was vanquished, and the so-called king of Cyprus was left to rule a patch of desert in exile. Their grand experiment was over.  Growing paranoid with time, Amalie urged her husband to take some lessons in his free time.  Denmark was too strong an opponent to the divided Hansa, but the fragmentation of Lithuania gave ample opportunity for the League to "civilize" some of the Baltic coast, and so Amalie directed her husband to establish a new republic in those backward feudal lands.  Bohemia was eager to join, as a previous marriage had made the Duke of Lithuania a claimant to their throne, but the numbers of the Hansa were still questionable. So once again the Company of the Rose was hired to aid the von Goons in their ambition, this time for a real battle, rather than a mock one.   Despite his victory Amadeus found real warfare to be a distressing experience. He needed a stiff drink.  Wait... I know that smell...   Mathias was entertaining Martin in the von Goon Palace when they received the news. The pair shared a knowing smile and some off-handed jokes as Amalie retired to her quarters to cry, swearing death upon a thousand Lithuanians. Mathias then invited Martin to the main office and showed him Victor's board, he asked his friend what wisdom one could learn from Amadeus' life. The Third Rule of Business Do not anger those you can neither buy nor destroy.
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Nov 17, 2013 17:49
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I suggest putting the rules of business in the OP.
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Nov 17, 2013 18:34
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I wanted Mathias from the start, it is nice to see the game agreeing with me.
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Nov 17, 2013 19:40
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my dad posted:I suggest putting the rules of business in the OP. Yeah we need to commit.
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Nov 17, 2013 20:09
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It's a pity you can't investigate those things after the fact, though it is pretty obvious who dun it in this case.
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Nov 17, 2013 21:27
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my dad posted:I suggest putting the rules of business in the OP. "Rule number 3: never trust nobody. Your mom would set that rear end up, properly gassed up, hoodied and masked up, for that fast buck, she'll be laying in the bushes ready to light that rear end up." - Christopher George Latore Wallace Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Nov 17, 2013 |
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Nov 17, 2013 23:26
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Three-Phase posted:"Rule number 3: never trust nobody. Your mom would light that rear end up, properly gassed up, hoodied and masked up, for that fast buck, she'll be laying in the bushes ready to light that rear end up." - Christopher George Latore Wallace Are the Ogoona rules of courting going to be verses from Ying-Yang Twins' songs, then? I hope there will eventually be enough 'rules of business' based on Von Goon fuckups for them become this world's "Rules of Acqusition" equivalent when it becomes a capitalist my dad fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Nov 17, 2013 |
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Nov 17, 2013 23:36
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advokat posted:It's a pity you can't investigate those things after the fact, though it is pretty obvious who dun it in this case. Aye. I felt confident enough in writing Mathias and Martin as the masterminds because Mathias was an ambitious heir and Martin really hated Amadeus, and is the most powerful non von Goon. Besides, Amadeus lack of any diplomatic skill and the Dishonorable Trait meant he was really unpopular, so it isn't very unlikely that everyone other than Amalie planned the assassination. Oh, and there they go, the rules are now being collected in the OP.
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Nov 18, 2013 00:10
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That smell is my favourite assassination possibility.
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Nov 18, 2013 01:10
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