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veekie posted:Incidentally, what would you consider the most interesting mistakes on the battlefield in military history? It's hardly big scale, but I've always been a fan of the German submarine U-1206 sinking of the coast of Scotland due to a toilet malfunction. Long story short: the sub was equipped with a new, high-tech deep water toilet. This toilet was so advanced and complicated it required a technician to flush it. Someone on board mucked up the flushing procedure which led to large amounts of water rushing into the sub which was at 200 feet beneath the surface. Now the genius thing was that the batteries were located directly beneath the toilet, so water seeped in and due to a chemical reaction chlorine gas started filling the hull. The captain saw no other option than to surface the sub and was subsequently spotted by British naval defenses. In the end the sub had to be scuttled with the loss of one hand.
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Nov 18, 2013 14:45
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Farecoal posted:How effective were the various European resistance movements during World War 2, particularly the French? And were there similar resistance groups in areas under Japanese occupation? Anti-Japanese movements were very active, and very numerous, but not equally distributed throughout the Empire. Notorious examples would include Viet Minh and Korean partisans, both of which started their campaigns before the official WWII timeline, and rose to become leaders of their respective countries. In Burma, Malaya and the Philippines, resistance was often led by Chinese expatriates, Communists, and by guerrilla forces trained by the previous colonial masters. Various freedom-fighter armies also emerged in China, where modern politically charged "banditry" had a long and illustrious history. However, particularly in New Guinea and throughout the Dutch East Indies, the natives often chose to collaborate with the new regime, which - while brutal - wasn't as unpopular as the Dutch administration, and Indonesian revolutionary elites, including Sukarno, found the new climate more conductive to their political aims. Likewise in Burma there's a plenty of reports of Burmese troops surrendering to the Japanese, or even joining their assaults (some particularly notable ones come from the battle of Moulmein, but records of these early events are generally too chaotic for me to tell how significant this switching of allegiance was), and anti-British elites were quite happy to accept Japanese invitation to participate in a new government. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 15:42
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Rabhadh posted:The British artillery could've been a wee bit more accurate when firing on a certain motorcycle courier. My Soviet era artillery textbook specifically states that firing on a single motorcyclist is a waste of ammunition.
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Nov 18, 2013 16:07
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Farecoal posted:How effective were the various European resistance movements during World War 2, particularly the French? And were there similar resistance groups in areas under Japanese occupation? As has been noted previously, resistance groups fared poorly when they tried to go toe to toe with the occupier. For a French example see the Battle of the Vercors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_du_Vercors You have to keep in mind, especially early on the groups were very small and poorly equipped. None of the members had any experience organizing clandestine groups. But, they did do a pretty good job of conducting sabotage, distributing propaganda, and collecting intelligence as time went on. They were also good at tying down troops so they couldn't be used elsewhere and creating a sense of fear among occupation troops through ambushes and assassinations. On the other hand, resistance groups were frequently infiltrated by informers and many members arrested, deported, jailed, or executed. For instance, La Nuit Finira by Henri Frenay and Noah's Ark by Marie-Madeliene Fourcade both report how the authors' respective networks were destroyed several times over. Even after the war turned against the Germans, a very small percentage of any nation's population actively resisted. Most people just didn't get involved. Although, particularly in France with the Gaullist myth, it was often remembered that everyone had secretly resisted. My master's thesis is actually about the memory of the resistance in France so if you have any specific questions I'll try to answer them. steinrokkan posted:Anti-Japanese movements very very active, and very numerous, but not equally distributed throughout the Empire. Notorious examples would include Viet Minh and Korean partisans, both of which started their campaigns before the official WWII timeline, and rose to become leaders of their respective countries. In Burma, Malaya and the Philippines, resistance was often led by Chinese expatriates, Communists, and by guerrilla forces trained by the previous colonial masters. Various freedom-fighter armies also emerged in China, where modern politically charged "banditry" had a long and illustrious history. However, particularly in New Guinea and throughout the Dutch East Indies, the natives often chose to collaborate with the new regime, which - while brutal - wasn't as unpopular as the Dutch administration, and Indonesian revolutionary elites, including Sukarno, found the new climate more conductive to their political aims. Likewise in Burma there's a plenty of reports of Burmese troops surrendering to the Japanese, or even joining their assaults (some particularly notable ones come from the battle of Moulmein, but records of these early events are generally too chaotic for me to tell how significant this switching of allegiance was), and anti-British elites were quite happy to accept Japanese invitation to participate in a new government. I know precious little about Pacific resistance groups, any good books on the subject?
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Nov 18, 2013 16:31
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veekie posted:Incidentally, what would you consider the most interesting mistakes on the battlefield in military history? The Battle of Leyte Gulf was always the  battle in my mind. From the USS Heermann scaring off a Japanese task force, to Halsey's bungling, the Yamato just steaming around doing nothing of consequence. Both sides were amateur as gently caress* and despite all odds it ended up being the largest naval battle in history. Either side could have had an overwhelming victory at times and completely hosed every opportunity up. *I'm not being totally serious here.
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Nov 18, 2013 16:41
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VikingSkull posted:The Battle of Leyte Gulf was always the Kurita at least was hosed by several factors, including
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Nov 18, 2013 16:48
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Yeah, there's some mitigating factors on both sides when you start reading a detailed history of the battle, but it's one of those things where you first read about it and can't believe that history progressed down that path. The whole battle was basically a series of miscalculations being overcome by guys with huge balls.
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Nov 18, 2013 16:59
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Rabhadh posted:The British artillery could've been a wee bit more accurate when firing on a certain motorcycle courier. To be fair, they shot at him. But the shells burst too early or late due to the design.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:16
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VikingSkull posted:Yeah, there's some mitigating factors on both sides when you start reading a detailed history of the battle, but it's one of those things where you first read about it and can't believe that history progressed down that path. Wars are generally long stretches of armies loving up before one side wins. That side is often, but not always, the side with less fuckups.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:27
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ArchangeI posted:Wars are generally long stretches of armies loving up before one side wins. That side is often, but not always, the side with less fuckups. Entirely true, and Leyte boils that down to a few days for everyone to see. It was such a clusterfuck that it took years for the American public to learn what had happened.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:33
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Hovermoose posted:Long story short: the sub was equipped with a new, high-tech deep water toilet ... RIP brave sailor who drowned in poo poo, hero of the Kriegsmarine
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Nov 18, 2013 18:07
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wdarkk posted:Kurita at least was hosed by several factors, including For anyone wondering about these two, Kurita's first flagship was sunk under him on the way to the the Philippines by American submarines. He transferred his flag from the sunk cruiser to Yamato and then stayed awake for the rest of the battle due to being shaken the gently caress up from that and near constant air attacks. Also not having a recognition book for CVEs is the least of his problems there as none of his sub-commanders can tell the difference between a DE and a heavy cruiser (about 300 feet and 13000 tons for you at home). Also who's this motorcycle courier y'all are referencing, is it Hitler? I knew he was a courier but I've never heard of him having a motorcycle before.
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Nov 18, 2013 18:26
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That toilet has to be one of the most embarrassing ways possible for a submarine to go down.VikingSkull posted:The Battle of Leyte Gulf was always the Could someone elaborate on the screwups involved for those of us unfamiliar with the battle?
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Nov 18, 2013 18:46
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Did civilian resistance (as in not organized militia but ordinary people doing acts of defiance in their daily lives) really have any effect during WWII? I know the Germans eventually banned standing in busses in Norway if there was an empty seat next to a German soldiers due to the practice of Norwegians not sitting next to them if possible but this seems more like an annoyance they got rid of rather than a crushing moral victory.
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Nov 18, 2013 18:50
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Leyte was a mess, but it occurred far too late in the war to actually change any outcomes. The primary fuckup committed by the US was Halsey leaving a bunch of escort carriers, destroyers, and various types of transport ship effectively uncovered in the face of a fairly sizable but by no means huge Japanese task force. That same task force ended up breaking off its' attack against the uncovered transports and escort carriers when a handful of American destroyers got in the way, launched a bunch of torpedoes at the Japanese force, laid down smoke screens, and ultimately got shot to pieces. That handful of destroyers probably saved thousands, if not tens of thousands, of American lives in the process. If not for Halsey's fuckup, Halsey might have been able to bag all of Kurita's center force, which probably wouldn't have mattered all that much because all the capital ships in center force were destroyed within a year of the Battle off Samar (which is what that particular piece of the Battle of Leyte Gulf was called). On the other hand, Kurita could have probably inflicted pretty serious casualties before center force was stopped. I doubt that would have mattered, even in the intermediate term, because any losses Kurita could have inflicted would have been replaceable.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:30
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Well it started off as a support action to the invasion of the Philippines. The Japanese mobilized basically their entire Navy under Kurita, split into three fleets, and the US had their 3rd and 7th Fleets in the area, under command from Halsey. It was broken up by 4 separate but connected surface engagements, the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea, the Battle of Surigao Strait, the Battle of Cape Engaño and the Battle off Samar. The Philippines were crucial in the island hopping campaign, and taking it would cut the Japanese off from their resources such as oil needed for the war effort. It was a toss up between this and an invasion of Formosa, but that's a discussion for a different day. MacArthur also wanted the symbolic victory of returning to the Philippines. The battle plans were basically the US committing its forces to supporting the invasion and screening against Japanese carrier attacks, while the Japanese attempted to draw in the US to a naval battle on their terms to destroy them, then mop up the invasion. I won't go into tactics and such other than to point out the weird decisions that were made, maybe someone else can do a complete effortpost. Before the battles, Kurita's flagship the Atago was sunk, and he had to swim until he was rescued by a destroyer. He then set up command on the Yamato, arguably the most powerful battleship ever built. This is important, because the US feared this ship and the firepower it could bring to bear. The first mistake occurs during the Battle of the Sibuyan Sea, when the Japanese Center Force (containing Yamato) was spotted and attacked by 3rd Fleet. Two days prior, Halsey had let two of his carrier groups steam away to rearm, and when the battle started he only recalled one of them. When the battle started, he only had three carrier groups in range to do anything, and the best positioned was also the weakest, containing the Intrepid and two other light carriers. A sizeable tit-for-tat carrier/battleship fight starts up. At the end of the battle, the Japanese have suffered some decent damage, the US not much, and the Center Fleet was allowed to escape through the San Bernardino Strait that night. Had 3rd Fleet been at full strength, it's possible that the Center Force and Kurita on the Yamato would have been taken out of the fight in one fell swoop, shortening the battle considerably. Halsey pursued them as they ran, and sent radio and telegraph messages to Nimitz and others, but curiously did not include the 7th Fleet in them. In the Battle of Surigao Strait, the Japanese Southern Force was a small and outdated screening fleet, tasked with passing through the Strait and linking up with Center Force. However two things worked against them. First was a strict order of radio silence, so they did not know Center Force had just taken a slight mauling and was not where they should have been. Second was that's precisely where 7th Fleet had set up a screen, in the mouth of Leyte Gulf. This part you can read elsewhere about as it's pretty incredible, featuring the last battleship on battleship action in history, as well as the last time a fleet "crossed the T" on an opponent. Basically it was a massacre due to no communications. Around this time, the Japanese Northern Force had been discovered (it was a decoy), and Halsey took 3rd Fleet on an adventure to find them. Wheeeeeee! Unfortunately this allowed the Center Force, the Yamato, and Kurita to emerge from the San Bernardino Strait, and they steamed south looking for a fight. This is where Taffy 3 becomes famous with the aforementioned USS Heermann. Basically a tiny rear end fleet is spotted by the Japanese main line. What happens next would be loving hilarious if it was fiction and didn't kill a bunch of people. Long story short, Taffy 3 makes more noise than a dog in a pocketbook, Kurita thinks he ran smack dab into Halsey's 3rd Fleet, and he runs the gently caress away. Around this time, 3rd Fleet finally runs into the Northern Force, and there's some carrier vs. carrier action 3rd Fleet wins handily. Now, 7th Fleet starts calling for help as they don't know that Kurita is leaving and have been getting the poo poo kicked out of them for hours. Halsey was supposed to be locking down the San Bernardino Strait but he's busy loving off on a wild goose chase. Again, if Halsey hadn't made that call with 3rd Fleet, it would have been positioned to deliver a death blow to the main Japanese fleet. By the time 3rd Fleet responds, Center Force had hosed off through the Strait and they could only assist by picking the survivors of Taffy 3 out of the water. The Battle of Cape Engaño was basically just a light engagement as remnants of Kurita's fleet ran screen for the main fleet to retreat. If Halsey had pressed the issue and hadn't sent his main force to rearm two days before the battle, none of this would have happened. If Kurita had actually known what he was up against he would have decimated 7th Fleet and picked off 3rd Fleet at his leisure. If Southern Force had been in contact with Kurita, it would have known they had no backup. If Halsey hadn't left the San Bernardino Strait he could have, again, destroyed Kurita's main force. gently caress ups in intelligence, strategy, and execution by both sides from start to finish. It's pretty spectacular.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:37
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Also yeah, like Unluckyimmortal said, none of this mattered to the overall outcome of the war. It certainly mattered to the guys on the ground in the Philippines on both sides, though. Their respective fates rode on whichever fleet won the engagement.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:38
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KoldPT posted:Could someone do an effortpost on Prussia's kings? Hegel did an amazing one on Big Fred already, but, reading up on Prussia, it seems incredible how often the Hohenzollern monarchs have constant swings in personality and style of rule from generation to generation, like a massive pendulum made of iron and guns.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:41
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Well, it didn't help that Frederick the Great didn't just take one for the team, get really drunk, and screw a goddamned woman. Instead, his nephew succeeded him, and that dude was real dumb. But you don't understand! Pretty solders who can march perfectly will beat Napoleon!
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Nov 18, 2013 19:44
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SeanBeansShako posted:But you don't understand! Pretty solders who can march perfectly will beat Napoleon!  Yeah, gently caress that guy.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:52
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He just liked the Absolutism part of enlightened Absolutism, no need to jump down his throat or anything.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:55
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It's funny, every time I read about WWII in the Pacific for any reason I am again shocked at the waste of resources represented by the Yamato and Musashi, particularly in light of Japan's serious material disadvantage and the fact that neither ship actually managed to engage the enemy to any effect that even remotely justified their existence. I've read, although I don't know whether or not this is actually true - that the design documents have been lost or destroyed for the Yamato class, and as both reside deep under the Pacific now, many specifics of their designs are and will forever remain unknown. I think that's a shame, but I also find it rather darkly funny. Edit: On the subject of Halsey and Leyte Gulf, the following detail cannot be omitted: Halsey received the following message after he hosed off leaving Taffy 3 undefended: quote:TURKEY TROTS TO WATER GG FROM CINCPAC ACTION COM THIRD FLEET INFO COMINCH CTF SEVENTY-SEVEN X WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS TASK FORCE THIRTY FOUR RR THE WORLD WONDERS quote:The message (and its trailing padding) became famous, and created some ill feeling, since it appeared to be a harsh criticism by Nimitz of Halsey's decision to pursue the decoy carriers and leave the landings uncovered. "I was stunned as if I had been struck in the face", Halsey later recalled. "The paper rattled in my hands, I snatched off my cap, threw it on the deck, and shouted something I am ashamed to remember", letting out an anguished sob. RADM Robert Carney, Halsey's Chief of Staff (who had argued strongly in favor of pursuing the carriers), witnessed Halsey's emotional outburst and reportedly grabbed him by the shoulders and shook him, shouting "Stop it! What the hell's the matter with you? Pull yourself together!" Recognizing his failure, Halsey sulked in inactivity for a full hour while Taffy 3 was fighting for its life – falsely claiming to be refueling his ships – before eventually turning around with his two fastest battleships, three light cruisers and eight destroyers and heading back to Samar, too late to have any impact on the battle. No bid COVID fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 19:58
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Actually, if you consider Battleships to be the decisive weapon in a sea battle - and nothing until December 7th, 1941 seriously put that into doubt - then pouring your limited ressources into the biggest and best battleships human ingenuity can build makes sense. Japan could never win a war of attrition, so they went for a limited number of ships that could hope to stand up to two or three enemy ships.
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Nov 18, 2013 20:02
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VikingSkull posted:Around this time, the Japanese Northern Force had been discovered (it was a decoy), and Halsey took 3rd Fleet on an adventure to find them. Wheeeeeee! Unfortunately this allowed the Center Force, the Yamato, and Kurita to emerge from the San Bernardino Strait, and they steamed south looking for a fight. This is where Taffy 3 becomes famous with the aforementioned USS Heermann. Basically a tiny rear end fleet is spotted by the Japanese main line. What happens next would be loving hilarious if it was fiction and didn't kill a bunch of people. Long story short, Taffy 3 makes more noise than a dog in a pocketbook, Kurita thinks he ran smack dab into Halsey's 3rd Fleet, and he runs the gently caress away. Ok. That really took the cake for fuckups.
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Nov 18, 2013 20:03
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Unluckyimmortal posted:It's funny, every time I read about WWII in the Pacific for any reason I am again shocked at the waste of resources represented by the Yamato and Musashi, particularly in light of Japan's serious material disadvantage and the fact that neither ship actually managed to engage the enemy to any effect that even remotely justified their existence. Hey at least Yamato and Musashi got to shoot at things, even if they were tin cans and planes. The third member of the Yamato class was not so lucky. quote:In June 1942, following the Japanese defeat at Midway, construction of Shinano was suspended, and the hull was gradually rebuilt as an aircraft carrier.[41] She was designed as a 64,800-ton support vessel that would be capable of ferrying, repairing and replenishing the airfleets of other carriers.[42][43] Although she was originally scheduled for commissioning in early 1945,[44] the construction of the ship was accelerated after the Battle of the Philippine Sea;[45] this resulted in Shinano being launched on 5 October 1944 and commissioned a little more than a month later on 19 November. Shinano departed Yokosuka for Kure nine days later. In the early morning on 29 November, Shinano was hit by four torpedoes from the USS Archer-Fish.[41] Although the damage seemed manageable, poor flooding control caused the vessel to list to starboard. Shortly before midday, she capsized and sank, taking 1,435 of her 2,400-man crew with her.[41] To this day, Shinano is the largest naval vessel to have been sunk by a submarine
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Nov 18, 2013 20:05
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Just goes to show that Germany does not hold a monopoly amongst the Axis powers on building completely worthless giant-piece-of-poo poo vehicles and ships.
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Nov 18, 2013 20:09
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Unluckyimmortal posted:Just goes to show that Germany does not hold a monopoly amongst the Axis powers on building completely worthless giant-piece-of-poo poo vehicles and ships. Edit: Then I forgot that there was more than one in Vienna, started using the one I was most familiar with as a landmark, and had no idea for a few days why I was getting lost. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 20:20
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I've always loved that wikipedia entry. quote:L-Tower was demolished after the war and replaced by a very similar looking building by T-Mobile. This is so cute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haus_des_Meeres
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Nov 18, 2013 20:25
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a travelling HEGEL posted:They do take the plum for these things, though. Have you ever been walking around Vienna, minding your own business, and then out of nowhere FLAK TOWER, looming out of the city like the concrete cover over Chernobyl? It's unnerving, man. Go about your life, do whatever you please--the FLAK TOWER doesn't give a drat. Were FlaK towers really worthless, though? To me it seems like it's an idea that could have been worthwhile for some non-German major cities too - elevating your heavy AA batteries above tree and rooftops while providing a heavily reinforced and defended shelter for your civilian population. AFAIK none of them were destroyed during war, and the Berlin Zoo tower provided direct fire support to defenders of Berlin and in general stood as a resistance strongpoint to the very end. But no disagreement here that the concept is quite boggling in comparison to what everyone else at the time was doing. Maybe one day people will see them as a romantic remnant of mankind's past, just like medieval forts do today (which must have inspired fear and terror in serfs). Nenonen fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 20:33
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Those Flak towers were quite effective at providing a reliable shelter though? Too reliable, really, considering how difficult they are to destroy.
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Nov 18, 2013 20:35
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They were quite effective at providing a reliable shelter to a relatively tiny minority of each city's population. Again, just a comically inefficient use of resources.
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Nov 18, 2013 20:39
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Nenonen posted:Were FlaK towers really worthless, though? To me it seems like it's an idea that could have been worthwhile for some non-German major cities too - elevating your heavy AA batteries above tree and rooftops while providing a heavily reinforced and defended shelter for your civilian population. AFAIK none of them were destroyed during war, and the Berlin Zoo tower provided direct fire support to defenders of Berlin and in general stood as a resistance strongpoint to the very end. It's just that looking at them is a little...odd. 
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Nov 18, 2013 20:41
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Hovermoose posted:Did civilian resistance (as in not organized militia but ordinary people doing acts of defiance in their daily lives) really have any effect during WWII? To which kind of effect are you referring? Political? Social? Obviously not military... I can speak a little bit about the French. The Vichy regime started out very popular in 1940 and Petain was a real hero to all but a very small minority of Frenchmen. Problems began to appear when more than 1.5 million French soldiers remained in German prisoner-of-war camps. Petain promised to get them released quickly but the vast majority remained in prison until the end of the war. That was hugely unpopular. There was a very interesting book about the wives of French POWs: http://www.amazon.com/We-Will-Wait-Prisoners-1940-1945/dp/0300047746 The wives formed an association to lobby Vichy and contested the regimes patriarchal approach. However, the association disappeared in may 1945 and didn't really have any long-term consequences. Most women wanted a return to normalcy. There were riots against food rationing and even some strikes in French mines. The black market was huge, does that count as civilian resistance? However it was largely tolerated by the regime. Shannon Fogg has a book about every day life under Vichy: http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Everyday-Life-Vichy-France/dp/0521269504 The black market led to new concepts of familial networks but once again the changes disappear after the 1945. So there were different avenues of "civilian" resistance, but Vichy is what really killed Vichy. They became increasingly unpopular, especially after the Germans invaded southern France without firing a shot in November 1942. Pierre Laval was also hugely unpopular although Petain himself was well liked up until the end. I don't really know what you're asking but that's my stab at an answer. space pope fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 20:45
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Since I'm super tired and feel like poo poo, here's a song about being super tired and feeling like poo poo, "Francois 1er Part En Guerre." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Dj_BUUhAU quote:The King's going over the mountains, This is more upbeat: the Anthem of France, first verse from 1590. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h5M78YVN8M quote:Long live Henri IV That's right motherfuckers, our head of state can drink and fight and gently caress all night. Suck it, lesser monarchs. 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 20:56
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Unluckyimmortal posted:
The best part is that all that TURKEY TROTS and THE WORLD WONDERS stuff is just random cruft inserted into the message to make it harder to decrypt, everything after that RR should have been stripped before the message even got to Halsey but it wasn't. So again, fuckup layered on fuckup.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:00
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Phanatic posted:The best part is that all that TURKEY TROTS and THE WORLD WONDERS stuff is just random cruft inserted into the message to make it harder to decrypt, everything after that RR should have been stripped before the message even got to Halsey but it wasn't. So again, fuckup layered on fuckup. Not only that, but even without being stripped of superfluous poo poo, Halsey knew how messages were transmitted and should have been aware that it was dumb poo poo thrown together. Hell, it was a reference to the anniversary of the charge of the Light Brigade, something a commander of his stature would have most likely recognized. Makes Taffy 3 even more heroic, considering. Halsey was dumb, sometimes.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:04
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Not only that but he threw his uniform cap on the floor and stomped on it, then sulked for an hour before ordering his force to assist Taffy 3. People were literally dying while he sulked. This isn't Achilles we're talking about, this happened in 1944.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:12
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Also wasn't Halsey's communications officer literally the only one, out of dozens of radio stations that recieved it, to leave the padding in like an idiot?
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Nov 18, 2013 21:12
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Also wasn't Halsey's communications officer literally the only one, out of dozens of radio stations that recieved it, to leave the padding in like an idiot?
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Nov 18, 2013 21:27
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Hovermoose posted:Did civilian resistance (as in not organized militia but ordinary people doing acts of defiance in their daily lives) really have any effect during WWII? It depends on what you mean by "ordinary people". In Poland, resistance was very extensive, to the point that the people talk about the Polish Underground State. It had a functioning parliament with all the pre-war parties represented, and it served a lot more purpose than to just bring all the partisan groups under a single command: it had a committee to document German crimes in Poland, a department of education to help organize secret classes (the Germans had banned all secondary and tertiary education for the Poles), a department of justice (presumably to legitimize underground justice against traitors, collaborators and szmalcownicy, the people who gave up Jews to the Nazis for money), it even had a department of agriculture (although I have no idea what for). This underground government had its armed force in the form of the Armia Krajowa (Home Army - aka Sluzba Zwycięstwu Polski from September to November 1939, Związek Walki Zbrojnej until 1942), which itself was made up from several groups commissioned by the pre-war political groups of the country - a fascist and a communist militia remained outside the AK and thus the "mainstream"). They were well organized - split into Divisions, Regiments and so on. Some groups numbered a couple thousand people, camped in the dense woods, had uniforms, horses and some heavy equipment - either hidden during the September 1939 campaign or captured from the Germans, sometimes air-dropped by the western Allies. Other units worked in cities and were significantly smaller, acting in deep conspiracy and pretending to be regular, law-abiding citizens most of the time. In any case, most of those guys were ordinary people, for a given value of ordinary. The AK had a subdivision named Kierownictwo Dywersji (Kedyw - Directorate for Subversion). These guys would pull off things like sabotaging railways, assassinating prominent Nazi figures and blowing stuff up. However, within the organisation there were also groups that dealt with "small sabotage" - many of them made up of kids too young to join the actual fighting forces, mostly former Boy Scouts. They would paint murals on the walls, post bills encouraging patriotic behaviour (such as not reading German-sanctioned newspapers, not going to German-sanctioned theatres, answering any German questions with "I don't speak German" and so on). They would break windows in shops that dealt exclusively with Germans and photo parlours that had pictures of German troops on display. They would splash acid on clothes of women who dated Germans. They would throw tear gas into cinemas and add laxatives to food in trendy restaurants. Make no mistake, these activities were not any less risky than actually picking up a gun and going into the woods - ripping off a German poster was enough reason to get a 15-year-old up against the wall - and yet, those people made contests of who can steal the biggest Nazi flag. Were they ordinary people? Yes and no. And there were also people completely unaffiliated with any sort of resistance who worked in factories making steel, munitions, or anything really for German use who would take those notices to heart and deliberately worked slowly and sometimes sabotaged their equipment or products. Many Wehrmacht troops died because someone working in a factory in Bumfuckowo or Nowheregród decided to mess with their bullets back on the assembly line. And these guys were definitely regular people in any sense of the term.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:36
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