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Elotana posted:Leaf is literally a meth addict in prison for serial burglary. Manziel got too drunk the night before volunteering at a summer camp and overslept. Seems legit. I call bullshit on anyone having fun in Thibodaux. That boy just ain't right.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:25
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mcmagic posted:A virtual "gently caress you" to the guys who are at the top of the profession you want to be in makes him someone i wouldn't want to invest any cash in. I can understand concerns about missing important dates and the partying but why the gently caress should Manziel have to kiss the Manning family's rings?
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Nov 18, 2013 17:25
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TheChirurgeon posted:You and I have differing opinions of the level of maturity of most 20-year-olds. Not every 20-year-old athlete gets caught selling his autograph and then proceeds to taunt the organization that controls his eligibility. Compared to how the NCAA treated other incidents he got off incredibly light. Though part of this may have been related to the heat the NCAA was receiving at the time of the incident around player compensation and items on their site. A football player, ARRESTED?! Man, how will that dude ever find a job? Also, the NCAA didn't do anything to him because they couldn't come up with any proof that he actually sold autographs. His "suspension" was for failing to stop people from selling his autograph for money, which is bullshit of the highest order. The Manziel moral panic is pretty hilarious given all of the pre-season prognostication about how he was distracted, and letting success go to his head, and how he didn't have his nose in the playbook and was going to drag the team down. Instead he's dragging the team to yet more wins that they really don't deserve given the state of their defense. mcmagic posted:A virtual "gently caress you" to the guys who are at the top of the profession you want to be in makes him someone i wouldn't want to invest any cash in. Peyton Manning brushed it off, noted that Eli also had some problems with keeping his commitments in college, and didn't have anything negative to say about Manziel. Why do you care more than he does?
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Nov 18, 2013 17:26
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NippleFloss posted:Peyton Manning brushed it off, noted that Eli also has some problems with keeping his commitments in college, and didn't have anything negative to say about Manziel. Why do you care more than he does? Because it's a big red flag on his maturity which is part of a pattern and not an isolated event.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:28
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mcmagic posted:Because it's a big red flag on his maturity which is part of a pattern and not an isolated event. Is Manziel your new Cory Booker now?
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Nov 18, 2013 17:30
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I honestly wouldn't touch Manziel before about round 3. He's small for an NFL QB and has a lot of bad habits that will need to get beaten out of him to succeed in the NFL. That makes him a serious project that you don't spend a high draft pick on.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:34
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Elotana posted:Leaf is literally a meth addict in prison for serial burglary. Manziel got too drunk the night before volunteering at a summer camp and overslept. Seems legit. He wasn't a meth addict in college, though. (probably) NippleFloss posted:A football player, ARRESTED?! Man, how will that dude ever find a job? Also, the NCAA didn't do anything to him because they couldn't come up with any proof that he actually sold autographs. His "suspension" was for failing to stop people from selling his autograph for money, which is bullshit of the highest order. The Manziel moral panic is pretty hilarious given all of the pre-season prognostication about how he was distracted, and letting success go to his head, and how he didn't have his nose in the playbook and was going to drag the team down. Instead he's dragging the team to yet more wins that they really don't deserve given the state of their defense. You can ignore them if you want, but they're red flags that plenty of other QBs in the draft don't have. You can pretend like this happens to everyone, but it actually doesn't--There are plenty of QBs that see the national spotlight and don't end up making the same decisions or getting into the same trouble. Remember all that trouble AJ McCarron got into? No? I'm not saying Manziel can't be a good professional QB, I'm saying that I think there's a real risk there, particularly if he's drafted in the first couple rounds. I'd be terrified of my team drafting him if this were 2009 and he could hold out. Re: Manning's comments: He's a smart player who has been around a while. He knows how to manage his image at this point and he knows that it's not in his best interests (or Manziel's) to publicly criticize Manziel, so why would he bother? Manning not saying "it's a big deal" to the press is not the same as him believing it (though sure, maybe he didn't believe it). Also, Manning isn't drafting a QB or worrying about his team drafting one, so why would he care to begin with? TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 17:37
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I think we can all agree that someone will reach on Manziel and take him way before he should be taken.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:39
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No Butt Stuff posted:I think we can all agree that someone will reach on Manziel and take him way before he should be taken. That would require us to agree where he should be taken.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:41
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Azhais posted:I honestly wouldn't touch Manziel before about round 3. He's small for an NFL QB and has a lot of bad habits that will need to get beaten out of him to succeed in the NFL. That makes him a serious project that you don't spend a high draft pick on. Yeah I lean toward the side of thinking it's ridiculous to bring up Ryan Leaf compared to Manziel with the issues but as a prospect I just don't like him all that much. He's fun as hell to watch in college though.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:44
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TheChirurgeon posted:I'm not saying Manziel can't be a good professional QB, I'm saying that I think there's a real risk there, particularly if he's drafted in the first couple rounds. I'd be terrified of my team drafting him if this were 2009 and he could hold out. There is a risk with literally every playing you draft. If he was 6'3" and 240 lbs there would be no doubt that he was going #1 in the draft, so it's sort of hard to take the "character concerns" angle seriously because what it really seems to mean is "I'm not sure he can succeed in the NFL based on his size and style of play, and also I think he's a douchebag."
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Nov 18, 2013 18:01
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Declan MacManus posted:That would require us to agree where he should be taken. I'm saying he's going to be taken ~10-15 pick. And that's way too high for him to play human pinball in the NFL. I will fight anyone who disagrees.
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Nov 18, 2013 18:03
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Elotana posted:Is there a history of undersized mobile QBs getting outright destroyed as opposed to merely being ineffective? I know it happened to Pat White but helmet-to-helmet is dangerous no matter how bulky the rest of your body is.
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Nov 18, 2013 18:06
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RGIII
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Nov 18, 2013 18:07
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No Butt Stuff posted:I'm saying he's going to be taken ~10-15 pick. And that's way too high for him to play human pinball in the NFL. I will fight anyone who disagrees. Let's wrassle my dude Rap posted:RGIII It happened on a freak injury on a scramble rather than a designed run and RG3 still doesn't know how to slide so I don't think it's impossible for small mobile dudes to survive and even thrive Also I wouldn't call RG3 undersized
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Nov 18, 2013 18:10
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I mean I wouldn't take him until the second round myself but that's because of his decision making in games, not because he likes to party or lacks the measurables of, say, Logan Thomas
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Nov 18, 2013 18:14
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Declan MacManus posted:It happened on a freak injury on a scramble rather than a designed run and RG3 still doesn't know how to slide so I don't think it's impossible for small mobile dudes to survive and even thrive Russell Wilson is the best analogue, and he's doing just fine in the NFL despite people predicting that leaving the pocket would get him killed.
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Nov 18, 2013 18:18
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Declan MacManus posted:Also I wouldn't call RG3 undersized Yeah, he's about the same size as Mike Vick or Eli Manning. He does look like a stick but he's about average for his position. Re: Manziel/Leaf chat - he's not neck and neck for Number 1 pick, at least, the way Leaf was supposed to be with Manning. Maybe top 5 if a team is feeling particularly lucky, but I can't see anyone being dumb enough to not go with Teddy or Clowney at 1 or 2.
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Nov 18, 2013 18:59
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Were people saying the same things about Newton in 2011? Besides that one vaguely-racist article, I mean. VVV He won the Heisman throwing a lot to Ryan Swopes last year, too, and his departure hasn't diminished Manziel's ability to throw the ball. bhsman fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 19:03
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The only thing we can agree on is that at some point before the draft there will be a five  report that a team is concerned about his character and won't touch him with a 20-foot pole and that will eat up the better part of a week on SportsCenter. Also that farting around in the backfield for five seconds and playing Go Get It with Mike Evans won't work in the NFL unless he somehow ends up on Detroit.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:05
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NippleFloss posted:There is a risk with literally every playing you draft. No poo poo, but that doesn't mean that some players aren't more risky than others. quote:If he was 6'3" and 240 lbs there would be no doubt that he was going #1 in the draft, so it's sort of hard to take the "character concerns" angle seriously because what it really seems to mean is "I'm not sure he can succeed in the NFL based on his size and style of play, and also I think he's a douchebag." No what i mean is "I'm not sure he can succeed in the NFL based on his size and style of play, and also I think he has a more difficult time staying out of trouble and keeping his mouth shut than other QB prospects." C. Everett Koop posted:The only thing we can agree on is that at some point before the draft there will be a five I mean, it could work (and has) in Dallas, though seriously you can't convince me that Manziel could deal with the scrutiny/attention Romo gets. Hell, I don't even think Romo can handle it.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:36
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I dont really get the red flags on Manziel's character as they neither relate to football nor indicate a future of arrests and suspensions. If you created a policy where you won't draft any prospect who got kicked out of a party or received impermissible benefits in college, then you'd end up forfeiting your entire draft. If Manziel was somehow an outlier for possibly receiving impermissible benefits, then fine. But that kind of belief is just sticking your head in the sand, isn't it? And it doesn't really matter to an NFL team, it has no bearing on anything. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 19:42
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Declan MacManus posted:Also I wouldn't call RG3 undersized I think the "RG3 is undersized" thing is part of the longer "RG3 is undersized for a running QB" statement than a generic complaint. RG3 is fine if he's gonna be a pocket passer. He's undersized for a running guy. Dan Deacon Jones posted:Yeah, he's about the same size as Mike Vick or Eli Manning. He does look like a stick but he's about average for his position. And this is the net result. Vick has had some success, but he's also been perennially injured because he's just too small to take the beating. It's just too bad RG3's conversion to more of a pocket passer has actually resulted in him looking like a 2013 Eli Manning
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Nov 18, 2013 19:43
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Declan MacManus posted:That would require us to agree where he should be taken.
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Nov 18, 2013 19:46
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Size and ability to pull off the ludicrous stuff he does in college are perfectly reasonable arguments to have about Manziel but you are kidding yourself if you think the trumped up bullshit from this summer is going to be a serious consideration to more than a very small amount of NFL teams.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:38
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b0ng posted:Size and ability to pull off the ludicrous stuff he does in college are perfectly reasonable arguments to have about Manziel but you are kidding yourself if you think the trumped up bullshit from this summer is going to be a serious consideration to more than a very small amount of NFL teams. Yeah because NFL teams have never passed on a talented player over things like suspicion of doing coke or possibly having a mother who is a prostitute Even if you disagree that these behavior bits are red flags, don't be so naive as to assume that teams won't care.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:49
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TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah because NFL teams have never passed on a talented player over things like suspicion of doing coke or possibly having a mother who is a prostitute There is also a pretty thick line between possible coke habit and got drunk.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:52
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TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah because NFL teams have never passed on a talented player over things like suspicion of doing coke or possibly having a mother who is a prostitute And these are comparable to things Manziel has done last summer, including
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Nov 18, 2013 21:54
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Also don't pretend like Jeff Ireland represents all GMs instead of bringing his own unique insanity to the position
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Nov 18, 2013 21:55
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TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah because NFL teams have never passed on a talented player over things like suspicion of doing coke or possibly having a mother who is a prostitute Character is a bigger concern for QB than WR. You can't be a walking clownshow and succeed at QB in the NFL.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:57
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If "character concerns" are getting drunk, partying, and telling the NCAA to gently caress off then that's the type of character concern I can be down with.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:02
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mcmagic posted:Character is a bigger concern for QB than WR. You can't be a walking clownshow and succeed at QB in the NFL. I'm pretty sure I'd be far more wary of an over-the-top diva WR than QB, and I love Chad Johnson.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:03
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mcmagic posted:Character is a bigger concern for QB than WR. You can't be a walking clownshow and succeed at QB in the NFL.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:05
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mcmagic posted:Character is a bigger concern for QB than WR. You can't be a walking clownshow and succeed at QB in the NFL. Ben Roethlisberger raped a lady. Michael Vick went to prison for a few years for killing dogs. They both seemed to do okay. Or does the clownshow theory only apply to serious crimes like getting drunk and oversleeping once?
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Nov 18, 2013 22:11
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NippleFloss posted:Russell Wilson is the best analogue, and he's doing just fine in the NFL despite people predicting that leaving the pocket would get him killed. Wilson is built like a brick though. He's just short.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:15
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mcmagic posted:Character is a bigger concern for QB than WR. You can't be a walking clownshow and succeed at QB in the NFL. Yes because on the field Johnny Manziel can be described as a clown show  His physical traits are going to be scrutinized a hell of a lot more than offseason activities like partying in college and a laughable half game suspension over poo poo that does not matter in the NFL. The things that Manziel has done in the SEC is going to give him a wide variance of draft grades and that variance will have next to nothing to do with anything that happened off the field this summer or last. Especially now with how salaries are structured for drafted players getting a QB you want in the first round is not going to cripple your salary cap so if there are any teams that believe in Manziel's playmaking ability on the field you bet they will reach on him.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:15
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Everybody concerned about Manziel's character, what would you say about the authenticity of his smile?  Johnny Football - 6'1", 210 lbs. Case Keenum - 6'1", 206 lbs. Drew Brees - 6'0", 209 lbs. Russell Wilson - 5'11", 206 lbs.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:16
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NippleFloss posted:Ben Roethlisberger raped a lady. Michael Vick went to prison for a few years for killing dogs. They both seemed to do okay. Or does the clownshow theory only apply to serious crimes like getting drunk and oversleeping once? Let's be honest here: If Hernandez's trial somehow ends up in some sort of 5 year plea deal, he'll be playing football again. The teams only really give a poo poo about who lets them win and how much money they make while doing so. What those concerns do accomplish is pushing down their draft stock. No need to take a rapist #1 overall, he'll be there later. Same with drugs and laziness and things of that nature barring serious concerns that the player is just gonna sit around his hookah all day after getting his first paycheck.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:16
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NippleFloss posted:Ben Roethlisberger raped a lady. Michael Vick went to prison for a few years for killing dogs. They both seemed to do okay. Or does the clownshow theory only apply to serious crimes like getting drunk and oversleeping once? These are things they did (or more importantly, were caught doing) after being drafted so I'm not sure what your point is. bhsman posted:And these are comparable to things Manziel has done last summer, including Getting suspended for "meeting with Deion Sanders and lying to the NCAA about it" is exactly on the level with "Getting disciplined for probably selling your autograph" if not less heinous so yeah
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Nov 18, 2013 22:17
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GMs really care about character which is why Richie Incognito is a fine outstanding human being and a member of a leadership council and Jonathan Martin is a soft weak pussy with "feelings"TheChirurgeon posted:Getting suspended for "meeting with Deion Sanders and lying to the NCAA about it" is exactly on the level with "Getting disciplined for probably selling your autograph" if not less heinous so yeah
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Nov 18, 2013 22:18
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