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Arschlochkind posted:Everybody concerned about Manziel's character, what would you say about the authenticity of his smile? Seems legit.   
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Nov 18, 2013 22:24
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Quest For Glory II posted:GMs really care about character which is why Richie Incognito is a fine outstanding human being and Jonathan Martin is a soft weak pussy with "feelings" See this sentiment baffles me because I get it if you don't think Manziel has character issues--the evidence isn't that strong and there's a debate to be had there. But acting as though most GMs don't care about these issues just ignores the last 20+ years of draft history (not to mention odd comments about Rothelisberger and Incognito that basically treat post-draft character issues as though they were known pre-draft and ignored). Teams are extremely risk-averse and do pay attention to potential character issues. Some teams care more than others, obviously--some teams look at character issues as a way to get undervalued players, and other teams avoid those guys. Quest For Glory II posted:GMs really care about character which is why Richie Incognito is a fine outstanding human being and a member of a leadership council and Jonathan Martin is a soft weak pussy with "feelings" I've already mentioned other issues, such as the arrest and the camp issue, and I don't think it's fair to act like "this poo poo happens to everybody" when actually no, you don't hear about this type of thing happening from the majority of highly-valued prospects. Jota posted:That Ryan Leaf comparison on his personality...holy loving poo poo you have got to be kidding me. Haha yeah, that was hyperbole on my part. TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 22:24
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That Ryan Leaf comparison on his personality...holy loving poo poo you have got to be kidding me.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:25
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TheChirurgeon posted:Getting suspended for "meeting with Deion Sanders and lying to the NCAA about it" is exactly on the level with "Getting disciplined for probably selling your autograph" if not less heinous so yeah It that just means people will want Bridgewater or Mariota first, by all means.  Hell, Houston took a guy accused of wiping poo poo over a hotel room (that never really substantiated beyond the actual claims themselves) in the first and they were satisfied with their own investigation. And Bob McNair harps on having a team full of good characters.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:26
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bhsman posted:It that just means people will want Bridgewater or Mariota first, by all means. It turned out not to be him in the video of a dude masturbating that got posted from his account though, right?
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Nov 18, 2013 22:27
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TheChirurgeon posted:It turned out not to be him in the video of a dude masturbating that got posted from his account though, right? By his account, his girlfriend had his phone while Hopkins was in a team meeting and posted on Twitter saying as much when the video was uploaded. She also was the first to tell him that she immediately knew it wasn't him. 
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Nov 18, 2013 22:30
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At first I think that the Texans would potentially pass on a guy like Manziel possibly because of character concerns owing to the type of team McNair likes to field. And then I remember that Manziel plays for Texas A&M. Although I suppose part of that hinges on Kubiak's employment status after this year. But still.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:33
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TheChirurgeon posted:See this sentiment baffles me because I get it if you don't think Manziel has character issues--the evidence isn't that strong and there's a debate to be had there. But acting as though most GMs don't care about these issues just ignores the last 20+ years of draft history (not to mention odd comments about Rothelisberger and Incognito that basically treat post-draft character issues as though they were known pre-draft and ignored). Incognito was booted from the program that let Lawrence Phillips play.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:33
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TheChirurgeon posted:These are things they did (or more importantly, were caught doing) after being drafted so I'm not sure what your point is. Mcmagic said you can't succeed as a an in the NFL if you are a "clownshow." I was just pointing out that the evidence suggests otherwise, unless you think rape and dog murder are less serious offenses than what Manziel has done.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:36
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Arschlochkind posted:At first I think that the Texans would potentially pass on a guy like Manziel possibly because of character concerns owing to the type of team McNair likes to field. And then I remember that Manziel plays for Texas A&M. I want them to draft Manziel, but counterpoint: McNair didn't go with VY, either.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:36
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bhsman posted:I want them to draft Manziel, but counterpoint: McNair didn't go with VY, either. And I thank God for that every day.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:39
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Febreeze posted:So where are the Giants drafting now? The Carolina/Pats game isn't going to affect their standing so I'm curious if we are out of the top 10 at this point. Just outside of the top ten right now but probably 32 by the end of the season.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:39
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TheChirurgeon posted:I've already mentioned other issues, such as the arrest and the camp issue, and I don't think it's fair to act like "this poo poo happens to everybody" when actually no, you don't hear about this type of thing happening from the majority of highly-valued prospects. I mean Cam Newton was the subject of massive off-field scrutiny, from an arrest for theft that kicked him down to JuCo, to accusations of taking a huge cash payout from Auburn, to having a "phony smile" and claims that he was selfish and cared only about himself. Was he or wasn't he the #1 pick still? If 32 GMs pass on Manziel it will be because they have concerns about his ability to be a starting NFL quarterback with his size, his style of play, his work ethic, his arm strength, his footwork, etc. And they're legit concerns. And that's what I would point to first, if he were to fall to the 2nd day. Dude could get broken in half trying to reach for a first down on every play. And he is not going to be able to scramble around on every play with NFL defensive ends and linebackers chasing him down. I know he is compared to Romo a lot but Romo really does hang in the pocket a lot more than people think (and his injuries have generally come from being in the pocket as well!). I would actually be surprised if Manziel was taken in the first round but it's not because of character, it's because as a football player he is not some unbelievable physical freak and he is extremely reckless. His vision running downfield is absolutely nuts, but a lot of his running in the NFL is going to be of the lateral fashion. And I'm always nervous about short QB prospects that are better outside the pocket. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 22:51
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Can we talk about Manziel's shoes? I don't like a quarterback who wears fancy shoes. At all. I mean Can you believe that poo poo? You think you'd see Unitas out there in those? Montana?  Nope, that kid is trouble. Give me the 6'3 220 pocket QB from Nebraska.
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Nov 18, 2013 22:53
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Arschlochkind posted:At first I think that the Texans would potentially pass on a guy like Manziel possibly because of character concerns owing to the type of team McNair likes to field. And then I remember that Manziel plays for Texas A&M. Texans will draft a "Less than a boy scout" type player (Cushing, Montgomery, Hopkins) type guys if they think they check out. Manziel doesn't have the same type of roid/laziness/defecation baggage as the three mentioned, but it seems they would look over what has transpired in the last two college offseasons and not bat that much of an eye. I think a lot of the people harping on Manziel missing the Manning camp and getting photographed all over the place were banking on him being less effective this year because "nose in the playbook" and all that nonsense. That really hasn't played out as such this season (His passing numbers are all up) and is making me, personally, lean towards his off field issues being more hype than actual substance. I will also re-iterate that with the expensiveness of even above average QB's in the league, and with rookies coming in doing fairly well to start their careers, I think surprising QB picks will be made higher and higher every year. I'm very interested in seeing what comes about when pro-days and combine measurements come out on Manziel and what scouts and GM's think about his interviews. Right now, all we have to go on is college tape that is very productive and against a lot of top names at that level of the sport. Polarizing as he may be, Manziel is going to play in the NFL and I think his draft position is going to solely rest on whether teams think his play on the field can translate; not whether his off field antics will keep him from being able to be a QB in the NFL.
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Nov 18, 2013 23:00
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Arschlochkind posted:Johnny Football - 6'1", 210 lbs. I'll believe this when he's measured at the combine, although yeah he's not like Trindon Holliday tiny or anything ridiculous like that. Groucho Marxist posted:Incognito was booted from the program that let Lawrence Phillips play. Haha, yeah saying there weren't issues with Incognito only works if you're comparing him to Christian Peter. e: Not that he's important to this conversation either way. Oops had the wrong Peter. Grittybeard fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 23:22
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TheChirurgeon posted:He wasn't a meth addict in college, though. (probably) The "character concerns" only exist because TMZ/Deadspin spent the entire year up his bunghole dispatching reports about bog-standard college fuckups.
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Nov 19, 2013 00:10
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Just to move things away from Manziel for a bit, I've seen a few mock drafts with the Texans now at #3 overall, with the selection being Bridgewater, then Mariota, and finally Barr or Clowney going to Houston. Barr plays in a 3-4 defense, meaning he wouldn't have to change his position, but the idea of skipping over Clowney for him seems odd. OTOH, a lot of other Texans fans are complaining (mostly out of post-Mario PTSD, justified or otherwise) that Clowney doesn't have a motor. Are there better arguments to support this or is it just thinly veiled racism? I know Clowney has been dealing with injuries this year, but I wanted to know if there was some perspective on his play last year, as well.
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Nov 19, 2013 01:42
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It pretty much started this year after he was sluggish in the season opener against North Carolina, though that was probably a result of the stomach virus he had just gotten over
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Nov 19, 2013 03:28
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Clowney is the best player in the draft and it isn't even close, they're just dumb as hell
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Nov 19, 2013 03:50
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Jota posted:That Ryan Leaf comparison on his personality...holy loving poo poo you have got to be kidding me. Ignoring what happened to Leaf after his NFL career, did he have these character issues that Manziel supposedly has? Was it ever brought up before the draft?
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Nov 19, 2013 04:13
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Yaws posted:Ignoring what happened to Leaf after his NFL career, did he have these character issues that Manziel supposedly has? Was it ever brought up before the draft? The big thing was when they asked him what he would do after he was drafted, he said something like "I'd party in Vegas over the weekend" and  that's when everybody knew he was trouble and Manning was the true number one pick and blah blah blahSo he tanked the interviews and had a reputation as a party animal (although no one realized that he was up to his neck in vicodin even back then)
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Nov 19, 2013 04:26
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It's funny to me the parallels between Manziel and Joe Namath when it comes to being put in a spotlight at a young age and having moral crusaders scrutinize his every move. I hope he goes to the Jets, wins Super Bowls, and they change his nickname to Broadway Johnny.
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Nov 19, 2013 04:34
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Elotana posted:Leaf is literally a meth addict in prison for serial burglary. Manziel got too drunk the night before volunteering at a summer camp and overslept. Seems legit. Leaf's thing is opiates, not meth.
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Nov 19, 2013 04:41
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Whoever is picking No. 2 in this draft is in the best possible position. You either get your choice of a phenomenal QB class or you get Jadeveon Clowney because the No. 1 team is full of stupid shitheads. And Ryan Leaf was an rear end in a top hat in college but he absolutely melted down in the pros once it became apparent that he wasn't and never would be Peyton Manning or anything resembling him.
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Nov 19, 2013 04:45
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As I said early in the thread, it's going to own a lot when Manziel falls in the draft for being a college kid and Andy Reid ends up taking him.
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Nov 19, 2013 08:34
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Roasted Donut posted:Clowney is the best player in the draft and it isn't even close, they're just dumb as hell Sometimes to me it looked like he didn't give a poo poo, but maybe thats because they ran the play away from him on purpose again and he was just like "gently caress this"?
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Nov 19, 2013 15:06
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LiquidFriend posted:As I said early in the thread, it's going to own a lot when Manziel falls in the draft for being a college kid and Andy Reid ends up taking him. Shut up this is exactly what will happen.
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Nov 19, 2013 15:46
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LiquidFriend posted:As I said early in the thread, it's going to own a lot when Manziel falls in the draft for being a college kid and Andy Reid ends up taking him. I can't tell if I want this to happen or not...
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Nov 19, 2013 15:57
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No Butt Stuff posted:I can't tell if I want this to happen or not... Because Kolb, Kafka, Hall, and Feeley turned out so great under Reid's tutelage?
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Nov 19, 2013 16:00
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TheChirurgeon posted:Because Kolb, Kafka, Hall, and Feeley turned out so great under Reid's tutelage? Kolb had a chance before he got destroyed. And mostly because QB will be a position that's going to have to get upgraded in a few years at most. Alex Smith is definitely a servicable fill-in, but he's not the QB of KCs future. Is Manziel? I dunno. poo poo, that's the scouts and coaches and a bunch of other smart peoples jobs.
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Nov 19, 2013 16:07
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No Butt Stuff posted:Kolb had a chance before he got destroyed. I agree that Smith is just a serviceable fill-in, but my point was more that it isn't clear that Reid has been a great developer of young talent at the QB position. He never really got to work with Foles and when McNabb began to fall apart Reid moved on to Vick. I just don't know that Reid is the best coach for Manziel. I think that if a team wants to get the most out of Manziel they might be well-served hiring Spavital to work with Manziel and the offense, though probably more as a QB coach and not offensive coordinator. Although I'm not a big fan of Sherman, it appears that having him continue to work with Tannehill has been beneficial in Miami (offensive line issues notwithstanding) and if you were going all-in on Manziel, it's something I'd consider. Re: Kolb, I don't know that I agree that he was going to be good before he went to Arizona. If he was so great a prospect he probably wouldn't have been traded.
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Nov 19, 2013 16:14
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bhsman posted:Just to move things away from Manziel for a bit, I've seen a few mock drafts with the Texans now at #3 overall, with the selection being Bridgewater, then Mariota, and finally Barr or Clowney going to Houston. Barr plays in a 3-4 defense, meaning he wouldn't have to change his position, but the idea of skipping over Clowney for him seems odd. OTOH, a lot of other Texans fans are complaining (mostly out of post-Mario PTSD, justified or otherwise) that Clowney doesn't have a motor. Are there better arguments to support this or is it just thinly veiled racism? Defensive line stats aren't particularly useful and teams are planning their entire offenses around staying away from Clowney, so his are down. Also people are stupid.
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Nov 19, 2013 16:19
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TheChirurgeon posted:I agree that Smith is just a serviceable fill-in, but my point was more that it isn't clear that Reid has been a great developer of young talent at the QB position. He never really got to work with Foles and when McNabb began to fall apart Reid moved on to Vick. I just don't know that Reid is the best coach for Manziel. True. I'm less happy about the idea of Andy Reid doing quarterback whispering than I am about getting some raw talent, even if it is a little shithead, since the Chiefs are terrible at drafting QB talent.
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Nov 19, 2013 16:32
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Henchman of Santa posted:Defensive line stats aren't particularly useful and teams are planning their entire offenses around staying away from Clowney, so his are down. Also people are stupid. Oh I know that stats can't be the same, but I meant if there was any legitimate claim that he played without a 'motor' last year, as he's been dealing with injuries/stomach virus/increased national perception this year.
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Nov 19, 2013 16:43
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bhsman posted:Oh I know that stats can't be the same, but I meant if there was any legitimate claim that he played without a 'motor' last year, as he's been dealing with injuries/stomach virus/increased national perception this year. no, it's not legitimate.
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Nov 19, 2013 16:48
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No Butt Stuff posted:True. I'm less happy about the idea of Andy Reid doing quarterback whispering than I am about getting some raw talent, even if it is a little shithead, since the Chiefs are terrible at drafting QB talent. Can you really be terrible if you haven't tried since missing out on Marino? On the other hand there haven't been a whole lot of guys available where they were picking who would have been worth it, so maybe they've actually been good in a way at identifying a lack of talent. Of course, later on they sign those guys or trade for them so...
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Nov 19, 2013 16:49
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So they haven't even tried for 30 years. Man, all those awesome playoff runs with leftover QBs have been great for us. God dammit, but finish fixing the holes. The playoffs are icing on the cake for us this year, since we all expected a rebuilding year with tops of 10 wins. That said, we should be able to continue this trend if we can just help our offense out a little. It's way better than it was, but it's not what it can be.
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Nov 19, 2013 16:52
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Question - for the bad teams, how much of them being bad is more due to things like coaching rather than talent? And I guess as a follow up - I'm guessing there's not a significant talent disparity, but are there teams which are talented enough to make up for bad coaching?
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Nov 19, 2013 17:10
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computer parts posted:Question - for the bad teams, how much of them being bad is more due to things like coaching rather than talent? For the Bucs, a lot. For the Jags, it's at least 70% talent issues.
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Nov 19, 2013 17:12
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