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The Raiders were so bad in the 2000's from a good mixture of both, but the coaching played a huge role. Oakland ran pretty much ONLY Man coverage due to Al Davis' insistence. If certain plays weren't called "right" he'd call down the field from the Owners box and make the calls himself. So yeah
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Nov 19, 2013 17:20
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computer parts posted:Question - for the bad teams, how much of them being bad is more due to things like coaching rather than talent? Coaching is a pretty broad term here, since it encompasses everything from "developing talent" to "creating a game plan to make the best use of personnel" to "clock management" to "making good on-the-field decisions." Some coaches can do one or two of these and not others, some coaches are good at all of them, some coaches are good at none of them. You also have to consider coaching staffs as well--Monte Kiffen is a terrible defensive coordinator, but Rod Marinelli is a great defensive line coach, for example. Teams can be talented enough to make up for bad clock management and on-the-field decisions, which is what I think you're referring to, but even a talented team will be terrible if it can't create effective plans to use its personnel.
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Nov 19, 2013 17:49
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For the Cowboys I'd say it's 60/40 coaching/talent. They have a handful of flashy A listers and no depth in the trenches, but would be still be like 7-3 instead of 5-5 if their DC wasn't a dinosaur, their OC's play sheet didn't read like the DSM-5 section on bipolar disorders, and if their HC wasn't such an awful gametime decision-maker.
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Nov 19, 2013 17:53
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I think the Cowboys should sign Jason Garrett to a long term extension - he's exactly what they need.
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Nov 19, 2013 18:48
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computer parts posted:Question - for the bad teams, how much of them being bad is more due to things like coaching rather than talent? I haven't been able to watch as much football as I'd like this season but for the Jags, it really comes down to a severe talent disparity. They have no A-list talent anymore now that MJD's legs have basically fallen off. The coaching might not be all that great either but I can't see Bradley and crew getting fired when he was forced to contend with Gabbert vs Henne for starting quarterback and a dire wasteland on defense, and there's no GM regime change looming on the horizon (like there was with Mularkey).
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Nov 19, 2013 19:15
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TheChirurgeon posted:Because Kolb, Kafka, Hall, and Feeley turned out so great under Reid's tutelage? This is kind of disingenuous because none of those guys are even close to the level of prospect Manziel is, and I say that as somebody who's not convinced about his ability to succeed at the NFL level at all.
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Nov 19, 2013 19:40
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Grozz Nuy posted:This is kind of disingenuous because none of those guys are even close to the level of prospect Manziel is, and I say that as somebody who's not convinced about his ability to succeed at the NFL level at all. I'll give you Hall, Feeley and Kafka, but Kolb was a second round talent.
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Nov 19, 2013 20:01
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Kolb was literally concussed in his first game as a week 1 Eagles starter so we'll never really know what he could have been. His career is basically defined by his body exploding every year. I dont really know what the point of bringing Kolb up is, though, because he, like Feeley, was traded for a 2nd round pick before really providing much of a sample size in Philadelphia.
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Nov 19, 2013 20:12
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Blitz7x posted:The Raiders were so bad in the 2000's from a good mixture of both, but the coaching played a huge role. Oakland ran pretty much ONLY Man coverage due to Al Davis' insistence. If certain plays weren't called "right" he'd call down the field from the Owners box and make the calls himself. So yeah I miss al
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Nov 19, 2013 23:21
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No Butt Stuff posted:I can't tell if I want this to happen or not... YES man, you do
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Nov 19, 2013 23:24
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Rap posted:I miss al Me too
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Nov 19, 2013 23:28
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computer parts posted:Question - for the bad teams, how much of them being bad is more due to things like coaching rather than talent? The genuinely awful teams usually have both bad coaching and talent. I think your second question depends on what success level you're looking for. I think a very talented team can perform well and win a fair amount of games with bad coaching, but generally there's going to be a cap, and you're going to have episodes of exposure. I think the line is distinction is pretty hard to make accurately, to the point where it is well beyond the average fan.
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Nov 20, 2013 00:00
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Manziel to the Browns. Let Norv work that magic.
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Nov 20, 2013 00:34
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With Manziel's perceived bust potential it would seem like tempting fate for the Browns to draft him. Besides, Michael Lombardi loves Hoyer. Somebody needs to talk me down on Mike Evans because I've been watching too much tape and the guy is beginning to look like Calvin Johnson to me.
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Nov 20, 2013 02:10
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Somebody needs to talk me down on Mike Evans because I've been watching too much tape and the guy is beginning to look like Calvin Johnson to me. I suspect he's a little slow by NFL standards, dude definitely knows how to go up and get the ball in coverage though based on that Alabama game.
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Nov 20, 2013 02:50
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The Puppy Bowl posted:Somebody needs to talk me down on Mike Evans because I've been watching too much tape and the guy is beginning to look like Calvin Johnson to me. I was thinking more Vincent Jackson.
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Nov 20, 2013 03:36
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That's probably a more honest comparison but Jackson is almost certainly faster. Its just that Evans has great jump ball ability and a decent talent for getting open despite the lack of top tier speed. How the hell did people know Johnson was going to be great when he played for Georgia Tech?
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Nov 20, 2013 03:39
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The Puppy Bowl posted:With Manziel's perceived bust potential it would seem like tempting fate for the Browns to draft him. I really want Evans on the Browns. He's apparently got great ball control skills and hands that he can fight for the ball and win.
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Nov 20, 2013 03:51
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The Puppy Bowl posted:That's probably a more honest comparison but Jackson is almost certainly faster. Its just that Evans has great jump ball ability and a decent talent for getting open despite the lack of top tier speed. When Calvin Johnson went to Georgia Tech, they weren't running the triple option. He also won the Biletnikoff award and the Paul Warfield trophy and was a two-time All-American and he ran a 4.3 40 at 6'5 and 230 lbs. and had great hands and ran great routes. Maybe the surest of sure things as you can get, save for the fact that the Lions were drafting him. E: Oh and he put up monster stats with a man named Reggie Ball throwing to him. This cannot be overstated.
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Nov 20, 2013 03:51
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Declan MacManus posted:When Calvin Johnson went to Georgia Tech, they weren't running the triple option. He also won the Biletnikoff award and the Paul Warfield trophy and was a two-time All-American and he ran a 4.3 40 at 6'5 and 230 lbs. and had great hands and ran great routes. Maybe the surest of sure things as you can get, save for the fact that the Lions were drafting him. Also he had Reggie Ball throwing to him and still managed to look good, so that's definitely a sure thing.
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Nov 20, 2013 03:52
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Mike Evans reminds me more of Larry Fitz. Either way he seems loving insanely talented and I would love to have him on the Bucs if we somehow end up with two firsts.
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Nov 20, 2013 04:01
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The one thing you don't need in Tampa Bay is WRs. Calvin Johnson is amazing but I think Larry Fitzgerald might have the best body control I've ever seen. Never has there been a tragedy like Fitzgerald on the 2012 Cardinals.
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Nov 20, 2013 04:09
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Noah posted:Manziel to the Browns. Let Norv work that magic. Norv and Chud would be the best fit for him. Exhibit a is what Chud did with Derek Anderson, talk about polishing a turd and exhibit b is Cam Newton a dude who'd started one year in college in a run and fun offense that didn't exactly resemble a pro-style system. Manziel would get killed if he ran around like Newton and Anderson did but he at least has that smiliar style albeit lacking quite the arm and movement (of the latter anyway).
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Nov 20, 2013 04:42
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The Puppy Bowl posted:How the hell did people know Johnson was going to be great when he played for Georgia Tech?
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Nov 20, 2013 04:51
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I figure it looked sort of liked how he's clowned NFL Football.
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Nov 20, 2013 04:52
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The Puppy Bowl posted:That's probably a more honest comparison but Jackson is almost certainly faster. Its just that Evans has great jump ball ability and a decent talent for getting open despite the lack of top tier speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXRqyjzyBRg
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Nov 20, 2013 05:00
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I figure it looked sort of liked how he's clowned NFL Football. I mean this is the ACC we're talking about
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Nov 20, 2013 05:08
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I unironically think the Cowboys would be a good fit for Johnny Manziel
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Nov 20, 2013 05:10
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Quest For Glory II posted:Just imagine the corners were on average 2-3 inches smaller and .5 seconds slower on the 40 than their NFL counterparts 1200 yards, 80 catches, and 15 TDs in college which translates to LOTS yards, TONS catches, SHITLOAD TDs in one of his seasons
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Nov 20, 2013 05:19
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LARGE THE HEAD posted:I unironically think the Cowboys would be a good fit for Johnny Manziel I think in a system that features a lot of roll outs, naked bootlegs and PA (Kind of like what Kubiak runs with the Texans) would be the most ideal system for Manziel. Maybe a few designed runs here and there, but no NFL offensive gameplan should revolve around Manziel picking up a lot of yardage rushing.
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Nov 20, 2013 06:48
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Declan MacManus posted:1200 yards, 80 catches, and 15 TDs in college which translates to LOTS yards, TONS catches, SHITLOAD TDs in one of his seasons Was Calvin a realistic candidate for heisman at GT? Seems like he could have been with a better QB
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Nov 20, 2013 06:51
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Wario Kart 64 posted:Was Calvin a realistic candidate for heisman at GT? Seems like he could have been with a better QB  quote:1 Troy Smith
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Nov 20, 2013 07:05
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Wario Kart 64 posted:Was Calvin a realistic candidate for heisman at GT? Seems like he could have been with a better QB No because of Reggie Ball and Chan Gailey, but everyone knew that he was amazing, especially going into his final season at GT. Andre 3000 giving sideline interviews during home games talking about how much he owned, which should be good enough for everyone Tech's offense underachieved that year (this all predated the Paul Johnson triple option)
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Nov 20, 2013 07:14
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Colt Brennan mention, take 5 shots.
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Nov 20, 2013 07:30
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Quest For Glory II posted:He finished 10th, behind Dwayne Jarrett
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Nov 20, 2013 07:44
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Mark Ingram. I would hope the voters have learned their lesson since then.
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Nov 20, 2013 09:22
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Was Ingram indisputably good that year? I didn't really start watching college football until late 2010, and even then didn't really get into it until 2011. By that point, he had been drafted by the Saints and my roommate despised him.
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Nov 20, 2013 09:24
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Ingram wasn't even the best RB on the Crimson Tide.
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Nov 20, 2013 09:37
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Ingram was far from the best player in college, but got the Heisman largely on narrative and Wins.
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Nov 20, 2013 14:08
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Declan MacManus posted:When Calvin Johnson went to Georgia Tech, they weren't running the triple option. He also won the Biletnikoff award and the Paul Warfield trophy and was a two-time All-American and he ran a 4.3 40 at 6'5 and 230 lbs. and had great hands and ran great routes. Maybe the surest of sure things as you can get, save for the fact that the Lions were drafting him. He's also pretty smart and graduated with a 3.5 gpa. He spent the summer before his senior year building solar-powered latrines in Bolivia to improve sanitation. There was literally nothing about Johnson not to like. E: Not to make it seem like I'm all about character issues or anything, just pointing out how sure a bet Johnson was.
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Nov 20, 2013 14:39
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