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sellouts posted:Thanks everyone, especially reindeer and MrNemo! We have a place nearby here that does a (I'm sure terribly inauthentic) mee goreng and laksa so I can't wait to try something hopefully a little more authentic. When will you be in Hong Kong? Can you please please please oh please bring me a bottle of kaya in your checked suit case? Last month I hosted for a Singapore goon and his Kaya got confiscated in the airport  And when he was in Hong Kong he basically just drank all day long with his friends. But he got too hung over for the dim sum lunch and stood me up. Anyways, if I can tolerate so much bull crap for a jar of kaya and host an internet stranger, I'm sure I can host for you fine. Just post dates ok?
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Nov 21, 2013 05:37
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Obviously the Thai solution to roti canai was to pour condensed milk and sugar all over it.
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Nov 21, 2013 05:39
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Hey Reindeer, do you have a regular favourite for Thai Ice tea?
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Nov 21, 2013 05:40
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I'm heading to Myanmar for most of December to work for their TV network. I hear that we are going to be staying in Yanmar pretty much the whole time. Any tips? TIA
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Nov 21, 2013 05:46
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caberham posted:Hey Reindeer, do you have a regular favourite for Thai Ice tea? \/\/\/ I just like how bad Thai bakers are, typically, though they're catering to local tastes, which favor horrifically bad baked goods. Like, instead of learning how to bake from the Khmer or Vietnamese, they just add more sugar and condensed milk. Admittedly, Roti here isn't that bad, but it's also not usually made by Thai people. All other baked goods are so lazy. Take the fruit breads, for example. Instead of mixing the fruit carefully into the dough, evening it out and baking the bread, they hollow out the middle, pour a shitload of fruit in and then bake it. It's so  In short, Thai food is great. Thai attempts at Western food usually aren't - though the assimilation of spaghetti into Thai food has worked pretty well.
ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 06:28
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ReindeerF posted:Obviously the Thai solution to roti canai was to pour condensed milk and sugar all over it. Bread = desert
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Nov 21, 2013 06:30
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Tomato Soup posted:Hey Finch, Ian wanted me to pass this message on to you. Of course he'd say that  In less happy news, I've heard that Tony, the owner of Koh Tao's Lotus Bar, died in his sleep some time in the past couple of days. It's quite unexpected so they're taking his body to Bangkok for an autopsy. I'll be interested to hear what killed him. Hopefully it's not the end of Lotus Bar as we know it. Although it's disgusting, it's a fun and endearing kind of disgusting. Finch! fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 06:44
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Trying to plan a SEA trip in December, taking about 16 days. So far my rough plan is to: Vietnam/Saigon, start there - spend around 2 days. Cambodia – travel via train or boat from Vietnam, spend probably 3-4 days. Thailand – Bangkok/Krabi, not sure how I’ll be traveling there but probably spend a week working down to Krabi. Malaysia – KL, max 2 days there stop over on the way to Singapore Singapore – fly out from there (half a day). Have I packed too many countries in? Mostly I’m looking at just sightseeing and eating my way from Vietnam to Singapore. I would if anyone has suggestion for things to see that are more Nature/outdoor related (but probably staying away from deep Jungle exploring). Thank you.
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Nov 21, 2013 06:48
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paberu posted:Have I packed too many countries in? Mostly I’m looking at just sightseeing and eating my way from Vietnam to Singapore. I would if anyone has suggestion for things to see that are more Nature/outdoor related (but probably staying away from deep Jungle exploring). Yes. Pick two at max. If you want to be tired and stare at the inside of a bus you could do that at home.
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Nov 21, 2013 07:02
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paberu posted:Vietnam/Saigon, start there - spend around 2 days.
That's a shitload of travel and not much time seeing anything in particular. Everyone enjoys travel differently, but my general advice over the years - and I think most of the thread would echo something similar - is to spend more time in fewer places. We Americans in particular have a tendency to pack wayyyy too much into an itinerary that's fully planned ahead of time instead of going to a few places and following their noses. If your goal really is just to eat a bunch of different local foods and see very little of a lot of places, it's do-able, but you're unlikely to get deep enough into any of the locales or cuisines to experience much local food at that rate. Also, traveling that much just is not fun at all, frankly. So, my advice would be to pick whatever country you want to visit most and add one neighboring country at most and do that. Unless you have flight restrictions in terms of arrival departure from your home country, I'd say, based on your itinerary, something like:
Personally, my trip would be Thailand/Cambodia, but others here are partial to Indonesia or Vietnam or what have you, so it all depends on what tops your list. My list there for a younger first-time visitor would be more like Bangkok/Siem Reap with maybe a side trip to either Northern Thailand or a beach/island area in Southern Thailand. ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 07:07
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I did a tour that was about as fast as you would possibly want to do any travel, for as long as you'd want to maintain that pace (unless you're an ADD teenager.) It was 19 days across two countries. You lose most of a day travelling between cities, especially if there's a border involved. It looks close together on a map, but roads can be super lovely, which means that a bus trip takes waaaaay longer in Cambodia than it would in North America. I'm also not sure how hosed up Vietnam is right now from the flooding. Your plan looks like more time spent exhausted and stressed than exploring. What little time you have in a town is going to be just enough to find out about that cool thing you don't have time to do before you scramble for the next leg of the trip. Okay, plans to leave Luang PrabazZzzZZ are being booked. How lovely is the night train from Chiang Mai to Bangkok? It's the only part I'm a little nervous about, other than all the flights because I hate airplanes on principle. I'm 100% on my own schedule here, so goonmeets would be rad. Chiang Mai: December 4th - 10th Bangkok: December 11th - 14th Saigon: December 14th - 17th Siem Reap: December 17th - 22nd Bangkok: December 22nd - 26th Vancouver: December 26th Lots of hopping around Air Asia because I am travelling alone, and too chicken to deal with public transport border-crossings by land. It's a bit of a ridiculous route, but lets me see Chiang Mai for the first time and get more time in a couple big cities as well as a second run at Angkor Wat. Decided not to stay in Asia this time around, though I wouldn't be unhappy to return at some point. Pixelante fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 07:29
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Unless it's stopped due to derailment or protests, the night train to Chiang Mai isn't so bad. Just book a berth big enough to sleep in. Of course, a first class sleeper is pretty close to the price of a flight and a second class sleeper is about half, so I'd just fly personally.
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Nov 21, 2013 07:46
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Pixelante posted:How lovely is the night train from Chiang Mai to Bangkok? It's not lovely at all - it's fairly cool (with aircon), comfortable, the food is reasonable and there's cold beer available. It does take forever (delays are common). Get a second class sleeper, but make sure you have a lower berth. There's also minimal room for large luggage - it goes under seats/bed but I'm fairly sure you can keep bags that don't fit there at the end of each carriage, with all the security that brings.
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Nov 21, 2013 07:49
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Ah yeah, if you have extra luggage you can also always check it with the cargo people. I forget what the prices are, but it's pretty cheap. For example, you can stick a mountain bike in the cargo car for 90 Baht (regardless of distance). Just tip them 10 Baht or something when you give them the bag so they remember you and take a bit of care with it.
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Nov 21, 2013 08:12
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If you do want a night train, be ready to book ahread online. The fastest pace of travelling is the shittiest. Chinese tour buses in Europe. Looking at their itinerary just makes me want to rip my eyes out. All they do is get off at a stop, snap photos, walk around 30 minutes then BACK ON TO THE BUS, NEXT DESTINATION! They can do something stupid like 10 European countries in a week  But then, my first time back packing in SEA I was in “travel high" mode. I carried 20 pounds of photo gear on my back and lugged a suitcase across Bangkok --> Siem Reap --> Saigon ---> Singapore in 16 days a mix of overland trains/bus/plane. I didn't get laid or hook up with anyone else like you guys, just went photo tripping with RingoR. I just woke up early, take a poo poo load of pictures, go site seeing, eat snacks along the way, and then partied at night with hostel people/goons and finished the night with a foot massage for the next 15 days. I was exhausted by the time I was in Singapore. A couple of pointers though,
Pixelante posted:Okay, plans to leave Luang PrabazZzzZZ are being booked. How lovely is the night train from Chiang Mai to Bangkok? It's the only part I'm a little nervous about, other than all the flights because I hate airplanes on principle. I'm 100% on my own schedule here, so goonmeets would be rad. What's wrong with airplanes? Just curious. Is it the security check bull poo poo and all the other down time involved? quote:Lots of hopping around Air Asia because I am travelling alone, and too chicken to deal with public transport border-crossings by land. It's a bit of a ridiculous route, but lets me see Chiang Mai for the first time and get more time in a couple big cities as well as a second run at Angkor Wat. Decided not to stay in Asia this time around, though I wouldn't be unhappy to return at some point. Air Asia hopping is fine, if you have already tried taking a few buses/trains then you don't really need to OVERLAND MY WAY ACROSS SEA LIKE A CHILDREN OF THE WORLD hippie. The only overland border bullshit I can think of is the stupid poipet fake border scam. But nowadays that seems to be more of a thing of the past. Vietnam, you practically need a visa beforehand anyways. I think if you have already been around the northern end of SEA being based in Laos, I suggest you should try hitting south or north. quote:Chiang Mai: December 4th - 10th 2 trips in BKK? Aiya, no time for Hong Kong Chiang Mai is nice and chill, but if you spent time in Laos I think you can skip it. I say fly to Saigon, eat a bunch of Bahn Mi and Bun Bo Hue, say hi to Viet goons, bus to PP, then bus to Siem Reap for 2 days of Angkor, then bus to Bangkok. More time in Cambodia since it's cheaper and in some regards cooler than Thailand.Saigon: December 4th-7th Phnom Phen: December 8th - 11th Siem Reap: December 12th - 17th Chiang Mai: December 18th - 22th Bangkok: December 23th -26th Vancouver: 26th If you want to go all out, just fly from Saigon --> Singapore, then take a bus northbound to KL, take another bus to Krabi, then fly back to BKK 7am --> 8am. Saigon : December 4th-7th Sing goon poor: December 8th- 11th Kuala Lumpur/Penang/Ipoh/Random Malaysian place: December 12th - 14th Krabi December 15th-20th Bangkok: December 21th-26th Vancouver: 26th You are going back to Vancouver  I'm so jealous. Please eat a Nanaimo bar in my name.
caberham fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 08:17
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There should just be a giant sticky post at the top of every page that says, "FEWER LOCATIONS, LESS TRAVEL" since this comes up every few pages.
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Nov 21, 2013 08:38
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We also need ICE IS FINE. FOOD IS FINE. STOP WHINING. GET A SIM CARD.
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Nov 21, 2013 09:01
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sellouts posted:I will be there for lunch / late lunch. I will also be in Singapore and Hong Kong so i would definitely like to try these Malay dishes while I am there. My plan is to head into town via KLIA Express and then use a taxi to maximize time to get places. If you're going to try Bukit Bintang there's really no need for a taxi, grab the monorail to Bukit Bintang station and you're about a 10 minute walk from Nagasari or Jalan Jalor. Might be more fun to wander around than Bangsar (I'd say Bukit Bintang has a better selection of restaurants while Bangsar has a selection of better restaurants) harder to get lost in certainly. Also if you do go to Nagasari there's a craft beer bar across the road (Taps). It's the only one I've found in SEA so far so if you like good beer it's a last chance to try it  Caberham: I am still in KL and am more than happy to attemtp food touring. Shamefully the best place I've found for beef rendang so far was a stall in the Pavilion mall food court. I'm sure there are places with better atmosphere that are at least as good but I haven't found them yet. Bijan is apparently a slightly more upmarket Malay restaurant that a friend visisted for a cooking course that does really good Malay food. Annoyingly my job is rubbish when it comes to days off and I am working Saturday and Sunday this week so if you're around I'm happy to do a mini-goon meet or dinner or something but can't do a proper food tour (which is a shame because it's been a pain finding people to go food touring with).
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Nov 21, 2013 09:32
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caberham posted:When will you be in Hong Kong? Can you please please please oh please bring me a bottle of kaya in your checked suit case? Last month I hosted for a Singapore goon and his Kaya got confiscated in the airport Will try to remember kaya. I am there I think 25-30 of December but my ticket is flexible by nature so I can shift dates pretty easily on the fly. MrNemo thank you so much for the advice. I plan on following it exactly and can't wait to get over there.
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Nov 21, 2013 09:47
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Thanks for the invite MrNemo. Do you have wechat? Let me add you to our China wechat group, there's an Ex-Beijing from Singapore goon working in KL. Maybe we can do a mini meet  sellouts posted:Will try to remember kaya. I am there I think 25-30 of December but my ticket is flexible by nature so I can shift dates pretty easily on the fly. Great. PM me your flight details and dates. You are not travelling alone right? If it's the evening I can pick you up from the airport. So happy, Kaya~~~Kaya~~~Kaya~~~Kaya~~~Kaya~~~ Kaya~~~  Oh and remember to check that in. Can't hand carry it.
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Nov 21, 2013 10:19
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Pixelante posted:It looks close together on a map, but roads can be super lovely, which means that a bus trip takes waaaaay longer in Cambodia than it would in North America. Case in point: me and my friend left our house at 6.30am in Siem Reap and arrived in Ban Chang (south of Pattaya) at 7pm. That's 12 and a half hours to travel 400km, meaning we managed an average speed of 32kph. And we got a minibus from the border to Ban Chang and asked for a room at the first hotel we saw; if we'd got a government bus and had a reservation at a specific hotel (meaning we'd have to have got a tuk tuk/taxi as well) you can add at least three hours onto that, if not four or five. Buses are fine and will get your virtually anywhere but when you get on one at dawn you have to fully accept the fact that you won't be doing anything but sitting on your arse playing sudoku until well after the sun has gone down. Tomato Soup posted:e-visa I expect we're probably going to fly back to SR as I can't see my brother wanting to do the bus bullshit. The e-visa costs $28 whilst just getting a visa at the airport is $25. They give you the paperwork on the plane to fill in so you literally just do it then and hand your passport and money over; I believe with an e-visa you have to give your passport in anyway to get a stamped visa so you're not saving any time at all. The only difference is the passport photo bullshit but SR airport are so efficient they just outright ask you for the $1 bribe and there is no hassle whatsoever, unlike Poipet who might ask you for $5 or 60 baht or 100 euros or the hair of a gypsy or god only knows what. Infact the only reason I would get an e-visa is so I know my visa won't be refused. This can happen for business visas but for tourist visas? This is Cambodia we're talking about, you just give them another ten bucks.
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Nov 21, 2013 10:46
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My experience of Cambodia was Phnonm Penh it was about $20 for VOA at the airport vs. $28 for the e-visa. On the other hand I just took a pic on my phone instead of finding somewhere to do passport photos and skipped the 10 minute queue for the VOA desk (you need to print out an e-visa but they'll just stamp it at the immigration desk). Basically if $3-8 isn't anything for you or getting passport photos is a pain the e-visa might be worth it but don't worry too much about it.
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Nov 21, 2013 11:35
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I should have specified, I was going to do an e visa if I took the bus because gently caress dealing with border agents who know you're pressed for time and try to get you to pay more. I got away with just paying $20 at a notoriously corrupt border by playing dumb and not being pressed for time. Vietnam visas are around $60 in Cambodia, right? I'm planning on dropping off my passport with an agent while I go see the temples in SR, swing by PP to say hi to friends after I get my passport back and see stuff I missed then take my last bus back to Saigon 
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Nov 21, 2013 11:49
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caberham posted:When will you be in Hong Kong? Can you please please please oh please bring me a bottle of kaya in your checked suit case? Last month I hosted for a Singapore goon and his Kaya got confiscated in the airport Dude 
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Nov 21, 2013 12:35
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caberham posted:You are going back to Vancouver Hong Kong got killed by the crazy-high cost of flying from there to Siem Reap. I would have had to re-jig the whole plan to loop back another way, and the point was the revisit places I didn't see enough of on the first pass. I'm not looking forward to the reverse culture shock of getting back to Vancouver Island in the depths of the coldest, wettest part of the year... but I am looking forward to New Years on Salt Spring Island with a pack of my nearest and dearest. Oh by the way, the Canadians who own Joma Cafe in Luang Prabang have Nanaimo bars in the dessert case every day. I was like "hey, I live a few hours from Nanaimo! Those bars are named for a place I've been!" (Shut up it was the closest I'd gotten to a Canadian in a solid month and I went stupid.) And the guy behind counter was like, "Sabaidee! The only English I understand is 3/4ths of the menu!" because Laos. Pixelante fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 12:49
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Tomato Soup posted:Vietnam visas are around $60 in Cambodia, right? About $60 if I recall yeah. Normally takes a day to process, maybe two.
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Nov 21, 2013 13:07
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The other reason to get an evisa is if your passport is being eaten up by Cambodian visas, your last one-year is expired and you're sick of getting new pages added.
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Nov 21, 2013 13:54
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Not everywhere in SE Asia but this seems to fit for a lot of placesFinch! posted:South East Asia Megathread - Although it's disgusting, it's a fun and endearing kind of disgusting.
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Nov 21, 2013 13:59
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ReindeerF posted:
I just KNEW you'd ditch Saigon from that list.  Don't listen to him, just go to Saigon, Bangkok and Koh Tao and enjoy the trip.Pixelante posted:I'm not looking forward to the reverse culture shock of getting back to Vancouver Island in the depths of the coldest, wettest part of the year... but I am looking forward to New Years on Salt Spring Island with a pack of my nearest and dearest. Moving from Vietnam to loving Montreal right when the winter starts was the most depressing thing I've ever done. It's -4C right now, drat. I already forget what 30C all year round feels like. Ugh.
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Nov 21, 2013 14:05
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Senso posted:I just KNEW you'd ditch Saigon from that list. Senso posted:Moving from Vietnam to loving Montreal right when the winter starts was the most depressing thing I've ever done. It's -4C right now, drat. I already forget what 30C all year round feels like. Ugh. eviljelly posted:Not everywhere in SE Asia but this seems to fit for a lot of places ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 14:15
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ReindeerF posted:Obviously what I wanted to say was, "Or, if you like aggressive people who harass you and constantly try to jack up prices to insane levels, and if you enjoy twenty varieties of grilled meat on rice or rat pate sandwiches made with good bread, there's always Saigon!" Yeah! And if you want to get harassed by trannies in drag and get shived by a mob of old pedophiles, go to Bangkok! ReindeerF posted:And you've got poutine! The only good thing about this goddamn place. Well that and the 3,826 microbreweries.
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Nov 21, 2013 14:23
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Hey, that's libel. It's the ladyboys who do the shivving, not the old sex tourists.
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Nov 21, 2013 14:33
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My plans for this year were just destoyed by my employer Only good thing about this is that i can use all my paid vacation time in March, 5-6 weeks  (thanks Finland the communist utopia with paid vacation time)I'm thinking about 2 weeks just chilling in for example Koh Tao after not having a proper holiday for a year. My plan is to snorkle and relax for the first two weeks, no hassle or travel days. That leaves me 3-4 weeks in Cambodia/Laos. I have no idea about either country, so it would be cool to get some pointers where to go and what to see. I'm not a big partyer but i do like to drink a few beers and talk to different people. Also i really like live music. I have never been in Angor Wat so that atleast is on the list. I will most likely buy a Helsinki-Bangkok-Helsinki ticket as soon as there is good deals around. Thanks
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Nov 21, 2013 14:43
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Barfolemew posted:That leaves me 3-4 weeks in Cambodia/Laos. I have no idea about either country, so it would be cool to get some pointers where to go and what to see. I'm not a big partyer but i do like to drink a few beers and talk to different people. Also i really like live music. If you're cool with the crippled party scene in Luang Prabang, I've been here for seven weeks and I still love it. I'm just bored with volunteering and ready to go explore again. There is awesome food, charming culture, friendly people, some wonderful bars to hang out in and play pool, and lots of treks that last anywhere from half a day to a week. The most popular three with teachers here are the overnight hilltribe treks into the mountains (enjoy leaches!), half-day rice planting adventure, and riding/washing elephants at Tad Sae Falls. There are all kinds of things, though. One company does nothing but hardcore motorbiking off road, which makes them pretty much the only cyclists you see around here who wear helmets and safety gear. http://www.laos-adventures.com/ They're so regularly used by our folks that some of my friends are in their promo shots.
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Nov 21, 2013 14:56
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Pixelante posted:If you're cool with the crippled party scene in Luang Prabang, I've been here for seven weeks and I still love it. I'm just bored with volunteering and ready to go explore again. There is awesome food, charming culture, friendly people, some wonderful bars to hang out in and play pool, and lots of treks that last anywhere from half a day to a week. The most popular three with teachers here are the overnight hilltribe treks into the mountains (enjoy leaches!), half-day rice planting adventure, and riding/washing elephants at Tad Sae Falls. There are all kinds of things, though. One company does nothing but hardcore motorbiking off road, which makes them pretty much the only cyclists you see around here who wear helmets and safety gear. Thanks! Seems pretty awesome, i'm also a biker so that off road thing sounds really good. I usually don't dare to drive anything bigger than a scooter in SEA.
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Nov 21, 2013 15:02
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Barfolemew posted:My plans for this year were just destoyed by my employer Angkor Wat is a definite must-see if you've never been before. Ideally it's good to get a 3 days pass to the temples so you're not trying to fit everything into a single day - the main temples can all be done in one day, but it's fairly exhausting. Better to spend a few hours each morning at the temples, then the rest of the day relaxing. Siem reap is obviously pretty touristy but it's a nice little town. Phnom Penh has a tonne of bars and restaurants for its size, and there's quite often live bands playing at places (admittedly of varying quality). It's very easy just to meet a bunch of people and get dragged out for drinks. The main sights are the Palace and S21/The Killing Fields, although it's kinda fun just exploring the city and the markets etc, or renting a bike and heading out into the countryside for the day. Other than that, my favourite getaway places are Kampot and Kep on the south coast - nothing fancy, just two quiet towns with pretty surroundings and awesome food. They make for a nice change of pace coming from PP. EDIT: For Laos, my favourite place I visited was Si Phan Don in the south, but that was 5 years ago so for all I know it's a backpacker ghetto nowadays. Tytan fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 16:04
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I'll put in my vote for Cambodia, but wouldn't at all dispute a trip to Laos. I love Phnom Penh to pieces, probably my favorite city on Earth, but Tytan's right that Angkor is a must see. Protip: If you go after 17:00 and buy a one day pass, you can go that evening and the next day on the same one-day pass. It's not on Pub Street, but Velkommen is where I stay and Edvin, the owner, is a great (Norwegian) guy who's lived there for a long time and knows the ins and outs. If you're a runner, he'll take you for a cool run around the temple walls as well. Tytan posted:Phnom Penh has a tonne of bars and restaurants for its size, and there's quite often live bands playing at places (admittedly of varying quality). It's very easy just to meet a bunch of people and get dragged out for drinks. The main sights are the Palace and S21/The Killing Fields, although it's kinda fun just exploring the city and the markets etc, or renting a bike and heading out into the countryside for the day. EDIT: I read the Blue Pumpkin guy died and his obituary sounded like he had a phenomenal life. On the plus side, maybe this means no more lovely Blue Pumpkins, heh. ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 16:07
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I still think the palace makes for a nice easy trip for a couple of hours, and S21 is an eye-opener and worth a visit for anyone into history. But yeah I agree that seeing the actual city is much more interesting. Oh also, it's kinda cliche, but go for a late afternoon beer at the FCC. ReindeerF posted:then go for dumplings at Zeppelin and ask the man to play Mother by Danzig. The latter is a requirement of PNH visits.
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Nov 21, 2013 16:25
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Totally agree on FCC.
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Nov 21, 2013 16:31
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Phnom Penh is definitely on the list and i plan to spend enough time there. Laos is debatable, i might end up spending the rest of the holiday in Cambodia, and check out Laos on the next trip. I'll try my best to minimize the travel times and keep the schedule open. Last time i did 4 countries in 5 weeks and in retrospect that sucked. Waaaay too much travel days and expensive as poo poo due to all the flights that we had to take. Im on a work my rear end of for 10 months to escape for 2 schedule. Maybe i should start to find work out there somewhere, only problem is that im starting to near 38 years old. One particular place that i'm interested in is: Broken Heart guesthouse in Koh Rong. It's run by a finnish ex punk rocker, so i have to check that place out. edit: and thanks everyone again
Barfolemew fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 21, 2013 |
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Nov 21, 2013 16:33
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