A return of Fascism in Europe?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > A return of Fascism in Europe?

KazigluBey: Oct 30, 2011; boner

New urban guerrilla group claims murders of Golden Dawn members

quote:

A previously unknown urban guerrilla group calling itself Militant Popular Revolutionary Forces has claimed responsibility for the murders of two Golden Dawn members on November 1.

Zougla.gr news website said that it received a phone call at 4.50 p.m. on Saturday in which the caller said a memory stick had been placed in an envelope that was left in a rubbish bag at the Kaisariani rifle range, where a monument to more than 200 Greeks executed by Nazi occupiers stands today.

The proclamation begins with a quote from Jos� Buenaventura Durruti Dumange - a key figure in the Spanish anarchist movement in the 1920s and 30 - that claims no government truly wants to combat fascism.

The authors of the proclamation say that the two Golden Dawn members, 22-year-old Manolis Kapelonis and 26-year-old Giorgos Fountoulis, were killed in a �political execution� in revenge for the murder of rapper Pavlos Fyssas, who was stabbed to death by another supporter of the Neo-Nazi party, Giorgos Roupakias.

The proclamation also dedicates the murders to immigrants and says that the killings are just the start of the group�s campaign against Golden Dawn and its members.

Police did not immediately comment on the note�s authenticity.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 02:52

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# ? May 24, 2024 08:18

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

For what it's worth, there's a lot of suspicion regarding the proclamation because of how it's written, and it's very possible it's a manufactured document.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 08:26

KoldPT: Oct 9, 2012

Someone shot up the HQ of french lefty newspaper Lib�ration. Yay Le Pen :sigh:

# ? Nov 18, 2013 14:42

TheIllestVillain: Dec 27, 2011; Sal, Wyoming's not a country

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24985779

quote:

The suspect is said to be between 40 and 45, shaven-headed and overweight.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 16:18

More Later: Mar 31, 2010

KoldPT posted:

Someone shot up the HQ of french lefty newspaper Lib�ration. Yay Le Pen

And a major bank. And BFMTV's HQ on friday.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 16:21

Zohar: Jul 14, 2013; Good kitty

YF-23 posted:

For what it's worth, there's a lot of suspicion regarding the proclamation because of how it's written, and it's very possible it's a manufactured document.

Manufactured by whom? Is this strategy of tension v2?

# ? Nov 18, 2013 16:42

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Zohar posted:

Manufactured by whom? Is this strategy of tension v2?

Who knows? Maybe it's some group looking to stoke the conflict, or maybe it's just some random idiots trying to stir up poo poo for a laugh. After all, the strangest groups take credit for poo poo they didn't do for all sorts of reasons.

The important thing to determine first would be whether the document is more likely to be manufactured than not, because that directly affects where you're most likely to find the authors.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 17:38

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

Zohar posted:

Manufactured by whom? Is this strategy of tension v2?

I don't know. The state/the police is a potential manufacturer, especially with that timing (right before 17/11), the idea being that they'd have an excuse to put down protests (though I didn't hear anything about that, the protests yesterday appear to have been peaceful as far as I've heard). In the end, who knows? A lot of things about the proclamation was iffy, for example some language was lifted almost verbatim from far-right/nationalist texts.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 18:06

KazigluBey: Oct 30, 2011; boner

Leftist militants claim Golden Dawn killings as rally honours 1973 uprising

quote:

Thousands of Greeks, marking the 40th anniversary of the Athens Polytechnic uprising � an event that would trigger the end of military rule in Greece � took to the streets on Sunday after socialist militants claimed responsibility for the murder of two members of the extremist Golden Dawn party.

As demonstrators prepared to commemorate the symbolic date, a previously unknown group of anti-establishment leftists raised the political temperature by vowing to relocate the far-rightists to "the dustbin of history".

"The Militant People's Revolutionary Forces assumes responsibility for the political executions of � the neo-Nazis," said the gang in an 18-page proclamation sent to a local news portal.

"The armed attack-response � is the starting point of the people's campaign to send the neo-Nazi scum of Golden Dawn where they belong, the dustbin of history."

Amid heightened fears of escalating violence in the debt-stricken country, the assailants described the drive-by shootings as retribution for the fatal stabbing of Pavlos Fyssas, a leftwing rapper killed by a self-confessed Golden Dawn supporter in September. And, in chilling language, warned more attacks would follow.

"The revolutionary movement has to proceed with the material destruction of the infrastructure of Golden Dawn and in a coordinated [fashion] attack those who belong to it � their heads should be cracked open with a hammer, their hands cut off, by way of example, with a sickle."

Some 8,000 policemen were seconded to patrol the boulevards of Athens as a sea of Greeks paid tribute to those killed when the military junta sent a tank crashing through the polytechnic's gates to repress a student revolt.

At least 24 are believed to have died in the bloody suppression with most of the casualties among the 150,000 non-student civilians who had converged on the streets outside the campus in an unprecedented display of opposition to the regime.

For a nation that has become increasingly polarised in the midst of economic crisis, the event is a defining moment, hallowed in the minds of many as the catalyst of the collapse of seven years of military rule only decades after a brutal left-right civil war.

"The mood this year is very similar to 1973 when there was a feeling that the junta was disintegrating and people were full of expectation," said Panos Garganas, a prominent leftist and editor of the newspaper Workers Solidarity.

"After five years of worsening levels of austerity and poverty there is a sense that things are coming to an end, that the situation cannot continue," he told the Guardian as he marched through the streets. "We give the government six months at most."

Dissatisfaction with an administration called to enforce deeply unpopular spending cuts in return for international funds to prop up the country's moribund economy has been reflected in rising support for the radical left main opposition Syriza party.

A poll released on Saturday showed the neo-fascist Golden Dawn also gaining in strength in the aftermath of the November 16th attack, which saw two of its members gunned down outside a local party branch in Athens.

Despite accusations of being a criminal organisation � and a government crackdown that has seen its leader and two other deputies imprisoned pending trial � backing for the anti-immigrant group grew by 2.2 percentage points over the past month. With 8.8% of the vote, the far-rightists remained Greece's third biggest political force according to the survey conducted by Alcofor for the weekly Proto Thema newspaper.

As in 1973, radio broadcasts were boomed from the campus on Sunday � only this time by fired employees from the former public broadcaster ERT denouncing the belt-tightening policies of prime minister Antonis Samaras and his two-party coalition.

The protest march, which traditionally ends at the US embassy to denounce Washington's controversial support for the regime, followed two days of unusually poignant commemorations at the polytechnic, with politicians, unionists and ordinary Greeks laying wreaths at the site.

"With our country basically under foreign occupation, the slogans and lessons of the uprising are as relevant today as they were back then," said Christina Minassa, selling leftist literature at a stall outside the campus. "The battle against fascism goes on. In Greece those on the left have suffered greatly."

President Karolos Papoulias, who has become an increasingly vocal critic of the austerity meted out by the EU and IMF in exchange for aid, called the student rebellion "deeply didactic".

"The way in which they laid claim to the freedom of all of us � is deeply didactic," he said. "Their battle was decisive and dynamic but peaceful, they didn't promote violence, they suffered violence," he said in a clear reference to the resurgence of political violence now haunting the country.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 18:16

Zohar: Jul 14, 2013; Good kitty

Cerebral Bore posted:

Who knows? Maybe it's some group looking to stoke the conflict, or maybe it's just some random idiots trying to stir up poo poo for a laugh. After all, the strangest groups take credit for poo poo they didn't do for all sorts of reasons.

The important thing to determine first would be whether the document is more likely to be manufactured than not, because that directly affects where you're most likely to find the authors.

You're not wrong, but if as YF-23 is suggesting there's a possibility the state is involved then it's a pretty alarming development. (Not that we're lacking for those.)

# ? Nov 19, 2013 02:50

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Local elections in Denmark today. A literal neo-nazi party campaigning for ethnic cleansing is on the ballot in six municipalities, including Copenhagen.

# ? Nov 19, 2013 14:53

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

Zohar posted:

You're not wrong, but if as YF-23 is suggesting there's a possibility the state is involved then it's a pretty alarming development. (Not that we're lacking for those.)

I'm not sure why would they do that, though. The most reasonable strategy in that case would be to implicate the leftists into something the society unequivocally would declare horrible. Killing of two prominent neonazis, as the cited article shows, made at least some people hopeful and expecting something more.

# ? Nov 19, 2013 20:57

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

Gantolandon posted:

I'm not sure why would they do that, though. The most reasonable strategy in that case would be to implicate the leftists into something the society unequivocally would declare horrible. Killing of two prominent neonazis, as the cited article shows, made at least some people hopeful and expecting something more.

How do you mean "prominent"? They were entirely unimportant other than being members of GD.

# ? Nov 20, 2013 00:12

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

YF-23 posted:

How do you mean "prominent"? They were entirely unimportant other than being members of GD.

My mistake then. I'm not sure why, but I thought they were prominent since I first read about this case.

# ? Nov 20, 2013 01:39

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Luckily the neo-nazi Party of the Danes, which as I mentioned favours total ethnic cleansing and unconstitutionally revoking citizenship from all non-whites, establishing white-only schools and other forms of apartheid until that can be achieved, only got about 1,400 votes in total across five municipalities. It's still a frightening tendency and I shudder to think what they could muster nationally. The Danish People's Party looks to be getting their first mayor in addition to a sizable increase in votes in most places.

# ? Nov 20, 2013 02:01

Mans: Sep 14, 2011; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

SplitSoul posted:

Luckily the neo-nazi Party of the Danes, which as I mentioned favours total ethnic cleansing and unconstitutionally revoking citizenship from all non-whites, establishing white-only schools and other forms of apartheid until that can be achieved, only got about 1,400 votes in total across five municipalities. It's still a frightening tendency and I shudder to think what they could muster nationally. The Danish People's Party looks to be getting their first mayor in addition to a sizable increase in votes in most places.

Can you post the general results? Who were the winners and who were the losers?

# ? Nov 21, 2013 01:06

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Mans posted:

Can you post the general results? Who were the winners and who were the losers?

Social Democrats 29,5% (-1,1), 774 mandates (-27).
Liberals 26,6% (+1.8), 746 mandates (+67).
Danish People's Party 10.1% (+2), 256 mandates (+70).
Conservatives 8.6% (-2.4), 205 mandates (-57).
Unity List 6.9% (+4.6),119 mandates (+105).
Socialist People's Party 5.6% (-8.9), 115 mandates (-225).
Social Liberals 4.8% (+1.1), 62 mandates (+12).
Liberal Alliance 2.9% (+2.6), 33 mandates (+32).
Others 5% (+0.4), 114 mandates (-1).

Huge leap forward for the Unity List, who were barely present locally a few years ago. They're siphoning votes primarily from disillusioned Social Democrats and especially Socialists, who've managed to bungle their first ever inclusion in a cabinet spectacularly; there's basically no longer any meaningful distinction between the two parties and their neo-liberal reforms are massively unpopular to the left of centre. A recent school reform and subsequent lockout also meant pretty much every public school teacher abandoning them in disgust. The Social Democrats had their worst parliamentary election in over a century in 2011, despite nominally winning the Prime Ministership. This is just further punishment and there's no way they're winning the next election, even if they change their tune significantly and jettison their incompetent leaders.

The Danish People's Party didn't manage to get their first mayor, but they did score a councilman seat in Copenhagen. I'm terrified to see which area of policy they'll be ruining in the coming years.

On the upside, a proudly workshy welfare recipient and minor tabloid celeb nicknamed "Lazy Robert" campaigning for universal basic income managed to beat out the neo-nazis in Copenhagen. I guess that's something.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 03:52

Bates: Jun 15, 2006

And here's a map of DPP votes by municipality. The distribution is pretty much the same as last time and at the Folketing elections.

Quick close the bridges the islands are leaking terribleness :supaburn:

# ? Nov 21, 2013 09:17

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Hope you don't mind SplitSoul, but I added some descriptions of the parties, just to make it easier to get an overview.

SplitSoul posted:

Social Democrats 29,5% (-1,1), 774 mandates (-27). Leadership consists of avowed neo-liberals, and no one below dares do anything about them.
Liberals 26,6% (+1.8), 746 mandates (+67). Still liberals, less able to gently caress us over due to tribalism.
Danish People's Party 10.1% (+2), 256 mandates (+70). Home of former Social Democrats, still racist as gently caress.
Conservatives 8.6% (-2.4), 205 mandates (-57). The economic side of the Republicans.
Unity List 6.9% (+4.6),119 mandates (+105). General socialist list, from old-school Social Democrats to Stalinists. As united as the name might suggest.
Socialist People's Party 5.6% (-8.9), 115 mandates (-225). Like the Social Democrats, except perhaps less committed to neo-liberalism. (They still went along with it because they love power though.)
Social Liberals 4.8% (+1.1), 62 mandates (+12). Terrible people, great politicians. For neo-liberalism and gay marriage.
Liberal Alliance 2.9% (+2.6), 33 mandates (+32). American style libertarians, many candidates supported the idea that criminals should lose their voting rights, literally citing Viking Age thralldom as their inspiration.
Others 5% (+0.4), 114 mandates (-1).

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Nov 21, 2013

# ? Nov 21, 2013 11:31

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

So what would be the spectrum economically (Unity List...Danish People's Party (a guess), Socialist People's Party, Social Democrats, Social Liberals, Liberals, Conservatives, Liberal Alliance)?

It sounds like most of those parties except maybe the Unity list could find a place in the American political spectrum if they "Americanized" their party names (Libertarian Alliance! American Patriot Party! Progressive People's Party!).

# ? Nov 21, 2013 12:52

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Ardennes posted:

So what would be the spectrum economically (Unity List...Danish People's Party (a guess), Socialist People's Party, Social Democrats, Social Liberals, Liberals, Conservatives, Liberal Alliance)?

As I mentioned, there is some dissent in the lower ranks of some of the parties, but you're pretty much right. From Left to Right:

Unity List: As mentioned, socialists of various types. Official goal: Abolition of capitalism through a democratic revolution.

Danish People's Party: Social Democrats that hate immigrants.

Socialist People's Party: Less in favor of the working class than being in power, will happily do whatever the Social Democrats tell them.

Social Democrats/Social Liberals/liberals/Conservatives: Pro-austerity neo-liberals, there's really very little difference economically. Actively warn each other about possible political scandals/criminal investigations to protect the status quo.

Liberal Alliance: The usual right-libertarians.

Ardennes posted:

It sounds like most of those parties except maybe the Unity list could find a place in the American political spectrum if they "Americanized" their party names (Libertarian Alliance! American Patriot Party! Progressive People's Party!).

Yeah, they wouldn't even need to do anything but translate a few terms that would cause confusion in the US, and replace any mention of Danish/Denmark with American/America.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 13:24

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

From some Unity List bragging about their results on the Party of the European Left's Facebook page:

quote:

Yesterday�s Danish municipal and regional election was a historical success for the Red-Green Alliance (RGA). We are now a nationwide party with representatives in all regions and corners of Denmark. With a raise in votes from the previous election in 2009 from 2,3 % to 6,9 %. The RGA now have seats in 79 municipalities and all regions of Denmark instead of only a presence in 10 municipalities and one representative in the capital region around Copenhagen. The total number of city councilors has gone up from 14 to 119 and from one regional elected to 15.

Furthermore the results grants the RGA a seat in the National Organization of Municipalities which negotiate the economy of the municipalities with the government and has been tolerating one austerity budget after the other even though it previously had a majority consisting of the Social Democrats (SD) and the Socialist People�s Party (SPP). This gives the RGA a change to break the austerity consensus.

The local election result is the best for the RGA since our founding in 1989. It was far better than our aim in the election campaign which was to have 100 city councilors and between 5-6 percent of the votes. Actually the result was the best result of the Danish leftwing to the left of the SPP since the post-war municipal election in 1946.

In Copenhagen the RGA became the second biggest party with 19,5 % of the votes. The SD became the biggest with 27,8 % of the votes. During the late night negotiations the RGA in Copenhagen got the important seat as mayor for the Construction and Technical Affairs Department which give us an opportunity to prioritize a green and job creating path for the development of the Danish capital.

Obviously this is a PR release from the party and the triumphalism is probably premature. Still, while I only occasionally follow Scandinavian politics, this does actually seem like something of a big deal. It's not a leap towards power or anything, but breaking out of the margins and into the mainstream in an established democracy is pretty hard and it looks like they're over that hurdle. Unless they gently caress it up, of course, since with over a hundred people elected there are bound to be some crazies.

In any case it restores a tiny bit of hope to see the radical left make more gains than the radical right somewhere :denmark:

# ? Nov 21, 2013 14:14

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Guildencrantz posted:

From some Unity List bragging about their results on the Party of the European Left's Facebook page:

Obviously this is a PR release from the party and the triumphalism is probably premature. Still, while I only occasionally follow Scandinavian politics, this does actually seem like something of a big deal. It's not a leap towards power or anything, but breaking out of the margins and into the mainstream in an established democracy is pretty hard and it looks like they're over that hurdle. Unless they gently caress it up, of course, since with over a hundred people elected there are bound to be some crazies.

In any case it restores a tiny bit of hope to see the radical left make more gains than the radical right somewhere

It's great and all, but the fact that we're basically just cannibalizing supposed leftists parties should be cause for concern. Obviously the policies these parties have supported mean they don't deserve leftist support, but it would be much better if the rise in support was due to an actual surge in support of socialism, and not just because they picked up disaffected social-democrats. I suppose the fact that people were willing to vote for the "Dangerous communists" is a good sign though, but it's really seeing the silver lining in a lovely situation. I suppose that's about what we can hope for in the current political climate though.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 14:50

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Ahahahaha, the Danish People's Party gave up their bid for mayor in the suburb of Hvidovre and supported a Social Democrat after tough negotiations. Why? In addition to the vice mayor seat, they received a guarantee that public childcare would serve "traditional Danish food" (that's code for LOTS OF PORK). This follows an embarrassing national debate where people lost their minds over the fact that less than 0.1% of public childcare institutions, ones that have a large Muslim clientele, democratically elected to remove pork from the menu to save on expenses. The Prime Minister weighed in on the matter as well, saying that pork must reign supreme.

I should probably also correct my earlier post about the neo-nazis. They received 1,295 municipal votes in five municipalities, but also 5,487 votes in the Capital Region for a candidate that received a conviction for racism for the following statement on his radio show:

"There are only two possible ways to react if we want to prevent these terrorist bombings: Either by driving out all foreign Mohammedans from Western Europe, so they cannot plant bombs, or by exterminating the fanatic Mohammedans, that is to say, killing a sizable part of the Mohammedan immigrants. It is of course preferable to drive out all the foreign Mohammedans from Western Europe, because it is the humane solution. It is therefore repatriation we must choose."

# ? Nov 21, 2013 16:01

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

SplitSoul posted:

Ahahahaha, the Danish People's Party gave up their bid for mayor in the suburb of Hvidovre and supported a Social Democrat after tough negotiations. Why? In addition to the vice mayor seat, they received a guarantee that public childcare would serve "traditional Danish food" (that's code for LOTS OF PORK). This follows an embarrassing national debate where people lost their minds over the fact that less than 0.1% of public childcare institutions, ones that have a large Muslim clientele, democratically elected to remove pork from the menu to save on expenses. The Prime Minister weighed in on the matter as well, saying that pork must reign supreme.

Pork barrel politics obviously have a different definition in Denmark.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 16:23

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

A Buttery Pastry posted:

It's great and all, but the fact that we're basically just cannibalizing supposed leftists parties should be cause for concern. Obviously the policies these parties have supported mean they don't deserve leftist support, but it would be much better if the rise in support was due to an actual surge in support of socialism, and not just because they picked up disaffected social-democrats. I suppose the fact that people were willing to vote for the "Dangerous communists" is a good sign though, but it's really seeing the silver lining in a lovely situation. I suppose that's about what we can hope for in the current political climate though.

Baby steps, dude, radical parties won't be sweeping votes from conservatives any time soon and we all know it. Meanwhile, social democrats everywhere are wrecking their credibility with the austerity programs, which pretty much leaves votes lying on the ground. It's the task of any socialist/hard-left party to grab them, much like the anti-immigrant right are doing with the more conservative parts of the former SD base. It's unfortunately not possible to stand up to neoliberalism without laying to rest the shambling undead corpse of social democracy, and especially without finally breaking its hegemony on the left.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 16:41

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

To illustrate how utterly divorced from reality our Prime Minister is, here are the election results for the Social Democrats under her rule:

Municipal election 2005, 34.3% (-0.1)
Parliamentary election 2007, 25.5% (-0.4)
European Parliament election 2009, 21.5% (-11.1)
Municipal election 2009, 30.6% (-3.7)
Parliamentary election 2011, 24.8% (-0.7)
Municipal election 2013, 29.5% (-1.1)

Following her party losing more than a third of their votes in the EP election, she stated, "When we've won the municipal election, we're going for the third victory in a row." :psyduck:

That 2009 municipal election turned out to be the worst for the party since 1943, followed by the worst parliamentary election since 1903 in 2011. Yet this Tuesday, commenting on the municipal results, she said, "We're facing adversity on the backdrop of the last election, which went really well."

The leader of the Socialists, Annette Vilhelmsen, gave the exact same excuse�the last run went well�despite facing the worst municipal results in at least 20 years.

Guildencrantz posted:

Baby steps, dude, radical parties won't be sweeping votes from conservatives any time soon and we all know it. Meanwhile, social democrats everywhere are wrecking their credibility with the austerity programs, which pretty much leaves votes lying on the ground. It's the task of any socialist/hard-left party to grab them, much like the anti-immigrant right are doing with the more conservative parts of the former SD base. It's unfortunately not possible to stand up to neoliberalism without laying to rest the shambling undead corpse of social democracy, and especially without finally breaking its hegemony on the left.

The Unity List are hard at work trying to make that happen, but they're at risk of alienating their original voter base of democratic socialists, communists and other radicals. They've bit the bullet on numerous occasions, scrambling to keep a massively unpopular government alive, lastly by agreeing to $145m in welfare cuts to extend the gutted unemployment security a bit. The argument being that "the alternative is worse"�but what does it really matter when there's no way the right isn't winning the next election, barring some unprecedented historic miracle, and they're laying the foundation for the, ugh, competition state?

They're busy vacuuming their program of principles and carefully grooming their image to appear more attractive, but it's a double-edge sword and currently wielded by a chief ideologue who simply thinks an even larger public sector is the end goal. They're replacing their original program with some wishy-washy Critique of Capital 101, in which the only mention of communism or Marx is a paraphrase from the Manifesto describing "the great wonders built by capitalism", and beyond some vague "when we get there" rhetoric about workplace democracy and a state bank, necessitating a massive parliamntary victory with a majority of the votes, it's completely toothless.

SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Nov 21, 2013

# ? Nov 21, 2013 16:53

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

SplitSoul posted:

The Unity List

Yeah, this is pretty much the problem. There's a very real possibility, as far as I see it, of the Unity List splitting into a Social Democratic faction and a Socialist faction, which would in the end make the current events nothing but an exodus towards the Danish People's Party and the center-right.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 18:02

Guildencrantz: May 1, 2012; IM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES

SplitSoul posted:

The Unity List are hard at work trying to make that happen, but they're at risk of alienating their original voter base of democratic socialists, communists and other radicals. They've bit the bullet on numerous occasions, scrambling to keep a massively unpopular government alive, lastly by agreeing to $145m in welfare cuts to extend the gutted unemployment security a bit. The argument being that "the alternative is worse"�but what does it really matter when there's no way the right isn't winning the next election, barring some unprecedented historic miracle, and they're laying the foundation for the, ugh, competition state?

They're busy vacuuming their program of principles and carefully grooming their image to appear more attractive, but it's a double-edge sword and currently wielded by a chief ideologue who simply thinks an even larger public sector is the end goal. They're replacing their original program with some wishy-washy Critique of Capital 101, in which the only mention of communism or Marx is a paraphrase from the Manifesto describing "the great wonders built by capitalism", and beyond some vague "when we get there" rhetoric about workplace democracy and a state bank, necessitating a massive parliamntary victory with a majority of the votes, it's completely toothless.

Well, I guess that depends on where you stand. Personally I see that as a good thing, but I'm an old-school democratic socialist so eh. I like Eurocommunists well enough, but I don't think it's an idea with much traction any more v :shobon:

v

Also, sorry if this sounds harsh, but I've spoken to a lot of Scandinavian leftists, and from the outside the complaints you guys raise often appear kinda out of touch. Looking from way over here in former-Bloc-land, what you call "wishy-washy" seems like some sort of unimaginable dreamland far-left program (not to mention complete political suicide). It doesn't mention Marx or communism? Under the Polish constitution mentioning Marx or communism would get your party banned, and saying anything bad about capitalism is pretty much a recipe for getting <1000 votes nationwide. It's not as bad in most of Western Europe, but the radical left making actual gains is still extremely rare nowadays. A move away from orthodox Marxism isn't the end of the world.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 18:56

ekuNNN: Nov 27, 2004; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Guildencrantz posted:

A move away from orthodox Marxism isn't the end of the world.

But it is very often the first step to centrism and liberalism.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 19:13

Shibawanko: Feb 13, 2013

OH NO MY DICK posted:

It always strikes me as sickening and ironic that some of the inhabitants of countries that fought tooth-and-nail against the Axis are now saying "hey this fascism thing has always worked historically hyuk hyuk" and deliberately using imagery that evokes the Nazis in their iconography. Case in point, Golden Dawn:

They're not even trying to hide this poo poo. Is a generation or two of kids not paying attention to history all it takes for these motherfuckers to dupe Europe again?

Being a fascist or Nazi (or, I think, being right wing at all) isn't about being duped, it's a psychosexual complex where you knowingly embrace evil. Sie wissen Es, und sie tun Es.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 19:48

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Guildencrantz posted:

Well, I guess that depends on where you stand. Personally I see that as a good thing, but I'm an old-school democratic socialist so eh. I like Eurocommunists well enough, but I don't think it's an idea with much traction any more vv

It's important to outline what you mean by democratic socialism here, because the term is used for several, markedly different visions of how society should be structured, everything from simple welfare statism to non-revolutionary communism. The Danish Social Democrats, as I imagine most other major labour and social democratic parties throughout Europe, haven't stood for anything resembling socialism for nearly a century. They have since that time slowly drifted from being proponents of a mixed economy with a strong welfare state, large public sector and significant redistribution, through a Third Way transformation and then into full-on neo-liberalism, adopting populist anti-immigrant and pro-EU stances along the way.

Guildencrantz posted:

Also, sorry if this sounds harsh, but I've spoken to a lot of Scandinavian leftists, and from the outside the complaints you guys raise often appear kinda out of touch. Looking from way over here in former-Bloc-land, what you call "wishy-washy" seems like some sort of unimaginable dreamland far-left program (not to mention complete political suicide). It doesn't mention Marx or communism? Under the Polish constitution mentioning Marx or communism would get your party banned, and saying anything bad about capitalism is pretty much a recipe for getting <1000 votes nationwide. It's not as bad in most of Western Europe, but the radical left making actual gains is still extremely rare nowadays. A move away from orthodox Marxism isn't the end of the world.

You have to understand, the Unity List was originally created from various minor Trotskyist, Marxist-Leninist and Maoist parties, and their old program reflected that to a point, there were concrete steps to how society should transition into socialism, why, and what that would mean. I call the new one wishy-washy because it's half "This is how capitalism exploits the worker (that's you!)" and half "Here are a couple of ways it could be avoided, maybe, I dunno". It's painfully clear that it's just going to be archived on their website and completely disregarded in the future, while their MPs keep on trucking with unpopular deals that hurt the poor and they piss away all the support they've amassed recently.

That said, I'm sorry that Poland sucks.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 20:49

Gantolandon: Aug 19, 2012

Guildencrantz posted:

Also, sorry if this sounds harsh, but I've spoken to a lot of Scandinavian leftists, and from the outside the complaints you guys raise often appear kinda out of touch. Looking from way over here in former-Bloc-land, what you call "wishy-washy" seems like some sort of unimaginable dreamland far-left program (not to mention complete political suicide). It doesn't mention Marx or communism? Under the Polish constitution mentioning Marx or communism would get your party banned, and saying anything bad about capitalism is pretty much a recipe for getting <1000 votes nationwide. It's not as bad in most of Western Europe, but the radical left making actual gains is still extremely rare nowadays. A move away from orthodox Marxism isn't the end of the world.

That's actually one of the reasons why nationalists and hyper-aggressive libertarians are so powerful here - it's the only socially acceptable alternative to neoliberalism. Most of the Poles dissatisfied with their economic conditions (quite a lot), who in other countries would at least consider supporting any leftist party, either start supporting one of these ideologies, or just vote for liberals while gritting teeth. There are exceptions - worker unions recently started to assert their position more aggressively. Unfortunately, they mostly represent either heavy industry workers or state employees (like teachers), so their grip on the country's economy is currently very weak.

There are also anarchists, whose existence the country mostly ignores. Sometimes a squat is evicted by the police or a larger protest gains traction and the media briefly remember about them.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 21:37

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yeah, conflating Poland with the rest of "former bloc land" is a pretty giant error to the point of being dishonest.

# ? Nov 21, 2013 22:08

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Frankly, if any part of the former Eastern Bloc wants to tell communism/Marxism to go gently caress itself as forcefully as possible, I can't say I have a problem with it. They've been through it before, all y'all college Marxists haven't. If you discount things like Ostalgie, which is tantamount to Stockholm Syndrome in my opinion, I'm guessing no one wants to go back to communism. The people who think it would be an improvement are as foolishly hopeful as the poor folks who vote Republican in the States because, hey, it'll be worth it once they make their millions.

# ? Nov 22, 2013 07:44

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

PT6A posted:

Frankly, if any part of the former Eastern Bloc wants to tell communism/Marxism to go gently caress itself as forcefully as possible, I can't say I have a problem with it. They've been through it before, all y'all college Marxists haven't. If you discount things like Ostalgie, which is tantamount to Stockholm Syndrome in my opinion, I'm guessing no one wants to go back to communism. The people who think it would be an improvement are as foolishly hopeful as the poor folks who vote Republican in the States because, hey, it'll be worth it once they make their millions.

No but you see I have a poll where people in Eastern Europe said that they are dissatisfied with capitalism in the 21st century. Clearly this means that they pine for the glorious workers movement to rise and liberate them and surely it has nothing to do with worldwide economic slowdown.

# ? Nov 22, 2013 07:53

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Fojar38 posted:

No but you see I have a poll where people in Eastern Europe said that they are dissatisfied with capitalism in the 21st century. Clearly this means that they pine for the glorious workers movement to rise and liberate them and surely it has nothing to do with worldwide economic slowdown.

It's not like the point of socialism is to stop these periodic worldwide economic slowdowns or anything.

# ? Nov 22, 2013 08:53

John Charity Spring: Nov 4, 2009; SCREEEEE

I thought it was pretty uncontroversial that there's a lot of support in former Eastern Bloc countries for how things used to be, with the exception of Poland and the Czech Republic. This isn't even necessarily support for socialism, just a fairly common perception that they were better off before.

# ? Nov 22, 2013 08:53

Big Hubris: Mar 8, 2011

No, see, communism is bad and all of those old people in Red Square with their medals are plants. Gorbachev is incredibly happy that he destroyed the greatest country on earth after Ronald Reagan promised lucrative trade deals in exchange for a photo op.

Oh wait, all of the people eating collard greens want to go back to real food? They're obviously a fringe minority.

# ? Nov 22, 2013 08:58

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# ? May 24, 2024 08:18

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yeah, it is inconceivable that a large region of the world might have distinctively differing opinions about the past. It is good to know entire populations of tens of millions of people just have Stockholm syndrome though.

# ? Nov 22, 2013 09:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > A return of Fascism in Europe?

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