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Daeren posted:Whatever point where they're not constantly making GBS threads themselves and terrified for their very lives. Yeah, but I'm trying to plan out XP awards. Perhaps I should be asking, at what XP total do you...switch from having to scrape up XP to spend on improvements to having to scrape up improvements on which to spend XP.
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Nov 23, 2013 15:44
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Rockopolis posted:Yeah, but I'm trying to plan out XP awards. If you play it right, they'll never not be making GBS threads themselves. As they start to get stronger, just crack open the deathwatch books and start throwing necrons and tau at them.
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Nov 23, 2013 15:47
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I'm not a 40kRPG expert by any means but it seems to me based on making a short list of "things I might like to buy with XP later" that most basic-level talents and skill advances that someone is "specialized" in lean towards 200-300 XP a pop, and then the higher costed stuff tends to be 400-600 or so (obviously this can differ depending on what the hell you're trying to buy, a Tier 3 talent that you have no aptitudes in is like 1200 XP, but that's kind of an outlier). So I'd guess you could use that as a rough benchmark to help plot things out...giving characters 500-600 XP or so will let them buy two or three low-costed upgrades or one higher-costed one with perhaps some left over either way, for example. Also 2500 XP is the point where characters first get the option of taking an advanced specialty, so that's another benchmark to look at. There are also other rewards you can give out besides XP, like medals and regimental awards if you feel that the group has earned something like that. I can only speak for myself, but I find little things like that to be pretty fun ways to call back to earlier sessions while also providing a nice little mechanical reward on top of it.
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Nov 23, 2013 16:13
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You guys just want all the XP, don't you. Okay, doing the math, it's 1600 to max out an two aptitude characteristic, 2500 for one aptitude. Skills are 1000 and 2000 each. And I know for my test character it was about 1000 to get the minimum in talents I wanted. So, uh, a lot. I guess shoot for the 15,000-20,000 XP range by the end of the campaign. Looks like I'm going to have to throw in more missions and worlds, and give out XP with both hands. Probably going to be stingy with Edit; Oop, yeah, I was looking at the medals, particularly theTriple Skull, awarded for devotion to duty in the face of 66%+ casualties 
Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Nov 23, 2013 |
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Nov 23, 2013 16:17
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I mean, bear in mind I have zero experience running any sort of 40K game so I have no loving clue what proper numbers are for this sort of thing. I know that in Ronwayne's game (I keep typing "Ranbar" and having to delete it) he started us at the 2500+ point and by the time I was done buying everything I was like "man, that is a lot of stuff" but then I look at Deathwatch where characters have lists of skills and talents three times that long and  Something that can be fun is to establish secondary and tertiary objectives that may not award XP but something else instead. Reinforce a besieged garrison and the grateful Guardsman give you a few rockets and a spare launcher. Rescue a downed Valkyrie pilot and your squad receives a +10 bonus to Charm tests when interacting with members of their squad/regiment. Retrieve the Regimental Standard and everyone gets a fate point. Even things that don't necessarily have a corresponding mechanical benefit explicitly spelled out...the knowledge that someone owes the squad a favor and is willing to provide artillery support or a hot evac can be worth more than numbers on a sheet when things go south.
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Nov 23, 2013 16:38
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The other lines cap out at 50k so you could start from there.
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Nov 23, 2013 16:47
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Asehujiko posted:The other lines cap out at 50k so you could start from there.  Good grief, I'm having a hard time imagining how beastly the characters would be after half that.
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Nov 23, 2013 17:17
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Rockopolis posted:
There's a reason Vindicares have that insane dodge ability. By the time you're fighting Ascension-tier monsters, you need it.
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Nov 23, 2013 22:57
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Meanwhile, the poor joke characters like the stormtrooper...
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Nov 24, 2013 10:27
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Ronwayne posted:Meanwhile, the poor joke characters like the stormtrooper... The storm trooper makes zero sense to me. They get all sorts of social stuff like Peers and Good Reputations, but how often do you see a guardsman character in Dark Heresy with a fellowship of 50, let alone 30? That class, more than any of the others, needs a total rework.
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Nov 24, 2013 16:25
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How's this for a  campaign I may run when I get the chance.Ogryn Bone 'ead Special Assault Unit Everyone is an Ogryn, with Cerebral Implant cyberware, with possible exceptions for techpriests and medics to keep the squad running smoothly. On the other hand, Doctor Techpriest Ogrynseer has a nice ring to it (in which case Vanguard or Siege Regiment or Forgeworld Homeworld may be useful) You're basically alt-stormtroopers/discount Space Marines; assigned to do extremely dangerous missions, too dangerous for ordinary soldiers, that nonetheless requires you to be able to think on your feet and act on your own initiative away from direct command. Homeworld Schola 3 Pt Officer Maverick 2 Pt Drop Troops 3pt Augmetics 2pt Close Quarters Battle 5pt/ Mistrusted -3pt & The Few -5 pt GM Special: All Ogryns start with Best Quality Cerebral Implant & Cranial Armor Augmetics These guys are seriously beastly, though, and aside from enemy armored vehicles I'm not sure what would be appropriate challenges and missions would be. The main thing that jumps out at me is trench raids, WWI Infiltration/Stormtrooper tactcs, and special missions on Kulth. Also, Colonel Algernon will just make me seriously cry.  I might be able to come up was more fluff details later. Some Munitorum adept did the math and decided the cost/benefit of this unit was pretty good, there was a niche they filled. Um, they're Ogryn. They're cyborg Ogryn; nobody trusts them and they don't know what the hell the Munitorum was thinking. They're also in short supply; discount is a relative term, especially when talking about in comparison to Space Marines.
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Nov 24, 2013 19:18
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Foot patrols in a Hive city you're trying to terrify into submission. They'll loving hate the cramped corridors, shoot into crowded alleyways while going after fleeing targets, and never understand why they aren't getting medals when the kill-count is so big.
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Nov 24, 2013 19:24
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Asehujiko posted:No, they decided to ensure backwards compatibly by changing the wound and action system back last I've heard. Yup - they're firmly committed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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Nov 24, 2013 22:45
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Daeren posted:Whatever point where they're not constantly making GBS threads themselves and terrified for their very lives. I missed this earlier, but I think OW operates best in that sweetspot between exploding randomly and The Expendables. Aren't The Expendables more Deathwatch, you ask? No, Space Marines are their own thing entirely
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Nov 25, 2013 15:52
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Rockopolis posted:I might be able to come up was more fluff details later. This is ingenious and you should be proud of yourself! I'm thinking siege breakers. If you have a planet stuck in trench warfare and your regiments can't hack the opposition, they're your grenadiers! Goatface's option sounds really grimdark, too, I'd love to try something like that. Hilarity option: Infiltrate behind ork lines as partisans. Throw in a magos xenobiologikus who explains that as long as they paint themselves green, they're good to go, some crudely painted boltguns and bob's your uncle!
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Nov 25, 2013 16:45
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I think what would make or break it is having enough specialists that have to try and lead the ogryn. Like herding big lovable cats that will crush you. Including the "oh poo poo" moment when the commissar realizes his/her bolt pistol will just make them angry when shot in the 'ead.
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Nov 25, 2013 16:53
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Nah, just carry a melta pistol instead.
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Nov 25, 2013 16:56
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Kenlon posted:Yup - they're firmly committed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Which is a terrible shame, because holy hell do some of these systems need another look. Like in OW, where you have the interesting problem where a Guard squad is very squishy, but has absolutely, pantshittingly high firepower for 'normal' human characters if they've got the right specialties around. I killed a Chaos Marine as a starting Heavy in a single round of combat with an autocannon, once. I suppose that's quite accurate to the TT and setting concept of Guardsmen, though: Individually easy to murder, but by God do you not want to get into a gunfight on their terms.
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Nov 25, 2013 18:56
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Don't forget, this is a Bone'ead squad, which is why they cost so much. They're still kind of dim (other than the player who dumps 20 points in intelligence to be Doctor Ogryn), but now they're smart enough to follow orders. Probably still a good idea to have a bunch of support specialists and normal officers. I think maybe downgrade the Cerebral Implants to Common Craftsmanship, say they counteract most of the Ogryn mental issues (go with average 1d10 penalties of implant vs Ogryn penalties), and save the Good/Best quality for a mid/late game upgrade to super special operations, especially since high quality implants are Near Unique, compared to regular implants being as 'common' as a lascannon. Do I give non-Ogryns anything instead of Cerebral Implants, or does Ogryn bodyguard make up for it? But yeah, I like siegebreaking to start out. I think a Kulth campaign is the obvious choice for me...maybe I'll send my Fear of the Dark players to Avitohol instead. Or not, it's a big world. I think a big part of the challenge is going to be for the Ogryn players trying to keep their squishy human support specialists alive versus the kind of threats you'd throw the squad at. It's kind of the murdertroll problem in Shadowrun, but I'm hoping to make it part of the mission. They all have Comrades, right? Who are they and why are they there? Special skills, padding out the numbers, making sure the big guys don't get confused? I don't have Deathwatch; how badly do they stack up against actual (Deathwatch badass) Space Marines? On the plus side, they're still cheaper/more available, and part of the chain of command. I might just have to build a character later, just to get an idea of what it would be like.
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Nov 25, 2013 19:34
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A space marine is massively better armoured, carrying a vastly superior weapon, and doesn't have half as many problems with quartermasters, commissars and incompetent leadership. The basic Deathwatch Marine starts at 13,000 XP, has an base stat of 30 in everything, a bunch of inbuilt "wargear", and several significant interaction buffs when dealing with Imperial citizenry (well, the ones who actually respect/fear them. Other Astartes, Inquisitors, planetary governors etc might still be dicks).
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Nov 25, 2013 19:51
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Well yes, but you get a half dozen veteran guard at 2500+exp with the usual bullshit pile of stuff they tend to accumulate over time, and well, it tends to play out as the table top. You'll win if you get there (barring an ogryn to stall you and guard with the talent to shoot into melee) but as mentioned above, the slog to get there will be hell. Also, rock, don't C.Q. implants REDUCE intelligence? They reduce 1d10 from a bunch of characteristics including intelligence. You'd actually make them MORE retarded, with a non-insignificant chance of having a PC with 0 int. Yeah, G.Q. Cerebral Implants are near-unique, but every single engin-seer can start with one, so a small specialty freakshow regiment shouldn't have a problem with that. I mean, getting 100 ogryn with them is probably not much more expensive than giving a full sized 1000-2000ish guard reg enough tanks and V.Rare heavy weapons. I mean, its possible to start, without taking any flaws, with a full sized guard unit with Best quality plasma guns and plasma cannons as their reg/heavy weapons, and STILL have points left over for other stuff in their kit (Hell, give them B.Q. flak too for making them even blingier than Scintillans). That's 1000+ dudes with hundreds of Dark Age of Tech dakka. Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 20:07
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Oh god yeah, they'd be massively cheap compared to a space marine. A theatre commander could probably acquire and lose half a dozen squads of them for the political clout necessary to have a conversation with a Space Marine commander.
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Nov 25, 2013 20:13
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Yeah, Space Marines are Best, but vet. guard is good enough for everything except "whoops, kicked open the Tomb World like a bunch of clanking grumpy old man fire ants."
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Nov 25, 2013 20:14
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goatface posted:A space marine is massively better armoured, carrying a vastly superior weapon, and doesn't have half as many problems with quartermasters, commissars and incompetent leadership. The basic Deathwatch Marine starts at 13,000 XP, has an base stat of 30 in everything, a bunch of inbuilt "wargear", and several significant interaction buffs when dealing with Imperial citizenry (well, the ones who actually respect/fear them. Other Astartes, Inquisitors, planetary governors etc might still be dicks). Yeah, the Deathwatch rulebook also loves to remind you about how much Space Marine equipment rules, all the way down to the humble Bolter, by saying that everything else made for basic human use is just an inferior copy of a vastly superior original. Kind of like how Space Marines themselves are inferior copies of a vastly superior original (Primarchs), who themselves are copies of an original (the Emperor)! But seriously, Deathwatch is meant to make you feel like a huge badass because you are one. Check out the Neo Contra video Ronwayne linked above, and then remember that in actuality Space Marines don't even need to bother dodging against mooks because their armor and toughness are so massive that they can shrug off a hail of autogun shots (and more often than not lasgun shots) without much worry. Tyranids, with penetration on even their most humble ranged weapon, are another matter entirely though. Also, is it just me or do Techmarines kick enormous amounts of rear end?
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Nov 25, 2013 20:50
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LuiCypher posted:Also, is it just me or do Techmarines kick enormous amounts of rear end? I've seen this floated around a fair bit. My mate is joining our Deathwatch game shortly and is considering going a TM, anyone able to give a quick synopsis of why they're so poo poo hot?
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Nov 25, 2013 22:44
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In my Deathwatch game, our Imperial Fist techmarine got up to something like Artificer Armor+multiple Flesh is Weak+Armor Monger+50 base Toughness to hit a DR rating that was well into the 30s, to the point that totally eliminating his AV with Pen just wasn't going to happen and he was basically akin to shooting at an actual tank. He then carried a missile launcher everywhere as his main weapon, could fortify cover to make the rest of the team harder, and still had the ability (and desire) to koolaid man through walls with his servo harness and power-fist whatever was behind them. "There's thirsty kids in that bunker!" became a thing with the other players.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:47
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Yoshimo posted:I've seen this floated around a fair bit. My mate is joining our Deathwatch game shortly and is considering going a TM, anyone able to give a quick synopsis of why they're so poo poo hot? They get a giant gently caress off powerfist (servo arm) attack that gets combined with other attacks for free. Not to mention they get really good melee advancement stuff almost of par with the assault marine plus lots of damage reduction stuff and the later options to go and get the full servo harness doom suit and the crazy mechanicum weaponry.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:49
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I seem to recall from the DW campaign I was in that the techmarine absolutely owned everything in close combat because he had some sort of servo-claw that tore rear end. E: Beaten like the infortune xenos battlesuit he pulped with the thing Tias fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 23:51
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What advantage would an assault marine have over a tech marine, then? Jump pack, maybe?
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Nov 26, 2013 00:02
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Assaults are considerably better at anything requiring agility. Tech marines are clumsy by comparison. Techs do get flesh is weak though, which I'm convinced is the best talent in the game line.
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Nov 26, 2013 00:12
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Pretty much. While the techmarine is a veritable tank, assault marines are generally a lot more agile, and get a few more melee-based talents.
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Nov 26, 2013 00:12
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VanSandman posted:What advantage would an assault marine have over a tech marine, then? Jump pack, maybe? Thats about it. He has quick advancement I guess? Maybe? Essentially he gets outclassed by the Librarian (who can turn into absolutely monstrous melee characters) and the techmarine.
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Nov 26, 2013 00:12
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Planning on starting an online campaign in Dark Heresy. Are there any good google doc versions of character sheets? The ones I found were utter crap.
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Nov 26, 2013 01:23
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drat it, I do not have time for this, but I can't stop thinking about it. Long commute&espresso, I guess. Maybe over the winter break if anyone still thinks it's a good idea. I thought Bone'eads were still supposed to be pretty dim, so I figure I'd handwave that the brain implants change the Ogryn penalty to -6 IN&AG, so roughly a dim DeathWorld Line guardsman, assuming I treat "being an Ogryn" as repairable brain damage. I go back and forth on the other penalties. I kinda don't want to just hand the everything at start, might as well play DW or RT, plus I'm more going with a (low-budget) prototype unit feel. Besides, it feels more...plausible(?verisimilitude-inous?) if I can get this in under the same limits as a regiment designed by sane people, if that makes sense. I think this is actually fewer points than my Fear of the Dark game, actually. For the OW players who've been on a World War kick, this is like grabbing a bunch of surplus Czech Hedgehogs and welding them to the front of a Sherman to make an improvised hedgerow cutter/mine plow. Okay, more fluff, let's see if this makes sense. The Commanding Officer is a deactivated veteran Stormtrooper, whose action days are behind him and whose unit is used up. He's got a chestful of medals, he's going through OCS, reading logistics reports, and he's recuperating and waiting for a new set of limbs, when he gets a crazy idea. "Let's grab a bunch of Ogryns, these ones, and...wait, hang on, don't go! And, okay, I know someone in the AdMech, set us up with some brain augmetics, and see this logistics report here? And, uh, my old Corporal is a drill abbot now, he can get us some Stormtrooper washouts to fill out the ranks, gotta be hundreds of the wimps, and..." Until it snowballed into the, uh, EXperimental Company of Ogryn Marauders. He's got a limited budget, limited independence, most gear has to be improvised because it doesn't exist, and he's got logistical and strategic problems because the idea is so the Munitorum and theatre commanders don't really know what to do with them and think it's a horrible, mad idea.Now, the only reason he's gotten this far is because he's a certified war hero whose called in absolutely every favor, but he's staked his future career on this idea; if it fails, he's going to be pushing paper till the Emperor gets off the Throne. But hey, it's gotta be a better idea than taking criminals and turning them into a high stakes special forces unit. Homeworld: Schola 3pt (a lot of the non-Ogryns are washouts from the Stormtrooper program) CO: Maverick 2pt (Got a reputation for effective but extremely unconventional ideas, like Ogryn special forces"You're a drat fine Stormtrooper, but you're a loose cannon!") Regiment: Grenadiers 5pt (Superheavy Infantry, with grenade launchers hastily welded to ripper guns) Doctrines: Close Quarters Battle 5 pt (hone the Ogryn's natural role with actual training, plus you need two kits of Carapace armor to outfit the Ogryns) Augmetics 2pt (Entire unit has fresh brains. Also, they're so short handed and expensive that despite recycling the implants, a patch job is frequently much more economical than replacement) The Few -5 pt (You're the only person insane enough to think this was a good idea, where the gently caress do you expect to get more soldiers. Going to have to shuffle some around to fill in the holes or hope the chopshop can fix some of your goons) 20 RP for very rare brain augmetics 8 RP Gas mask 2 RP Rolex That's right, I built a regiment of kill-ogres with enough points left over for Rolexes.  Giant, giant Rolexes.And I'll do the clean sheet in a bit. Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 01:41
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You mentioned earlier doing better versions of cerebral implants for special missions? So they don't have to undergo surgery, maybe fluff it as overclocking the normal ones. Maybe do it so one ogryn per mission gets their brain circuits overclocked and is squad leader, because they can't function at that level for too long without heat damage. I bring it up because I always liked the way Deathwatch cycled through team leaders per mission.
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Nov 26, 2013 02:00
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I want to see you run this, only so I can play as the overly racist anti-mutant priest that gets attached to this squad by a much more liberal/heretical higher up than him to see if it is possible to enlighten the augmented Ogryn to really recognize and worship the Emperor.
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Nov 26, 2013 02:27
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Night10194 posted:Which is a terrible shame, because holy hell do some of these systems need another look. Like in OW, where you have the interesting problem where a Guard squad is very squishy, but has absolutely, pantshittingly high firepower for 'normal' human characters if they've got the right specialties around. I killed a Chaos Marine as a starting Heavy in a single round of combat with an autocannon, once. I suppose that's quite accurate to the TT and setting concept of Guardsmen, though: Individually easy to murder, but by God do you not want to get into a gunfight on their terms. That's about how it should be. Imperial Guard fighting on their own terms are actually really goddamn effective, which is why the Imperium hasn't shrunk more than it has.
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Nov 26, 2013 03:39
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Werix posted:I want to see you run this, only so I can play as the overly racist anti-mutant priest that gets attached to this squad by a much more liberal/heretical higher up than him to see if it is possible to enlighten the augmented Ogryn to really recognize and worship the Emperor. Ogryns are actually some of the most devoted members of the Imperial Creed alive. Their faith is described as "unshakable" and practiced with "child-liked" devotion. They believe the Emperor watch over their every move on the battlefield, and their reputation for savagery and insane/retarded heroics are actually derived from them not wanting to let big daddy in the sky down. It's pretty adorable, if not for the wanton slaughter and unnatural strength! Fake edit: They think any order given to them is handed down from the Emperor in person, due to an extremely literal interpretation of the chain of command 
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Nov 26, 2013 12:21
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How many Guardsman think that, too? From the Emperor's mouth to my ears! Hah. Also, the Emperor's Tarot, isn't that part of strategic planning?
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Nov 26, 2013 13:04
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It's from canon sources, but discard at your leisure. Keep in mind that the above goes primarily for un-augmented ogryns, they are simple as gently caress in all respects. Heh, this takes me back to playing the Space Hulk computer game as a kid, and having my mind blown when the captain informed me that the Emperor had dictated my squads weaponry. Busy, that guy!
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Nov 26, 2013 13:27
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