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fargom posted:Mission abort, we're headed home early. Hey, this sounds like mine, except instead of the Mutons I had Sectoid Commanders and Mechtoids. Some seekers joined the party at some point as well.
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Nov 26, 2013 23:27
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fargom posted:Edit - holy poo poo a 3rd sectopod group moved in blocking the exit. This is going to get very ugly.  to whoever complained about the end being too easy. As for you, good luck!
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Nov 26, 2013 23:28
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1337JiveTurkey posted:The original pretty much forced you into situations where it was almost impossible to avoid taking a loss, even very early on. Medium scouts would have multiple enemies inside their one room, and you couldn't open the door without walking through it and taking all the reaction shots. Generally they're the very first UFO that survived getting shot down and their doors were too narrow for a tank to fit through. Even TFTD's ability to open doors without walking through required standing in front of it which is still suicidal. I really don't want future games to be like that. 
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Nov 26, 2013 23:32
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Legendary Ptarmigan posted:Wait a sec, are you saying that the original XCOM didn't have cover? How are you meant to have your dudes not die? You had your dudes die a lot. But you also brought 12+ per mission, up to 20-something in the alien-tech end-game Skyranger upgrade, and SHIV-equivalents were starting tech. And you could give everybody a rocket launcher. And everybody, everywhere, on both teams, had what is now 'squad sight.' Accuracy in the original X-COM wasn't a matter of 'do i hit?' Behind the scenes, the computer drew a line from your guy to the other guy's center-of-mass. Accuracy*rand# determined how far your shot would diverge from that line, in a random direction in a cone. If it diverged only slightly, it would still hit somewhere on the target's body and damage it. Same way, close-up shots were more likely to hit than far shots without any definite, easy-to-read 'you are 5% less accurate per tile' display. If you had a guy standing partially behind something, or shooting through a window, then it was more likely that a shot would hit the barrier instead of a guy. And stray shots were a lot more likely to hit other dudes or background objects. But the fact that man movement was still tile based, and everything was displayed in 2-d sprites despite the 3-d math (which had very chunky resolution anyways), meant that lines of sight were very fucky and hard to predict, and if you tried to angle a guy to shoot through a window you were likely to just leave him blind. The best tactic was to spread your guys out, get firing lines out in the open, send a rookie ahead to scout and get vision of aliens, then have the whole rest of your team start shooting at anything you spot. The most-forward guy would often get killed immediately to reaction fire, or a previously-unrevealed alien moving forward on the next turn, so it was wise to bring multiple rookies and keep your ranked-up guys with non-poo poo accuracy way back. edit: Also every shot would deal a random amount between 0% and 200% of its listed damage to whatever it hit. StringOfLetters fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 23:38
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Attention Horse posted:Except it's not even a game, it's just a prerendered video. But the mood is very cool. I only wish overwatch firing would be this quick but nooo let's watch our sniper line up a shot for 7 seconds and then 4 more seconds to show that it was a miss. Hostile still active indeed.
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Nov 26, 2013 23:42
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If I recall, didn't the original game have ridiculous damage deviation? I recall watching videos of games where someone would take two/three shots and come out with like one/two damage total.
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Nov 26, 2013 23:42
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:That pretty much never happened in the original. You never got any crazy one-turn squad wipes or anything except to extremely rare circumstances. It might not have been 1 turn, but if you played your dudes too close together you would get your poo poo pushed in all the time, since the AI would see 3 guys together and decide 'TIME FOR A GRENADE'. Panic spirals were loving AWFUL since any time you had less than I think it was like 50 morale you had a chance to panic/hide/go berserk...EVERY TURN. So if half your squad got wiped out by one alien getting saucy, the other half had an absolutely disastrous effect on their combat effectiveness, which could only be restored by killing aliens. I'm sure you see the problem. Sure, it didn't take 1 turn to go Condition Black, but one explosion and the writing could very quickly be on the wall for your soldiers in UFO Defense. Also, going full on Condition Black even once in UFO Defense was often grounds to restart the entire goddamn game, since you lost your Skyranger if that poo poo happened. I generally find that EU's Battlescape just has the most extreme fluctuations taken out. Sure, you occasionally get a goddamn Thin Man going on a tear and murdering half your squad while hundreds of bullets make an Elmer Fudd-style cutout around him, but you don't get an alien grenade rolling in and dominating a third of your team at once, leaving another third of your team a useless, panicky wreck indefinitely. On the other hand, after you got established in UFO, there was literally no reason to risk your vets anymore. Just send some clueless, dumbfuck rookie to spot for you and mind control every alien you saw. Shoot the poo poo you can't MC with poo poo you can. Or just leave your dudes by the wheels of the skyranger and shoot from 50 miles away because everyone has squadsight. Oh poo, the Rookie died? gently caress off, who cares, just send another. Or if you're really soft hearted, pack a couple of tanks and send those instead. In EU you definitely start rolling poo poo when you get late in the game, but Sectopods could still be horrifying even before their buff, and you could still lose an awesome soldier or two if you got careless to Elite Muton fire. It's the same experience, but the difficulty goes from 7 to 3 instead of 9 to 1. I do agree that the Geoscape lost a ton in the modernization though. I miss multiple bases, I miss multiple Skyrangers, I miss dynamic hangar space and all that other good stuff. In UFO, the Geoscape was basically a separate game that you had to play and play WELL to win. Now the Geoscape feels more like a minigame in between missions, since there are really only a couple ways you can gently caress it up bad.
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Nov 26, 2013 23:49
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thebardyspoon posted:Hey, this sounds like mine, except instead of the Mutons I had Sectoid Commanders and Mechtoids. Some seekers joined the party at some point as well. Yeah all in all that mission had 23 aliens: 4 sectoid commanders 3 Mectoids 3 sectoids 4 heavy floater 2 sectopods 4 drones 2 mutons 1 muton berzerker It wasn't a 3rd sectopod thankfully, it was just the one that was patrolling had swooped off the side of the ufo. He forced the fight, but I ended up winning with only one casualty, a low ranking sniper. Supply barges are no joke.
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Nov 26, 2013 23:54
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Legendary Ptarmigan posted:Wait a sec, are you saying that the original XCOM didn't have cover? How are you meant to have your dudes not die? Think of the difference between cover in Counterstrike and Gear of War. In one, cover is just a natural element of terrain that you use to break line of sight with your opponent. In the other, cover is something that is tangibly different according to the game rules that allow you 'stick' to it that kind of has its own special rules. Also like others pointed out, acceptable losses was way, way, way higher in the original.
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Nov 26, 2013 23:58
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I'd really like to see a new XCOM game with Silent Storm-style combat.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:03
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Coolguye posted:I do agree that the Geoscape lost a ton in the modernization though. I miss multiple bases, I miss multiple Skyrangers, I miss dynamic hangar space and all that other good stuff. In UFO, the Geoscape was basically a separate game that you had to play and play WELL to win. Now the Geoscape feels more like a minigame in between missions, since there are really only a couple ways you can gently caress it up bad. Base attacks in UFO wasn't a one-time scripted event, it happened continuously. You could build defense emplacements in your base to reduce the chance, but it still happened every now and then. (On the up side, if you survived the base attack it was a good source of alien tech)
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Nov 27, 2013 00:08
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Any reason to not have your non mec soldiers have some gene implants? Besides they looking kinda iffy without a shirt on
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Nov 27, 2013 00:14
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You didn't really have cover per se. This is closer to how the firing system worked in UFO. Note that this is mostly my own observations and stuff, so if someone comes in by saying 'nah dude I looked at the code and this is how it rolls' then they are probably right: You had a firing accuracy stat, which could be modified by distance, smoke, and a lot of other environmental things. Terrain concealment, however, was not considered beyond basic line of fire stuff. If you rolled a 'hit', you fired on a line with either your target's head or their body. The only way cover could help you in this situation if you were behind some sort of chest-high wall (and thus your enemy had LOS) but they rolled at your chest (which had an obstruction). If you rolled a 'miss', you fired on a random inaccuracy cone. Depending on the range involved and the cone chosen, you could still tag your opponent in the arm or leg or something. Cover could help you in this situation by strangling the 'correct' cones that can hit you. Realistically though it meant your real defenses weren't cover at all - they were distance and not being a valid target due to LOS. This led to what were called 'scout/sniper tactics', which basically meant sending the dumbass rookie forward to spot an alien and having the 4 valuable dudes in back taking pot shots at anything that didn't look human.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:14
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Holy poo poo I ust had the most intense Overeer UFO mission. 4-Man Squad, 3 MECs, 1 Assault. Relay says there's 13 aliens: Muton Elites, Sectopods, Drones, Etheral. I can guess the composition of the packs so I go in preparing for the worst. The landing and first few turns were uneventful, I slowly made my way to the closest Meld. That's where the fun started. The Meld was guarded by a Sectopod and two drones. I can deal with one sectopod at a time. I back up and choose favorable ground. If I'm going to fight the gently caress it will be on my terms. After a mine and a lucky low % shot, the battle begins proper. My assault rushes and eats a hit (no lightning reflex) but takes out both drones. Two MECs shoot while my EMP MEC moves in for a disable. The MEC has its turn (one point blank hit on my melee MEC, one miss on the Assault. All right! I can disable him and kill him easily! ...except before the turn ends a second Sectopod shows up with 2 more drones. At this point I give up on the MELD. The plan remains the same. kill one Sectopod then deal with the other. I EMP and lay down the pain with my Assault doing the bulk of the damage (allow cannon owns). Sectopod explodes (hurting my Assault and melee MEC and putting them dangerously close to dying while my other 2 MECs just prepare for an incoming barrage of death. The second Sectopod and drones waste no time, hitting the closest MEC once and then preparing his missile barrage. This is about the best outcome I could have hoped for. I rush with everyone to get out of the barrage and punch the fucker twice while my assault deal with drones. After another hit on a MEC from the sectopod, all 3 are now pretty hurt and I'm running low on healing options. a lucky, LUCKY hit from the assault leaves the sectopod at 1HP. This allows me to move my healthiest MEC (to each the reaction shot) and move everyone out of range. 2nd Sectopod down. That's 6 out of 13 dead. I know there's only one etheral accompanied by 2 Muton Elites meaning there's two 2 Muton Elite packs out there. I make my way to the ship and sure enough 2 Mutons show up. I'm out of healing mist and medikits at this point so I back up, lay a mine and let them come to me. The initial round of fire goes well. They miss (I do too) but it lets me position myself for a flank and a melee punch. Unfortunately the MEC that is hurt the most is the closest one so he'll have to risk going further and maybe triggering the other 2 Mutons but it's a big mp what are the odds of that? I flank and kill one then go for an easy melee kill... and trigger the remaining 2 Mutons elite. THAT'S MOTHERFUCKING X-COM. At this point Someone is going to die. As a last action Col. Jonas 'Warlock' Baurer accepts his fate and kill the muton elite next to him, knowing he has no cover for what's coming. My assault is the last action. I move her to a tree by the ship in the hope she draws fire. Hurting them won't save my MEC. Then I realize Col. Wolf was recently found to be psychic! It's a long shot but she mind frays the closest muton elite, hoping the attack makes him miss. Alien activity. The first muton lines up his shot and MISSES! The second muton (further back) lines up his shot AND MISSES AGAIN!!! gently caress. YES!. I waste absolutely no time killing them before they can do anything and reload. There's still 3 aliens left. My MECS are pretty hurt and so is my Assault. The turn I enter the room is the ONLY turn I will have to pull this off. I have 2 kinetic strike MECs and 1 flamethrower MEC. There's only one way about it. I line up everyone against one of the side walls and make my own loving door. Surprise, motherfuckers! 2nd Kinetic Strike runs up to the Etheral and lands a solid blow. Etheral is down to 2 HP. Assault moves in and makes the capture, I won't have a chance like this again. 2 Mutons Elite with only 1 MEC to deal with them. 1 MEC with a loving flamethrower. The flames connect and make the stupid aliens panic. They do nothing in their turn and I finish them off. MIssion success! Ethereal device obtained! Ethereal captured! ZERO loving CASUALTIES! I need a beer.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:18
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Coolguye posted:If you rolled a 'hit', you fired on a line with either your target's head or their body. The only way cover could help you in this situation if you were behind some sort of chest-high wall (and thus your enemy had LOS) but they rolled at your chest (which had an obstruction).
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Nov 27, 2013 00:26
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Collateral Damage posted:This was further complicated by the fact that pretty much anything that could work as cover in UFO was made of papier-mache and was destroyed by looking at it too hard, so even by the narrow definition of cover in UFO it was only good for one shot. Didn't matter if the shot was from a ballistic pistol or a plasma cannon. With her assault rifle.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:27
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Away all Goats posted:
Squad for a standard Skyranger was 16? Then the upgraded ship was what? 24? Much higher amount than the 4-6 you have now. Early missions I think I'd lose 3-8 people per mission on average, usually the rookies who you could ask to punch at the rain, and they'd somehow miss and kill one of your better soldiers instead. And then the wonderful panic spiral of rookies killing other rookies in a panic, which causes more rookies to end up panicing and dropping their gun to go run and hug a chryssalid. Or that soldier you have with a rocket(when rockets were equippable weapons)? He decided to flip his poo poo and fire it in the sky ranger and take out himself and 90% of your soldiers, because Joebob outside got shot. I played TFTD far more than UFO Defense, so I'm less familiar with the UFO defense bugs. In TFTD there was an item limit (I bet there was one for UFO defense) so in base missions you'd have a bunch of weapons and maybe 4 magazines of ammo total for all your soldiers. Certain terror missions, specifically "trawler missions" on civilian boats in TFTD were two-part missions that were equally long with a large amount of enemies, it was basically just "you get to do two missions back to back with the same squad, and if you fail at any point you fail both", and there were bugs where you would lose a lot of gear when you transitioned to the second mission, on top of being shot at with very little cover to huddle near to pray that you don't get hit by the super-accurate large force of aliens waiting for you! On top of that, the difficulty was borked so that if you loaded TFTD from a save, the difficulty was automatically put at the hardest setting for the rest of the game. FUN FUN FUN! And yet I kept going back and playing, the pain hurts so good!  In retrospect, Thin men being the JFK-sniping jerks that they are, having some LOS issues doesn't look as bad compared to the original, and the various other awkward bugs. Still not happy that they're there.  Collateral Damage posted:I hated having multiple base inventories to juggle equipment between. Especially when you got a base attack and all your soldiers and equipment was in another base. I am much happier there is only one base to manage. Less menus to click through for the same effect, works for me. I only wish they let you equip the soldiers you were using in the base defense mission in EW, since they seemingly send you only your best soldiers, but oh well. This reminds me of another "bug" where if you shot down a battleship that was actually headed towards your base to try to take out your base(not on a scouting mission, they know where you are and are coming to murder you), if you killed that battleship you'd get another one very shortly after, and you would just have to eventually submit and let them attack your base.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:29
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coyo7e posted:One of my rookies took out an 8-foot section of untouched building wall this morning on a missed shot. This is generally why we have building and construction specifications.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:29
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Emong posted:It's actually 1:1 as of Enemy Within, so you don't need to bother messing with it. Coolguye posted:The Slingshot battleship actually scales with everything else. I did it at the end of May and ran into predominantly Thin Men. There was a Cyberdisk and like 2 Mutons, and curiously enough a single Sectoid, but everything else was Thin Men, which was totally doable with lasers and Skeleton Armor like I was rolling. These are all good to know things, thanks! Nothing yet for speeding up the overwatch (and other) animations though?
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Nov 27, 2013 00:30
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Mr. Wynand posted:Nothing yet for speeding up the overwatch (and other) animations though?
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Nov 27, 2013 00:31
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Honest Thief posted:Any reason to not have your non mec soldiers have some gene implants? Besides they looking kinda iffy without a shirt on
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Nov 27, 2013 00:35
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coyo7e posted:Frankly it makes me wish that there was a "redshirt" slot on your team which would only allow a rookie or SHIV to be set into it, so you could bring along one useless guy for just those scenarios when an idiot running into a room full of enemies will give you that critical edge. Anybody tossing a rookie into a situation where they're going to get killed given the tools the game makes available to avoid that deserves an old school panic wave. Still, the game does need some sort of way to encourage using SHIVs which goes beyond making them better soldiers to compensate for the loss of experience. A dedicated SHIV slot would help, as would making SHIVs more about supporting actual soldiers than replacing them. Stuff like smoke (or poison gas) dispensers, holotargeting everything in sight or letting soldiers standing next to it recharge per-mission abilities.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:37
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Collateral Damage posted:Base attacks in UFO wasn't a one-time scripted event, it happened continuously. You could build defense emplacements in your base to reduce the chance, but it still happened every now and then. (On the up side, if you survived the base attack it was a good source of alien tech) You could build base defences that would damage the Battleship doing the attack. If you had enough defences, the ship got destroyed and no base attack takes place. I think you needed 4 Fusion Ball launchers or something. I tried an old-school UFO Ironman run once, a few years ago. I think I did the last mission with half my squad as rookies, because I kept running out of squaddies.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:45
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RBA Starblade posted:I love how silly the projectile looks just floating around everywhere compared to the rocket launcher. It's the least threatening death machine.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:49
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Emong posted:You mean this? drat it drat it I really want to play that XCom! And were those simultaneous turns I saw? More X-Files/Signs/War of the Worlds and less Independence Day. More Frozen Synapse and less Advance Wars. That's the XCom I really wanted all along  Don't get me wrong, I love EU/EW to bits anyway - it's a much more approachable and satisfying game, but to me a great deal of the original UFO was atmosphere, which is largely gone here in favor of generic badassery. I also think Meier/Gupta sort of over-value boardgame-ness a little much. I'm 100% with them in the general sense that the gameplay that can be reduced to a boardgame is ultimately what actually where the fun comes from, but at the same time, you also have to acknowledge that the player's expectations about the game world are very much informed by how abstract the game board looks. You look at an actual board game like Twilight Struggle and you give absolutely no fucks if it feels "unrealistic" because there's nothing real about it to begin with - it's all abstractions. But XCom, even way back in the DOS days presents as a concrete, tangible world. I actually really loved the real-time-ish combat of Apocalypse, it just fit so much better with how you expect the game to flow. I mean you see the whole "tactical" layout of any of the XCom games and you just know you want to set up a SWAT style "breach" with everyone pouring into the room with sniper cover at the exits and all that poo poo and Apoc really was the first game that let you do that properly while still giving you the tools necessary to stop the action and go "hmmm... now how shall we unfuck ourselves form this situation...".
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Nov 27, 2013 00:57
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Mr. Wynand posted:I actually really loved the real-time-ish combat of Apocalypse, it just fit so much better with how you expect the game to flow. I mean you see the whole "tactical" layout of any of the XCom games and you just know you want to set up a SWAT style "breach" with everyone pouring into the room with sniper cover at the exits and all that poo poo and Apoc really was the first game that let you do that properly while still giving you the tools necessary to stop the action and go "hmmm... now how shall we unfuck ourselves form this situation...". I liked Apocalypse's real-time combat option as well. Soldiers would do certain things like duck into cover or go prone when being shot at, and you could select multiple units at once and give them behaviors and move orders, so you didn't have to micromanage them as heavily. The combat progression fit pretty well I thought, like Baldur's Gate. There were rounds in Baldur's Gate as well, but it was done in real time well enough that you wouldn't particularly notice it's just rounds of combat progressing quickly with a time limit on the round, so if you didn't make an action you didn't do anything. You could pause, select an action for all your party members, let it all play out at once, and then pause again after the exchange and play it like a turn-based game. Apocalypse, for those who don't know, also had a turn-based option for combat as well that was very similar to the original's system. Being able to pause whenever in Apocalypse, and slow/speed up the flow of time was enough of a balance for the player to have a lot of control of the situation while giving the sense that this was an actual gunfight. The physics involved with blowing up supporting structures and causing collapses was also very fun to interact with. As much as the Geoscape was a refreshing change of pace with the real-time vehicle combat, I much prefer the XCOM 2012's geoscape and how it resolves Aircraft fights. One of the big limits to those real-time fights though, and this may be partially due to squad size, is something would happen and you wouldn't see it. The ticker felt ineffective; it wouldn't update fast enough, or with enough information to tell you about what was going on with the squad in a heated fight. There was information you might lose out on in the battlefield, and in a turn-based combat you see every move happen so you get nearly all the information you need from that. While yes, it was more realistic of a fight, concessions have to be made in most games when it comes to realism for the sake of gameplay.
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Nov 27, 2013 01:17
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Mr. Wynand posted:drat it drat it I really want to play that XCom! And were those simultaneous turns I saw? Mostly what you saw was pre-rendered cutscenes with no actual gameplay mechanics at work. Likewise with the "Cinematic" video linked. The "No cover" one is an actual, working prototype of the game, but it was scrapped for various reasons.
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Nov 27, 2013 02:14
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Better late than never? I just received the Newfoundland mission. It's December. I'm just dicking around farming meld in psi armor / t3 MECs.
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Nov 27, 2013 02:24
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I personally like the idea of having to use multiple bases and design them around the constant threat of assault. I mean in the game now you really only need a B team if your A team has a guy in the hospital or if you don't want to waste experience with maxed out dude. Having to put a team at every base just like you have to have multiple hangers to protect your satellites makes logical sense--why have a team in South America saving the day in mainland China when you can send the team in Australia or wherever? And making sure you have enough guys to handle the terror missions/abductions/base defenses that strike while one of your skyrangers is out means you have to keep a wider range of guys prepared and equipped. I like that idea, rather than everyone sharing the same six suits of armor. Are TU basically Action Points?
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Nov 27, 2013 02:35
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Maybe they can do multiple bases for the inevitable second expansion. Enemy Below? 
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Nov 27, 2013 02:40
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I am getting constant crashing during missions since updating to Enemy Within, any ideas?
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Nov 27, 2013 02:44
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People are telling me that I should let the first small scout pass by in my impossible runs. Why would I do that and get a ton of panic? 
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Nov 27, 2013 02:46
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TastyLemonDrops posted:People are telling me that I should let the first small scout pass by in my impossible runs. Why would I do that and get a ton of panic?
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Nov 27, 2013 02:48
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TastyLemonDrops posted:People are telling me that I should let the first small scout pass by in my impossible runs. Why would I do that and get a ton of panic? Not scrambling fighters against a UFO prompts a second larger UFO to show up. This is the one that scans and shoots down satellites. Letting the first UFO (small scout) go spawns a larger (medium scout) which is just as easy to shoot down. It comes with more aliens but you end up salvaging more which is needed if you're rushing satellites. Don't do this more than once. By the time they UFOs pop up again I think letting them by triggers a battleship.
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Nov 27, 2013 02:49
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Ravenfood posted:You get a large scout as a follow-up flyby, which you can shoot down for more goodies. The early money can maybe get you an extra satellite up in time, which saves you more panic in the short-medium run. On impossible, it might be a good idea to just plan on losing a continent, so one sacrifical panic for faster sat coverage is probably worth it. Huh. That's actually interesting. And since the first UFO is over your home continent, you already have the bonus for it and don't really care. I'll give it a shot! My Ironman Impossible Marathon games do need a lot more money than usual.
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Nov 27, 2013 02:50
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Also don't do it if the UFO comes close to the 10th - the large scout might come too late for you to build satellites for the month.
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Nov 27, 2013 02:53
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TastyLemonDrops posted:Huh. That's actually interesting. And since the first UFO is over your home continent, you already have the bonus for it and don't really care. I'll give it a shot! My Ironman Impossible Marathon games do need a lot more money than usual. I'm working up the nerve to do an I/I now myself. It was bastardly hard in EU, and I'm thinking EW just might be worse. Also, I probably only got through the first months in EU because I abused the poo poo out of the overwatch flank bug. I also abused Not Created Equally, I'm starting to not like that option. While soldier variety is nice, I think training roulette covers that better and NCE just means I only use supersoldiers. I just completed C/I and Army of Four using zero MEC troopers, and it was easy. Probably because all four of my guys had more than 100 aim and at least 90 will. Second Wave options are mostly geared at making a greater challenge, but that one is just a straight up buff to XCOM troopers. Yeah, in the first mission you might have a couple 55 aim weaklings, but you get to base and have a pile of randomized soldiers to choose from.
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Nov 27, 2013 02:56
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If they're going to take sleeves away then they should add tattoo options.
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Nov 27, 2013 02:59
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poptart_fairy posted:Maybe they can do multiple bases for the inevitable second expansion. Enemy Below? X-Com: Enemy Mine. 
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Nov 27, 2013 03:14
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Lotish posted:X-Com: Enemy Mine. oh my god Took me far, far, far too long to notice that you'd shopped this.
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Nov 27, 2013 03:16
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