This is what Potsdam saysquote:The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine. Then in 1971 we have this: http://www.niraikanai.wwma.net/pages/archive/rev71.html It looks like America determined with this agreement that Japan should be the ones to control such minor islands like Diaoyu from that point forward. Yes, I read the guys lovely argument about semantics w/r/t sovereignty vs. administrative control, which doesn't support mainland China's claim at all. How about you link me something with substance or refute what I am saying?
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Nov 27, 2013 05:06
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It's adorable how many Pro-PRC lowais there are in this thread. All of whom are sitting comfortably in their Western parent's basements.
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Nov 27, 2013 05:12
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Well I am not sure what the ADIZ was supposed to achieved, as the Chinese claims were that they would use force to enforce it. Which is pretty blatantly in breach of the UN charter and conventions they use to claim their ability to put one up unilaterally. Andrew Erckson, Professor US Naval War College posted:http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2013/11/25/watch-this-space-chinas-new-air-defense-zone/Particularly problematic is the fact that official Chinese statements imply that Beijing intends to use military force if necessary to ensure that all aircraft comply with Beijing’s instructions within its declared ADIZ. This is an unrealistic expectation, as an ADIZ is not synonymous with national airspace Naval War College Review posted:Presently, foreign observers worry that the East China Sea ADIZ will become part of a larger pattern of Beijing’s refusing to adhere fully to existing international norms and standards even as it pursues the benefits of the system whose functioning they underwrite. Chinese international legal behavior vis-à-vis the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea offers examples of Beijing promoting an extreme minority position with an excessive notion of a coastal state’s right to control waterspace beyond its territorial water This is a perfect example of China's inept diplomacy. Unilaterally declaring things that will overlap on your neighbours and then expecting them to negiotate post-facto is not going to gain you any favors, and as in this instance gets you ignored, as the B-52 overflights demonstrated. So they will have put themselves in a position where they need to shoot someone down and provide a Casus belli for retaliation. Or they not going to be able to enforce it, and look like idiots. It really looks like a lose-lose for the Chinese leadership here. In other news, the Liaoning(中国人民解放军海军辽宁舰) has gone to the area for "scientific research, tests and military drills". Reuters, and the GW has left the Philippines and traveled to the same area for "exercises" with the JMSDF http://www.cpf.navy.mil/news.aspx/030308. Hopefully cooler heads prevail and nothing stupid happens.
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Nov 27, 2013 05:14
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One of the announcements out of the latest plenum was that civilian aerospace was being expanded within China. The PLA kept very tight-fisted control of all Chinese airspace up until recently and they have been obstinate about relinquishing enough for civilian air development at every step. Maybe the expansion of Chinese aerospace has something to do with internal politics about throwing the PLAAF a bone?
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Nov 27, 2013 05:35
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Arakan posted:This is what Potsdam says Again, you dismiss the difference between sovereignty and administrative control, when in reality that is a pretty massive difference. It's the difference between being a nation and being a colony, for example. A lot of law is going to ride on these exact semantics, and dismissing his argument as semantics is basically dismissing 90% of all legal arguments relating to treaties, contracts, statutes, or... well, anything in the law. Potsdam also, given its context, stripped Japan of all sovereign rights to any islands which weren't specifically stated (it was basically "you can't keep anything you conquered", now shoo). You're right that it's not open and shut, but the argument is a lot stronger than you give it credit for. Especially if you assume that the Potsdam declaration did, in fact, strip Japan of sovereign rights to the Diaoyu islands. Then, at best, the Okinawa Reversion Agreement is giving Japan something the US has no right to give-you can't sign away someone else's territory, after all. I mean, China couldn't sign a treaty with Mexico giving it California. Which would mean any claim derived from that is invalid. quote:Yes, I read the guys lovely argument about semantics w/r/t sovereignty vs. administrative control, which doesn't support mainland China's claim at all. How about you link me something with substance or refute what I am saying? You're right that his argument supports Taiwanese dominion over the region. The mainland Chinese ones are weaker, in that they come from the exact same place but weren't technically the recognized successor government to China. Of course, the main thing that both Chinas want is the islands out of Japanese hands, so giving them to Taiwan would probably be acceptable, if a bit aggravating, to the PRC. There's other arguments based on the historical record as well: http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/the-inconvenient-truth-behind-the-diaoyusenkaku-islands/ Point is, this issue is not nearly as one-sided as the Japanese government would like to claim it is, which is probably why it isn't willing to risk impartial mediation.
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Nov 27, 2013 07:06
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Arakan posted:What does watching Western media have to do with anything? Why are you trying to frame the argument this way? Some poster was talking about cultural exports. Western media is a cultural export, I'm not framing anything that hasn't been framed already. WarpedNaba posted:Musing over the dangers of Ultranationalism and revisionism between two world powers with a rather aggressive approach to diplomacy and contested border disputes = Totally paranoid of a land invasion in Asia starting WW3. Makes perfect sense. This is exactly the kind of nebulous fearmongering and Orientalism I'm talking about. You might find it odd, but I agree with most of what you've said. I'm simply highlighting the extreme contradictions in your yellow peril: - Current Chinese culture is somehow unfit for consumption because real Chinese culture, the kind that make importers comfortable, is pre-modern China. I guess everything after Mao isn't Chinese right? I mean, I agree with you that most imported Chinese 'culture' in the west is manufactured orientalist bullshit, but saying that China needs to bend over backwards and reproduce Imperial culture for export is really stretching it. - The Chinese military is a piece of crap, that is true. Yet, you're afraid of an ultranationalist China doing.... what, exactly? Bowing down to unarmed American bombers? Name your threat, not just 'I don't like them Chinese' bullshit. Are you actually saying China should have escalated by throwing fighters at the bombers? - Sure, I agree with you that nobody is saying China didn't suffer through imperialism, because that would be rude. They just suffered 'imperialism.' You can't deny the intentional use of airquotes around the 'Hundred Years of Humiliation'... I wonder what that means. Perhaps we can laugh at the term because this naive postcolonial power thought its past status as a victim of imperialism actually meant something! - The Sino-Soviet split, the Nixon-Mao meeting and current Chinese diplomatic strategy are all part of the everlasting Chinese character? Because otherwise, I don't know how you can lump an ideological split between communists in the same category as, say, a modern day humanitarian aid snub to the Philippines. Again, I don't disagree that both impacted foreign relations negatively, but your fearmongering and essentialism is lumping in completely different foreign policy decisions into one big intellectual dustbin of 'China bad at diplomacy forever.' - Planned flights by western powers are set in stone, and apparently too inflexible to work around a known ADIZ. - Realpolitik is not allowed for the Chinese, because apparently fighting over resources over disputed territory is morally wrong. This isn't 'they're just as bad.' In fact, I agree with most of your facts! It's just that your analysis consists of inherently contradictory judgments that make no sense unless you adopt a 'China is always wrong' perspective. You say China is aggressive, willing to attack other countries; in the same breath you say it's weak, has no power projection. You give examples of China screwing up diplomacy because it's too stupid to engage in realpolitik, but at the same time say that it's only interested in the islands for its natural resources. None of your statements add up - China is simultaneously strong and weak, stupid and conniving, a victim and playing the victim card. At least they're not greedy moneychangers who control global finances right? And of course quote:We are not discussing American cultural exportation nor its nuances, but using it as a comparative. When was the last time anyone in the West found a Chinese novel series or a computer game worth playing? How many people outside of the USA have seen Avatar? How many people outside of China have seen Chungking Express? Aside from Wuxia and the occasional Internal Affairs clone, what part of Chinese culture or neo-confucianism in media can cross 20km of a strait? This is silly, because the Internal Affairs clone won an oscar and most French movies can't make it past the channel to England, and yet I don't hear anyone complaining that English or French culture is unfit for consumption. Hell, even British shows have to be remade in the US in order for them to be consumed. It all has to do with how much power you have in the world, not whether your culture is intrinsically exportable. American exported culture isn't actual American culture; you live in boring houses and work in dead offices and shop at boring strip malls. The poo poo you see in movies, you can never afford. Yet the people in these fictions just happen to be in America and speak English, so it gets exported and stamped as American culture. If China had the level of power America has, then hell yes you'd see lots of enjoyable Chinese media that bears absolutely no relevance to modern Chinese life just like how American media (looking at you, Avatar) doesn't relate to your daily humdrum neo-Protestant life. quote:How is this suddenly so important when you had to wait 50+ years to even begin putting propaganda production for domestic consumption into place?  Arakan posted:This is what Potsdam says The issue with the 1971 agreement was that it was made in secret without China's notice. That's what China complained about in the pdf scan of the communique I linked above. I think the point was, the US didn't actually own the islands, just administered them, so when the US returned the islands it had to make the decision with all claimants at the table (presumable PRC, ROC, and Japan), not just one party. Also, are you distinguishing the mainland's claim from Taiwan's claim? Both parties claim (and have been very forward about sending ships and stuff over) the islands. Do you think Taiwan's claim is more legitimate? flatbus fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Nov 27, 2013 |
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Nov 27, 2013 07:18
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post due to some 50c bullshittery. More fool I, I guess.
I guess what I'm not getting is thisPotsdam posted:The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine. Cairo Declaration posted:"The Three Great Allies are fighting this war to restrain and punish the aggression of Japan. They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion. It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China. Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed. So there's Potsdam and the Cairo Declaration. But Japan took control of Diaoyu in 1895, so all the treaties don't reference China's claim or with the 1971 one it reinforces Japan's claim. Unless you don't apply 1914 to the second part of that sentence but that seems a bit of a stretch. Arakan fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Nov 27, 2013 |
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Nov 27, 2013 07:45
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Cairo Declaration posted:"The Three Great Allies are fighting this war to restrain and punish the aggression of Japan. They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion. It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China. Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed. Formosa and the Pescadores were all ceded to Japan before WWI in the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. If those two territories under that treaty are counted as 'stolen from the Chinese,' who's to say the rest of the Chinese territory ceded in that treaty (or that year, 1895... not sure if the treaty explicitly mentioned the Diaoyu islands) doesn't count as well? It wouldn't make sense to restrict it to post-1914 territories since two of the 3 examples given were ceded much earlier. Edit: vvv Dammit I always get it confused. I saw it 'not in theatres' so I was never sure what the real title was. And yup, I agree that explicit legal restrictions are definitely going to impact cultural exports. I was taking issue with the idea that Chinese culture somehow had an intrinsic (e.g. naturally conservative, naturally racially homogenous, and other  people were spouting) inability to make cultural exports.
flatbus fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Nov 27, 2013 |
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Nov 27, 2013 07:57
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flatbus posted:This is silly, because the Internal Affairs clone won an oscar and You can also never depict China or Chinese people who aren't ruled by a strong central government. See this week's Analects for a recent example and some analysis of why this is detrimental to the Chinese film industry. With a wider scope, it is these kinds of policies that are detrimental to all Chinese cultural exports and soft power in general. It's interesting that the best examples of influential Chinese films people came up with were both Hong Kong films, one of which was actually produced during the colonial period. Who can name a real, mainland Chinese film with significant presence and influence in the west? Before you say Crouching Tiger, that was a major co-production and most of the key people involved were Hong Kongers and Taiwanese. Zhang Yimou's To Live is the only big contender I can think of. And it still doesn't have that much name recognition in America.
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Nov 27, 2013 07:59
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flatbus posted:Formosa and the Pescadores were all ceded to Japan before WWI in the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. If those two territories under that treaty are counted as 'stolen from the Chinese,' who's to say the rest of the Chinese territory ceded in that treaty (or that year, 1895... not sure if the treaty explicitly mentioned the Diaoyu islands) doesn't count as well? It wouldn't make sense to restrict it to post-1914 territories since two of the 3 examples given were ceded much earlier. Yea I mean that's all it says. They weren't more explicit than that, or at least I can't find anything, and nothing references Diaoyu by any of its names. I guess that's why these issues arise in the first place. Bloodnose posted:Zhang Yimou's To Live is the only big contender I can think of. And it still doesn't have that much name recognition in America. I know a lot of people who like 'Hero', but my friends are nerds.
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Nov 27, 2013 08:08
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What about House of Flying Daggers, another Zhang Yimou film? That seemed pretty popular at the time, although I guess it's possible I just have weird friends. e: Or Hero, yeah. What that guy said.
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Nov 27, 2013 08:09
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Speaking of films like Hero, House of Flying Daggers, and all those big budget martial arts movies in the early 2000 had major backing from Hollywood pictures. Even the production crew were mainly comprised of Hongers. Hero? Shot by Christopher Doyle. Who did he work with? Wong Kar loving Wai. Another Honger. It's only the past 3-4 years that mainland movies produce mega multi million domestic box office hits (but most of them still suck). Mainland entertainment for TV and movies were few and far between. Everyone in China watched horrible TVB Honger poo poo during the 90's. And listened to Cantopop. And ate horrible sweet bread from Hong Kong/Taiwan (which in turn imported from Japanese). Sure Hong Kong was a colony and avoided mainland style censorship and propaganda, but it was not some isolated entity. Early talent and businesses were mostly comprised of refugees from the mainland after WW2 and the Communist troubles. Bloodnose posted:First of all, it's Infernal Affairs, and second of all, it's a Hong Kong film, not Chinese. You may think I'm splitting hairs but it's an important distinction. Infernal Affairs would actually never be permitted in China (and it wasn't shown in China either) because of censorship issues. I work in Sino-American co-productions and one of the most difficult censorship hurdles to pass is that the Chinese film censorship board does not allow movies in which criminals go unpunished. You can't have an anti-hero, you can't have a gentleman thief, you can't even depict someone who breaks blatantly unfair laws for an entirely just cause. Criminals are criminals and they must be punished. Infernal Affairs was screened in China but with an alternative ending. I think Singapore also screened the alternative version as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytT0z3KBMdg An influential Mainland Chinese film? The East is Red. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wW8Bezrwjw Actually, it's not that influential. It's more of a personal favourite of mine. Ballet dancers holding AK-47's and doing jettes. Still haven't had a chance to watch it in person. Not a movie, but I heartily recommend this TV series/novel : A Bejinger in New York. It deals with immigration in the 90's. That's the time when 400 RMB (65 USD) was the average monthly salary. People took overnight trains to try KFC and fought each other to line up in MacDonald's. And watching the Titanic means blowing a quarter of your monthly pay check. caberham fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Nov 27, 2013 |
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Nov 27, 2013 08:11
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Bloodnose posted:First of all, it's Infernal Affairs, and second of all, it's a Hong Kong film, not Chinese. You may think I'm splitting hairs but it's an important distinction. Infernal Affairs would actually never be permitted in China (and it wasn't shown in China either) because of censorship issues. I work in Sino-American co-productions and one of the most difficult censorship hurdles to pass is that the Chinese film censorship board does not allow movies in which criminals go unpunished. You can't have an anti-hero, you can't have a gentleman thief, you can't even depict someone who breaks blatantly unfair laws for an entirely just cause. Criminals are criminals and they must be punished. I'd say Hero, but that's about it.
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Nov 27, 2013 08:15
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Wasn't People Mountain People Sea screened on the mainland? That was pretty much entirely about institutional corruption and I don't recall many of the criminals getting punished or anything.
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Nov 27, 2013 08:57
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So how do the people in power in China see the capability of their military themselves? I don't think they are so crazy to think that starting a war is a good idea.
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Nov 27, 2013 10:48
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quote:Current Chinese culture is somehow unfit for consumption because real Chinese culture, the kind that make importers comfortable, is pre-modern China. I guess everything after Mao isn't Chinese right? I mean, I agree with you that most imported Chinese 'culture' in the west is manufactured orientalist bullshit, but saying that China needs to bend over backwards and reproduce Imperial culture for export is really stretching it. When you take into account the cultural revolution as well as the overwhelming power of Western culture in a globalized world, yes they basically have to show pre-modern China because that's the only way to convey something that's distinctly Chinese that would be recognized as distinctly Chinese to non-Chinese people. The experiences and day to day lives of your average Chinese probably aren't so radically different that depictions of modern Chinese culture would be recognized by most as being distinctly Chinese, at least not aside from the most trivial and superficial things such as food and whatnot. There's two sides to the coin of cultural export. One internal and the other external. We've discussed the internal problems (the heavily conservative and insular nature of Chinese culture, for example) but there are also external problems, ie. western culture is such a powerful force that displacing it would be next to impossible in this globalized society of ours. This isn't even something exclusive to Chinese culture as well. The Japanese are often highlighted as an example of an insular and conservative culture being exported but I don't think it really has been. The Japanese have not only been very, very westernized (and were very quick to welcome westernization basically since Europeans began trading with them) and this is reflected in their cultural exports (Anime was basically ripped off from Disney for example) but even with that huge advantage it's still considered a fringe thing for nerds outside Japan. India, Taiwan, and Korea have similar challenges in any attempt to export their culture. So, no, modern China isn't suddenly non-Chinese, but modern China has also been so heavily influenced by Western culture that much of it wouldn't be recognized as distinctly Chinese outside of China. Which means that you need to go for stuff that is, which is typically stuff set in the Imperial period (Martial arts films notwithstanding.) You can grumble about "orientalism" all you want but the fact of the matter is that the manufactured orientalist bullshit is the only stuff that's recognized as distinctly Chinese at this point.
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Nov 27, 2013 15:40
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I think there's ways to show the modern culture without it just being Western culture. This is Taiwan which is a whole nother can of worms but I watched this music video and was struck with how well it encapsulates Taiwanese culture and found myself comparing which aspects are similar/different to Western cultures. Some of the stuff is common to China too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX2GsMj7154 Things like reading comic books instead of focusing in class are similar, but then the uniforms and sharing delicious Yakult with classmates are different. The bonfire and girlfriend is really similar, and the entering a company is pretty similar too, but in the middle there's the mandatory military service which is different. And so on. I should just Taiwan up every thread the way Bloodnose Hong Kongs every thing~ Seriously though I don't have something China specific that is that ideal off hand, but I think sitcoms like 愛情公寓 and dating shows like 非誠無擾 can give a decent lens into what's going on with modern young people in China. I guess it depends on your definition of culture. I'm interested in people and different places to the extent that small things like "Most people in the US start dating in high school, whereas in Asia it's more common to start dating in college" are interesting enough cultural differences to interest me. Familial relations are also COMPLETELY different too. Socializing is very different. I don't know. I feel like the "culture" you are talking about is more like a bigger overarching civilization type thing where people wear traditional garb and whatnot. I am pretty much as far from an anthropologist as it gets but I believe culture is more than that. e: I think I completely misread your post and your point is not that mahjong and such are too insignificant to be considered Chinese culture but rather that these things would not be recognized as Chinese because nobody in the West knows dirt about Asia. Well, cultural exports would be a good way to introduce it. You have generations of Americans knowing about things like rice balls and school uniforms via anime, why not know about some things about China too? The bigger problem is that the media produced by the Sinosphere is kinda terrible. Taiwanese soaps are considered the "good quality" ones and they look like something filmed in a high schooler's backyard sometimes. Novels are better but hard to translate. hitension fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Nov 27, 2013 |
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Nov 27, 2013 16:39
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Powerlurker posted:I'd say Hero, but that's about it. Hero was a horrible movie. All of Jet Li's movies since he left Hong Kong cinema have been utter crap. He was making very good movies when he was in HK. But then he was in several horrible movies in America. His Chinese movies have been better (obviously) than his American movies, but they are still utter and horrible crap compared to his HK period. Hilariously Jet Li did a series of movies in HK that were nakedly anti-western/anti-imperialist and highly culturally Chinese-centric and nationalistic. These movies would have been just at home coming out of China, but nobody in China would have made such a good series. Why? yY guess is that it seems cliched but when you ask people to make an artistic product, they have to have a certain freedom of conscience to make a work of art. Otherwise, all the other pieces are there, but you can tell the movies has no feeling. Also, house of flying dagger was a piece of poo poo. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was perhaps one of the best movies I have ever seen, but Ang Lee's cinema influences are very westernized and his taste reflects it. The period pieces coming out of Chinese cinema often have very little in common with Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:37
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Hero is a good example because it's a sympathetic portrayal of the most cruel, murderous, anti-culture Emperor ever.
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Nov 27, 2013 21:35
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Mozi posted:Hero is a good example because it's a sympathetic portrayal of the most cruel, murderous, anti-culture Emperor ever. Look dude if you want to make an omelette you gotta bury a few scholars alive. I mean he unified China! 
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Nov 27, 2013 21:38
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Fojar38 posted:When you take into account the cultural revolution as well as the overwhelming power of Western culture in a globalized world, yes they basically have to show pre-modern China because that's the only way to convey something that's distinctly Chinese that would be recognized as distinctly Chinese to non-Chinese people. The experiences and day to day lives of your average Chinese probably aren't so radically different that depictions of modern Chinese culture would be recognized by most as being distinctly Chinese, at least not aside from the most trivial and superficial things such as food and whatnot. Yes, this is my point, except you seem to view it as a positive. Your logic is pretty circular - because westerners only recognize pre-modern China as Chinese, Chinese exports must conform to those stereotypes because that's the only way it'll be accepted? I mean, what you say about expectations is certainly true, but don't you think this is a bad thing rather than a policy recommendation for cultural exports? What is this Western culture that is so essential that it pushes fundamental cultural constructs like cuisine and language into being merely 'superficial'? That's a fierce defense of Western culture where if it gets exported to a different country, then gets synthesized and assimilated, it's still Western and somehow not this new cultural synthesis. Anime and Disney is just one such ridiculous comparison - if your point is that modern China's westernized culture is unrecognizable from American culture, then why is anime recognized as distinctly Japanese despite its western origins? I have friends who watch K-dramas and J-dramas, and those settings are essentially as 'western' as you can imagine - glitzy shopping malls and nice cars and poo poo - but they still get distinctly recognized as foreign.
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Nov 28, 2013 17:25
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Mozi posted:Hero is a good example because it's a sympathetic portrayal of the most cruel, murderous, anti-culture Emperor ever. That's not actually true. The only substantial historical records for that period of history are in Sima Qian's "Shiji," and Sima Qian was a historian of the western Han- the dynasty directly after Qin. Sima Qian had a bit of a grudge against the Han dynasty, but it was obviously impolitic to say so directly, so basically he used Qin as a punching bag to point out Han's problems. This wasn't a singular incident either, because Jia Yi's famous "Guo Qin Lun" (which Sima Qian appends to his work in the appropriate location as a footnote of sorts) does the exact same thing. In fact, this sort of sideways criticism is common in Chinese historiography. A careful reading of the "Shiji" reveals that the Han actually continued all of the bad things Qin was doing- and made it even worse and more effective in some cases. This also goes to show that, well, Qin wasn't that bad. The reason Qin fell apart so quickly wasn't its brutality (after all Xiang Yu who helps overthrow Qin buries an entire army of Qin soldiers alive...), but because of complex regional-political issues that we don't really have access to anymore. Sima Qian basically says this. And actually, this entire issue was hashed out by historical commentators in the Song dynasty (the Chinese loved writing about historical writings), and you have Ou Yangxiu and the Su Father/Brothers saying, yeah, basically when they're talking about Qin they mean Han. So , I know people love to say that poo poo about Qin, but it's not really a useful or true or even been accepted in Chinese historiography for like a millennium. So Hero isn't a bad film for that particular reason. At least, the sympathetic portrayal isn't anything more outlandish than the vast array of Chinese and Taiwanese dramas portraying the Qing emperors as nice guys. PS I also want to point out an issue that anyone can go check directly in the Book of Han or Shiji, which is that the Qin Emperor did not "burn the books." He collected them in his capital. His capital was captured by Liu Bang (founder of the Han), but he was temporarily forced to give it to his rival Xiang Yu, who then burnt the poo poo out of it. The books were burnt at that time. Barto fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 28, 2013 18:11
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China has decided to raise the ante. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-25144465 quote:China has sent warplanes to its newly declared air defence zone in the East China Sea, state media reports.
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Nov 28, 2013 20:35
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Lawman 0 posted:China has decided to raise the ante. Is this really going to change anything? I mean, obviously the destabilisation here is pretty awful, but it feels like they're doubling down on a bluff that was just revealed as such, and I feel like if other countries were going to back down on this, they would have done so sooner.
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Nov 29, 2013 02:54
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The Lord of Hats posted:Is this really going to change anything? I mean, obviously the destabilisation here is pretty awful, but it feels like they're doubling down on a bluff that was just revealed as such, and I feel like if other countries were going to back down on this, they would have done so sooner. Well the other countries can't back down, as they didn't really do anything. China's ADIZ is a pretty weird thing, they have pushed it out into a sorta sovereignty salient. And are not following the rules regarding to what you can and can't do in your ADIZ's. Specifically china requires all aircraft traveling into or through the ADIZ to follow the Chinese rules. quote:http://eng.mod.gov.cn/Press/2013-11/23/content_4476143.htmFirst, aircraft flying in the East China Sea Air Defense Identification Zone must abide by these rules. This is different to the American, Japanese and Korean ADIZ's, which only "apply to aircraft bound for U.S. territorial airspace" http://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/a9b8e92d-2c8d-4779-9925-0defea93325c/(links to PDF) and similar rules for Japan/Korea. A good discussion of it is here http://son-of-gadfly-on-the-wall.blogspot.co.nz/2013/11/why-everybody-is-furious-at-china-for.html. Other statements from Chinese Generals seem to indicate they don't understand the legal weight of a ADIZ (ie you can't just shoot stuff down in your ADIZ as it is not sovereign airspace, it is just a boundary you set so you have sufficient space to intercept aircraft heading for your sovereign airspace). quote:http://www.scmp.com/news/china-insider/article/1367110/hostile-aircraft-could-be-shot-down-air-defence-zone-pla-generalA PLA air force general has warned that any foreign aircraft disobeying warnings and deemed to be “hostile” could be shot down in China’s newly-established air defense identification zone (ADIZ), Chinese media reported on Wednesday. So the main points are it's not that China isn't allowed a ADIZ (they are), the problems are that they unilaterally placed it overlapping their neighbours, and to date have not entered into any meaningful and good faith negotiations regarding the establishment of it. quote:http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2013/11/27/Whats-wrong-with-Chinas-Air-Defence-Identification-Zone-%28and-whats-not%29.aspxIf China’s new zone did not include disputed maritime territory, if its requirements for compliance applied only to aircraft heading into Chinese airspace, and if neighbours like Japan and South Korea had been consulted ahead of the announcement, then there would be little or nothing for others to object to. Indeed, it could have been part of a wider strategy of cooperation to reduce maritime security risks in North Asia.
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Nov 29, 2013 03:42
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Did China fly in the planes after the US bombers were fly in? Were the Chinese planes in the zone after the US bombers leave? hitension posted:I should just Taiwan up every thread the way Bloodnose Hong Kongs every thing~ Do it.  quote:Seriously though I don't have something China specific that is that ideal off hand, but I think sitcoms like 愛情公寓 and dating shows like 非誠無擾 can give a decent lens into what's going on with modern young people in China. Those shows are made for a TV viewing audience and parts of it exaggerated. Yes, lots of Chinese have unrealistic expectations of buying a house and a car before marriage which causes a major shift in housing/economic policy. But there's a lot less drama in real life. Perhaps more passive aggressiveness, so that's why people enjoy seeing Jerry Springer style arguments in TV/movies. quote:The bigger problem is that the media produced by the Sinosphere is kinda terrible. Taiwanese soaps are considered the "good quality" ones and they look like something filmed in a high schooler's backyard sometimes. Novels are better but hard to translate. Wong Kar Wai is an amazing director, but it takes him forever to film movies. I think novels are the best media for cultural export. They give room for imagination/adaption/change, are relatively cheap cost-wise and books have a much longer shelf life compared to TV/music/movies. Nowadays everyone loves Murakami! flatbus posted:What is this Western culture that is so essential that it pushes fundamental cultural constructs like cuisine and language into being merely 'superficial'? That's a fierce defense of Western culture where if it gets exported to a different country, then gets synthesized and assimilated, it's still Western and somehow not this new cultural synthesis. Anime and Disney is just one such ridiculous comparison - if your point is that modern China's westernized culture is unrecognizable from American culture, then why is anime recognized as distinctly Japanese despite its western origins? I have friends who watch K-dramas and J-dramas, and those settings are essentially as 'western' as you can imagine - glitzy shopping malls and nice cars and poo poo - but they still get distinctly recognized as foreign. On a lighter note, Bukakke is distinctly Japanese in origin but has been thoroughly adapted by everyone else in the world. We don't call it, "multiple people ejecting loads of fluids onto a girl's face", it's just Bukakke. And if you call a California roll or some cream cheese filled piece of rice Japanese sushi I will butcher you like a Japanese officer in Nanjing.
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Nov 29, 2013 04:14
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quote:I think novels are the best media for cultural export. They give room for imagination/adaption/change, are relatively cheap cost-wise and books have a much longer shelf life compared to TV/music/movies. Nowadays everyone loves Murakami! Games, too. Sleeping Dogs wasn't made by a Chinese affiliate, but had a fair amount of consultation and became a pretty interesting peek into a modern-generation Godfather series and became a gateway for a few of my friends into Hong Kong settings. (Yes I'm aware it's chock full of inaccuracies and the Main Character couldn't speak Cantonese because he was played by a Korean. Baby steps.)
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Nov 29, 2013 05:11
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WarpedNaba posted:Games, too. Sleeping Dogs wasn't made by a Chinese affiliate, but had a fair amount of consultation and became a pretty interesting peek into a modern-generation Godfather series and became a gateway for a few of my friends into Hong Kong settings. Also the orcs and elves in Skyrim cannot speak their native languages.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:13
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synertia posted:Also the orcs and elves in Skyrim cannot speak their native languages. "Hong Kong is a made up fantasy kingdom and Chinese people are orcs" -synertia
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Nov 29, 2013 05:28
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WarpedNaba posted:Games, too. Sleeping Dogs wasn't made by a Chinese affiliate, but had a fair amount of consultation and became a pretty interesting peek into a modern-generation Godfather series and became a gateway for a few of my friends into Hong Kong settings. There's a lot of game development going on in China, but not much set in China which is weird, because I think it'd be an interesting setting for westerners. It's familiar enough superficially that you can get it, but alien enough that it's exotic. Honestly, I always thought a near-future China would be a fantastic place to set a cyberpunk game. It's divorced enough from the present that you can fit in some legitimate social commentary fairly easily, it's already very goddamn cyberpunk in the really big cities, and honestly it'd basically be set in real life China except your main character wears sunglasses at night.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:34
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A game set around Yaoguai in modern China would be bitchin', tru dat.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:37
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The only thing that would get me into another zombie shooting game would be to set it in China. MJ12 posted:There's a lot of game development going on in China, but not much set in China which is weird, because I think it'd be an interesting setting for westerners. It's familiar enough superficially that you can get it, but alien enough that it's exotic. Honestly, I always thought a near-future China would be a fantastic place to set a cyberpunk game. It's divorced enough from the present that you can fit in some legitimate social commentary fairly easily, it's already very goddamn cyberpunk in the really big cities, and honestly it'd basically be set in real life China except your main character wears sunglasses at night. Base it on "Looper" and I think you've got yourself a hit.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:40
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MJ12 posted:There's a lot of game development going on in China, but not much set in China which is weird, because I think it'd be an interesting setting for westerners. It's familiar enough superficially that you can get it, but alien enough that it's exotic. Honestly, I always thought a near-future China would be a fantastic place to set a cyberpunk game. It's divorced enough from the present that you can fit in some legitimate social commentary fairly easily, it's already very goddamn cyberpunk in the really big cities, and honestly it'd basically be set in real life China except your main character wears sunglasses at night. Didn't the latest Deus Ex have a section in Hong Kong? I seem to remember that being pretty neat, but it has been a while since I played the game.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:46
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It was a place called Hengsha which was less HK, more coastal mainland.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:49
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Wanamingo posted:Didn't the latest Deus Ex have a section in Hong Kong? I seem to remember that being pretty neat, but it has been a while since I played the game. I think he means not set in Hong Kong, which is fair because there's a shitton of China you can explore on the mainland or even just Taiwan or something.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:51
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muike posted:It was a place called Hengsha which was less HK, more coastal mainland. Ah, right. Though looking it up the original Deus Ex had a section in Hong Kong, so that must've been what I was thinking of.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:51
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All the Deus Ex's have had major segments in China. I thought after Japan, it basically already was the go to cyberpunk destination.caberham posted:On a lighter note, Bukakke is distinctly Japanese in origin but has been thoroughly adapted by everyone else in the world. We don't call it, "multiple people ejecting loads of fluids onto a girl's face", it's just Bukakke. And if you call a California roll or some cream cheese filled piece of rice Japanese sushi I will butcher you like a Japanese officer in Nanjing. That's a really fuckin' weird example, but yeah, Japan has loads of mainstream cultural exports and has had since the 18th century. They haven't been nearly as orientalized as the rest of Asia (and I think we know why :risingsunflag:  :imperialeuropeflag:). Modern Chinese and Korean culture being really obscure over here though I totally agree with.Also Hero was great you haters.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:52
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VideoTapir posted:The only thing that would get me into another zombie shooting game would be to set it in China. Sounds risky. If some idiot official takes it out of context as being in any way anti-China it could not only end up with restrictions on sales in China but also result in more general retaliation against the publisher, etc.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:55
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Retaliation how? Aside from denying them an admittedly huge market (Which you can go around by setting it in  North Korea anyway), what retaliation could a Chinese official take against a games publisher without making his country or himself into a laughing stock?
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Nov 29, 2013 07:09
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WarpedNaba posted:Retaliation how? Aside from denying them an admittedly huge market (Which you can go around by setting it in Denying them a huge market as well as potentially altering terms for future access to a growing market is a pretty big deal. Especially since a lot of game publishers are parts of larger corporate groups with significant interests in other media. "Your competitors get to make money and build a brand here, you don't" is pretty much the complete opposite of laughable or ineffective. You'd be surprised how paranoid execs can get over things like that, especially since most of the processes involved are non-transparent and rather arbitrary. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 07:32
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