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It totally comes across as patronizing. There's no way Superman actually thinks that fat guy could make a difference at all if something happened. He's just saying that to be nice, like he thinks the guy is too stupid to realize that Superman could neutralize any threat before he even knows something's wrong. What a prick.
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Nov 28, 2013 06:39
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Don't put words in superman's mouth.  Superman's his own man, man.
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Nov 28, 2013 06:58
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Superman doesn't lie.
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Nov 28, 2013 07:03
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Kellsterik posted:Showed this panel to one of my friends as an example of a great depiction of Superman, he couldn't see it as anything but incredibly patronizing to have the Man of Steel be like "yep, all three of us are definitely on the same level here!" Clearly your friend is dead inside. A shell of a person who once cared.
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Nov 28, 2013 07:09
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Lurdiak posted:It totally comes across as patronizing. There's no way Superman actually thinks that fat guy could make a difference at all if something happened. He's just saying that to be nice, like he thinks the guy is too stupid to realize that Superman could neutralize any threat before he even knows something's wrong. I'm sorry that you are dead inside.
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Nov 28, 2013 08:09
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You can see which people are That Guy in real life. In this case, That Guy who thinks he's dr. House, and sneers at anyone showing compassion or politeness towards others. Hey, why support anyone trying to do anything, they'll probably amount to nothing anyways and it's not worth the breath. Smart people (like me) don't NEED emotional support, 
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Nov 28, 2013 08:46
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Mister Roboto posted:You can see which people are That Guy in real life.  Wow, that's quite the profile you've written up for this guy, but I think you are drawing a lot of conclusions on his personality based on an internet forum post! It's a little offputting.
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Nov 28, 2013 09:17
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To be fair, it's Lurdiak.
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Nov 28, 2013 09:21
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I just don't like Superman, y'all. I once spent 3 hours on the phone trying to talk a stranger out of committing suicide, but apparently thinking a corporate mascot fails to convey a believable message of compassion makes me a monster.
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Nov 28, 2013 09:31
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Hey cool you can do things and still be an rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 28, 2013 10:08
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Mr. Maltose posted:Hey cool you can do things and still be an rear end in a top hat. Yeah, well, go gently caress yourself.
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Nov 28, 2013 10:11
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I was referring to goons in general and their lack of empathy and refusal to be polite and show decency towards other people. Moving beyond who's an rear end in a top hat:     - Mister Miracle #4
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Nov 28, 2013 10:58
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From Wolverine and the X-Men Annual #1. The story takes place during the Infinity cross-over, and covers what happened to Kid Gladiator, after his dad (Gladiator, super-guardian and current Shi'ar emperor) ordered him back home from Earth. The following takes place after Kid Gladiator's involvement in a brutal battle, which he joined against his father's wishes. If it helps, just read the scene as space-emperor Superman and Superboy. Edit: Random complaint - The more I look at the weird cropping on the face at the bottom of the page, the more it annoys me. The art is mostly good (and fun), but that seems like bad panel work/planning. Madrox fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 28, 2013 12:12
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Lurdiak posted:It totally comes across as patronizing. There's no way Superman actually thinks that fat guy could make a difference at all if something happened. He's just saying that to be nice, like he thinks the guy is too stupid to realize that Superman could neutralize any threat before he even knows something's wrong. There's no way Superman actually thinks that Batman could make a difference at all if something happened. He's just saying that to be nice, like he thinks Batman is too stupid to realize that Superman could neutralize any threat before he even knows something's wrong. What a prick.
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Nov 28, 2013 20:00
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I think the panel is kind of mawkish too. It has nothing to do with the sentiment or the idea of Superman honoring the dignity and humanity of people without super-powers. That's like half the premise of Morrison's Action Comics, which I liked a lot. If the writer and penciler didn't want to be patronizing, they wouldn't have drawn the cop as a chubby, wall-eyed dude reaching for his gun for no clear reason, and they wouldn't have written him with the kind of "aw, geez, aw, Myrtle" dialect that suggests the writer's closest impression of blue-collar speech is reruns of the Honeymooners. The panel itself isn't about the cop having value or dignity that Superman recognizes. It's about Superman talking down to a dope. If the writer was interested in a moment of compassion and empathy, the cop wouldn't have just been a prop. He wouldn't need Superman's loving validation. (now I feel like Lex Luthor..)
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Nov 28, 2013 20:11
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Archyduke posted:I think the panel is kind of mawkish too. It has nothing to do with the sentiment or the idea of Superman honoring the dignity and humanity of people without super-powers. That's like half the premise of Morrison's Action Comics, which I liked a lot. If the writer and penciler didn't want to be patronizing, they wouldn't have drawn the cop as a chubby, wall-eyed dude reaching for his gun for no clear reason, and they wouldn't have written him with the kind of "aw, geez, aw, Myrtle" dialect that suggests the writer's closest impression of blue-collar speech is reruns of the Honeymooners. Why would you assume Superman would be talking down to anyone? Do you think Superman is the kind of person who becomes a condescending arsehole when he notices someones dialect.
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Nov 28, 2013 20:16
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Madkal posted:Why would you assume Superman would be talking down to anyone? Do you think Superman is the kind of person who becomes a condescending arsehole when he notices someones dialect. He read Grounded
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Nov 28, 2013 20:17
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Madkal posted:Why would you assume Superman would be talking down to anyone? Do you think Superman is the kind of person who becomes a condescending arsehole when he notices someones dialect. Because Superman's not real, and the cop isn't real either. A writer and an artist decided that the cop would look like that and say what he said, and they decided that Superman would respond in the way he did. If you're implying that Superman can't be written poorly, or with a sort of superior smugness that undercuts the astonishing humanism of Superman at his best, I have some bad news for you about J. Michael Straszcynski.
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Nov 28, 2013 20:25
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Superman was raised on a farm in Kansas. I don't think he'd be much one to judge dialects.
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Nov 28, 2013 20:29
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Malachite_Dragon posted:Superman was raised on a farm in Kansas. I don't think he'd be much one to judge dialects. If there's one thing bible belt farmers stereotypically are, it's tolerant!
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Nov 28, 2013 20:36
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Archyduke posted:Because Superman's not real, and the cop isn't real either. A writer and an artist decided that the cop would look like that and say what he said, and they decided that Superman would respond in the way he did. If you're implying that Superman can't be written poorly, or with a sort of superior smugness that undercuts the astonishing humanism of Superman at his best, I have some bad news for you about J. Michael Straszcynski. Yes he is a fictional character and we the reader can project whatever bias we have onto him. However, even though he can be very shittily written there is a base characterization of the the character that has been molded from decades of stories. To read a single panel of the character and immediately assume that Superman is being a condescending prick goes against any and all characterization the character has had. As for Grounded, yea it sucked and was a lovely portrayel of the character but that is just one story out of many many stories.
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Nov 28, 2013 20:43
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Like I said, in general I quite like the idea of scenes in which Superman interacts with people doing their jobs, or just running into him. I like the idea that Superman can find dignity and beauty in anybody. However, you know, it's not just an issue of sitting down and inventing a person in a job and putting them on the same page as Superman. You can't just plug in "Superman meets <firefighter>," "Superman meets <barista>" and churn out satisfying and compelling comics. If that was the case, "Grounded" would be good, instead of insulting and unethical on top of being boring. I usually dislike Ennis for his rather brutal cynicism, but he has written one of my favorite Superman panels, which I believe has been posted in this thread. It shows him hovering up in space looking down on Earth, thinking something like "If you all knew how much you were loved, you would never lift a hand in anger again." While part of this scene is intended to show how distant Superman sometimes feels to the planet he loves so dearly, it isn't the whole point of the scene. What I really like about it is that we're given, through the rest of the story, to trusting this Superman, and so when he looks on the little blue Earth and says that line, we as readers are inclined to believe him, and think a little more tenderly about the people around us. The panel is "about" Superman, but it's ABOUT living humanely and with kindness. I feel the same thing when I reread All-Star Superman. It's not that he talks to the girl on the ledge, or visits the children in the hospital because he's Superman and he's cool. What Morrison is suggesting is the other way around-- he's a Super Man because he lives a life in which the point of unimaginable power is creating a gentler Earth for other people. Superman comics should always be a kind of love story, about a guy who loves the entire Earth and, fantastically, has the means to express that love. That is, I would love to see a rewrite of the panel under discussion in which we meet this cop, we see some aspect of him, we think we know him, and then Superman shows us how to love him a little bit better, appreciate him a little bit more. Instead, what we have is a panel about how, gee, Superman sure is nice. In the version I want, it isn't about Superman throwing some guy a bone, it's about Superman really being touched and almost awed by the way humans live their lives and go through their days. This panel-- and again, Strasczynski's "Grounded"-- aren't about that. They're about how people blunder all over themselves for a chance to fawn at Superman's feet, and how Superman deigns to be nice to them (or in the case of "Grounded," disgustingly, NOT be nice to them) on his whims. I want comics that show us how larger-than-life versions of our own impulses-- like Superman-- can teach us how to aspire to kindness and virtue and whatever else. Not comics about how Superman is polite to Some Dude. Sorry I don't like this particular panel you all seem to like, but I feel like most of us still want some similar spark of humanism and joy from our Superman comics, and hopefully we can agree on that. I guess what rankles me about this particular panel is that it gestures at something important about the character, but just gets it slightly wrong in a way that sours the whole sentiment for me. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 28, 2013 20:53
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bobkatt013 posted:He read Grounded I thought we all agreed to not acknowledge Grounded as an entity.
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Nov 28, 2013 21:25
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Putting in my two cents on the Superman panel, I don't in any way think that Superman is being condescending. Superman's defining characteristic is he's a good person, first and foremost. Of course he's going to have respect for another person doing a job and isn't going to belittle them. I can imagine Superman saying that line in half a dozen ways from being polite and nice to joking around with the guy, but in a way where everyone is in on the joke and not making fun of the park official. And look, Superman's been at this superhero game a long time. For all he knows that park could have a guy with a kryptonite baseball bat or a red sun lamp generator, and he'll need Park Cop's help. It doesn't pay for Superman to write off us mere mortals. As for the X-Men Annual scan, there's so much goodness in that annual. From the fact that Kid Gladiator gets sent to the Super Guardian school (which he had spent all of his first appearance bitching about how great it was) and finds he hates it and is alone there, to how he realizes his time on Earth has made him stronger. It's also has the scene where Gladiator tells his son how he was like 5 years older before he dared disobey his Emperor like he did, and did so to less Warbird guards. I also loved how KG kept telling the story of how he beat up the Hulk. Then after he meets the Hulk during the War against the Builders, he changes to story to be the time he beat up Red Hulk. It was a subtle thing, but I loved it.
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Nov 28, 2013 22:07
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The problem with that panel is just that it's a lovely, lame panel that doesn't belong anywhere near this thread. Does anyone here really manage to find enough emotion from that one corny panel to call it touching and/or inspiring?
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Nov 28, 2013 22:08
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Bown posted:The problem with that panel is just that it's a lovely, lame panel that doesn't belong anywhere near this thread. Does anyone here really manage to find enough emotion from that one corny panel to call it touching and/or inspiring? Well, there's me. If you don't like the panel someone else posted, you are more than welcome to post your own, encouraged to do so even! What we don't like is you making GBS threads over someone elses contribution by calling it lame or lovely. We don't want people to hesitate to post what they think is a heartwarming panel. 
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Nov 29, 2013 01:42
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From Saga #14. The main characters, including the mother of one who just lost her husband, are hiding out at an elderly and reclusive author's house.    How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 02:15
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Archyduke posted:From Saga #14. The main characters, including the mother of one who just lost her husband, are hiding out at an elderly and reclusive author's house. Now that's a touching set of panels.
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Nov 29, 2013 04:11
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You know, I just realized that he's only got one eye, and now she's only got one ear. Wonder if that's supposed to be symbolic of something.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:27
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Holy poo poo how can people have so much negativity to say about Superman saying a nice thing to a cop. This lady at McDonalds wished me a good day. The gently caress was she trying to say?! Like I'm some rube who needs to hear that? gently caress her! It's nice that Superman still says dorky corny things. Wow. Instead of accepting that, let's insult the guy sharing the panel and get all aggressive that it isn't touching enough for you.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:50
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Chinaman7000 posted:Holy poo poo how can people have so much negativity to say about Superman saying a nice thing to a cop. This lady at McDonalds wished me a good day. The gently caress was she trying to say?! Like I'm some rube who needs to hear that? gently caress her! Hell yeah. I'm not the biggest Superman fan. But I do like some of his stuff, and you know, the stuff I have enjoyed features him being a kind man who understands and displays humility.
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Nov 29, 2013 06:24
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Seriously  between that and people racing to defend Abel's Stockholm Syndrome towards Cain, some of you have some very strange ideas about the phrase 'touching and inspiring panels'.
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Nov 29, 2013 06:40
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Chinaman7000 posted:Holy poo poo how can people have so much negativity to say about Superman saying a nice thing to a cop. This lady at McDonalds wished me a good day. The gently caress was she trying to say?! Like I'm some rube who needs to hear that? gently caress her! Is that what you're seeing in this thread? Because I'm seeing like, 5 posts saying the panel isn't particularly touching after the topic of being unable to convince a non-Superman fan of its value was brought up, and many more posts of people reacting like their lineage and religion had been attacked, complete with calling people who disagree with them about comics "assholes" or "dead inside". So, on-topic, Juston Seyfert is a kid who essentially has a pet Sentinel. He joined Avengers Academy and the Sentinel has made a lot of the mutant students and visitors very uncomfortable, especially since it sometimes yells about exterminating mutants, despite never acting violently and Juston's assurances that he's been reprogrammed. Despite the mistrust, Juston sticks by his friend.  One day, Phoenix-powered Emma Frost comes a-calling, seeking to eradicate the Sentinel as part of her mission to destroy every single Sentinel in the entire world. Considering her power level and the fact that we're talking about a genocidal robot, the Academy teachers tell Juston to let her do it, but Juston breaks down in tears and cries about how he loves the Sentinel. Just as Emma is about to nuke the thing, X-23, who knows what it's like to be treated as a disposable killing machine, jumps her while talking about free will, prompting the entire academy to dogpile Emma, telling her she has no right, etc. They're still no match for a Phoenix host. She blasts the Sentinel, damaging it badly and hurting Juston, who was piloting it from the inside. The Sentinel realizes that Juston will continue to endanger himself to protect it from this overpowered enemy.      As Juston breaks down in tears, Hank Pym tries to explain to Emma that being able to override its prime directive proves it was more than a machine, but she doesn't give a gently caress. X-23 promises to kill Emma the next time she sees her (which I unfortunately doubt will come to pass), and Emma flies off. As the students and faculty try to cheer Juston up, Quicksilver calls them a bunch of over-dramatic nerds from off-panel.  
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Nov 29, 2013 06:44
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Malachite_Dragon posted:Seriously I've figured out over the years that there's too distinct opinions to Supes: there's those that recognize the love inside him and how his greatest qualities have nothing to do with running faster than a speeding bullet. Then there are those that see him as someone with godlike powers seperated from mankind. The difference between a super man and a superman I guess. And the former will never be able to convince the latter to change their mind on their terms. The character is at his absolute best when the former mindset is in charge of his actions, but all too often that's not who gets to. In a similar vein, if you don't get what's moving about Cain and Abel's relationship, nothing will get you to.
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Nov 29, 2013 07:48
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Then... Avengers Academy. 
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Nov 29, 2013 08:20
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Lurdiak posted:Is that what you're seeing in this thread? Because I'm seeing like, 5 posts saying the panel isn't particularly touching after the topic of being unable to convince a non-Superman fan of its value was brought up, and many more posts of people reacting like their lineage and religion had been attacked, complete with calling people who disagree with them about comics "assholes" or "dead inside". I was getting some serious "Iron Giant vibes" off that. I know it isn't a panel but when I get Iron Giant vibes I just have to see this again. It is one of the saddest things ever (involving a Superman reference even) and if you don't find it touching at all, well you are just dead inside.
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Nov 29, 2013 08:44
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SynthOrange posted:Then... Avengers Academy. No! Avengers Academy was the good one! Avengers Arena is the bad one!
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Nov 29, 2013 09:06
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Spider-Ock just finished up a team-up with the teenage X-Men and the Hulk. The villain turned out to be an old colleague of Ock who was fuckin' around with gamma radiation and couldn't be stopped (he didn't turn into a Hulk though). However, Beast (with Bruce Banner's help) comes through though with a solution to contain him.  I think it's sweet when Spock isn't a total prick  Superior Spider-Man Team-Up Special
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Nov 29, 2013 09:12
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Makes me wonder what a heroic Doctor Octopus would read like. I wonder if the writer there is talking to himself (and every other bitter, middle aged nerd) and wished they could help their younger, awkward nerd self.
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Nov 29, 2013 10:02
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Mister Roboto posted:Makes me wonder what a heroic Doctor Octopus would read like. I've always wanted a What If along those lines.
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Nov 29, 2013 10:09
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