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General Battuta posted:I'm going to regret asking why, but... Have you ever thought about giving oral pleasure to an underage girl in zero g? Dan Simmons has.
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Nov 29, 2013 02:28
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General Battuta posted:I'm going to regret asking why, but... I hate being right 
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Nov 29, 2013 02:37
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Let's not forget the whole story bit in that other Simmons sic fi two part series (Ilium?) where the protagonist can only resurrect this woman who is the salvation for our world by ejaculating inside her while she is in a coma but it's totally not rape because, uh, hm 
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Nov 29, 2013 02:45
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Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion are both excellent, with Hyperion being the best of the two. Endymion and Rise of Endymion are completely different, sort of bonkers, and only worth it if you really want to see what happens a couple hundred years after the end of Fall.
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Nov 29, 2013 02:49
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If you have to read Dan Simmons, buy them used so he doesn't get any of the money.
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Nov 29, 2013 03:06
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ConfusedUs posted:Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion are both excellent, with Hyperion being the best of the two. I enjoyed the whole series minus a few scenes in the Endymion books. Anyway, I've been a fan of Jack McDevitt's books, but the latest, Starhawk, is beating me down. It's supposed to be his heroine's, Priscilla Hutchins, first adventure, but I'll be damned if anything has happened yet and I'm about 65% in. Massive disappointment, but I will finish it.
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Nov 29, 2013 03:27
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fookolt posted:Let's not forget the whole story bit in that other Simmons sic fi two part series (Ilium?) where the protagonist can only resurrect this woman who is the salvation for our world by ejaculating inside her while she is in a coma but it's totally not rape because, uh, hm Ugh. I remember this happening in the Merlin Cycle of the Amber books... Except the woman involved was Merlin's cousin. When told to gently caress her while she was unconscious by a reality-defining force he puts up about 30 seconds resistance before going ahead with it. loving sci-fi writers. Edit: Oh God, and now I remember Corwin loving his 16 year old niece in the original books. Yeah, it wasn't Simmons related but loving hell you read some creepy poo poo in sci-fi/fantasy. Compounded by the fact it's rarely treated in the text as being as creepy and weird as it should be. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 03:44
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House Louse posted:You're talking about the last story...right? Yes, although honestly I'd offer a weak defense of the non-ending too. So much was riding on the importance of something being unknown at that point that any attempt at explanation would have been disappointing; like a book about death where the last paragraph is a description of the afterlife. There's no way to keep that from sucking. Which I guess is just another way of saying I'm so used to terrible endings in SF that an author not even trying seems like an improvement. Irony.or.Death fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 05:39
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Irony.or.Death posted:So, Hyperion. Just finished it this morning and I feel fairly confident that it ended on the highest note it's going to reach but somehow there are three(?) more books. I remember seeing a couple people in here say that Fall was also good, which seems totally implausible but I am curious enough that I have to at least ask for more opinions. Stick it out for one more book, or abandon ship now and pretend he never wrote another word so I can say I genuinely liked the thing? Do not pass go, go directly to another book, preferably one not by Dan Simmons. He's a brilliant writer of the first half of great stories. What he ain't is a good closer.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:40
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Neurosis posted:Ugh. I stopped reading The Chronicles of Amber halfway through, basically at the PoV change because Merlin seemed so loving boring I could not go on, especially after all the melodrama of the first half, which I was getting pretty sick of as it was. I no longer regret that choice.
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Nov 29, 2013 08:13
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Stuporstar posted:I stopped reading The Chronicles of Amber halfway through, basically at the PoV change because Merlin seemed so loving boring I could not go on, especially after all the melodrama of the first half, which I was getting pretty sick of as it was. I no longer regret that choice. The Merlin books sucked. It really felt like Zelazny was trying to take the quickest, dirtiest root to set up the mythos for a planned final arc. The mythology got changed comprehensively, he clearly did not give a gently caress about some plot points, and it was just generally messy. Would the final arc have been good? Maybe. Although I feel Zelazny's best days were past him. And God I wish there was a decent publication of Creatures of Light and Darkness, I haven't read it since I found a dusty old copy in my high school!
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Nov 29, 2013 12:17
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Neurosis posted:Ugh.
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Nov 29, 2013 14:47
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Neurosis posted:The Merlin books sucked. It really felt like Zelazny was trying to take the quickest, dirtiest root to set up the mythos for a planned final arc. The mythology got changed comprehensively, he clearly did not give a gently caress about some plot points, and it was just generally messy. Would the final arc have been good? Maybe. Although I feel Zelazny's best days were past him. The entire Amber series was Zelazny basically checking out for a paycheck. You can tell from the opening of the first book -- it's just "well, I need a dramatic opening that requires no planning . . Amnesia!" and then it goes on from there with all sorts of little plot hooks that are never picked up again or forgotten completely etc. It's just not on the same order as his other stuff. I don't blame the guy for it, everyone needs to make a dollar, but it's a shame that it's what people remember and get referred to and sell on store bookshelves. Edit: anyone saying anything bad about Zelazny needs to go read Isle of the Dead and then we can have this discussion again. Talk about moral consequences of decisions. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 17:18
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Cardiovorax posted:I'll have to go and defend Zelazny there. His books are all about how essentially normal people holding reality-shattering godly superpowers get their sense of right and wrong all hosed up by it. "Creepy and weird" is exactly how you should be feeling. When did Merlin ever have anything act on his sense of right and wrong? When was he normal?
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Nov 29, 2013 17:20
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Neurosis posted:When did Merlin ever have anything act on his sense of right and wrong? When was he normal? Doesn't mean he couldn't have just dropped the ball on the Merlin novels, but Zelazny wasn't the kind of guy to write creepiness for his own personal titillation, so I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Nov 29, 2013 17:47
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Merlin was a Lord of Chaos and had all the powers of Order and Chaos and was never normal. A lot of things with no explanation or particular reason happen in his books and I have to think it was just Zelazny being lazy for setting up the final arc. And maybe it wasn't for his titillation but just casually writing in niece-loving and cousin-rape-loving shows you have some weird ideas about sex.
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Nov 29, 2013 18:11
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I was wondering if anyone has any recommendation's on books where the main heroine grows into a evil/iron queen?
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Nov 29, 2013 20:45
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tankfish posted:I was wondering if anyone has any recommendation's on books where the main heroine grows into a evil/iron queen? Deathless sort of fits.
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Nov 29, 2013 21:15
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Neurosis posted:Merlin was a Lord of Chaos and had all the powers of Order and Chaos and was never normal. A lot of things with no explanation or particular reason happen in his books and I have to think it was just Zelazny being lazy for setting up the final arc. I think in those particular books the reason Zelazny was writing that stuff in was as a deliberate parallel to greco-roman mythology.
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Nov 29, 2013 21:36
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Hate to derail the "Sci Fi authors are hosed up people" train, but just found this : http://angryrobotbooks.com/2013/11/...&utm_medium=web Basically it's a 50% off coupon for 3 diff publishers. Lots of great books. Go forth and save!
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Nov 29, 2013 21:54
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tankfish posted:I was wondering if anyone has any recommendation's on books where the main heroine grows into a evil/iron queen? Michael Swanwick's The Iron Dragon's Daughter, though she's not a queen. The Wishstone and the Wonderworkers by Hugh Cook, and its sequel, have an iron and ambivalent queen as "heroine" from the start.
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Nov 29, 2013 22:03
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I vaguely remember a book called something like Ironhand's Daughter by David Gemmell where she grew up to be an rear end kicking lady or queen or something. Can't remember if she was evil. I kinda doubt it though. Pretty sure she was tough though.
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Nov 29, 2013 22:05
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:I vaguely remember a book called something like Ironhand's Daughter by David Gemmell where she grew up to be an rear end kicking lady or queen or something. The Hawk queen right?
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Nov 29, 2013 23:21
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I think that was the sequel to it. Can't remember much besides her meeting her dad's ghost at a fountain or something. I need to re-read those books.
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Nov 30, 2013 00:26
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tankfish posted:I was wondering if anyone has any recommendation's on books where the main heroine grows into a evil/iron queen?
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Nov 30, 2013 00:53
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Who are authors particularly skilled at weaving well-realised worlds behind a book's plot? It seems there's some authors who've created full worlds that are so magnificent it's hard not to find an interesting story in them (e.g. heist novel, noir-detective), rather than the common fantasy tale of conquering an empire/ saving the world by coming-of-age. I especially love stories that are a bit brutal and have wit or humour (or at least some self-awareness). Solid characters are a plus, especially if they're morally dubious! My absolutely top author is Scott Lynch, I reckon The Lies of Locke Lamora has some of the finest dialogue and a cool heist novel that just happens to be set in a gloriously fascinating world. If anyone has any recommendations for more of the same, I'd love you! Basically, I want another Locke Lamora (I've read Red Seas and am saving Republic of Thieves for later). Other than that, any authors who've made a world quite as cool as China Mieville's Bas-Lag, which is such a drat impressive mix of intriguing, totally weird and utterly immersive. Iain Banks is probably closest in terms of dark humour and realised setting that he just plays around in! Other than that, authors that have come close with unique/ well-fleshed out settings often seem to miss something vital (usually the humour, or a non-generic fantasy storyline) are: * Mark Lawrence: overly grimdark "... of Thorns" trilogy. Loved the setting and thought the books improved dramatically * Joe Abercrombie: just too unrelenting/ grim for me * Charles Stross: I devour everything this guy writes, though reckon his characterisation could be a lot better and books would be vastly improved by dropping a lot of the references. * Richard Morgan: Kovacs' adventures started off great. I've got a copy of and have been meaning to try the Steel Remains * Patrick Rothfuss: Lovely writing, but I can't stand Kvothe or the plotting * Peter V Brett: The Warded Man was great, but gave up after the desert book and don't have any urge to read the latest given its reviews * Brandon Sanderson's worlds are meticulously crafted, but I don't find any joy or interest in the characters. Steelheart seems to be an attempt to address these issues and include much more interesting dialogue/ funny bits to appeal to a younger audience (and read like a film/ tv pitch), but all of it totally fell flat for me. The Supreme Court fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Nov 30, 2013 |
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Nov 30, 2013 04:17
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The Supreme Court posted:Who are authors particularly skilled at weaving well-realised worlds behind a book's plot? It seems there's some authors who've created full worlds that are so magnificent it's hard not to find an interesting story in them (e.g. heist novel, noir-detective), rather than the common fantasy tale of conquering an empire/ saving the world by coming-of-age. You should consider reading some women! i know i say this all the loving time Ursula LeGuin is probably the most important fantasy writer of the 20th century, and an unsurpassed prose stylist. CJ Cherryh made her name writing big, sprawling, political secondary worlds in both science fiction and fantasy. Kameron Hurley, a recent debut, did a ton of weird-as-gently caress worldbuilding in God's War, and although it didn't completely work for me I still suggest trying it out. I'm not sure Octavia Butler's work is really known for its worldbuilding but she's a Big Deal so check her out anyway. Who am I forgetting? e: You could try NK Jemisin
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Nov 30, 2013 04:41
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I should! I've liked what I've read of Ursula Le Guin's stuff, but not loved it. A bit too serious for me! Pretty drat cool worlds though. NK Jemisin's Hundred Thousand Worlds looks cool, I'll give that a shot, and try out the other authors you mention too. Thanks!
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Nov 30, 2013 05:37
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The Supreme Court posted:Other than that, any authors who've made a world quite as cool as China Mieville's Bas-Lag, which is such a drat impressive mix of intriguing, totally weird and utterly immersive. Bas-Lag is probably my favorite fantasy world ever created. Based on your appreciation of that and your other criteria, I would recommend: * Jeff Vandermeer: City of Saints and Madmen: The Book of Ambergris is a stunning example of worldbuilding that defies typical narrative conventions. It's a collection of short stories that includes everything from in-universe historical essays to a police interrogation of a man who claims to have written the world to the musings of wandering priests. If you like the world he sets up there, he expounds upon it in the (slightly) more traditional novels Shriek and Finch, which push the timeline forward from something approximating the Edwardian era to a slick 1940s style noir setting. It's got some brutal stuff but never portrayed in a grimdark way so much as a really, really surreal one. * Felix Gilman: The Half-Made World and The Rise of Ransom City are both excellent. I prefer the former over the latter for a few reasons but they're well worth picking up if you like weird fantasy. Tackles everything from the exploitation of natives by colonial powers to tearing down the idea of the self-made-man in a wonderfully bizarre wild west setting where open warfare has erupted between a council of sentient, divine train engines and an otherworldly lodge owned by demonically possessed firearms. Also forgotten superweapons, strange spirits and a planet that is literally still being forged out of a massive lightning and magma storm just beyond the horizon. I guess I should warn that this seems to be one of those love it or hate it authors, though -- most of the people I've recommended it to adore it but the few that dislike it really dislike it. * Barry Hughart: The Chronicles of Master Li and Number Ten Ox doesn't really create a fantasy world so much as write a love letter to Chinese and pre-Chinese mythology and drop you smack dab in the middle of it. And then asks you to tag along with a geriatric, drunken, lecherous Sherlock Holmes analogue as he solves mysteries that seem benign on the surface but then lead through the heavens, hells and every spirit realm in between. Completely faithful and respectful to that mythology, too, although written with razor-edged humor. * Lois McMaster Bujold: The Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls. It looks like every other stereotypical western european knights and wizards setting ever but once you dig into it there's some really inventive magic systems, a fully realized political struggle going on between half a dozen distinct and realistic world powers, and some very unique heroes. You've got a knight-turned-galley-slave-turned-knight who was crippled physically and emotionally by his ordeal, and a middle aged woman who has spent most of her adult life struggling with curse-induced mental illness and is now trying to find some normalcy. They both spend as much time fighting against societal conventions and prejudices as they do supernatural threats, and not in a patronizing "look at the magical cripple" way like a lot of authors fall back on. I'll also second Jemisin, I liked The Killing Moon a lot more than I did the Inheritance Trilogy but I'm a giant sucker for ancient Egypt.
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Nov 30, 2013 12:16
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The Supreme Court posted:Other than that, any authors who've made a world quite as cool as China Mieville's Bas-Lag, which is such a drat impressive mix of intriguing, totally weird and utterly immersive. Felix Gilman's The Half-Made World and Max Gladstone's Three Parts Dead is what you need. Also, Jack Vance, duh. Try out The Moon Moth then, perhaps, the Demon Princes? The first DP book is a bit Early Vance, more straightforward pulp than the ones that follow but they're all excellent.
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Nov 30, 2013 12:37
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General Battuta posted:Who am I forgetting? Mary Gentle, for one. Her novel Ash (a series in the US) is about a mediaeval mercenary - Gentle has an MA in history, so you're in pretty good hands for accurate detail - mid fifteenth century, and working for the Burgundians IIRC. Except the invaders are invincible Visigoths from North Africa, and not all of the details are correct, and the text is actually a translation being done by a modern historian, making footnotes and doing his own research in between chapters, and the ending is great. Her other books are set in interesting societies, such as the first White Crow book, set in a city where giant bipedal rats rule humans for the city's gods. I haven't read P. C. Hodgell, just about her, but they sound as if The Supreme Court might have a positive opinon of her. Do you? The Supreme Court posted:Who are authors particularly skilled at weaving well-realised worlds behind a book's plot? It seems there's some authors who've created full worlds that are so magnificent it's hard not to find an interesting story in them (e.g. heist novel, noir-detective), rather than the common fantasy tale of conquering an empire/ saving the world by coming-of-age. Daniel Abraham's "Seasons" books (A Betrayal in Autumn, etc) are set in a quasi-Asian world without being all Orientalist, all the wizards are poets who create beings that can do one sort of magic and want nothing more to un-exist, and the people use sign language to bolster their speech, although this is a bit clumsy. The first one's a love triangle, the second's a political coup and a rewrite of Macbeth. I haven't got round to the others yet. Hugh Cook, for brutality, humour, and idiosyncracy - start with The Walrus and the Warwolf - and The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick, for the interest of the warped reflections of modern America. It has a sequel called The Dragons of Babel which didn't work for me so well. I don't rate Earthsea quite as highly as General Battuta, but the first trilogy is probably the best fantasy trilogy ever. (E: And her worldbuilding is elegant and unusual, which is what you were after.) Safety Biscuits fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 30, 2013 |
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Nov 30, 2013 13:13
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Mandragora posted:* Felix Gilman: The Half-Made World and The Rise of Ransom City are both excellent. I prefer the former over the latter for a few reasons but they're well worth picking up if you like weird fantasy. Tackles everything from the exploitation of natives by colonial powers to tearing down the idea of the self-made-man in a wonderfully bizarre wild west setting where open warfare has erupted between a council of sentient, divine train engines and an otherworldly lodge owned by demonically possessed firearms. Also forgotten superweapons, strange spirits and a planet that is literally still being forged out of a massive lightning and magma storm just beyond the horizon. I guess I should warn that this seems to be one of those love it or hate it authors, though -- most of the people I've recommended it to adore it but the few that dislike it really dislike it. I just finished The Rise of Ransom City and I vastly preferred The Half-Made World. Mostly because Harry Ransom is such a shyster blowhard who, through luck or guile, continues to fail upwards at every opportunity. I wanted him to take a bullet to the face about halfway through the first act. The Half-Made World is far better. I love the conflicts, which are as much about ideology and "progress" of whatever sort than anything. The forces of the Line and the agents of the Gun offer great contrasting viewpoints. Even so, The Half-Made World is more about the world than the characters, so keep that in mind. Luckily the world itself is pretty neat! Mandragora posted:* Barry Hughart: The Chronicles of Master Li and Number Ten Ox doesn't really create a fantasy world so much as write a love letter to Chinese and pre-Chinese mythology and drop you smack dab in the middle of it. And then asks you to tag along with a geriatric, drunken, lecherous Sherlock Holmes analogue as he solves mysteries that seem benign on the surface but then lead through the heavens, hells and every spirit realm in between. Completely faithful and respectful to that mythology, too, although written with razor-edged humor. This is an omnibus of many books/stories chronicling the adventures of a crazy drunken man and his good-hearted sidekick. The first book is excellent and worth the price of admission alone. There are some genuine laugh-out-loud moments, mostly thanks to Master Li. Shine on you crazy old man.
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Nov 30, 2013 18:31
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Seconding Hughart. I've only read Bridge of Birds but it was a pretty neat take on Chinese myths. It really sucks that he stopped writing due to being screwed over by his publisher 
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Nov 30, 2013 18:56
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tankfish posted:I was wondering if anyone has any recommendation's on books where the main heroine grows into a evil/iron queen? Glen Cook's Darkwar has this going on. Marika just wants to be a normal person, but her abilities set her apart. Then she saves the world by destroying traditional society and everyone hates her. It's science fiction by the way, Marika's people aren't human.
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Nov 30, 2013 21:29
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The Supreme Court posted:Who are authors particularly skilled at weaving well-realised worlds behind a book's plot? It seems there's some authors who've created full worlds that are so magnificent it's hard not to find an interesting story in them (e.g. heist novel, noir-detective), rather than the common fantasy tale of conquering an empire/ saving the world by coming-of-age. The Malazan books have an incredibly realized world with tens of thousands of years of history. They can be pretty grim and dark though. I haven't read Ambercrombie so I can't say if they are as grim. I find a lot a humor in them, though, as well as the sadness. It's essentially the history of an empire that has fallen, so it's not very cheerful, but I love these books, so gotta throw 'me in, just in case. They are very long with a lot of characters, and they'd are ten of them, so that can be intimidating to start out with. Second the recommends for Jeff Vandermeer and Jemisin. Catherynne Valente's Orphan's Tale books are also unique and beautifully written, setting up a sort of Arabian Nights inspired world that is incredibly gorgeous. It's a must for anyone who is a fan of mythology and folklore, but the tales in the book also reveal the world that sort of builds up in your imagination as they are told, and eventually reveal an overarching plot, so it will satisfy your itch for world building that's different from the standard fantasy plot.
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Nov 30, 2013 22:22
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Lowly posted:The Malazan books have an incredibly realized world with tens of thousands of years of history.
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Nov 30, 2013 22:26
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Cardiovorax posted:They're also like reading Every Anime Ever: The Novel. Perfectly fine if that's what you like, but fair warning. And a lot of people, me included, find the first novel nearly unreadable. (I didn't think much of the second one either and that's supposedly where it "gets good". But whatever.) Check it out by all means, but I wouldn't splurge on the complete collection before reading the first book.
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Nov 30, 2013 22:29
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Lowly posted:Second the recommends for Jeff Vandermeer and Jemisin. Catherynne Valente's Orphan's Tale books are also unique and beautifully written, setting up a sort of Arabian Nights inspired world that is incredibly gorgeous. It's a must for anyone who is a fan of mythology and folklore, but the tales in the book also reveal the world that sort of builds up in your imagination as they are told, and eventually reveal an overarching plot, so it will satisfy your itch for world building that's different from the standard fantasy plot. Ah, I've got to second this recommendation really hard. The Orphan's Tales read like worldbuilding from a parallel world that was never swamped by Tolkien knockoffs. They're dense and organic and sometimes it'll feel like there's no way all this poo poo can fit together, but, no, she absolutely nails the landing. she wrote the whole thing without an outline
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Nov 30, 2013 22:37
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For well constructed worlds, I thought Kameron Hurley's Bel Dame Trilogy did a great job. I felt like I lived there (but was glad I didn't what with males not used for much other than sex).
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The Supreme Court posted:Request for awesome worlds I'd second/third/etc the Jeff Vandermeer and Felix Gilman recommendations. Most authors associated with the vaguely-defined New Weird movement seem to have interesting, irregular worlds and cityscapes as a common element, so people like Steph Swainston or Michael Cisco may also be up your alley. BigSkillet fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Dec 1, 2013 |
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Dec 1, 2013 00:51
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