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How does this sound: -Draft Clowney first overall -Trade this year's second- and third-round picks to Washington, sorely needing picks, for Kirk Cousins and their third round pick this year. -Let's do the time warp agaaaaaaain.  EDIT: Cousins was Martin's QB at Michigan State, so that might improve his play as well. Goodness knows he needs it. bhsman fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 19:12
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The Seahawks drafted a lineman in the first with a super high ceiling who had consistency and injury worries and he has worked out really well for us when he's actually in games so v v I think Clowney will probably work out???
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Dec 3, 2013 19:15
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I guess in a QB draft this deep it might make more sense to take Clowney
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Dec 3, 2013 19:18
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If a team actually gets swindled out of significant draft capital for Kirk Cousins they deserve everything that follows.Intruder posted:I guess in a QB draft this deep it might make more sense to take Clowney And again, this is only even really a debate if you consider Bridgewater head and shoulders above the other guys, and by May that might not even be the case.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:20
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Intruder posted:I guess in a QB draft this deep it might make more sense to take Clowney If Bridgewater blows up at the combine after similarly blowing up Miami, then I'm down. But otherwise this is my 2014 feverdream: 
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Dec 3, 2013 19:24
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How concussed was Boyd there?
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Dec 3, 2013 19:27
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Regnevelc posted:How concussed was Boyd there? He gazed up at the enormous face. Four years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark dreadlocks. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Jadaveon.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:29
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Holy poo poo, Jadeveon Clowney isn't riding off "high school rep" and "one good game." He's "riding" off being a 6'6'', 280 pound monster who can run a sub 4.5 40 and is fast and strong to boot.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:29
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Clowney doesn't really have consistency problems unless the entire offense playing away from him is a consistency issue.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:29
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Intruder posted:I guess in a QB draft this deep it might make more sense to take Clowney Clowney/Manziel it is then. 
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Dec 3, 2013 19:30
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Bob Shabazz posted:Clowney doesn't really have consistency problems unless the entire offense playing away from him is a consistency issue. No, no, you guys, I haven't watched a single minute of his footage but I've read some interesting draft stuff and
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Dec 3, 2013 19:31
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Arschlochkind posted:Clowney/Manziel it is then.  Now I know why bhsman wants Clowney so badly 
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Dec 3, 2013 19:32
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Why would I take the top DE over the top QB? For example, the Texans have what is arguable the best DE in the league putting up some all best seasons and they've got 2 wins vs the Colts pre/post Luck, the Seahawks pre/post Wilson etc. Get the drat QB if you want to win. It's the single most important variable in the game today.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:32
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Intruder posted:
Sumlin being extended makes me think there's a good chance Manziel stays another year. But if not aw yeah Jay-Eff-Eff That .gif really makes me want Boyd and Clowney on the same team a la Hopkins-Swearinger  Relentlessboredomm posted:Why would I take the top DE over the top QB? We dropped 31 points on the Patriots at home with a 10 point lead going into the half and had three touchdowns in the first half against the Colts, also at home. Hell, look at the Seahawks game with Schaub. We proceeded to get outscored in the second half almost every time. Go watch Brady's TD throw to Gronk and see how much time he has. 
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Dec 3, 2013 19:33
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Why would I take the top DE over the top QB? Because the top DE is likely a generational talent, and the top QB isn't
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Dec 3, 2013 19:34
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Intruder posted:Well I'm about halfway through the Tennessee video and all I've seen so far is Clowney getting blocked out of plays by a single blocker or him beating his man away from the side the play is being run to. Also a pretty terrible facemask I'll be honest, that's what I see out of Clowney most of the time too. He either a) totally clowns someone with his speed and kills the quarterback (so they double him to make sure that doesn't happen) or b) he gets blocked by someone fast enough to keep up with him and he gets shut down by the single blocker (I don't remember which game it was but he was totally and utterly dominated all game by some fast TE that could stay in front of him)
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Dec 3, 2013 19:43
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Why would I take the top DE over the top QB? Because your coaches might not think the QB is likely to turn out well? Using Wilson as your example when he was drafted midway through the third round should be like, the biggest possible example why this reasoning is stupid and flawed. Tom Brady was a 6th round pick and Tony Romo went undrafted while Akili Smith and Joey Harrington were top 5 picks.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:43
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Emanuel Collective posted:Because the top DE is likely a generational talent, and the top QB isn't "I'm perfectly content to have Christian Ponder as my QB because at least we can waste the talent of a generational running back"
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Dec 3, 2013 19:48
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bhsman posted:Sumlin being extended makes me think there's a good chance Manziel stays another year. But if not aw yeah Jay-Eff-Eff I also saw your team put together absolutely nothing on their final drive that would have iced the game or at least given Brady significantly less time to win. Emanuel Collective posted:Because the top DE is likely a generational talent, and the top QB isn't More likely to get you to the playoffs pick one: Calvin Johnson, JJ Watt, Cam Newton Grozz Nuy posted:Because your coaches might not think the QB is likely to turn out well? Obviously this is predicated on him being the highest QB on that coaches board. No it perfectly illustrates the need for a good QB, and if we're going to talk about hit rates your chances of finding a good QB are about double in the first round then the second and not even comparable to the third. Follow the logic here: Good QB makes your team better than generational talent at any other position (examples of good QBs here) therefore it is imperative to get a good QB. Best chance of getting a good QB is taking best QB in any given year. Still not a great chance, but best possible. I genuinely agree with Kawalimus in that I'd take a QB every single year until one hits, or at worst every other year in the first.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:48
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Relentlessboredomm posted:More likely to get you to the playoffs pick one: It's kind of funny that in this example the QB you picked is the one player listed who hasn't been to the playoffs even if I'm still leaning toward agreeing with you about needing to take the QB
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Dec 3, 2013 19:50
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Emanuel Collective posted:Because the top DE is likely a generational talent, and the top QB isn't Exactly. You'd take Clowney if you were going Best Player Available. QB is a need pick. Though in many ways, I think offensive line is a more pressing need for Houston at the moment. Though I gotta say, as much as I like the idea of the Texans taking Clowney, if you don't get a QB there, the options in free agency are really, really bad, particularly since Cutler is likely to not be on the market. Your options are whatever 2nd round rookie you scoop up, or looking at a player cut by some other team. In that case, if you don't want to start Keenum or Schaub, your best options are one of: - Michael Vick - Kyle Orton - Mark Sanchez - Ryan Fitzpatrick Honestly none of those options look better than Keenum for another year ahead of whoever the rookie QB is. Intruder posted:It's kind of funny that in this example the QB you picked is the one player listed who hasn't been to the playoffs even if I'm still leaning toward agreeing with you about needing to take the QB Was about to say this, given the history.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:52
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TheChirurgeon posted:Exactly. You'd take Clowney if you were going Best Player Available. QB is a need pick. Though in many ways, I think offensive line is a more pressing need for Houston at the moment. I don't quite agree on this. Newton is a trainwreck, but I think you're pretty solid at the rest of the positions going forward. Ben Jones will do nicely in replacing busted rear end Wade Smith and Brandon Brooks is filling in nicely at RG as well. They're not on the level of the 2011 line but RT is the only real glaring need on the line at the moment, and hopefully Quessenberry's return from injury will address that. If not, you can probably get a decent RT. I think Kubiak just falls in love with his guys and gets stubborn and that's why Newton is still around I just can't imagine taking a RT #1 overall (although I guess the Chiefs did it)
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Dec 3, 2013 19:55
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Intruder posted:It's kind of funny that in this example the QB you picked is the one player listed who hasn't been to the playoffs even if I'm still leaning toward agreeing with you about needing to take the QB They've basically made the playoffs this year as is, so that's a moot point plus I wanted to pick a good but not great top five QB compared to the best at other positions. Use Matt Ryan if you'd prefer. A good QB is more likely to make you competitive year in and year out than any other position look at Purple Jesus vs Matt Ryan. Peterson is clearly a generational RB and it's done very little to make the Vikings playoff contenders because he's constantly torpedoed by lovely QB play. Matt Ryan has not been a generational QB but he's been good and in spite of a mediocre to poo poo defense most years or a rapidly disintegrating o-line the past two years, he's pulled them into the playoffs. It took essentially every good player on the team outside of him getting injured to completely gently caress the team and we all know this is a one year occurrence.
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Dec 3, 2013 19:56
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Intruder posted:It's kind of funny that in this example the QB you picked is the one player listed who hasn't been to the playoffs even if I'm still leaning toward agreeing with you about needing to take the QB More than that, Newton playing his heart out didn't do anything about the terrible defense. Grabbing talented defensive line talent helped a whole lot in that regard.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:01
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bhsman posted:More than that, Newton playing his heart out didn't do anything about the terrible defense. Grabbing talented defensive line talent helped a whole lot in that regard. Nope, Newton was inconsistent but mostly he got hosed by poor coaching. I never claimed a QB could overcome truly horrendous coaching. They had the same problems at the beginning of this year and then suddenly Rivera learned his lesson and now they're winning.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:02
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Tony Romo is better than Matt Ryan by a lot and the Cowboys have frequently missed the playoffs throughout his long tenure as a starter. This is the part where I also point out that he wasn't even drafted. The idea that GMs can just magic a guaranteed starter-quality QB out of the first round of the draft if they just want it bad enough is ludicrous. And using Adrian Peterson as your example of a team that doesn't value the QB position enough through the draft is hilarious because Christian Ponder was taken 12th overall the same year Newton came out, when just about everyone realized that was a huge reach.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:02
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Nope, Newton was inconsistent but mostly he got hosed by poor coaching. I never claimed a QB could overcome truly horrendous coaching. They had the same problems at the beginning of this year and then suddenly Rivera learned his lesson and now they're winning. Newton has as much to do with the team's success this year as the defense. Without that, they aren't beating San Fran or New England, and potentially New Orleans.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:04
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Grozz Nuy posted:Tony Romo is better than Matt Ryan by a lot and the Cowboys have frequently missed the playoffs throughout his long tenure as a starter. Tony Romo is the only reason the Cowboys haven't been a bottom five team for the past six years. The fact that they've been consistently at or above .500 is a loving miracle. It's not magic it's playing the odds. I already explained this. If you decide that a good QB is your best chance for winning what is your best chance for getting a QB? Notice I said BEST chance, BEST not guaranteed, not magic, BEST chance, as in BETTER than a second round pick or a third or a sixth or a loving UDFA. BEST CHANCE. That is why you draft the best QB in the draft if given the opportunity. bhsman posted:Newton has as much to do with the team's success this year as the defense. Without that, they aren't beating San Fran or New England, and potentially New Orleans. His quality of play while good, would still have been wasted at times without the massive improvement in coaching. It's the single biggest change from last season/early this year to now. Obviously Newton is a huge reason they're winning, that's the entire argument I'm making. I'm merely pointing out the reason it's taken so long is that the coach finally got out of his way.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:06
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Grozz Nuy posted:Because your coaches might not think the QB is likely to turn out well? Russell Wilson, Tom Brady and Tony Romo are more exceptions and not the rule to QBs. Most, if not all of the QBs starting on good teams were drafted in the 1st or 2nd rounds. Edit: that isn't to say a 1st round pick won't be a bust, of course.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:10
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Tony Romo is the only reason the Cowboys haven't been a bottom five team for the past six years. The fact that they've been consistently at or above .500 is a loving miracle. You're not the only one playing the odds, though; I genuinely think that adding Clowney and improving the defense WHILE grabbing a second-round QB like Boyd. Are we really, truly hamstringing ourselves by giving the defense another playmaker while drafting the guy who overcame LSU's 2012 defense with the help of our first round wideout that we drafted last year? quote:His quality of play while good, would still have been wasted at times without the massive improvement in coaching. It's the single biggest change from last season/early this year to now. Obviously Newton is a huge reason they're winning, that's the entire argument I'm making. I'm merely pointing out the reason it's taken so long is that the coach finally got out of his way. Rivera going all 'Riverboat Ron' has helped, but there were a ton of games over the last two years where the Panthers couldn't win a shootout because the defense was so bad. Compare the quality of their defensive tackles from those years to now and there's a huge difference.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:14
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Tony Romo is the only reason the Cowboys haven't been a bottom five team for the past six years. The fact that they've been consistently at or above .500 is a loving miracle. The best QB in this draft isn't Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck, he's a smart, reasonably toolsy 21 year old who's had occasional struggles against pretty soft college competition. There's absolutely great upside there (what you call 'the best chance'), but let's say we compare him to say, Sam Bradford, another solid but not excellent #1 QB prospect. Is the disparity between Bradford and Case Keenum really worth passing up the opportunity to add a guy like Clowney to your team, especially when Keenum is dirt cheap and doesn't really prevent you from making different plans for the position in the future like spending #1 overall would? These decisions are not made in a vacuum and it's really silly to pretend like they are. seiferguy posted:Russell Wilson, Tom Brady and Tony Romo are more exceptions and not the rule to QBs. Most, if not all of the QBs starting on good teams were drafted in the 1st or 2nd rounds. Most of the QBs that fans would consider really good weren't #1 overall or even top 5 picks, though. Getting the 'best QB in the class' because that's what you have to do if you want to win is a fallacy.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:15
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Grozz Nuy posted:Most of the QBs that fans would consider really good weren't #1 overall or even top 5 picks, though. Getting the 'best QB in the class' because that's what you have to do if you want to win is a fallacy. Agreed. And yes I do believe if the Texans get 1st overall they should get Clowney. I was more highlighting that dudes like Russell Wilson or Tom Brady don't come along that often and there usually isn't hidden QB talent deep in the draft.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:19
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seiferguy posted:Agreed. And yes I do believe if the Texans get 1st overall they should get Clowney. I was more highlighting that dudes like Russell Wilson or Tom Brady don't come along that often and there usually isn't hidden QB talent deep in the draft. I think it's more likely that there's generally some talent hidden back there every year, but it never gets developed.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:31
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bhsman posted:How does this sound: That'd be a great trade but the secondary trade likely flawed. I could see texans second rounder and their 4th for cousins. Washington would get their main value (the 33rd overall) and a really hard to say no extra pick in the 4th which is exactly what gms crave
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Dec 3, 2013 20:37
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"Pick which generational talent gets you to the playoffs" is the dumbest poo poo I've ever read. I'm sorry.
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Dec 3, 2013 20:42
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Quest For Glory II posted:"Pick which generational talent gets you to the playoffs" is the dumbest poo poo I've ever read. I'm sorry. What if we compared them to umbrellas and/or briefcases, would that help?
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Dec 3, 2013 20:43
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I'd take Clowney over Bridgewater, but I don't think Bridgewater is all that good soooooo
Nissin Cup Nudist fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 20:51
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DOOP posted:I'd take Clowney over Bridgewater, but I don't think Bridgewater is all that good soooooo This. I'd probably take any of the other handful of "top tier" QBs at the same time as Bridgewater, if not before.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:19
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Also fyi this draft is nowhere near as deep at QB if Mariota and Hundley go back. You're looking at a scenario where Manziel and McCarron become desperation first round picks when they might be 2nd day picks in most drafts. Instead of a top 3 of Bridgewater, Mariota and Hundley, you get a top 3 of maybe Bridgewater, Carr, and Manziel. And of Logan Thomas, or Tahj Boyd, or Aaron Murray... no sir I don't like em. Don't like Mettenberger either. e: The Carr grade is just based on what some scouts have said. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 21:20
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I think Carr and Fales are neck and neck as far as mid round MWC prospects go
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Dec 3, 2013 21:28
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