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Darko posted:Yeah, basically this. Rick, Carl, Michonne, and Daryl are safe. A few other characters as well. I mean, I'm all for it. Kill Darryl first.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:21
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Mexcillent posted:I mean, I'm all for it. Kill Darryl first. I agree. AMC probably wouldn't let that happen though, due to being too scared of monetary loss from the move.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:31
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I'd rather characters not die if it hurts the story. Shane dying was essential, Dale not so much. That still stands out as my single stupidest "well, someone had to die" moments and could have been handled almost any other way. Milton dying in 3 also really felt like wasted potential to me. I was sad to lose Merle since he created a good dynamic, but he went out in a way that actually told a good story.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:35
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Surlaw posted:I'd rather characters not die if it hurts the story. Shane dying was essential, Dale not so much. That still stands out as my single stupidest "well, someone had to die" moments and could have been handled almost any other way. Milton dying in 3 also really felt like wasted potential to me. I was sad to lose Merle since he created a good dynamic, but he went out in a way that actually told a good story. Milton dying was absolutely awful. I agree on this. So much poo poo just went wrong in Season 3. Still, Darryl should have died in the prison siege.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:39
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I don't have any real problem with the Walking Dead's death ratio. Shane, Dale, Lori, Andrea, Hershell. They've shown plenty of willingness to kill off major characters and I think they've established that death is a real risk. Yes, Rick, Darryl, and some others feel safe but that didn't keep some people (including myself) from holding their breath for Darryl this past episode. I also feared for Michonne, Glenn, Maggie, and Carl at different points of the chaos and was actually relieved they all made it out alive. Over time I think Glenn and Maggie are vulnerable since either's death would bring drama to the other and be powerful to the viewer but wouldn't really disrupt the plots. Tyreese, Sasha, Beth, Bob, Carol, and whoever else is vulnerable. Rick, Carl, Darryl, and Michonne feel semi safe but I honestly don't doubt that any of them could die in a finale under major circumstances. It would take something major but I think the show has set up the stakes and established death as a real thing. And as much as Kirkman may be all kill crazy I think there's enough pullback from the network and the reality of actors vs just comic characters that they won't go crazy. I'm comfortable with the place The Walking Dead is at re: blood lust. You don't have to be Game of Thrones to give the script danger. Spiteski posted:Even if Rick had managed to remain calm during that, the same could not be said for every other prison camper. Especially not Beth and Maggie. Yeah, I thought Beth and Maggie were the first ones to shoot. Regardless we're talking seconds and I find it hard to imagine that many people with guns staying calm after the Governor CUT OFF A DUDE'S HEAD WITH A SWORD. I think that's another thing I just disagree with. People keep saying that someone should have been screaming a list of the Governor's crimes and trying to turn his people but I think that's just not fair. For all Rick's crew know these people are keenly aware of what the Gov has done, but more likely they're just duped and have gone all in just like Woodbury. You don't get to the point where you're holding a gun on people without getting to the brink and your victim saying outlandish things like "He raped, murdered, and kept an aquarium of zombie heads" probably won't accomplish much besides making yourself seem crazy and provoking the crazy dude into doing something crazy like CUTTING OFF A DUDE'S HEAD WITH A SWORD. Super Ninja Fish posted:That's good leverage in a hostage situation if you don't care about the lives of the hostages. Just as much as it seems absurd to me to present his making the decision as some kind of "gently caress them, I'm the leader" thing. What about the part where he repeatedly told the Governor there was a Council and the Governor said he had to make the decision? What about all the times this season Rick refused power and apologized for his brief dictatorship? It seems crazy to me that in the same situation you accuse Rick of motivations that go against almost all his characterization while you seem to treat the Governor as a rational actor despite all his characterization. Its like you have the two of them reversed. quote:Rick made the offer, and the governor rejected it. Then he comes up with the dumbest most stubborn self-centered decision he's made thus far in the series, not even taking into consideration what Hershel's family might think or that he's putting everyone else in immediate danger. At least if he had went back and talked about it, he could have had everyone get ready. He could have had the kids on the bus. He could have made sure Judith was safe. Even if the governor would have sent people after them and Rick was right in refusing to leave, it's still moronic of him to not let everyone know he's going to refuse before he does it. quote:Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. Although even he would send people after them, they would have Michonne and Hershel back. (I doubt he would just kill them in front of everybody and chance that his new family and new community would leave him) They would be in vehicles. They would have to be found. The people he sends would have to be okay with shooting at children in cars and busses for no good reason. Even Martinez and Merle would most likely have had a problem with that. And even if these people would be the ones to finally stand up to the Governor it seems insane to believe that the Governor would behave rationally or object to killing Hershell and Michonne in front of his people. The same man who has time and again done horrid things and justified to his people, talked his way out of it, or has simply done batshit insane things like mowing down his own militia? Rick (and I would think most of the prison crew who have been here with the Governor before) probably assumed that the Governor would act irrationally and do something severe, like cutting Herschell's head off with a sword, and that his militia would either be morally bankrupt enough or so terrified and all in that they continued on after such an act. And turns out he was right. To Rick (and I contend Darryl, Maggie, Beth, Carl, etc) it made sense to take a stand the same way it made sense to take a stand the last time the Governor came or to take the offensive in the first conflict when Maggie and Glenn were captured. And giving up the cover the prison gave them (realistically the only thing keeping them alive at that stage) or turning their backs on the Governor and expecting him to do anything but take advantage would seem like a fatal mistake born out of not learning anything from their past encounters. Tragic as it is, Maggie and Beth are as hardened and experienced as the rest of these people after everything they've been through. As grief stricken as they were they were able to pull it together, fight, and try and save people in the moments after watching their father murdered. Maggie and Beth are as much soldiers as Darryl, Carl, Herschell, Michonne, and Rick are and I honestly have a hard time imagining any of them thinking surrender was a good idea. In fact the only objection we heard from anyone about the way Rick was handling things was Carl who wanted to shoot the Governor and immediately escalate the situation Rick was desperately trying to defuse. quote:It was after Rick made his choice and said we're not leaving. Either we all live here, or no one lives here. Governor made his decision based off of that ultimatum. And we all knew what that decision was going to be before he made it. Yes, we all knew the response to this would be the Governor doing something irrational and psychotic like killing Hershell. But we also knew the full story of killing Martinez and Mitch's brother, and every other crazy detail of the Governor's last few months. I said it before, Rick made the same mistake many people in this thread did (and it seems like you are) in believing the Governor could be reasoned with or had any humanity left. I don't blame Rick because I think it was his only desperate option but it was a desperate option.
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Dec 3, 2013 21:52
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Daryl and Rick are safe until the last season, the last two episodes even. Rick as hes the main star, and Daryl as he has the massive fan base drooling over him. There is no way they are that stupid to off either before the end its viewing figure madness. Unless the actors themselves want to leave or something real life happens.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:01
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Mexcillent posted:I mean, I'm all for it. Kill Darryl first. I still think the Govenor should have cut off Michonne's head, not Herschel's. It would have been unexpected. It'd shocked the hell out of comics people, and surprised everyone here. It'd also been in character for the Gov to slowly hack her head off in front of everyone. Again, I think we have enough "badass fighters." Daryl's existence in the show renders Michonne kind of redundant. We don't have anyone else right now that can fill Herschel's character niche. Maybe it's due to what they have planned in the later half of the season, and maybe they want to do more with Michonne. But if the scene played out EXACTLY as it did and the Gov says "Lies!" and then turned and swung HER head off, I really think they'd upped the "Holy poo poo!" and "Nobody is safe" quota like no tomorrow. Then again I hate how Daryl doesn't seem to have any rage towards the Gov whatsoever given what happened to Merle, and he never even mentions it again. It was a huge loving deal. Frankly I think Daryl, Carl, even Maggie could have filled in Michonne's role of saving Rick and each of them had more reasons for it to be personal. I mean poo poo, Michonne and the Gov was built up as some vendetta but if you stop to think about - it's pretty one sided. He's never done anything PERSONALLY to Michonne. I don't even know why she hates him so much more than the others. I mean look at what he did: - Glenn: Tortured and tried to kill him, sexually assaulted his wife - Maggie: On top of that assault he now hacked her father's head off with a sword in front of her. - Beth: Same as above, except the assault happened to her sister. - Daryl: Killed his brother and left him to turn into a zombie. - Carl: Beating the every loving poo poo out of his father, destroyed his home - Woodsbury Survivors: Didn't the Gov kill all the parents of those kids they have at the prison? - Michonne: Said some nasty things and killed a "friend" she didn't say hardly one word to, because she was a dumb motherfucker. And on that note, he hates Michonne because of.. well, he's over the daughter thing, I really believed that part. His eye? A grudge? I'm not really sure. Again I don't hate Michonne but this whole thing she had going with the Gov right down to the "I'm going to kill you" cliche paying off was far weaker than the alternatives I think. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 22:04
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Herschel dying has long term consequences for his family that Michonne dying wouldn't match, but I agree that as far as roles go I'd rather lose one of two Strong Fighters than our last remaining Wise Dude.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:08
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Miss that beautiful moment of Herschel smiling at Rick just for shock value? No thanks.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:08
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Dezztroy posted:You'd think the tank driver would've known to close the breech when that grenade went in. Though I guess they might've already loaded a round. It's better than Herschel's infinite ammo cheat from season 2. In fact given that blowing up tanks by rolling grenades down the barrel is something people are actually doing in Syria I'm willing to give that one a complete pass.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:11
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I think thematically Hershell's story was told and there was something fairly fitting about him dying after all the stuff this season and where he feels like he's really made a difference and imparted his wisdom on his kids, real and "adopted" like Rick, Carl, and Glenn. Michonne theoretically has more story to tell and her death would have been more of a shock move and resolution for the Governor's story. It would have been a straight up victory for the Governor and that's a story move I really wouldn't have enjoyed. I'm not married to Michonne or anything, I just would have been very angry at seeing the Governor get that win. Really it seems like you're pushing "shock and character danger" over "story and plot catharsis." I'd much prefer a show give a few people plot armor in the name of story. Plus you're valuing a one time shock of seeing Michonne die over the long term impact of Hershell's death on both the characters and the viewers. If Michonne had died instead of Hershell Talking Dead wouldn't have been a somber wake. She doesn't have that emotional presence on the show. happyhippy posted:Daryl and Rick are safe until the last season, the last two episodes even. But that's really not a bad thing. Like I said, Game of Thrones is an extreme and you don't have to go there.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:13
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Surlaw posted:Herschel dying has long term consequences for his family that Michonne dying wouldn't match, but I agree that as far as roles go I'd rather lose one of two Strong Fighters than our last remaining Wise Dude. I actually suspect that wasn't their motivation. I think they were (and perhaps this is why they were making a good call after all) looking to do something to make the audience HATE the Governor, after kind of making us sympathize with him a few episodes back. Frankly I don't think most people are remotely attached to Michonne as much as Herschel, so it did succeed at that, in particular the brutal way in which he died. STAC Goat posted:But that's really not a bad thing. Like I said, Game of Thrones is an extreme and you don't have to go there. But if any story is going to approach that level of negative plot armor, one set in the zombie apocalypse is likely it. There's a balance and I do totally agree making deaths work for the story is a priority, but I also think it's unfair to say GoT just randomly kills people. Everyone major that died has had major story consequences. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 22:15
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STAC Goat posted:But that's really not a bad thing. Like I said, Game of Thrones is an extreme and you don't have to go there. Game of Thrones really isn't all that, anyway. Character deaths there serve the story just the same as in any other well written piece of fiction, it's just that it's telling the kind of story where important people die.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:17
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verybad posted:Game of Thrones really isn't all that, anyway. Character deaths there serve the story just the same as in any other well written piece of fiction, it's just that it's telling the kind of story where important people die. Yep. I can't think of a single wasted death on that show and there have been a LOT of deaths, honestly. I'd even go as far as to say many characters do in fact have "Plot armor" there, it's just that the writer is willing to take it away to service the story, so kind of the reverse situation. Alchenar posted:It's better than Herschel's infinite ammo cheat from season 2. In fact given that blowing up tanks by rolling grenades down the barrel is something people are actually doing in Syria I'm willing to give that one a complete pass. I've heard the tank he was using doesn't work that way, but I'll accept it. Also it seemed as if he was operating the tank all by himself when he's supposed to have a crew, so it might account for a lot of that incompetency. In fact that part is kind of funny because I have no idea who he was screaming "GRENADE!" to. They should have showed someone else trying to crawl out and not making it. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 22:19
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the more realistic way to destroy the tank would be to have the katana pierce the tank armor and kill the driver.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:45
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Blazing Ownager posted:In fact that part is kind of funny because I have no idea who he was screaming "GRENADE!" to. They should have showed someone else trying to crawl out and not making it. Yeah, he's kind of a dick since the driver would've had to climb out after him and clearly had no time. (At least, I think so for this model of tank. If it has a separate driver hatch, then that's easily explained away with some random civvie panicking)
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Dec 3, 2013 22:48
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He's also kind of a dick because he's an rear end in a top hat army deserter who is all about killing people and stealing their poo poo. I have absolutely no idea how a tank works. Years of TV and film have told me that a grenade down the barrel would work. In theory it makes sense to me. If a shell can go one way then why can't a grenade go the other? It means Darryl is Indiana Jones. I'm good. Also, I saw Herschell reload once. I'm good.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:50
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verybad posted:Game of Thrones really isn't all that, anyway. Character deaths there serve the story just the same as in any other well written piece of fiction, it's just that it's telling the kind of story where important people die. You can kill off a character in print because he doesn't have an agent or a contract. It works for GoT: the show because they know roughly who is going to die and when. In TWD, unless they are writing seasons out in advance, they have contracts, agents, personalities, set chemistry and a million other things to consider that are part of the business of television that affect, for better or worse, just about every production you see on TV ever and always. Andrew Lincoln and Norman Reedus are more likely to have their characters die because they want to leave the show for other opportunities than for plot reasons. This show is a giant money printing machine for AMC and they aren't going to gently caress with the major cogs of that. Also again, criticizing TWD for being reticent to kill off major characters is ridiculous since they do it more often than probably any other show on TV today. And there are ways to gently caress up and hurt characters to create tension and drama in other ways besides killing them.
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Dec 3, 2013 22:54
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Blazing Ownager posted:I've heard the tank he was using doesn't work that way, but I'll accept it. Also it seemed as if he was operating the tank all by himself when he's supposed to have a crew, so it might account for a lot of that incompetency. Nah there were 2 men in it: 
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Dec 3, 2013 22:54
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Also he's a scrublord reservist so that explains all bad tank habits 
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Dec 3, 2013 22:55
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zoux posted:Also again, criticizing TWD for being reticent to kill off major characters is ridiculous since they do it more often than probably any other show on TV today. And there are ways to gently caress up and hurt characters to create tension and drama in other ways besides killing them. I wasn't criticizing the show, really. I don't think every story has to be about major characters dying, and I don't think those kinds of stories are inherently better.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:00
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verybad posted:I wasn't criticizing the show, really. I don't think every story has to be about major characters dying, and I don't think those kinds of stories are inherently better. You aren't, but it's come up in the thread a few times.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:02
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Darko posted:I agree. AMC probably wouldn't let that happen though, due to being too scared of monetary loss from the move. They could have a character arc where at the end he has washed and groomed hair. No need to kill him off, just make him look less like a greaseball. If I were Rick I would have hacked off Carl's hair as well. I am OK with the character armor.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:05
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Just caught the episode. It's interesting to read the reactions and see everyone go back and forth on the motivation between the Governor and Rick. I was just so bored until the guns went off. The governor had his requisite speeches with Woodbury 2.0, says his goodbyes to his new family...I didn't expect him to die in this episode but I found myself constantly checking the amount of time left until the tank started plowing down those walls. I laughed at the overwrought moments like Andrea 2.0 bringing dead Penny 2.0 onto the battlefield. Laughed at the crushed chess piece. Laughed at Andrea 2.0 executing the governor. Chuckled at the meat shield moment with Daryl. Rolled my eyes at "Lori is dead!" 2.0 moment with Judith, where Rick does his 1/4 crouch and Carl tries really hard to cry. Listening to Rick argue about sharing the prison with the Governor, whatever the 11-dimensional chess move it was supposed to be, was such a retread and unlikely that it just felt like we had to fill another 5 minutes of the show. These poor actors are having to act so hard to make these moments meaningful. David Morrissey does his best with an uninteresting portrayal of psychopathy. Scott Wilson's zen like moment of calm before decapitation is rightly being called out as one of the only earned emotions in this episode. I also liked him bargaining with the Governor in the trailer. A bit of a cartoonish response, "They're not my daughters." But there was more to that than anything involving Rick. On the technical side, someone asked what camera TWD uses — it's super 16mm film, which contributes to the dirty look. Yet I found the action directing to be flat and boring. Lots of wide shots, lots of tracking from a static camera. The POV shot from the Governor and the moments under the tank were some sparse attempts at adding a visual dynamism to a show that seems as aesthetically flat as its characters. Another missed opportunity! Glad all the characters are split up and we can get back to contained emotional moments and singular stories that this show has been grasping at ever since the rare successes of moments like "Nebraska" or "Clear." Whoever thought this episode even approached the emotions of those episodes is completely off the mark. The deaths also feel completely unlike Game of Thrones, not sure why that comparison is being made. I watch this show because I feel like it's my pop-culture duty and I like the general idea of genre television. I guess it's popular now because people like to analyze these theories about TWD's leadership choices and believability? To me that's the most tedious part of deconstructing a show. I think the commentary being so dull is a reflection of where the show is dramatically. Arguing about the best way to take down a tank? Eh. If the characters were interesting and believable I wouldn't care. But we all do, a lot. So doesn't that say something? Clearly a lot of you really enjoy the show, so my opinion is far from truth. But it's interesting to have such a wildly divergent opinion! See you all in February! 
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Dec 3, 2013 23:05
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Baldbeard posted:Edit: Whoever fed the rats to the zombies was taller than the girls. It dangles a rat down in-front of an adult zombies face and shines the flashlight level with it. Just kidding, I don't believe that.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:06
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Surlaw posted:I'd rather characters not die if it hurts the story. Shane dying was essential, Dale not so much. That still stands out as my single stupidest "well, someone had to die" moments and could have been handled almost any other way. Milton dying in 3 also really felt like wasted potential to me. I was sad to lose Merle since he created a good dynamic, but he went out in a way that actually told a good story. Milton and Hernandez were indeed a waste. Dale's was made more stupid because of Carl. Mexcillent posted:Milton dying was absolutely awful. I agree on this. So much poo poo just went wrong in Season 3. Agree with the former. The latter I would have been OK with him at least taking a round or two in the legs, or perhaps a chopped off arm due to zombie bite. Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 23:08
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Surlaw posted:I'd rather characters not die if it hurts the story. Shane dying was essential, Dale not so much. That still stands out as my single stupidest "well, someone had to die" moments and could have been handled almost any other way. Milton dying in 3 also really felt like wasted potential to me. I was sad to lose Merle since he created a good dynamic, but he went out in a way that actually told a good story. Dale's actor wanted off the show iirc
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Dec 3, 2013 23:24
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tomapot posted:The psycho girl was on her sister's shoulders, that's why she was eye level with the zombie. Haha, totally cracked me up. I hope it is something like that, and it somehow ties in Carol covering the murders for them. This thread would be comedy gold for the longest time.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:27
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Cocoa Ninja posted:I watch this show because I feel like it's my pop-culture duty and I like the general idea of genre television. I guess it's popular now because people like to analyze these theories about TWD's leadership choices and believability? To me that's the most tedious part of deconstructing a show. I think the commentary being so dull is a reflection of where the show is dramatically. Arguing about the best way to take down a tank? Eh. If the characters were interesting and believable I wouldn't care. But we all do, a lot. So doesn't that say something? Even the best episodes get their share of zombie survival tactics. It's the people, not the show. I thought this episode was about as good as it was ever going to be. It had a genuine emotional moment with Herschel, Rick's speech was nice (I don't see the 11th dimensional chessmaster here?), the Governor got to be a part of a non-poo poo storyline and is now done for good, Rick & Carl moment was kind of weak but I don't think Judith is dead so it doesn't really matter, and now the board is set for more interesting, personal stories (and this season has had a lot of success with those).
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Dec 3, 2013 23:29
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Milton was a bit of a waste if you're looking at it purely as a character that could have done more but I thought it was a solid story move to show the Governor's evilness at the time. Remember this was a time when people were still openly defending him and comparing him to Rick. Andrea was never really one of his people and Merle was a mercenary with a serious conflict of interest but Milton was his most loyal friend and soldier and then the one time he betrayed the Governor to try and save lives he was completely turned on. I thought that really showed how heartless and inhuman the Governor was. It completely destroyed any defense he had that he was doing this for anyone but himself. It just ends up being overshadowed and made unnecessary by the over the top slaughter of his people. But I think the Milton thing was much more effective. I don't know if I think Dale was a waste, but I do think it was sloppy. He was a bit of a spinning record when he died and that entire episode essentially was about how he had lost his ability to affect the group. His death managed to change them in a way that he had been failing to do all season. So it had a purpose and Hershell ended up taking his role and doing it better. But I think it was just poorly executed. Jackie at the end of Season 1 stands out to me as a bad death. She had no connection with the audience so her death meant nothing to us and the fact that everyone kind of just lets her die while Dale fights so hard to save Andrea ends up making it seem like the characters didn't have a connection with her either. Its not that I wish Jackie had more time, its that she really never had a purpose for living or dying on the show. You could remove her entirely and nothing would change. Only other character I can think of who might have been a wasteful death is maybe Martinez, but that's only because I kind of liked him in his small moments out from under the Governor's thumb. He might have been an interesting story. Rick is always saying that they've all done bad things they need to come back from but Martinez has done truly horrible thing unlike what Rick and his crew can claim and seemed like he might have been able to come back from it. The idea of a bad person trying to be good is only something we've seen small tastes of with Merle and the Governor. Cocoa Ninja posted:Arguing about the best way to take down a tank? Eh. If the characters were interesting and believable I wouldn't care. But we all do, a lot. So doesn't that say something?
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Dec 3, 2013 23:30
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There has been shitloads of discussion about issues that have nothing to do with tactical realism.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:50
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euphronius posted:There has been shitloads of discussion about issues that have nothing to do with tactical realism. It's about 60/40...
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Dec 3, 2013 23:52
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Cocoa Ninja posted:Just caught the episode. It's interesting to read the reactions and see everyone go back and forth on the motivation between the Governor and Rick. I was just so bored until the guns went off. That's the greatest sin of this episode. Not just getting to the meat of the episode immediately.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:59
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STAC Goat posted:Only other character I can think of who might have been a wasteful death is maybe Martinez, but that's only because I kind of liked him in his small moments out from under the Governor's thumb. He might have been an interesting story. Rick is always saying that they've all done bad things they need to come back from but Martinez has done truly horrible thing unlike what Rick and his crew can claim and seemed like he might have been able to come back from it. The idea of a bad person trying to be good is only something we've seen small tastes of with Merle and the Governor. I was actually really excited for Martinez's return for a few reasons, in the comics, he infiltrates the prison, then is found out and run down and finally strangled by Rick's hands in a field. I was looking forward to something similar and challenging but the current thematics around the latter character would probably have been needlessly blown apart, and I guess the governor needed something to show the extreme inner conflict he was undergoing.
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Dec 4, 2013 00:06
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I think this may be the character vignettes episodes season. It's a great way to lower the budget and tighten focus on characters, and if the two Governor-centric episodes are any indication, something they're not afraid of doing. By the end of the episode, everyone had paired off into groups that would make really interesting mini-casts. I'd love to see what development could happen in an episode focused on Ty and the kids, Bob and Sasha, or Beth and Daryl. If that's where this goes, Michonne almost certainly grabbed Judith to give her space to further flesh her out as a grieving mother.
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Dec 4, 2013 00:12
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STAC Goat posted:Milton was a bit of a waste if you're looking at it purely as a character that could have done more but I thought it was a solid story move to show the Governor's evilness at the time. Remember this was a time when people were still openly defending him and comparing him to Rick.
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Dec 4, 2013 00:12
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STAC Goat posted:You're making the mistake of assigning your values to others. I'd bet a lot of people who spent their time agonizing over the details or believability of the show effects or action scenes are people who do that a lot and not just people who are bored and unengaged so they're noticing stuff. There may be some of that, like with you, but this sort of show seems to draw out the people who love to pick a show apart and try to fit it into their world instead of escaping into their world and the Walking Dead has been getting this since Episode 2. None of this picking-apart you're describing ever comes across as satisfied viewership to me. Whether they'd recognize it as being unengaged or not, why do I want a show that does nothing but elicit discussion about how to fortify a building? Am I tuning in every week in order to discuss the proper use of mixed infantry-armor tactics? I might as well watch a youtube video from Syria. This is distinct from issues of survival. The ethics of leaving someone behind? Really interesting — like Shane shooting the guy in season 2 to save his own skin. The morality of murder to save your own skin — possibly Carol with these flu victims. What's the price on your soul of living in a world that asks tough choices of the living? That stuff rocks. And it's absolutely (in a positive way) associated with escapism. But "Did that tank really have an open autoloader?" Yawn. That's mistaking props and setting for world building. Interesting world building is a combination of backstory, implication and character development that this show only rarely achieves. It's like this whole industry of "zombie survival" books. They're pages and pages of how to hack a zombie's head open the best, how to defend a stairwell...that to me is like saying "Here's a fantasy world. There exist dwarves and elves and wizards and magical rings. Sounds like it would make a pretty neat story, huh? I don't have any characters, really. Just a bunch of prop design ideas. Maybe you can think of some interesting stories while you read?" I find I don't engage on any of the other plots because I simply don't care. Maybe Tyrese is cool in the comics? I don't get the attraction in the show other than he's emotionally unstable. Is Bob an alcoholic? I guess — why does it matter? Do Glenn and Maggie have any defining moral or character arcs other than their doughy eyes for each other? I don't know. I actually like Daryl because the show took the time to explain his relationship with Merle, his abusive father backstory, and ties this all into a believable ability to survive in the woods thanks to his time as a redneck kid. I wish they could take that time with everyone else.
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Dec 4, 2013 00:33
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verybad posted:I thought this episode was about as good as it was ever going to be. It had a genuine emotional moment with Herschel, Rick's speech was nice (I don't see the 11th dimensional chessmaster here?), the Governor got to be a part of a non-poo poo storyline and is now done for good, Rick & Carl moment was kind of weak but I don't think Judith is dead so it doesn't really matter, and now the board is set for more interesting, personal stories (and this season has had a lot of success with those). Sorry for the double-post and the heapings of negativity, it's just nice to have people to bounce ideas off of. But just to respond, my unclear reference to 11th dimensional chess was this idea that Rick could co-exist with the governor or possibly convince his posse to switch sides. I feel like we've been down this road so many times, as soon as Rick saw that tank and the hostages he should've packed his poo poo up and moved, the prison has been nothing but trouble. I also think it's telling that the conceivably best episode is one that tears down all of the season three and four setup in favor of a completely different architecture going forward. But I also agree with you — small personal stories. Bring them on and prove me wrong!
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Dec 4, 2013 00:40
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The prison is way more secure than anything else out there. They were moving around for like 8 months trying to find a permanent place.
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Dec 4, 2013 00:43
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henkman posted:Dale's actor wanted off the show iirc I could see that, the actor is good friends with Darabont and probably wanted out the minute he was fired.
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Dec 4, 2013 01:27
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