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Alchenar posted:cf. Afghanistan, where literally everything in the southern half of the country is effectively a small-arms proof bunker.
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Dec 5, 2013 02:12
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Alchenar posted:We need to stop the hordes of Red Army soldiers overrunning all of Eastern Europe (who are only there because Germany kicked down their front door)! Kicked down their front door and burned down the living room and most of the kitchen too.
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Dec 5, 2013 04:59
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Kicked down their front door and burned down the living room and most of the kitchen too. Hey now. They took half of the kitchen before burning the rest down and set it up back home.
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Dec 5, 2013 05:01
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SeanBeansShako posted:Hey now. You laugh, but I have read a document about liberation of a concentration camp, where the one of the officers remarked that the laundry facilities are excellent, and they absolutely must have them.
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Dec 5, 2013 06:27
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Bringing home a washing machine as a war trophy would be pretty funny.
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Dec 5, 2013 06:57
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Bringing home a washing machine as a war trophy would be pretty funny. I don't think this is fiction. Officers and anyone with authority to get stuff transported to back home stole anything of value. Russian soldiers just looooved watches of all kinds. How would such a russian farmer look at a machine that washes his clothes. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 08:19
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In Beevors Berlin 1945, he says that soviet troops were baffled by hollow toothpicks. Poor russians 
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Dec 5, 2013 08:30
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Subsistence economies are a single bad harvest/flood/early freeze away from starving to death at the best of times, let alone when they have to support a hundred thousand new mouths to feed from nowhere. Thank you for the answer! I have another question if you don't mind. I know that your speciality is not Sweden during the 30YW but I have read from several non-scientific sources that as many as one third of the Swedish male population was lost as soldiers during the war (and in some villages there was one man for every ten women). To me that sounds insane, do you think there is any truth to that? Btw, I think it's a horse on a battlefield she's taking meat from.
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Dec 5, 2013 09:18
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Qvark posted:Thank you for the answer! I have another question if you don't mind. I know that your speciality is not Sweden during the 30YW but I have read from several non-scientific sources that as many as one third of the Swedish male population was lost as soldiers during the war (and in some villages there was one man for every ten women). To me that sounds insane, do you think there is any truth to that? It is estimated Serbia lost well over 30% of its adult male population in WW1. SaltyJesus fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 10:26
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Hah, I wonder if my great uncle and your great grandfather et al ever caught sight of one another? Of course, defending those things is easier than attacking up them... The crisis of the 17th century sounds fascinating. Is there a book you'd recommend for a beginner to the topic (the only knowledge I have on that period is from lurking this thread)?
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Dec 5, 2013 12:42
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Qvark posted:Thank you for the answer! I have another question if you don't mind. I know that your speciality is not Sweden during the 30YW but I have read from several non-scientific sources that as many as one third of the Swedish male population was lost as soldiers during the war (and in some villages there was one man for every ten women). To me that sounds insane, do you think there is any truth to that? There's been worse.
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Dec 5, 2013 15:18
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meatbag posted:In Beevors Berlin 1945, he says that soviet troops were baffled by hollow toothpicks. Poor russians He also points out that the relative material wealth found in German homes really pissed off the Russian soldiers something fierce, because if the Germans had it so good, why the hell did they want to come to Russia and steal and destroy all the Russians' stuff?
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Dec 5, 2013 15:28
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Fangz posted:Military grade body armour (with ballistic plate inserts) can stop AK rounds. Modern body armor with plates can stop full-length sniper rifle rounds at close range. This was a Dragunov SVD at under 100 yards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-UNFSZ8VKU Between modern body armor and modern battlefield medicine, it's gotten so people die on the battlefield in one of two ways: Either something really bad happens and you're killed instantly, or you bleed out. For the US in WW2, the KIA:WIA ratio was about 1:2.3. In Korea, it was about 1:3. Vietnam was about the same, but post Vietnam it really started to drop, and in OIF it was 1:9. It's still declining, but most of the low-hanging fruit is gone and continued improvement is very gradual. Part of that is battlefield medicine, but part of that is a willingness to spend great amounts of money on protection. For example, in WWII, the Sherman tank was designed to be mechanically reliable, fairly inexpensive to produce (about $500,000 in today-money), and easy to transport. Crew protection was pretty far down the list. The M1 Abrams, on the other hand, had crew survivability as the single most important design priority, everything else took a back seat, with transportability coming in dead last. Dozens of M1s have taken battle damage, and a smaller number have been combat losses (like, not repairable, tank destroyed), but only a handful of crew have been killed. But an M1 costs about $8,000,000 in 2013 dollars. Flesnolk posted:Probably my last thing on this 'cause it's getting closer to TFR talk, but does this work the same way for stuff like stone and concrete (say in an urban setting) or is your typical building material not hard/thick enough to stop a good round? Depends on the round, depends on the building. A few years ago I saw a video on Google of a series of ballistics tests against a number of "reference" buildings of the sort soldiers would be using in Iraq and elsewhere, ranging from plain old wood framing and drywall to brick and concrete, with the weapons used ranging from 9mm to 30x113mm (the round fired from the Apache's cannon). But, drat you ephemeral nature of the internet, the link is dead and I can't find it anywhere else. It was very illustrative. Basically if someone's firing 30mm HEDP at you you probably cannot find a building strong enough to hide in. And most of the stuff people in movies hide behind won't stop a rifle round. Edit: Oh, Rent-A-Cop found it. Nice. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 16:07
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I know we don't talk much about South American stuff here, but what a clusterfuck that was. Can any one recommend some reading on that subject?
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Dec 5, 2013 16:19
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Qvark posted:Thank you for the answer! I have another question if you don't mind. I know that your speciality is not Sweden during the 30YW but I have read from several non-scientific sources that as many as one third of the Swedish male population was lost as soldiers during the war (and in some villages there was one man for every ten women). To me that sounds insane, do you think there is any truth to that? I kind of doubt those figures re: the 30YW since most of the troops in Swedish service were mercenaries. It sounds more like something from the Great Northern War.
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Dec 5, 2013 16:27
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InspectorBloor posted:I don't think this is fiction. Officers and anyone with authority to get stuff transported to back home stole anything of value. Russian soldiers just looooved watches of all kinds. How would such a russian farmer look at a machine that washes his clothes. The Soviets had edit extra watches out of images like the "Raising a flag over the Reichstag" picture. Fake edit: although some people claim the second watch was a compass.
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Dec 5, 2013 16:32
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Readman posted:The crisis of the 17th century sounds fascinating. Is there a book you'd recommend for a beginner to the topic (the only knowledge I have on that period is from lurking this thread)?  The Iron Century, by Henry Kamen Qvark posted:Thank you for the answer! I have another question if you don't mind. I know that your speciality is not Sweden during the 30YW but I have read from several non-scientific sources that as many as one third of the Swedish male population was lost as soldiers during the war (and in some villages there was one man for every ten women). To me that sounds insane, do you think there is any truth to that? Alekanderu posted:I kind of doubt those figures re: the 30YW since most of the troops in Swedish service were mercenaries. It sounds more like something from the Great Northern War. The numbers cited by the people you're reading, Qvark, probably came from the famous study of the Parish of Bydgea. Sweden bled itself dry for Gustavus Adolphus's ambitions. The reason most of the army was mercenaries (in addition, of course, to the part where everyone's army was mostly mercenaries--that's how you get an army) is that there were not enough Swedes. Well, anymore. meatbag posted:In Beevors Berlin 1945, he says that soviet troops were baffled by hollow toothpicks. Poor russians HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 16:57
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Falukorv posted:I edited in my post, but it's not an AK-47, but a modified FN Minimi. But it's the first version of the AK 5 made, which has alot more metal than the current version the Swedish Army uses, which has more polymer parts, including parts of the handle and the butt stock. I don't know exactly how much lighter, basing on what my untrained eye sees, as they have the current AK5C on display in the same museum which looks alot more plastic, while the old AK5 you can hold is almost completely metal, aside from the handle. This is from a few pages back, but since I'm actually in the Swedish army I felt I had to answer this. I'm not a combat engineer any more though. The Ak 5A, as the first version is now retroactively known, is a pretty heavy rifle for a big reason. It was more or less "winterized" FN FNC which was designed to be entered into the NATO standardization trials of 1975-77. Development was rushed in order to have a prototype ready. The prototype was then promptly kicked out of the trials because of its abysmal performance and build quality. The FNC entered into Swedish army trials in 1981-82 had the benefit of five more years of development and managed to impress both the Swedish and the Belgian army. It was however not the best rifle, the winner of the trial was the Swedish made FFV 890C which was based on the Israeli Galil but was considered politically unsuitable as it could be seen as support of the Israeli Defence Forces. The FNC was then modified with a new pistol grip, gas block, collapsible butt stock, larger trigger guard and charging handle (so they could be operated while wearing heavy gloves), new trigger group and a host of other changes. Since the FNC was designed to fire rifle grenades its receiver had to be able to handle the extra pressure, which meant more steel and more weight. Rifle grenades were never planned for in Sweden but the extra weight was not seen as a problem since a heavier rifle absorbs more recoil and is therefore easier to train conscripts on. The Ak 5A performed well both in Sweden and with Swedish units in former Yugoslavia, Liberia and Afghanistan but eventually had to be renovated. The new version, Ak 5C, has a new shorter and heavier barrel, adjustable butt stock, rails for different accessories, and a bolt catch. The double gas position of the Ak 5A was discarded. All these adjustments actually made the rifle heavier, 5 kg fully loaded instead of 4,5 kg for the Ak 5A. The Ak 4 was a licensed built copy of the G3 with virtually no modifications. It did weigh more at 5,3 kg, but not by a lot. Sorry if this is too recent to be of interest to anyone but me. Swedish military history and foreign politics during the cold war is my biggest hobby horse. Edit: List of rifles tested for the 1981-82 trials: ArmaLite AR 18 Beretta AR 70 Colt M16A1 FFV 890C FN FNC HK 33 SIG 540 Steyr AUG Stoner 63 crab hat CRAB HAT! fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 17:05
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combat engineer posted:Sorry if this is too recent to be of interest to anyone but me. Swedish military history and foreign politics during the cold war is my biggest hobby horse. Besides, as far as I can tell most people in this thread focus on modern stuff.
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Dec 5, 2013 17:09
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a travelling HEGEL posted:On the contrary, the point of this thread is to get as many different people talking about as many different things as possible.  in that we have more easily-accessible detail to argue about.
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Dec 5, 2013 17:28
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Arquinsiel posted:It's just more interesting Edit: For instance, there's an Italian guy from the late 1400s or early 1500s (I forgot his name, but he's quoted in one of the War And Society books) who thinks that a village on fire in the background of your battle is like a meal's dessert course--it adds zip and interest. You can also set the nearest village on fire if it's getting dark and you need light to fight by. 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 17:34
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Saw a relevant obituary today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...b0e1_story.html quote:Paul Aussaresses, a French army general who in the final years of his life dispassionately revealed the torture techniques he employed during the Algerian war for independence and defended them as appropriate measures in the modern age of terrorism, has died. He was 95. Anybody read his memoir? Sounds like it had good reviews.
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Dec 5, 2013 18:20
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a travelling HEGEL posted:There's waaaay more tragicomedy in my period, though. Torching villages for smoke/light was a common thing on the Eastern Front of WWII as well. Plus more modern warfare brings fun times when peasant conscripts misunderstand technical details, such as a German prisoner insisting that German tanks use compressed air for armour.
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Dec 5, 2013 19:02
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Ensign Expendable posted:Torching villages for smoke/light was a common thing on the Eastern Front of WWII as well.
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Dec 5, 2013 19:10
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Yeah, but 20th century generals are less likely to celebrate it on an aesthetic level. With the Nazis you never know.
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Dec 5, 2013 19:12
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Yeah, but 20th century generals are less likely to celebrate it on an aesthetic level. I read excerpts from diaries of a Nazi concentration camp guard who poetically contemplated how Autumn's falling leaves juxtaposed against the camp's courtyard reminded him of the circle of life and stuff like that.
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Dec 5, 2013 19:14
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wdarkk posted:With the Nazis you never know. Edit: steinrokkan posted:I read excerpts from diaries of a Nazi concentration camp guard who poetically contemplated how Autumn's falling leaves juxtaposed against the camp's courtyard reminded him of the circle of life and stuff like that. I dunno, I think there's something different about the flavor of early modern horror compared to modern atrocities. The latter takes place against the post-Enlightenment consensus that that sort of thing shouldn't happen (and it's sentimental, like when Nazis begin to feel sorry for themselves because they've been exposed to the things they were doing); the former is part of combat. You cease to be a Christian the moment you begin to trail a pike, and all that. (Although tbh, I am simplifying--a number of generals attempted to ride herd on the morality of their soldiers and people were developing the idea of a code of conduct for war. The first recorded war crimes trial was in 1474.) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 19:16
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a travelling HEGEL posted:The great thing about that dude is that he probably didn't hate his enemies personally, and he certainly didn't care one way or another about the noncombatants. It was just what you do. It's amoral, but it's a much more easy-to-deal-with policy than religious fanatics or ideologues or something. Would you rather live next to him or to the Muenster Anabaptists? Or, you know, Nazis. Can you shed a little light on that first war crimes trial?
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Dec 5, 2013 19:54
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Is anybody listening to Dan Carlin's new Hardcore History episode? I'm psyched; I love WW 1 history.
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Dec 5, 2013 20:17
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brozozo posted:Can you shed a little light on that first war crimes trial? Peter von Hagenbach is given administration over Upper Alsace by Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy. He apparently terrorized the populace as well as instituted heavy taxation; he also attempted to end the independence of the cities Breisach and Mülhausen. The area revolted against him, and he was overthrown and captured in 1474, then tried by an Imperial tribunal. Convicted on all counts. But the conviction didn't stop Charles the Bold from completely destroying Upper Alsace, which helped kick off the Burgundian Wars (which would have happened anyway I think, since everyone hates Burgundy). Edit: Note that the Emperor has no particular love for Charles the Bold or his agents. http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/bulletin/2006/spring/gallery.php The law prof quoted in this link is wrong when she says that this was the precursor of the international war-crimes tribunal though, since none of this...Empire stuff worked like a modern state does. Edit 2: I know very little about the Burgundian Wars. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 20:18
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Yeah, but 20th century generals are less likely to celebrate it on an aesthetic level. I've came across letters and diary excerpts of common soldiers and higher officers on the eastern front that play with this imagery in their writing. It seems that it's mostly people with higher education, the reception of literature surely plays a huge part. Btw, I enjoyed reading Arkady Babchenko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le8AcGHL9_s Power Khan fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 20:36
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Edit: For instance, there's an Italian guy from the late 1400s or early 1500s (I forgot his name, but he's quoted in one of the War And Society books) who thinks that a village on fire in the background of your battle is like a meal's dessert course--it adds zip and interest. You can also set the nearest village on fire if it's getting dark and you need light to fight by. I vaguely remember a Brit said something similar during the Boxer Rebellion.
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Dec 5, 2013 21:00
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Fine! The people I study are no more special than the people all of you study. Y'all happy? 
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Dec 5, 2013 21:16
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Why did everyone hate Burgundy?
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Dec 5, 2013 21:26
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tweekinator posted:Why did everyone hate Burgundy? Edit: Ugh, Charles the Bold's death was nasty though. Sucks to be him. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 21:34
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Fine! The people I study are no more special than the people all of you study. Y'all happy? Pfft, people, people are boring. Now excuse me while I look at these blueprints of tank engine air filters. Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 21:37
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How many Thirty Year War people have starred in an anime? 
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Dec 5, 2013 21:46
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steinrokkan posted:How many Thirty Year War people have starred in an anime?
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Dec 5, 2013 21:48
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meatbag posted:In Beevors Berlin 1945, he says that soviet troops were baffled by hollow toothpicks. Poor russians This reminds me, I have to re-read Ivan's war by Catherine Merridale. The first time I read I broke out in tears every other page and couldn't really concentrate on all the horror. If someone is interested into the story of the red army from 1939 to 1945, this book is really great. A warning, though: Only dead people and people without souls can read it without weeping until their eyes bleed. Another thing: Can someone suggest a few fresh, modern books about Mesopotamian history? The last time I searched for myself Google flooded me with lots of century old books, which wasn't really what I wanted. Or has research into Mesopotamia just stopped a hundred years ago? I don't think so, but you never know... 
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Dec 5, 2013 22:56
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Götz von Berlichingen's page mentioned a large-scale peasant revolt he fought in, and it had me wondering. Medieval-ish fiction and fantasy portrays such revolts a lot, but were mass, armed uprisings of the peasantry ever really much of a thing in those days? (Possibly the wrong thread, but it seemed relevant.)
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Dec 5, 2013 23:02
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