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IMO most of the HH books are decent to good, the only ones definitely skippable are Descent of Angels, Battle for the Abyss, Nemesis, and most of the collected story ones.
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Dec 10, 2013 03:00
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Lincoln`s Wax posted:There's some awesome books and there are a couple of real stinkers. If you read through the thread, you'll see which ones people hate. I'm not a super-critical reader, so I found cool, enjoyable points in almost all of the books but the ADB and Abnett books are really fantastic and I tend to plow through them in a couple of sittings versus some of the other books. I know it gets suggested every other post but knowing the movies and tv stuff that you're into, if you haven't read the Night Lords books, I think you'd enjoy it. Hmm the NL books look really interesting. I will pick one up soon. Thank you 
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Dec 10, 2013 03:03
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jng2058 posted:My question about the HH books is how much is skippable? Do you have to choke down the crap books to understand what happens in the good ones? If you're just after the main story (being the crusade to Earth), aside from the first three and the First Heretic, the rest are skippable since they deal with what happens to the other Primarchs and the general galaxy. It's more a case of reading the better written ones and ignoring everything else.
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Dec 10, 2013 03:34
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Maybe I'm alone in this but discounting the short story compilations, the Horus Heresy series has had a pretty strong run with the last five or so books. The last book I remember completely disliking was Outcast Dead. And the last one I felt was only marginally worthwhile was Deliverance Lost. And those books were like eight novels ago or whatever.
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Dec 10, 2013 03:40
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jng2058 posted:My question about the HH books is how much is skippable? Do you have to choke down the crap books to understand what happens in the good ones? Not at all, you can go to the Lexicanum to fill in anything you want to know about without having to read a whole book. As far as HH goes, I'd say do 1-3, 12, 14, 15, 19, 24 and 27. That's Thousand Sons, The First Heretic, Propsero Burns, Know No Fear, Betrayer, and Unremembered Empire. I think these are all well written, with great stories that are central to the plot. I would personally include Fulgrim, for a little more of the early heresy, but some parts drag a bit. I would also recommend reading the two books about The Lion, and Fear To Tread, immediately before or after Unremembered Empire. It would add alot to the characterization of some major players in the novel. My ideal read through would be something like 1,2,3,5,12,14,15,19,24,6,21,11,27.
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Dec 10, 2013 04:37
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I am reading mark of calth, and i simply do not understand what the hell happens in the last few pages of Mcneill's story Calth That Was. Ventanus kills Hol Beloth, with the anthame dagger. The rams a landspeeder into the dreadnaught, and the bomb goes where exactly? Does Ventanus killing Hol Beloth open a rift? Also regarding Anthame My understanding is that the Anthames were forged from the weapon stolen from the interex. Erebus forges 8 anthames and gives them to 7 word bearers and keeps one for himself. But how does Criol Fowst from know no fear have one?
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Dec 10, 2013 04:39
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UberJumper posted:I am reading mark of calth, and i simply do not understand what the hell happens in the last few pages of Mcneill's story Calth That Was. He opened a rift in the Dreadnaught and rammed him and the bomb all the way into it.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:45
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UberJumper posted:I am reading mark of calth, and i simply do not understand what the hell happens in the last few pages of Mcneill's story Calth That Was. He was opening a warp rift so he could escape the explosion, the killed him and shoved the bomb through the rift so it didn't take out the cavern quote:Also regarding Anthame An athame is a religious ritual knife, typically associated with witchcraft due to the Middle Age book "Key of Solomon". Erebus makes use of a particularly potent one for the plot and to make his ritual objects, but any properly consecrated knife is an athame. You can buy them in stores or online http://www.amazon.com/Magickal-Finds-RATH6-Simple-Handled/dp/B000WS8XJU
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Dec 10, 2013 05:57
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jng2058 posted:My question about the HH books is how much is skippable? Do you have to choke down the crap books to understand what happens in the good ones? I would honestly recommend skipping #3, Galaxy in Flames. It covers the Isstvan betrayal, which is crucial to the start of the HH, yes, but it's also really bad and I don't think that reading the book will actually gain you anything over reading the Lexicanum summary of the book. Other than that, everything by Abnett or ADB is good and worth reading. A Thousand Sons is worth reading because it's a lead-in to Prospero Burns. Fulgrim wasn't bad, but I don't think it was particularly good. I did like seeing one of the Traitor Legions get to fall, though.
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Dec 10, 2013 07:13
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Just read the Abnett and ADB books, everything else is pretty mediocre at best.
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Dec 10, 2013 13:47
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To be honest, they're all "skippable" if you know anything at all about the Heresy. Horus turns, taking half of the Marine Legions and fights his way to Earth. He and the Emperor have a climactic fight - the Emperor wins, but is confined to the Golden Throne for the next ten-thousand years. Essentially, everything else is filler. It is my sincere belief that the HH series was never meant to run this long - they intended on making a few books to expand on the fluff, but the books sold so well, GW realized they were sitting on a cash cow. But since the general outline os set in stone regarding the HH, there is nothing that has been printed that is absolutely mind-blowing and changes the outcome that we already know. There are some cool new additions, like the Perpetuals and backstory on the Primarchs, and who would have thought the Ultramarines could actually be cool (Dan Abnett, that's who!) Here's the thing: if you like 40K and have the time, read all the HH books. Make your own decision on whether the books are good or bad. If you don't have the time, inclination, or money, just pick up the Abnett and ADB books, as previously stated. There are only a couple of books that are pretty much reviled (Descent of Angels) and some that are unfairly maligned because of the author (Vulkan Lives,) but like any other long running series, you're going to have ups and downs.
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Dec 10, 2013 14:48
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I'm not that crazy about the Perpetuals. The Emperor staying alive for untold ages through pure force of will was a more interesting background than him being one of many space Highlanders. They're both dumb, but the psychic thing is dumb in the 40K way. In any event, I'm sure ADB can spin it into something cool.
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Dec 10, 2013 15:47
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Donnerberg posted:I'm not that crazy about the Perpetuals. The Emperor staying alive for untold ages through pure force of will was a more interesting background than him being one of many space Highlanders. They're both dumb, but the psychic thing is dumb in the 40K way.
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Dec 10, 2013 15:59
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Also, it used to be said that the Emperor was the reincarnation of all of Earths shamans who committed group ritual suicide to give him form. They did this bc the warp was becoming stronger and more turbulent, preventing the souls of shaman who died from reincarnating. I'm pretty sure its not canon anymore though. Is there any fluff or books/literature on the unification wars? or with Thunder Warriors?
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Dec 10, 2013 16:10
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Waroduce posted:Is there any fluff or books/literature on the unification wars? or with Thunder Warriors?
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Dec 10, 2013 16:20
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I'm building a dirty Armageddon Ultramarine army so I'm getting in the mood to read about the Ultramarines. I got burned with the Ultramarine books. But playing Space Marine was Awesome. Is there any books out there about Ultras that's not horrible?
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Dec 10, 2013 17:30
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Throb Robinson posted:I'm building a dirty Armageddon Ultramarine army so I'm getting in the mood to read about the Ultramarines. I got burned with the Ultramarine books. But playing Space Marine was Awesome. Is there any books out there about Ultras that's not horrible? Know no Fear by Dan Abnett
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Dec 10, 2013 17:32
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There's also that rad flashback from Void Stalker where the Ultramarines kick the poo poo out of the Night Lords, one of the few times that the Codex has been portrayed as an invaluable tool that allows its practitioners to function as an impossibly cohesive and effective force rather than a stupid plot device used to get the protagonist into trouble like in McNeill's books.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:42
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I thought they were portrayed pretty well in Betrayer too. I mean yeah, they went down fighting, but they fought well.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:57
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berzerkmonkey posted:To be honest, they're all "skippable" if you know anything at all about the Heresy. Horus turns, taking half of the Marine Legions and fights his way to Earth. He and the Emperor have a climactic fight - the Emperor wins, but is confined to the Golden Throne for the next ten-thousand years. Essentially, everything else is filler. I'd say Betrayer isn't skippable since it's an event that hadn't been previously mentioned in the fluff (Word Bearers + World Eaters attack on Ultramar), and it's so character driven you need to at least read The First Heretic beforehand (preferably TFH, Aurelian, Know No Fear and maybe Prospero Burns).
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Dec 10, 2013 18:11
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Just read the Abnett and ADB books, everything else is pretty mediocre at best. Pretty much this in my opinion too. I'm not a huge fan of the HH concept or its execution but Abnett is in good form since even his earlier BL days so his books and ADBs are pretty good. berzerkmonkey posted:Not really, other than The Outcast Dead. I think there are bits and pieces floating around and collected on places like Lexicanum, but who knows how much is legit and how much is fan-made. Honestly I wouldn't bother reading the Outcast Dead either, it was BAD. The thunder warrior stuff is just meant to be backstory filler I wouldn't expect to hear more about it and don't really see the point anyway.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:15
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Mechafunkzilla posted:There's also that rad flashback from Void Stalker where the Ultramarines kick the poo poo out of the Night Lords, one of the few times that the Codex has been portrayed as an invaluable tool that allows its practitioners to function as an impossibly cohesive and effective force rather than a stupid plot device used to get the protagonist into trouble like in McNeill's books. I don't have the books handy, but was this really how it was portrayed? I remembered the salient point from that passage being 'welp they brought literally an entire former legion (that was one of the biggest legions to begin with) against our remnants.' Not that the silly Ultramarines tripping over the Codex while a laugh track plays doesn't start to wear thin too. I liked the way the Codex was referenced in Dawn of War II--a source of inspiration and tactics, but neither an albatross nor a win-button macguffin.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:26
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JerryLee posted:I don't have the books handy, but was this really how it was portrayed? I remembered the salient point from that passage being 'welp they brought literally an entire former legion (that was one of the biggest legions to begin with) against our remnants.' The portrayal was that, despite having been split in dozens of Chapters for a thousand years, and without Guilliman to lead them, the Ultramarines and their Successors were mounting a fast, efficient and overwhelming assault, with every single element acting seemingly in tandem yet all operating independently.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:37
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JerryLee posted:I don't have the books handy, but was this really how it was portrayed? I remembered the salient point from that passage being 'welp they brought literally an entire former legion (that was one of the biggest legions to begin with) against our remnants.' Yeah, it was. It's specifically pointed out that the Codex is giving the Ultramarines successors an overwhelming advantage in coordinating their assault, to the point where it feels a little like ADB pushing back against the motif of the Codex just being a thing used to punish main characters of bad stories for carrying the wrong sized combat knife.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:44
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Clearly I need to reread that. Thanks!
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Dec 10, 2013 21:25
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Nephilm posted:I'd say Betrayer isn't skippable since it's an event that hadn't been previously mentioned in the fluff (Word Bearers + World Eaters attack on Ultramar), and it's so character driven you need to at least read The First Heretic beforehand (preferably TFH, Aurelian, Know No Fear and maybe Prospero Burns). Well, it is in the sense that since the end is pretty much set in stone, nothing in between is going to change it. In essence, you could skip any of the HH books and not be out of the loop in terms of the HH as a whole. It's like this: you already know the outcome of WW2. You can either a) choose to simply live with that knowledge; or b) you can read about it, possibly delving very deep, and get far more information, both exciting and banal. Either way, the outcome is the same - the trip to that outcome, though, depends on how much effort the reader is willing to put in. Personally, I read all the HH books as they come out, even though I've known the end for 20 years now - but I'm a completest. And old.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:33
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Yeah, it was. It's specifically pointed out that the Codex is giving the Ultramarines successors an overwhelming advantage in coordinating their assault, to the point where it feels a little like ADB pushing back against the motif of the Codex just being a thing used to punish main characters of bad stories for carrying the wrong sized combat knife. They directly compare it to being led by a primarch in its efficiency and skill. Which goes a long way to explain why it was so successful for so long - Gullieman essentially created a giant "if-then" book to cover any situation and it worked until the necrons and tyranids popped up as an outside context problem. In the bigger picture, stuff like that really shows why ADB is as good as he is. Generally you don't want a fan to write things because you get their fan favorites and fan hatreds coloring everything. ADB has said he dislikes the blood angels, ultramarines, and space wolves. But when he writes them, it may make them lose, but he does so in a way that it doesn't feel like he is wailing on them. The wolves were facing total annihilation with a fleet at the Fang in The Emperor's Gift, but at no point did they feel like they were getting punked. In Betrayer they took huge losses, but still "won" by out maneuvering and making their point. Lorgar achieved his goal, but the Ultramarines still forced the heretics to retreat. The losing side still comes off awesome to their fans.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:59
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Fried Chicken posted:They directly compare it to being led by a primarch in its efficiency and skill. Which goes a long way to explain why it was so successful for so long - Gullieman essentially created a giant "if-then" book to cover any situation and it worked until the necrons and tyranids popped up as an outside context problem. The Codex doesn't stop working for weird bug-eyed monsters like necrons and nids, though it does go into more detail regarding the known threats of the time (orks, eldar).
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Dec 10, 2013 22:56
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Its mentioned in one of the books (I think Helsreach) that there is no remaining full copy of the Codex Astartes. Not even the Ultramarines have a copy that is 100% there.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:09
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Shadowhand00 posted:Its mentioned in one of the books (I think Helsreach) that there is no remaining full copy of the Codex Astartes. Not even the Ultramarines have a copy that is 100% there. That would actually make a pretty good novel, come to think of it. Some history obsessed Space Marine (a Blood Raven, maybe?) travelling from sector to sector trying to recreate the full Codex Astartes from all the bits and pieces that each Chapter has. Naturally he (and his squad?) would end up having to fight alongside different Chapters against whatever problem that Chapter was having at the moment. It could be a nice Tour Around the Galaxy where you can compare and contrast not only the various enemies that Imperium fights against but also how the different Marine Chapters do business.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:45
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jng2058 posted:That would actually make a pretty good novel, come to think of it. Some history obsessed Space Marine (a Blood Raven, maybe?) travelling from sector to sector trying to recreate the full Codex Astartes by stealing all the bits and pieces that each Chapter has. Naturally he (and his squad?) would end up having to fight alongside different Chapters against whatever problem that Chapter was having at the moment. It could be a nice Tour Around the Galaxy where you can compare and contrast not only the various enemies that Imperium fights against but also how the different Marine Chapters do business. Have Sandy Mitchell write this and I'd probably read it forever.
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Dec 11, 2013 01:40
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Shadowhand00 posted:Its mentioned in one of the books (I think Helsreach) that there is no remaining full copy of the Codex Astartes. Not even the Ultramarines have a copy that is 100% there. That's bullshit. What's mentioned is that marines don't carry the full codex with them into battle because that'd be unwieldy, but they carry pieces for symbolic reasons. Also, although the Codex Astartes was initially structured and penned by Guilliman, strategies and tactics from the finest minds in the Imperium has been added to it through milenia - it's more accurate to say that different chapters have slightly different editions (supplements) of the same core book.
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Dec 11, 2013 02:13
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Fried Chicken posted:In the bigger picture, stuff like that really shows why ADB is as good as he is. Generally you don't want a fan to write things because you get their fan favorites and fan hatreds coloring everything. ADB has said he dislikes the blood angels, ultramarines, and space wolves. But when he writes them, it may make them lose, but he does so in a way that it doesn't feel like he is wailing on them. The wolves were facing total annihilation with a fleet at the Fang in The Emperor's Gift, but at no point did they feel like they were getting punked. In Betrayer they took huge losses, but still "won" by out maneuvering and making their point. Lorgar achieved his goal, but the Ultramarines still forced the heretics to retreat. ADB's strength is definitely in writing characters and drawing humanity from a character who should have none. He's happy to write protagonists that are completed deluded and who get called out on it by those around him. Lincoln`s Wax posted:Have Sandy Mitchell write this and I'd probably read it forever. The Blood Raven equivalent of Black Adder trying to gain favours and respect with the founding chapters and Imperial organisations while putting together the Codex would be a magical thing.
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Dec 11, 2013 02:27
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Nephilm posted:That's bullshit. What's mentioned is that marines don't carry the full codex with them into battle because that'd be unwieldy, but they carry pieces for symbolic reasons. Also, although the Codex Astartes was initially structured and penned by Guilliman, strategies and tactics from the finest minds in the Imperium has been added to it through milenia - it's more accurate to say that different chapters have slightly different editions (supplements) of the same core book. Found where I saw this. This is told from the perspective of a Black Templar Chaplain: quote:But no plan survives contact with the enemy. Fortification and digging in during extensive worldwide Crusades are a necessity of the wars we fight. While the Templars may not cling to the Coddex Astartes with a tenacity bordering on worship of holy scripture, it is still the most comprehensive treatise on Space Marine warfare ever written, penned by the hand of the Emperor's own son, Lord Guilliman of Macragge. Its value is immeasurable to any commander, no matter what divergences are found in a Chapter's culture. I'm still not done with the book, but I knew I saw it somewhere. Shadowhand00 fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Dec 12, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 06:21
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So, just finished Angel Exterminatus. It has its moments, but it's not that great. The pace plods a bit at times with too many characters that are not given much to do and contribute little to the story. As others have noticed, too, there is so much foreshadowing in this book it's almost fiveshadowing. The Good: - Gives some spotlight time to the Iron Warriors, who have long been neglected in the fluff department. - Fulgrim's evolution into effete madness can be entertaining. His carnivalia of altered freaks is a good sign that he's by now worse than the demon that was possessing him. - McNeill's vocabulary and descriptions can be a bit overdone, but are mostly good. As a foreigner especially, I liked seeing things described in intense/unusual ways. The flashback to Fulgrim's discovery in particular was rather touching and added some contrast the story needed. -A bit more insight about the Emperor and the relations between primarchs. The Bad: -Nykona Sharrokyn: peerless duelist, expert tactician, unerring sniper, invisible astartes ninja, invincible voidfighter. He may be giving Richard Rahl a run for his money in the Gary Stu department. -Excess Foreshadowing: Every character that has been in another book will take HUGE steps toward becoming his future version. They will also allude to their future misdeeds/deaths/titles so hard they are practically elbowing your ribs and going "Eh? Eh? Get it?" -Plot-mandated Stupidity: Abounds on all sides. Having trained soldiers walk into a room where your troops are being butchered by entrenched defenders to only then draw a weapon is dumb. Having the cackling evil madman give long soliloquies to the 'defeated' several times in a row and have them repeatedly rise up to get back in the fight is dumb. -Two sips of this here drink will make you a perpetual slave to Slaanesh! DON'T DO DRUGS KIDS. -Predictability. Having two traitor primarchs in the same book with no comparable opposition makes the real deal painfully obvious. The Ugly - Wacky scientist saves the day with technobabble. - The Dark Eldar plot is contrived, stupid and abortive. Did they really think the xenos-hating marines on both sides would not kill them the moment they had an excuse to? were they just going to smuggle millions of soulstones in their pants while everyone else wasn't looking? Did they even consider that the one aboard the loyal ship would likely be killed if it ever came to space battle? - Subtle as an H-Bomb: No one implies of infers anything. They shout every single idea (relevant or not) from the rooftops. Twice. Anyone falling towards Khorne will start shouting blood god catchphrases out of the blue. There are a ton of good ways one could show Sharrokyn's distaste at killing Lucius. The worst thing one could do is have him outright state it aloud to no one. -Immaterial: Other than a bit of character fluff, the plot of the book matters almost nothing to greater story of the Heresy. It's as trivial to the big picture as an Elder Scrolls sidequest. One of those you do to waste time or make a bit of cash just before you enter the point of no return in the story and HAVE to go face the actual mad god or something. VanSandman posted:Yeah Betrayer is as close as you're going to get. I don't think anyone's ever written what Khornate Berzerkers do in their downtime. There's the audio short-story Chosen of Khorne. Kharn in particular is very hermetic and just goes about adhering to some vague plan he has for greater glory, but is always raging inside with myriad thoughts of butchering everything he can see. And if the excuse comes up, he makes those daydreams turn real. As for the other knornates, they are pretty much warlords of the non-subtle kind. They carve little empires in the Eye, plan for Blood Crusades upon the Imperium, duel for position, try to bolster their standing using their past Legion officer status (Kharn seems to despise those in particular). They also occasionally turn dumber than orks and butcher their entire forces in an afternoon because someone started screaming.
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Dec 12, 2013 02:07
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I liked how Kharn was characterized, in chosen of Khorne. He had all these violent thoughts inside that berserk brain of his. Yet he was still capable of functioning normally, instead of being the frothing madman his daydreams show him to be. Its like as if he is so enraged that anger doesn't affect him anymore. Basically he got so mad that it looped back into itself and made him sane(to a certain degree) again.
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Dec 12, 2013 16:28
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I think it was more implying that Kharn has some semblance of self-control that his (former) brothers are lacking. Probably had something to do with his level head (being Angron's equerry) and his reluctance to get the nails implanted in the first place. Of course, this is a new development - Kharn used to be the posterboy for rage personified, though now he seems able to keep it in check.
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Dec 12, 2013 17:53
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One of the things I loved about Betrayer was that ADB was able to make the battle scenes feel chaotic as the nails took hold, but it never felt like "RAAARGH! SKULLS!". You got a real sense of Kharn struggling to hold on to some form of coherence and knowing that he would fall soon. The scene where he can see that the charge against the Ultramarine fortifications was suicidal was especially well done because he KNEW it was insane, but he also knew that he couldn't reign in his men so he was forced to push ahead and make the insane gambit work because the alternative was them all dying before they got close. There was a sense of exhaustion, resignation and also the shame of fighting alongside a broken primarch that didn't care for them at all. ADB took the most basic, generic, two dimensional beserkers and actually made the battle interesting.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:10
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Sephyr posted:- The Dark Eldar plot is contrived, stupid and abortive. Did they really think the xenos-hating marines on both sides would not kill them the moment they had an excuse to? were they just going to smuggle millions of soulstones in their pants while everyone else wasn't looking? Did they even consider that the one aboard the loyal ship would likely be killed if it ever came to space battle? I don't even understand what the hell ether of the Dark Eldar were trying to do. Were they working together? On the off chance that the traitors and loyalists would gun each other down? Then they could take all the gems? Or what? It made no god drat sense.
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Dec 13, 2013 02:30
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So uh, thanks for recommending Betrayer. The first 300 pages were pretty good, as far as 40k fiction goes, but holy poo poo the last 4th of the book was great. Now I need to go re-read the last 5 or 6 pages to mouse over all of those spoilers...
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Dec 13, 2013 02:33
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