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Sash! posted:I'm glad someone finally had the stones to acknowledge that that's what the Federation has always been. Even in Kirk's days. In TOS. An "evil warmongering militaristic government"? We need another dose of perspective over here.
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Dec 10, 2013 04:38
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McSpanky posted:An "evil warmongering militaristic government"? We need another dose of perspective over here. 'Inalienable'... If only you could hear yourselves? 'Human rights.' Why the very name is racist. The Federation is no more than a 'homo sapiens' only club.
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Dec 10, 2013 04:41
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Starfleet is a paramilitary organization from 200 years in the future depicted by a 20th century TV show. Don't be an obtuse motherfucker.
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Dec 10, 2013 04:46
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Gammatron 64 posted:Real sets and model spaceships, puppets\animatronics and actual practical effects will pretty much always look better than CGI, except they're a lot more expensive and are sadly becoming a lost art. If anything, the Star Wars prequels show that a couple actors in front of a green screen looks really bad. The best effects are a combination of both practical and CGI, they both have strengths and weaknesses at accomplishing different things. The Xenomorph still looks great despite being a guy in a suit, where as Gollum in LOTR is going to look bad if he doesn't already. Physical models of space ships being blown up look terrible because they're tiny little fragile things being vaporized by fireworks instead of honking huge metal monoliths filled with machinery and people being shot full of holes. CGI is also way better at grand vistas and city/landscapes than static matte paintings, but the prequel trilogy demonstrates what happens when you go too far and just stick actors in front of green-screens 24/7. In just about any case though, you're going to be much more limited with movement and camera angles with practical effects than you're going to be with CGI. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I think it's entirely possible to agree that TNG went too far with the "all humanity is in total harmony and enlightenment" thing (even though we did see humans engaging in unethical poo poo) while not abandoning one of the core tenets of the Star Trek setting that is "humanity no longer makes war with itself". That's the common aspect of absolutely every Star Trek production to date, and it's a big part of the Star Trek identity that doesn't consist of technobullshit tricks. The formula I'm referring to is the Alien of the Week aspect of the show, which was what generated most of the conflict in Trek. With hundreds of hours of that brought to us by TOS/TNG/VOY and parts of DS9/ENT, I don't really know what more they can do with it that hasn't already been done 5 times over. That conflict doesn't need to be replaced by a post apocalyptic federation or whatever was trending 5 years ago and just caught wind with studio execs, but it does need to be something. The culture novels manage to make a mostly peaceful post-scarcity society interesting, but they're also completely un-translatable to TV. Rutibex posted:That's the problem the series was never designed to be serialized. It was designed to be episodic, a new adventure every week. All the tropes in the show where designed around that idea. The Federation utopian society, star ships that can sterilize planets from orbit, fast warp drives, transporters, etc. All that really only works in an episodic way. You can see what they where going for in most of the three seasons of TOS and the first several seasons of TNG. Episodic dramas are dying, and I don't think they're ever coming back. They're the result of the technological constraints of the time (kind of like silent movies) and people born after those constraints have been broken won't have any nostalgia for them and won't continue to watch them. Many if not most scripted TV shows of the last century (including Trek) were wanna be serials forced into an episodic format, and I'll go as far as to say its a large reason why TV has historically been seen as a vastly inferior medium than movies. Comedies can still get away with being episodic, but even here serialization has big advantages (ex: Arrested Development). The only scripted dramas which actually benefit from an episodic format are things like the Twilight Zone. Each episode has something to say, it says it, and it moves on. If you want a classic episodic Star Trek show made today, then maybe don't have the same crew in every episode. Use the opportunity to explore Star-fleet as well as other worlds, and face problems unique to individual missions, ships, crews, and people. This would give them the creative freedom to not return to the status quo at the end of every episode. Kirk/Spock/Doc was a great dynamic, but essentially static which causes problems in the long haul. TNG confronted issues like why the hell Riker is still XO of the Enterprise, but it couldn't offer an actual solution without Frakes leaving the show because the episodic format forced it to be about the Enterprise and that means anyone who leaves the Enterprise effectively goes to The Corn Field. If TNG wasn't locked into an episodic format, Riker could have decided he needs to get over Troi, leave his comfortable position on the Enterprise, and the show could have followed him to his new ship where he has to wrestle with new issues and grow as a character.
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Dec 10, 2013 04:49
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Tighclops posted:Starfleet is a paramilitary organization from 200 years in the future depicted by a 20th century TV show. Don't be an obtuse motherfucker. He's quoting Azetbur from Star Trek VI. It was a good quote!
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Dec 10, 2013 05:04
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Tighclops posted:Starfleet is a paramilitary organization from 200 years in the future depicted by a 20th century TV show. Don't be an obtuse motherfucker. He said to the Star Trek thread.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:04
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Reese uses the kill-trophies he took off of dead Jem'Hadar soldiers and made into a necklace to do peaceful science for the benefit of all peoples.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:14
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We're going to replace the crews of starships with advanced AIs installed in our existing combat vessels for increased tactical efficiency in exploration.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:21
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:If TNG wasn't locked into an episodic format, Riker could have decided he needs to get over Troi, leave his comfortable position on the Enterprise, and the show could have followed him to his new ship where he has to wrestle with new issues and grow as a character. You know... that makes me think you might actually be able to do a semi-serialized Star Trek. Well, in fact, it's already been done, it's called DS9. DS9 is episodic, but has story arcs and character relationships that develop over time. You could say that DS9 got away with that as it was rooted in one place, but why not consider the Enterprise to be a place as well, albeit a mobile one? Imagine if in Best of Both Worlds, Picard got killed off and Riker became captain of the Enterprise with Shelby as his first officer. Now, that probably would have been a worse show so it's not really the best example, but you know what I mean. I could see a TOS reboot show that still has a planet of the week format of sorts, but with someone like Kor or Koloth as a recurring antagonist and the threat of the Klingon Empire looming over the series, moreso than in TOS. I think you could kinda fudge it and have a show that's both somewhat episodic but also has season-length story arcs. Of course Enterprise sort of tried that and failed, but I haven't seen much of Enterprise so I can't really comment on it. Or maybe it just wouldn't work anymore. Now I've only seen a season and a half of Doctor Who, but it seems to follow that same format and appears to be really popular, so I dunno.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:23
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quote:He's quoting Azetbur from Star Trek VI. It was a good quote! -Earth, Shitler, 2013.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:24
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Tighclops posted:-Earth, Shitler, 2013. If you're too dense to recognize a well chosen quote appropriately used, that's your problem pal. Anyone who can bring out a good Trek quote in the Trek thread deserves proper recognition, regardless of what side of the debate they're on. If that doesn't work for you....why are you even IN the Trek thread? 
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Dec 10, 2013 05:34
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jng2058 posted:If you're too dense to recognize a well chosen quote appropriately used, that's your problem pal. Anyone who can bring out a good Trek quote in the Trek thread deserves proper recognition, regardless of what side of the debate they're on. If that doesn't work for you....why are you even IN the Trek thread? If that doesn't work for you... then double-dumbass on you! E: Good lord does semi-randomly surfing Memory Beta lead to some weird poo poo. "Xenexian women reach the peak of their fertile cycle once every three months. In Xenexian tratition, the Tribe leaders are permitted to provide a female with a child if they wish to conceive and do not have a mate. The Tribal leaders also practice ritual sex with adolescant females, although the goal is considered to be more a blessing then an attempt to fertilize. All sex is consensual during such rituals. Sometimes Chieftains are considered to be "breeding machines" for their tribe to increase numbers as needed. Anyone, including offworlders may make this request to a Xenexian Clan Chieftain, much as Dr Selar did to M'k'n'zy of Calhoun during her throes of Pon Farr." Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 05:36
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Gammatron 64 posted:Or maybe it just wouldn't work anymore. Now I've only seen a season and a half of Doctor Who, but it seems to follow that same format and appears to be really popular, so I dunno. I'm really of the opinion that Doctor Who is feeding the niche American desire for cheesy optimistic escapism. And if Doctor Who can do it, you can have new Trek.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:38
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When I think of new trek all I imagine is cgi fireballs and people shouting into the camera to create drama and tension. edit: And shaky cam, lots and lots of shaky cam. A BIG FUCKING BLUNT fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 05:40
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Gau posted:I'm really of the opinion that Doctor Who is feeding the niche American desire for cheesy optimistic escapism. And if Doctor Who can do it, you can have new Trek. I'm not too far into Doctor Who, but Season 1 of Doctor Who with the 9th Doctor was really, really bad. Like, Syfy original movie bad. The 10th Doctor is a huge improvement, but the jury is still without a verdict regarding that show as far as I'm concerned. I basically think that Doctor Who is so popular because Star Trek isn't on the air. Watching TNG and Doctor Who back to back is not a good idea because it makes Doctor Who look really, really lovely in comparison.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:42
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I tried to give it a chance but it was like about fighting evil mannequins or some poo poo and sort of dumb. And I like my dumb space opera with Klingons.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:43
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Otisburg posted:Reese uses the kill-trophies he took off of dead Jem'Hadar soldiers and made into a necklace to do peaceful science for the benefit of all peoples. 1. Reese's unit included a descendant of the notorious Salamanca clan and those people do not care for the benefit of all people. 2. Just people? Why not all sentient beings, huh? The Federation truly is a Homo Sapiens only club it seems.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:46
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Vagabundo posted:1. Reese's unit included a descendant of the notorious Salamanca clan and those people do not care for the benefit of all people. 1. Tío Hector is the Christopher Pike for a new generation 2. All sentient beings are people
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Dec 10, 2013 05:47
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Gammatron 64 posted:I'm not too far into Doctor Who, but Season 1 of Doctor Who with the 9th Doctor was really, really bad. Like, Syfy original movie bad. The 10th Doctor is a huge improvement, but the jury is still without a verdict regarding that show as far as I'm concerned. Doctor Who is older than Star Trek
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Dec 10, 2013 05:47
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Start with season 5, it's a designated "starting point" (new Doctor and showrunner) and marks a gigantic quality increase. Although you may still not like it, Doctor Who is pretty silly and not really space opera at all. The Eleventh Hour is about the Doctor befriending a ten-year-old and then giant space eyeballs chase an escaped shapeshifting space serpent that hangs from the ceiling until the Doctor saves the day. Trek fans will probably want to watch Farscape first. It's more Trek-ey.
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Dec 10, 2013 05:47
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jng2058 posted:If you're too dense to recognize a well chosen quote appropriately used, that's your problem pal. Anyone who can bring out a good Trek quote in the Trek thread deserves proper recognition, regardless of what side of the debate they're on. If that doesn't work for you....why are you even IN the Trek thread? What about my reply gave you the impression I didn't recognize the quote? I was referencing "Earth, Hitler, 1938" from that same scene. You're making me sad. 
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Dec 10, 2013 05:47
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Apollodorus posted:1. Tío Hector is the Christopher Pike for a new generation 1. He was just a dirty rata who talked to the DEA. 2. If only you could hear yourself!
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Dec 10, 2013 05:49
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Vagabundo posted:1. He was just a dirty rata who talked to the DEA. 1. Old School Starfleet guys do NOT talk to the Feds  2. 
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Dec 10, 2013 05:51
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bobkatt013 posted:Doctor Who is older than Star Trek I think he was just referring to Americans audiences. I'm not saying I agree with him, there's probably always been an audience for Doctor Who in America, but Star Trek is a much more American program and resonates more with American sensibilities. Edit: for the record, I don't think Doctor Who stands up to Star Trek. British sci-fi is very strange to me. Hip-Hoptimus Rhyme fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 05:56
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Tighclops posted:What about my reply gave you the impression I didn't recognize the quote? I was referencing "Earth, Hitler, 1938" from that same scene. You're making me sad. Forgive me, Mr. Tighclops. I am not accustomed to working with non-living devices that...forgive me again. Your service record says that you *are* a Goon. I must accept that.
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Dec 10, 2013 06:15
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Hip-Hoptimus Rhyme posted:I think he was just referring to Americans audiences. I'm not saying I agree with him, there's probably always been an audience for Doctor Who in America, but Star Trek is a much more American program and resonates more with American sensibilities. Classic Who is pretty much universally lovely, it has all the charm of a bad episode of Voyager and sub-Original Series production values. There are only a few notable exceptions and even those look like something somebody made for a university film class. Imagine if TOS had been allowed to go on in the style of Season 3 until the mid-eighties, replacing the captain and crew of the Enterprise every five years or so as Gene went progressively more and more crazy and began to beg for death as opposed to being forced to produce this stupid loving series any more. That's Classic Who.
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Dec 10, 2013 06:23
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I just learned Star Trek Attack Wing exists, and those miniatures are giving me serious nostalgia for the Trek Micro-machines ships. I'll probably never buy them but I'm curious how the miniatures compare, anybody seen them?1st AD posted:Actually shits pretty hosed, the wealthy are siphoning away all out wealth and locking it up for themselves, the environment is hosed and in addition to inhospitable weather we'll also see shortages of clean water and food for a lot of people, and humans get worse and worse every year about killing people for reasons. Whatever you think of the present, the one thing we seem to be doing right is having fewer wars and killing fewer people in them. Its hard to believe it listening to the news, but the historical record indicates we're probably living in the most peaceful time that's ever existed in human history. Its been a long road, but we're getting from here to there. 
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Dec 10, 2013 06:30
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Gau posted:Classic Who is pretty much universally lovely, it has all the charm of a bad episode of Voyager and sub-Original Series production values. There are only a few notable exceptions and even those look like something somebody made for a university film class. Imagine if TOS had been allowed to go on in the style of Season 3 until the mid-eighties, replacing the captain and crew of the Enterprise every five years or so as Gene went progressively more and more crazy and began to beg for death as opposed to being forced to produce this stupid loving series any more. That's Classic Who. You're being really harsh to something that had zero budget and was originally a kids show. Yeah it hasn't aged well, but some of those episodes were pretty interesting in concept and ground breaking at the time. Classic Who isn't bad just old.
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Dec 10, 2013 06:35
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:I just learned Star Trek Attack Wing exists, and those miniatures are giving me serious nostalgia for the Trek Micro-machines ships. I'll probably never buy them but I'm curious how the miniatures compare, anybody seen them? I have just the thread for you, good sir: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3578389 (I am way too into this game) -- So this is one that always puzzled me. The USS Enterprise commanded by Picard is often referred to as "The Flagship of the Federation." My (admittedly limited) nautical understanding is that a "flagship" is where a flag officer like a Commodore or Admiral commands a larger fleet from, literally where he "keeps his flag." The USS Enterprise seldom acts as the "flagship" of anything, and indeed spends the overwhelming majority of the time operating on its own very far from any type of other Federation vessels doing just... random poo poo. What is it supposed to mean when they say it's "the Flagship of the Federation?"
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Dec 10, 2013 06:41
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:I just learned Star Trek Attack Wing exists, and those miniatures are giving me serious nostalgia for the Trek Micro-machines ships. I'll probably never buy them but I'm curious how the miniatures compare, anybody seen them? The models are pretty neat. I own the basic set and only abject end-of-quarter poverty has stopped me from buying more. 
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Dec 10, 2013 06:42
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I own like... one of everything, and two of every Federation thing. My enjoyment of the toy spaceship game is unhealthy. I unironically love that the icon for cloaking in the game is that dumb prop that Kirk hauled out of the Romulan Warbird in Turnabout Intruder. Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 10, 2013 06:45
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I'm really excited to get Attack Wing. The X-Wing miniatures game always looked neat (and I heard tons of great things about it) but Star Wars ain't my bag. I've heard the paint jobs on the Attack Wing miniatures aren't the best, but other than that they seem pretty solid. The base set and the Defiant are being shipped to me soon, can't wait to battle plastic space ships with my friends.
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Dec 10, 2013 06:46
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Otisburg posted:I have just the thread for you, good sir: It seems to be honorary. Sort of "this is the best ship in the fleet, and every other ship should want to be like her." Picard (and Jellicoe for a couple of episodes) did seem to have seniority over any non-admiral and commanded task forces of ships in various episodes and twice in the movies. Presumably it may mean that the captain of the Enterprise is the most senior captain in Starfleet. Of course that could also be chicken and the egg where only the most senior captains get to be the captain of the Enterprise if you see what I mean.
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Dec 10, 2013 06:52
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apophenium posted:I'm really excited to get Attack Wing. The X-Wing miniatures game always looked neat (and I heard tons of great things about it) but Star Wars ain't my bag. I've heard the paint jobs on the Attack Wing miniatures aren't the best, but other than that they seem pretty solid. The base set and the Defiant are being shipped to me soon, can't wait to battle plastic space ships with my friends. They made Gul Dukat a strictly better (if only by a bit) captain in game mechanics terms than Benjamin Sisko. 
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Dec 10, 2013 06:55
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Otisburg posted:They made Gul Dukat a strictly better (if only by a bit) captain in game mechanics terms than Benjamin Sisko. Well, he WAS better. The one time they really faced off, fleet to fleet, Dukat should have won. The only reason he didn't was Prophets Wormhole Fuckery.
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Dec 10, 2013 07:05
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The figures don't look too bad, though I'm halfway convinced Galoob made some sort of Faustian pact to get the detail they did on some of those Micro Machines ships.
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Dec 10, 2013 07:06
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:I just learned Star Trek Attack Wing exists, and those miniatures are giving me serious nostalgia for the Trek Micro-machines ships. I'll probably never buy them but I'm curious how the miniatures compare, anybody seen them? And that's not all, in fact! We have documented statistics -- the U.N. and World Bank -- that show that across the world we're seeing fewer children per woman, increased literacy, higher GDP per capita, and longer life spans. The average person in Vietnam today has a life expectancy equal to that of someone in the USA in the 80s. The average number of children per woman in Bangladesh in 1960 was 7, with a life expectancy of only 47, now it is 2.2 children per woman with a life expectancy of 70. By almost every measure of human development, almost every country except those that are truly destitute and in social collapse, human lives have improved tremendously since the mid 20th century.
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Dec 10, 2013 07:15
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:The figures don't look too bad, though I'm halfway convinced Galoob made some sort of Faustian pact to get the detail they did on some of those Micro Machines ships. The Attack Wing pieces aren't as nice as the X-wing ones, which are gorgeous, but throwing an ink wash over them is quick and easy, and makes them pop decently. Also the scale is all over the place. The Defiant is nearly as long bow to stern as the D. I guess they're just meant to be "game tokens" rather than proper miniatures.
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Dec 10, 2013 07:15
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Sash! posted:I'm glad someone finally had the stones to acknowledge that that's what the Federation has always been. Even in Kirk's days. In TOS. This is approaching some Terry Nation-esque "all federal governments are inherently despotic" nonsense.
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Dec 10, 2013 07:28
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Otisburg posted:So this is one that always puzzled me. I'm pretty sure the intended idea is that the Enterprise is sort of a "first among equals" starship. All Starfleet ships may represent the Federation, there are even other Galaxy-class starships... but the Enterprise is the starship that gets put on all the brochures and posters, and it's the posting that every bright-eyed cadet hopes to have both for the actual experience and for the shining bullet point on their resume (or personnel file, or whatever). And why? Because, at least to the minds of the 24th century Federation, "for five hundred years every ship that has borne the name of the Enterprise has become a legend."
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Dec 10, 2013 07:34
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