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The White Dragon posted:DQ has never really been a thing outside of Japan. It's a big name in its home country, but it's Just Another Fuckin Game With That DBZ Guy to most of the rest of the world and at a casual glance it's entirely indistinguishable from Blue Dragon. Yeah, for better or worse, outside of Japan there is really only one name in JRPGs that has any widespread notoriety and that's Final Fantasy.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:37
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Both of those have had better female characters traditionally then most mainstream FF games. Uhhh citation needed, the Dragon Quest games have always been full of bunnygirl casino waitresses and poo poo, and the thing that's coming to mind immediately is DQ8 and the loving focus on Jessica's breasts and her wardrobe of fetish outfits ala PE3. Games like DQ4 and 5 have had plenty of fine female characters, to be sure, but I don't particularly see how that's any different than Final Fantasy. And unlike any Dragon Quest game, FF6, 13, arguably 12, and X2 have all had female protagonists. Aside from Toriyama's Parasite Eve 3 and Lightning Returns crap, there's more creepy fanservice poo poo in both DQ and Persona than in the FF series (I can't really say anything for the mainline SMT games, Nocturne is the only one I've played for more than an hour, but they seem fine I guess so maybe you're right).
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Dec 11, 2013 23:38
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FFVII is still the best selling JRPG of all time, correct? There really is no competition for FF in terms of being the JRPG series. Other series have a lot of entries, like SMT and Atelier and Tales, but they can't compete with FF in terms of name recognition. I don't think the poster was trying to say FF is the best JRPG series out there but it is pretty clearly the most popular.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:40
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Aside from Toriyama's Parasite Eve 3 and Lightning Returns crap, there's more creepy fanservice poo poo in both DQ and Persona than in the FF series (I can't really say anything for the mainline SMT games, Nocturne is the only one I've played for more than an hour, but they seem fine I guess so maybe you're right). Mainline SMT barely has functioning characters. They're not about people with personality as much as they are ideologies and opposing forces so on average FF does better since SMT barely has characters.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:43
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Out of boredom I used the SA Search function to get a rough count on how many times any given FF is mentioned. I: 208 II: 127 III: 291 IV: 742 V: 6,102 VI: 764 VII: 1,942 VIII: 589 IX: 747 X: 2,770 XI: 2,971 XII: 3,286 XIII: 2,330 XIV: 3,473 XV: 298 And just for the hell of it, I checked again with just the roman numerals. I was expecting a bunch of false positives from words that had the letter 'V' in it, but turns out the search is actually kind of intelligent and only checks separate words. I: 26,216,860 (take a wild guess why this is so high) II: 267,060 (got some hits from people talking about other sequels) III: 88,280 IV: 135,769 V: 458,560 (also got a ton of hits from people going v  v and youtube links)VI: 11,966 VII: 35,047 VIII: 25,288 IX: 5,846 X: 603,610 (this got both X and X-2) XI: 22,182 XII: 2,498 XIII: 32,661 (again, got XIII, XIII-2, and XIII-3) XIV: 73,569 XV: 1,040 That XIII number seemed way too low, so I decided to check some key words. Lightning: 44,774 Toriyama: 839 Hallway: 11,535 Corridor: 9,623 Azure: 1,855 13: 288,541 Turns out we all really love FFX/X-2. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 23:44
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BlitzBlast posted:a lot of effort to prove the known truth that FFX and FFX-2 rule There's X and X-2 in its rightful place as the best all around package of any Final Fantasy.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:46
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BlitzBlast posted:Turns out we all really love FFX/X-2. That's okay, they're pretty great games.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:46
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NikkolasKing posted:FFVII is still the best selling JRPG of all time, correct? Not sure if it's the best selling of all time, but over 10 million sales sounds pretty drat high. It's fair to say it's probably the most well-known, globally, at least. [e]: Well, tyranny of the majority. X/X-2 are now the Best Game in the series (by search function). Could be worse. 
Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 23:47
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I'm glad the thread as a whole continues on in great taste.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:47
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VIII is the least talked about outside of the SNES games and XV. Fascinating. ApplesandOranges fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 23:47
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I'm glad to see X gets the love it deserves. Just makes me sad TDI never finished his LP. Does anyone know what's up with that? Like, will he be LP'ing the HD remake? And while the LP might be gone, it is not forgotten. 
NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 23:49
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He's doing Fallout right now, but apparently the last year had kind of blown up so he had to drop it. I don't think he knows if he'll come back to it.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:50
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Pesky Splinter posted:Not sure if it's the best selling of all time, but over 10 million sales sounds pretty drat high. It's fair to say it's probably the most well-known, globally, at least. And we can all now objectively agree that the total mess of a game that is FFII is getting the thorough drubbing that shitheap deserves. Praise be to Yevon <makes the lamest team cheer pose in history>
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Dec 11, 2013 23:54
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I'm okay with X/X-2 and V being the best depending on search methodology.
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Dec 11, 2013 23:58
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Hrm what two games got completely cribbed from to create the only enjoyable part of XIII? V and X. I rest my case.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:01
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Uhhh citation needed, the Dragon Quest games have always been full of bunnygirl casino waitresses and poo poo, and the thing that's coming to mind immediately is DQ8 and the loving focus on Jessica's breasts and her wardrobe of fetish outfits ala PE3. Games like DQ4 and 5 have had plenty of fine female characters, to be sure, but I don't particularly see how that's any different than Final Fantasy. And unlike any Dragon Quest game, FF6, 13, arguably 12, and X2 have all had female protagonists. I'd argue that FFXs protagonist, or at the very least its focal character, was Yuna instead of Tidus. The story is pretty much hers for the greater part of the game and its not until the end of the game where Tidus exerts any agency on the story. The closest things to a "main" character in FFXI is Shantotto and the protagonist for what a lot of people considered to be the best expansion of the game was Prishe. All of FFXIVs city states are ruled by women and they all kick rear end in their own way. I'd say that FFs as a whole has plenty of good female characters, its just a case of really bad writing that affects everyone.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:09
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm glad to see X gets the love it deserves. According to the Fallout LP: The Dark Id posted:”Hey, what happened with Final Fantasy X’s LP?!” The Dark Id posted:That is the distant, distant future. Drakengard 3 is next... hopefully... Final Fantasy X is on a long rear end hiatus but I don't consider it dead. We'll see. In other words, no idea when he'll get back to it, but he does plan to finish it eventually.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:13
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Fantastic. My 2014 LP Year is set then between that and the Xenosaga Trilogy.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:16
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:And Motherfucking Golbez the dark warlock knight. I'd like to point out that being able to play as Golbez in FFIV: After Years is probably my favorite part of the game, and if he didn't look so ridiculous (ie: if he still had his ridiculous armor and wasn't walking around half naked), it would have come close to redeeming the game. Unfortunately, that did not happen and the game is disappointing.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:46
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NikkolasKing posted:FFVII is still the best selling JRPG of all time, correct? Yeah, this is what I was getting at, I deliberately didn't say best because that's subjective and up in the air anyhow, but it is undisputably the most popular and well recognised. BottledBodhisvata posted:By idiots. PE3 and Compilation of XIII were both Toriyama, not SE in general, and whilst I'm glad you found value in some female characters you are, perhaps with good intent, idealising women by insisting their arcs and development have to be fantastic or not be there at all. By all means criticise when they do anything gross with the characters, like we all have with Lightning in XIII-3, but to suggest removing significant female representation is a good thing? What has that achieved? Sorry ladies for our gross, leering presentation of our female protagonist last game, we've made it up to you by removing anyone of your gender from the gameplay our next mainline title so there's no way that can happen again!!? (Not to suggest that is Nomura's reasoning, I think he's just writing what he knows, but just to follow your line of arguement ...) By all means criticise gross representation of female characters, but why not join for call for better ones rather than settle for none?
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Dec 12, 2013 00:46
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The "taking my ball and go home" approach to feminism.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:49
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I'd argue that FFXs protagonist, or at the very least its focal character, was Yuna instead of Tidus. The story is pretty much hers for the greater part of the game and its not until the end of the game where Tidus exerts any agency on the story. I think Tidus is pretty squarely the protagonist of the game because, for one, he's the constant point of view for the story. It NEEDS him to work--it's the story of an outsider disrupting an ancient tradition, basically. It's the tale of a society collapsing because of ONE dissenting opinion, which is his. Tidus is the wrench in the gears that makes the story go--without him, Yuna would probably have married Seymour and died at his hands. Auron would maybe have attempted to interfere, but his story and Tidus' are really closely linked thanks to Jecht and all that poo poo and I've gone on long enough. But the point is, Tidus is definitely the protagonist for X, although that doesn't really diminish Yuna's important in the plot at all. It's just not her that's driving the story. FFXII has Ashe, who completely drives the story, basically. The main character role sort of passes between her and Balthier after you meet them. Basch only serves to introduce you to her and have the whole Gabranth thing. Nobody else actually instigates the plot at all--Vayne basically just conducts the whole of his schemes largely offscreen. You don't even meet him face to face until the final battle, and most of the Judges just sort of waylay your party apropos of nothing. The only person who COULD be the protagonist of the story is Ashe, because she's the only one with a clear story arc, a clear goal (even if it changes) and, above all, she's the only one doing poo poo. I love FFXII. A Steampunk Gent posted:Yeah, this is what I was getting at, I deliberately didn't say best because that's subjective and up in the air anyhow, but it is undisputably the most popular and well recognised. You know, I agree completely. We ought to have better women represented in games and it wouldn't help to just remove them from the game completely. To be honest, I wasn't particularly serious about the suggestion in the first place, and I was more rankled that it drew offense. I'd intended it as maybe a vague metaphor but to be honest, it's a bad sentiment. We really should have better female characters in gaming and it's sad that there's not.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:53
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A Steampunk Gent posted:PE3 and Compilation of XIII were both Toriyama, not SE in general, and whilst I'm glad you found value in some female characters you are, perhaps with good intent, idealising women by insisting their arcs and development have to be fantastic or not be there at all. By all means criticise when they do anything gross with the characters, like we all have with Lightning in XIII-3, but to suggest removing significant female representation is a good thing? What has that achieved? Sorry ladies for our gross, leering presentation of our female protagonist last game, we've made it up to you by removing anyone of your gender from the gameplay our next mainline title so there's no way that can happen again!!? (Not to suggest that is Nomura's reasoning, I think he's just writing what he knows, but just to follow your line of arguement ...) By all means criticise gross representation of female characters, but why not join for call for better ones rather than settle for none? You see, there have been no successful Native American/Asian/Latino male leads/comedy stars/action heroes, so we just cast white people. Since all we cast is white people, there are never any Native Americans/Asians/Latinos cast as leads/comedy stars/action heroes, so we never see any successful movies. Since there have been no successful Native American/Asian/Latino male leads/comedy stars/action heroes, so we just cast white people. Except even more ridiculous because it's gender instead of ethnicity and video games are inherently more ridiculous than film.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:55
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There's also the fact you can write a good story overall that isn't good at depicting women. A lot of shounen fall into this trap, even the more well-written ones like Rurouni Kenshin. I think Final Fantasy is more or less aimed at the same demographic as your typical shounen so it makes sense they'd share this problem.
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Dec 12, 2013 00:58
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BottledBodhisvata posted:
I'm printing this and framing it on the wall: I changed someone's mind on the internet. (Seriously though, sorry for calling you an MRA earlier, glad we could come to an understanding  )
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Dec 12, 2013 00:59
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BottledBodhisvata posted:I think Tidus is pretty squarely the protagonist of the game because, for one, he's the constant point of view for the story. It NEEDS him to work--it's the story of an outsider disrupting an ancient tradition, basically. It's the tale of a society collapsing because of ONE dissenting opinion, which is his. Tidus is the wrench in the gears that makes the story go--without him, Yuna would probably have married Seymour and died at his hands. Auron would maybe have attempted to interfere, but his story and Tidus' are really closely linked thanks to Jecht and all that poo poo and I've gone on long enough. See, I dont really see it this way. To me Tidus didn't really had that much agency until the very end, where he tells everyone to go gently caress themselves when he learned what the pilgrimage actually entails. Then you could argue that the story has more weight from his side because around that time he also learns who Sin is and what effect saving Yuna will have on him. Up until then I always saw him as a dude following everyone around being really exited to get Yuna trough her pilgrimage. But its been years since I last played the game, maybe playing the title again when it comes out on the vita well help me see more to his character.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:13
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They kind of share the role, Tidus is the cause and Yuna is the effect, neither one would be able to save Spira without the other and they both have centre stage roles in the plot. Tidus is the obvious choice as the PC because of the aforementioned fish-out-of-water perspective and that allows him to kick off about how messed up everything is, but that mainly enables Yuna's character growth and allows her to redefine her role as Spira's summoner. You literally could not write the same plot without those two interlocking roles.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:21
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You know what'd be great if they change in the re-release of X? If you didn't have to spend 2*N minutes sending jerks at the end of the game.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:23
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Mr. Maltose posted:Not in mechanics, but in attitude. Less maudlin, more two fisted action. And lo does the cycle begin anew. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Oh god I JUST finished that game but now I kind of want to get that DLC. Yeah, I played through of the game as though it were Commander Shepard and Ezio Auditore's Excellent Adventure. It's pretty great. Zellyn fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Dec 12, 2013 |
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Dec 12, 2013 01:27
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I would say Tidus is more the narrator and Yuna is the main character. Didn't they say they drew on Western media for some of their storytelling techniques in X? I remember the way Tidus narrated and the way that narration was framed up was singled out for that.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:30
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Cao Ni Ma posted:See, I dont really see it this way. To me Tidus didn't really had that much agency until the very end, where he tells everyone to go gently caress themselves when he learned what the pilgrimage actually entails. Then you could argue that the story has more weight from his side because around that time he also learns who Sin is and what effect saving Yuna will have on him. Actually he already knew who Sin was way before he found out about what the Final Summoning entailed. Hell, it was one of the first things Auron told him after they met up in Luca near the start of the game. It's one of the things people tend to remember fondly about the game. Here you have this enigmatic, older mentor figure, and he just drops this huge plot bomb on you right at the start of the journey instead of sitting on it until like 5 minutes before the final battle.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:33
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Not to mention it's a great bit of misdirection, because the real plot bomb doesn't show up until much later.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:36
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Auron is pretty awesome that way.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:36
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Well he sits on a ton of other stuff. Like being loving dead.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:38
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W.T. Fits posted:Actually he already knew who Sin was way before he found out about what the Final Summoning entailed. Hell, it was one of the first things Auron told him after they met up in Luca near the start of the game. It's one of the things people tend to remember fondly about the game. Here you have this enigmatic, older mentor figure, and he just drops this huge plot bomb on you right at the start of the journey instead of sitting on it until like 5 minutes before the final battle. He even explains why he does it! He's like "hey, yeah, uhhh...I kinda know the plot, so we're gonna just smooth over a few things so we can get to the end a bit faster." He's the smug rear end in a top hat whose read ahead in the script before everyone else.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:42
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BottledBodhisvata posted:He even explains why he does it! He's like "hey, yeah, uhhh...I kinda know the plot, so we're gonna just smooth over a few things so we can get to the end a bit faster." He's the smug rear end in a top hat whose read ahead in the script before everyone else. The best part of it is dat laugh.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:46
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Mustach posted:Well he sits on a ton of other stuff. Like being loving dead. Hey, a dude's living/dead status is his own business. Vitalist.
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Dec 12, 2013 01:47
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Mr. Maltose posted:Hey, a dude's living/dead status is his own business. Dude, trigger warning that poo poo I'm unsent.
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Dec 12, 2013 02:04
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I'm a lifestream apologist and I'm still offended. Thanks SHINRA!
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Dec 12, 2013 03:57
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BottledBodhisvata posted:He even explains why he does it! He's like "hey, yeah, uhhh...I kinda know the plot, so we're gonna just smooth over a few things so we can get to the end a bit faster." He's the smug rear end in a top hat whose read ahead in the script before everyone else. Its also great because he straight up tells you in that scene "I'm going to withhold information if I think it will impact Yuna's quest negatively" and then players act surprised when he holds out on you that he is the party's firebrand renegade who is dead set on stopping the cycle and has a half-thought plan to do so. Auron is the best and setting him up so he can solo Yunalesca is the best feeling. Can't kill what isn't sent.
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Dec 12, 2013 05:03
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