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Daisy doesn't have to be perfect, but for god's sake, it's just lovely writing to turn it into this. Don't forget, we have a lot of her backstory- she was a servant who was framed for Comstock's murder of his own wife. She was driven out and forced to be an outlaw, and the man who did it (AND who did the crime she was accused of) hailed himself as a hero, and his murder victim as a martyr. We have all this backstory and it's very interesting! Now the problem with 'well, we switched universes, so this is obviously a whole new Daisy and none of that applies to her so her being insane with bloodlust and power makes sense' is... that's really dumb. It's a waste of the effort they made into thinking up her backstory, recording voxophones, and putting them into the game. They created a character who was obviously meant to be understandable, if not entirely sympathetic, then threw all that out the window just so that they could add the "plot twist" that, oh no, she wasn't on your side, now shoot 50 guys with shotguns. They went from 'Sometimes there's precious need for people like Fitzroy' to 'Comstock and Fitzroy deserve each other' and 'The only difference between Fitzroy and Comstock is the name', with all the buildup between them being firmly on the side of the former, so it's jarring and strange. We went through an entire district of people who were starving to death, poor and miserable, basically Fink's slaves. We saw exactly how unhappy they were and how much they suffered. All through the game we've been seeing why Daisy Fitzroy is necessary, but now suddenly she's bad, and the only real explanation we have as to why she's bad is 'well, she killed Fink' (who was a miserable hideous person profiting off oppression) and 'she was going to harm a precious, innocent child!' which is... well, it falls flat and doesn't work. Honestly, it would have been a better twist and hit harder if Daisy were still sympathetic, but we still had to fight through her people just to get the hell out of there.
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Dec 16, 2013 01:13
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Captain Bravo posted:And, again, the universe-jumping only makes sense if it gives us evidence of the differences. Know what the difference in this universe was? Booker signs on with the Vox. He doesn't waste time with Elizabeth, he gets Slate to join, and the two go straight for Finkton. Daisy in this universe trusted Booker, and he trusted her. That does not sound like a much more bloodthirsty Daisy Fitzroy. Eh somebody who ends up essentially under the dual tutelage of Slate and Booker could probably learn to be bloodthirsty pretty darn fast. A Pinkerton and a blood and glory worshiping cavalryman put this revolution within inches of winning and it's safe to guess they did so ruthlessly. They could and probably should have directly tied Daisy(#C-1 or whatever)'s moral down fall to Booker's tutelage and Booker's distrust to knowing what he would have taught her to become.
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Dec 16, 2013 01:15
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Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm trying to defend Bioshock Infinite in the wake of this terrible idea, but even I don't buy the whole "this is a different Fitzroy" excuse. Even if it's true that we're looking at a completely new Fitzroy than the one we had received all the background to before, this new Fitzroy has no background at all, and would appear to be the only character whose motivations have done this 180. Think about it. Fink is the same person between dimensions. Comstock is the same person. Even Booker seems to be the same person. But Fitzroy does a 180 and becomes someone completely different? There's no evidence for it, and the impression seems to be that Fitzroy was a child-murdering psychopath from the beginning, which just doesn't fly. Ditto on the whole non-American imagery thing. Yes, I'm sure the writers did take inspiration from the 1917 and 1832 revolutions, but the whole crux of the game is America. Columbia is an exaggerated version of America, in racial terms, economic terms, architectural and cultural terms, everything. Even the Vox are shown as being of American origin, from the rhetoric Fitzroy uses to the horrific Stockyard-style conditions they live in. Even if the game wanted to take imagery from other worldwide revolutions for when the guns actually start firing (which is fine), they cannot expect that after umpteen hours of buildup, we would identify the Vox' actions through any lens other than an American one. If you want to change the context of your game, you have to actually change it, not assume people will take the interpretation that makes you out to look the least stupid. If the dimension-hopping had been established as violently shifting the characters of the main players in Columbia around, such that Comstock became an enlightened democrat or Fink a socialist, that would be one thing. If the game had given time to the notion of the Vox as a distinctly non-American movement, borne from the Russian Revolutionary tradition, or some other hyperviolent societal upheaval, that would also be one thing. But the game did neither of those things. And it's unreasonable to expect people to take those viewpoints absent any evidence within the game itself. We must assume that the Vox are still intended to be representative of an extreme version of the American labor movement. Which is, I assume, why this move has pissed so many people off.
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Dec 16, 2013 01:39
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Captain Bravo posted:right now the game have given us no reason to doubt either Booker or Elizabeth as unreliable. I don't think it's spoilers at this point to say that if you don't at least have some doubts about Booker as a reliable POV you haven't been paying attention. I'll edit this out if people decide it is spoilers but I think we've seen enough. To be honest instead of just riling people up, I think Daisy is poorly handled as a character and the abrupt transition from Vox allies to enemies is a poorly disguised gameplay consideration. When I played the game as soon as I noticed the Vox had unique weapons and a variety of character models denoting weapon type and behavior I knew they were going to be enemies. It's about as subtle as a brick to the face if you're accustomed to FPS conventions. I don't think the game has committed a thoughtcrime against forward-thinking proletarian ideology. Revolution is not a dinner party. Slave uprisings in the American South and communist uprisings generally were sometimes incredibly violent and rarely or never discriminating in their targets. Not presenting the mass slaughter of the upper class in a sympathetic light is not evil. It's not the sort of thing that elicits sympathy, especially in Booker who is an interloper in this situation. A lot of the frothing in the last few pages seems to be founded on the assumption that if revolution is morally justified in the general case, then any specific revolution is morally justified a priori. You're writing revolutionaries a moral blank check and that is exactly the error that left American Socialism in a tailspin after the Internationale was seized by the Soviet terror-state. Then again, maybe it's a game about multiple realities and you should cut it some slack if Team Red is a little crazier than you'd prefer in some of its incarnations.
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Dec 16, 2013 02:59
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I don't think there's any question as to whether this specific revolution is morally justified. We've seen more than enough evidence to justify a hell of a lot. That doesn't mean that everything that transpires from the revolution is going to be sunshine and roses, of course, but if that was the game's point, then they botched it pretty badly with the Fitzroy turnaround.
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Dec 16, 2013 03:18
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DeusExMachinima posted:If this isn't your reading of Fitzroy from the start I don't know what to tell you. Ironically, the devs said that they took inspiration from revolutionary thought around the early 1900's when coming up with the Vox (amongst other things). Animal Farm was taken from the exact same time frame partly inspired by the WW1 Russian revolution... and the idea of "pulling it up from the roots" ain't exactly foreign to that school. If most of these posters can't separate that from their own personal social justice crusade then that's pretty amusing. Bioshock Infinite goes one further and says everyone's an rear end in a top hat no matter what, top or bottom. Daisy isn't just a dick leading foolish people out of one shitheap into another for her own gain, the people she leads are all a bunch of dicks too. Victimized populations who rise up behind manipulative elite sociopaths against other elite sociopaths aren't just misguided and acting against their own wellfare out of blindness and stupidity (wilful or otherwise), they're fathomlessly evil murderbeasts who were only being (barely) kept in check by the horrifying things done to them (Bioshock Infinite's 'Boxer' would've served his new overlords by smashing the skulls of innocent children underfoot while cackling; free, free at last from the tyranny of Farmer Jones and his skull-smashing prohibitory measures). Which retroactively justifies them. Which is (I don't feel it's unreasonable to say this) really, really creepy. I think it is disturbing to spend a substantial chunk of a game showing the hijinks of American Sky Nazis, then the next segment showing that they had a point. I still think this is not nuts, I swear to you on my word as a proven psychic. Arglebargle III posted:To be honest instead of just riling people up, I think Daisy is poorly handled as a character and the abrupt transition from Vox allies to enemies is a poorly disguised gameplay consideration. When I played the game as soon as I noticed the Vox had unique weapons and a variety of character models denoting weapon type and behavior I knew they were going to be enemies. It's about as subtle as a brick to the face if you're accustomed to FPS conventions.  stalinist with a Mao body-pillow ." I like having permission to dislike media without being considered a loony. *Mostly because (to stick with your example) it's holding up 'roided sky-island versions of the Antebellum South and a mass slave uprising and saying "these are morally equivalent and the slaves are no better than the masters who kept them under key to prevent this sort of thing." I find that a very worrisome and equivocating message to send (easily as simplistic and historically comforting as "rebels are always correct") especially because (as you said) the game handled the whole thing so far so clumsily, as a representative of a genre that handles these kind of things clumsily, coming with the message that it was going to be very clever indeed. Drakyn fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Dec 16, 2013 |
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Dec 16, 2013 03:25
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The game is clever on an entirely different level than the social commentary, but again can't talk about it because spoilers. I'm a little confused by the idea that showing the Vox violently murdering the overclass is the game pronouncing moral condemnation. That's what happens in revolutions. When you condone revolution you are condoning violent murder. The protagonists who never experienced the injustice in this society are not in a position to sympathize with the violent murderers and since mass murder is unpleasant their reaction to the destruction is not positive. The lines from Booker and Elizabeth that everyone is getting worked up about are about Daisy, remember, and I think we can attribute the weirdness and lack of authenticity to the game's failure to characterize Daisy. It could be that Daisy was originally written as a self-serving demagog in the vein of Marcus Antonius and that got cut somehow. They aren't talking about the Vox generally, but I guess their lines are being heard as if they were because Daisy is such a non-entity. I agree the game fumbles the story a bit here, but I don't agree that it's some kind of accidental neo-Confederate agitprop. Again, it boils down to an unsubtle story concession to the gameplay and... mrf... spoilers Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Dec 16, 2013 |
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Dec 16, 2013 04:22
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As I see it, the biggest problem is that Booker says Daisy's just as bad BEFORE we see the things that would make that obviously true. That's sloppy as hell. Oh, that, and the universe jumping muddling the timeline and character motivations. Daisy Fitzroy is the same person, essentially, but events have...escalated. Except we don't know how they've escalated, what brought Fitzroy from a fairly rational point to Child Killer. That's just bad writing, or rather, lack of writing. Plus, the game's been playing with fire talking about racist imagery, and at this point, it has got itself burned badly by it. And, of course, South Park style "both sides are equally bad" bothers me. On the other hand, Undertow looks like so much fun to use.
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Dec 16, 2013 04:37
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I know this is a bit peripheral to the Fitzroy conversation, but if anyone really thinks that the racism shown in Columbia is exaggerated, they might want to take a look at this website: The Jim Crow Museum of Ferris State University. It's a pretty depressing look, though. In particular this essay about why Dr David Pilgrim collects racist artifacts. Obviously if horrible naked racism upsets you, don't go to this site.
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Dec 16, 2013 04:43
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Spatula City posted:As I see it, the biggest problem is that Booker says Daisy's just as bad BEFORE we see the things that would make that obviously true. Okay but... do you think Booker's much of a moral authority?
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Dec 16, 2013 04:58
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We're also in a different universe, one in which Booker joined Slate and then later Fitzroy and the Vox. We don't know much about Elizabeth's portal powers, but we do know that there's some shaking about in time as well as space. She opened a portal to Paris and saw a theater playing Revenge of the Jedi which opened in, presumably, 1983 as a parallel to the "real" Return of the Jedi. So we may have come some months forward in the whole Vox revolution. In that time, we don't know how badly the war escalated in that time. Fitzroy saw Booker die in this reality. There's no telling what else might have happened to her as Comstock retaliated and did terrible things to her loved ones and allies. So Comstock might have pushed her into becoming the monster she was. Not that it excuses her actions, but it might explain it.
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Dec 16, 2013 05:03
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Arglebargle III posted:The game is clever on an entirely different level than the social commentary, but again can't talk about it because spoilers. So far we have no reason NOT to assume the game's portrayal of the Vox isn't a moral condemnation. The story structure for this bit is dead-simple to follow: Naive Young Waif hopes for a storybook revolution (using Les Miserables as an example for maximum dramatic irony), Cynical Ol' Bastard suspects otherwise, and then the Ugly Truth Is Revealed and the verdict is delivered: just as bad as the things we've spent the past few hours establishing beyond any sane doubt as horrible awful no-good rotten evil schlep. Arglebargle III posted:Okay but... do you think Booker's much of a moral authority? And what tars Daisy, tars the revolution implicitly. As the only person in it (at the moment) with a name and a face combined, Daisy is basically the revolution given a (shoddy) personality - her will is its will, her actions are its actions. The closest we've got so far to acknowledging that people in it exist that aren't her is an ominous allusion to a future attempt at whitewashing Booker's existence to minimize complications in the minds of.... some hypothetical un-named people out there that I guess might be on her side but disagree with her. When Daisy is a bloodthirsty badly-written psycho, all the Vox are bloodthirsty poorly-written psychos. When Daisy wants Booker dead, all the Vox want Booker dead. Maybe that will change later, but for now, the revolution is hers, for not better at all and for much worse. I don't know about neo-Confederate agitprop, but I do think the game made a terrible mistake in choosing to be lazy and safe. It picked up many of America's most horrible and shameful historical moments, moments that were so genuinely awful that they took a lot of doing to exaggerate, took a good long look at them, then decided what they needed was a "yes, everyone fighting that jerk is also a jerk" moral, because showing the grey on the sides without using highlighters wasn't good enough. When you equivocate the morality of a fictionalized revolt against the abuses of a fictionalized pinnacle of America's crimes, you end up half-excusing the historical terribleness of a real country to real people, intentionally or not. That would've been hard enough to handle well if it just had the golden mean baggage, but once you throw in the way the whole situation (like you said) is really obviously set up to allow you to FPS new mobs with your 360 noscopes so you can get the biggest cheevos in your friendzone's leaderblogs it just gets embarrassingly offensive. "Here's a tricky question: how does the morality of violent revolutions work when the ruling power is appallingly evil?" is not what was being asked in design here, it was "here's a tricky question: how can we make sure you get to shoot the minorities, as well as the racists?" Drakyn fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Dec 16, 2013 |
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Dec 16, 2013 05:52
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I really like the Charge plasmid. Whenever a shoot-y game gives me the option to use melee, regardless of if it is viable, I will absolutely play the assassin and just gut people. I don't care if I have to hide behind a corner and cut before they turn to the right, It is too fun to just barbarian crush somebody. Also, I like how you can apparently put on the right clothes, and you suddenly have 7 foot arms, charged with elextricity and with enoguh strength to cut open a Handyman like a can opener. Also, also, the Handymen remind me of DC comics Cyborg, specifically the one from Flashpoint. The last scene where his heart is ripped open is awesome, and I like the Handymen for looking like they do.
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Dec 16, 2013 06:08
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Does the equipment that boosts melee range in any way affect the Charge tonic?
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Dec 16, 2013 06:16
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Captain Bravo posted:Does the equipment that boosts melee range in any way affect the Charge tonic? Just going by the video, the Charge tonic seems to function similar to the off-rail jump (basically flies you over, no real "physics" happen), maybe even similar code, so if there is something which boosts that specifically, it might work. Otherwise I doubt it. I haven't played the game though so there's hope?
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Dec 16, 2013 06:41
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I weirdly agree with both Arglebargle and Drakyn on this one. I just don't feel, having not yet gone any further, that I know what it was the game was going for with Daisy's turnabout. Ah well. That's what the rest of the LP's for.
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Dec 16, 2013 07:52
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Iceclaw posted:
Hey uh, I'm probably too late to bring this up but that page is filled with indirect spoilers and names of chapters/levels we haven't gotten to yet so be careful if you go to read it, I guess. Or read this instead: that voxophone posted:Looks like I got a friend in town after all... Slate. He's fell in with these "Vox Populi." And for irregulars, I will say -- they are loaded for bear. Problem is, I got to help them with their drat revolution first...then we take Comstock House by storm. I do that, I get the girl. EDIT: In fact please remove that link and edit in my quote if you can. That page literally has images of the end game on it. Sundowner fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Dec 16, 2013 |
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Dec 16, 2013 11:55
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Once I got the Charge tonic I started playing as if I were a Mass Effect Vanguard. Charge, shotgun to the face, rinse and repeat. It only gets better when you get the upgrade that recharges your shield when you Charge someone.
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Dec 16, 2013 12:02
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Sundowner posted:Hey uh, I'm probably too late to bring this up but that page is filled with indirect spoilers and names of chapters/levels we haven't gotten to yet so be careful if you go to read it, I guess. Or read this instead:  Right, sorry.
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Dec 16, 2013 12:35
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Captain Bravo posted:In other news, wasn't Fink talking about Songbird? He mentions that the melding of man and machine was the girl's guardian, it might have been a reference to Big Daddies, but what if he was actually talking about his plan for Songbird? Elizabeth's guardian? I'm a little late responding to this, but yes, Fink was definitely talking about Songbird in that voxophone. The giveaway is the chalkboard with the diagram of Songbird drawn on it right next to where the voxophone is.
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Dec 16, 2013 20:08
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay but... do you think Booker's much of a moral authority? No, that's not the point, the point is that it doesn't make much sense for him to say that before we've seen much of this universe's Vox doing much of anything. obviously Booker is no sort of moral authority, but his comment comes out of nowhere.
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Dec 16, 2013 21:27
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It comes out of his own experiences in which he witnessed amoral brutality on both sides of conflicts. Especially his time with the Pinkertons. Booker's opinions come out of Booker.
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Dec 17, 2013 04:14
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 Clearing their way through more aggressive Vox, Booker and Elizabeth come upon a place known as Emporia where they share a little downtime and look around for more information. Hey everyone, happy new year. Hope the last couple of weeks have been swell for you. I know I was a little too busy drinking and eating to work on the LP.  Anyway, this update features pretty much my favorite combat arena in the game and it's not even the most visually impressive like what we've seen. Also I finally start to tinker with overpowered vigor and gear combinations now that we're pretty much fully decked out.
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Jan 4, 2014 23:29
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I like Booker's attitude to Elizabeth asking him about the Luteces early in the video. He's so tired of all this weird poo poo he can't even get around to being curious.
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Jan 5, 2014 01:34
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I don't mind you playing the Voxaphones as you go but subtitles would be appreciated.
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Jan 5, 2014 01:40
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CHiRAL posted:I don't mind you playing the Voxaphones as you go but subtitles would be appreciated. The text of them is right there while they're being read out. Do you watch in a small Youtube window? I can read it fine on mine, but I watch videos at a large size.
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Jan 5, 2014 01:45
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HopperUK posted:The text of them is right there while they're being read out. Do you watch in a small Youtube window? I can read it fine on mine, but I watch videos at a large size. The ones that are being played during the gameplay instead of in the menu.
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Jan 5, 2014 01:51
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Robust Laser posted:The ones that are being played during the gameplay instead of in the menu. Of course, sorry. Brainfart. I agree about those ones, I think I like them better through the menu. They don't last long enough that it's disruptive to the flow of the video or anything. e: Sundowner, did you call the pub the 'Blue Oyster' on purpose near the end there? 
HopperUK fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Jan 5, 2014 |
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Jan 5, 2014 01:54
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HopperUK posted:Sundowner, did you call the pub the 'Blue Oyster' on purpose near the end there? I'm almost positive he must have.
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Jan 5, 2014 03:06
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Oh wow, I really wish I did mean it now but that was just me being stupid and seeing the blue logo and the word Oyster. I actually kept saying Blue Oyster when recording the commentary. I thought I fixed them all.  Fake edit: Let's just go with yes. 
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Jan 5, 2014 03:13
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Request: Can you show us the insanity that is fully upgraded Charge + Burning Halo + Brittle Skin? Also; I just noticed that the bandage disappears from Booker's hand while he's doing the animations for getting a new Vigor.
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Jan 5, 2014 04:30
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Sundowner posted:Oh wow, I really wish I did mean it now but that was just me being stupid and seeing the blue logo and the word Oyster. I actually kept saying Blue Oyster when recording the commentary. I thought I fixed them all. Bioshock needs more cowbell.
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Jan 5, 2014 06:31
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oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...
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Jan 5, 2014 08:46
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I really enjoyed the Bioshock callback with the burst pipe. And yeah, count me in for subtitles as well. One more thing: Quit being a tease with the sniper rifles!
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Jan 5, 2014 11:44
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 We got yer lives, we got yer wives!I figure the Luteces found some quantum interspace or something, and are using it to mess with everything. Although they don't seem very human (or, at the very least, sane) to me, so they might actually be some weird echoes of the actual Luteces. Or, judging by the coinflip counting board, they've watched so many different iterations of the same story that they're bored as gently caress and don't see the participants as people capable of making their own choices. Reminds me a bit of how some people talk about finances in front of their kids. GenHavoc posted:Hang on, wouldn't a quantum particle suspended in spacetime be unable to keep pace with the orbit of the earth around the sun, or the solar system around the galaxy? Even if not, how would you be able to make a building supported by such a thing fly around, as opposed to just hovering? Yes, I know we're supposed to handwave the flying Quantum City away, but if they're going to provide an explanation, they could at least provide one that makes sense. There is no default zero speed of the universe, so eh, weirder poo poo actually happens. Ever since I heard that photon molecules are a thing that exists, my tolerance for weird Sci-Fi bullshit increased.
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Jan 5, 2014 12:10
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Aw. I hope you get to try out Return To Sender a little more before the end. No, it's not really as useful as the others, but still, the visual spectacle of gathering all the bullets shot at you into a big floating ball that you then release with explosive fury is still kinda cool.GenHavoc posted:[*]I have to confess, it's been long enough that I no longer remember Preston's background, nor who this "kid" he refers to is. Can someone refresh me? Preston was the guy Comstock hired to take care of Daisy Fitzroy at the beginning; we saw Prestons wagon before visiting the Order of the Raven. He was the guy who killed two Vox who tried to ambush him on the Boardwalk, and then the next time we meet him, he had set bear traps to take care of the Vox, but he caught a little Native boy who he felt guilty about crippling for some reason. There are more than a few plot holes with this idea (the most egregious of which is that Preston says that he was sent to the hall of heroes to scalp "the False Shepard," aka Booker, but he was never sent after Booker, only Fitzroy), but that's who preston is.
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Jan 5, 2014 13:11
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resurgam40 posted:Preston was the guy Comstock hired to take care of Daisy Fitzroy at the beginning; we saw Prestons wagon before visiting the Order of the Raven. He was the guy who killed two Vox who tried to ambush him on the Boardwalk, and then the next time we meet him, he had set bear traps to take care of the Vox, but he caught a little Native boy who he felt guilty about crippling for some reason. There are more than a few plot holes with this idea (the most egregious of which is that Preston says that he was sent to the hall of heroes to scalp "the False Shepard," aka Booker, but he was never sent after Booker, only Fitzroy), but that's who preston is. Maybe after failing to hunt down Daisy Fitzroy he was reassigned to hunt down Booker in this reality? Although, this reality's Booker is supposed to be dead, so I guess he survived the meeting with Preston (obviously, as Booker's knowledge of Sioux allowed Preston to communicate more clearly with the injured child he had taken as his charge) but then died somehow afterwards? Many, I never thought alternative universes could be this complicated and confusing!
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Jan 5, 2014 13:50
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I have a feeling that the Lutece twins are actually the same person from different dimensions, but one is male and one is female. I hope it was not too obvious 
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Jan 5, 2014 14:44
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Yeah, Robert is Rosalind, I think, but in a different universe where he was 1) born male instead and 2) still a really similar person in every way. What struck me is that she said that Robert was haeomorrhaging when he was brought to a different universe than his own. Didn't Booker get a very sudden nosebleed back when Comstock was addressing him through the big statue thing, early on? And there was that flicker with the Lutece statue. I wonder if Booker's been shifting universes since before we knew it was possible.
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Jan 5, 2014 15:09
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Past Rosalind Lutece seems a bit strangely obsessed with her counterpart, whereas the current one just seems to be part of her "twin", what this how they complete each other's sentences and seem generally like the exact same person twice. It's really very fascinating to consider.
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Jan 5, 2014 15:44
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