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Because he went from an ancient 4WD truck to a very modern electric car. That truck is rated at 18MPG, and if there's anywhere it's going to perform worse (due to extended cold / open-loop operation), it's going to be Alaska. The Leaf is going to use about 1/5 of the amount of actual energy to drive the same distance as the B2600i. Given that AH also mentioned getting a special rate on his electricity, he's probably also paying about half the rate per kWh for electricity as he does for gasoline. Electricity can get damned cheap when you buy it off-peak, whereas gasoline is going to cost you roughly around 9 - 13 cents per kWh no matter when or where you buy it.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:13
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Thank you, IoC, for this elucidation. I was working on ferreting out the "Well, I get a discount" bit which is often sorely missing from these statements. Hell, power is almost free in some third world latin american countries, for an example. Why aren't they at least 80% EV by now?  I did 250 miles this last week, and spent almost $25 in gas. For the high octane. 5 years ago, I would have spent about $8.50. 
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Dec 18, 2013 21:16
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It's not like those numbers are absolute garbage, though. When I was working on whether or not a Leaf would be a suitable replacement for my Ranger, I'd go from ~240 a month in fuel and maintenance costs to ~280 a month in lease and electrical costs (about $40 of that being electricity). Yes, the Leaf is boring and arguably hideous, but I can't think of a nicer car I'd want jump into for a net increase of $40 a month. And before you say I'm ignoring maintenance on the Leaf, the only maintenance expected in the first year that wouldn't be a warrantied repair, would possibly be a set of tires (which was equally not figured into the Ranger since I hadn't bought tires for it at the time either).
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Dec 18, 2013 21:24
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Long term, there are the batteries, there are the social ramifications of needing to charge for X hours at a time.. the fact that if the grid goes down, you are officially hosed (which is still incredibly common in remote or rural areas like, oh, say, Alaska), etc, etc, etc.. On a purely financial metric, it doesn't look bad. For real life..
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Dec 18, 2013 21:35
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It's not like the math is some hard number to figure out. According to my in-dash efficiency meter, I'm getting 4.4 miles per kWh. I'm just about to hit 7500 miles on my Leaf, so that's about 1705 kWh used. I pay $.10 per kWh, no peak/off peak difference. I've paid $170.50 in electricity since May 12, 2013 for my car. At the station I used to fill up at, gas is currently $3.17 a gallon. My old car averages 30 - 35 mpg. I'll use the higher value for fun. That's 215 gallons at 3.17 a gallon for $681.55 at today's rate. Net savings of $511.05 Edit: Oh, I see. Well, if you want to be down on EVs, that's you're choice I guess. None of those things have really been an issue in practice. Have fun.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:38
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West SAAB Story posted:On a purely financial metric, it doesn't look bad. It's the only metric that is going to sell EVs that are not Teslas. Teslas sell because by most accounts the Model S is an amazing car, and the customers that can afford them don't necessarily care all that much about the cost of ownership compared to the majority of the market.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:41
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West SAAB Story posted:Long term, there are the batteries, there are the social ramifications of needing to charge for X hours at a time.. the fact that if the grid goes down, you are officially hosed (which is still incredibly common in remote or rural areas like, oh, say, Alaska), etc, etc, etc.. Advent Horizon is in Juneau which is a huge city, and not like, you know, what everybody thinks of when they hear Alaska. I've seen a lot of Leafs here in Seattle and I'm surprised I don't see that many Volts. I think people are affluent enough here to have the Leaf as a second car or just don't do any roadtrips to where they'd like a longer range vehicle. IOwnCalculus posted:It's the only metric that is going to sell EVs that are not Teslas. Teslas sell because by most accounts the Model S is an amazing car, and the customers that can afford them don't necessarily care all that much about the cost of ownership compared to the majority of the market. edit: My friend says that the interior quality of the Tesla is not that great (panel gaps, button getting stuck on the showroom model, etc). Any thoughts on that? I haven't looked for myself besides a pre-production version which was pretty bad, but that was months before production started.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:42
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I bought my leaf because it was going to be cheaper then alternatives or own and operate. I could care less that it is electric. Why would anyone buy a driving appliance for any other reason? I guess a miata gets you lots of male on male love but besides that cost is the most important consideration.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:53
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IOwnCalculus posted:It's the only metric that is going to sell EVs that are not Teslas. I'd love to see what these numbers look like when rebates, bonuses, and other gimmicks are no longer available. Hell, the latest gov't rebate on the Volt is more than I've paid for my last 2 cars combined. It is NOT a better alternative (at this time) in my mind, since this power still has to come from somewhere - and it is not just magically appearing. This seems to be the silent 'not my problem, I bought green  ' bit of the debate in EVs where I just stop listening and just tune out.CharlesM posted:Advent Horizon is in Juneau which is a huge city, and not like, you know, what everybody thinks of when they hear Alaska. The weather is still going to be pretty lovely some of the year - and I have no idea about his power grid reliability, but here in the midwest of the lower 48s, you will have at least 1/100th disruption per year on average - that is about 3 days and change. If you don't have power, heat, or a working car, you tend to get sort of hosed. Again, for a hyoog city, this is likely not all that problematic, since we survived the SFBA rolling blackouts of the late 90s.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:55
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CharlesM posted:edit: My friend says that the interior quality of the Tesla is not that great (panel gaps, button getting stuck on the showroom model, etc). Any thoughts on that? I haven't looked for myself besides a pre-production version which was pretty bad, but that was months before production started. No clue, I've never been closer to a Tesla than watching them drive around; for me it's pretty much just going off of press reviews, and the mainstream press seems to love it.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:08
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West SAAB Story posted:bit of the debate in EVs where I just stop listening and just tune out.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:11
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roomforthetuna posted:So you're saying there's no point in answering your question (well, responding to your statement). Good to know. Placing your head in the sand and shouting louder than I am is truly beneficial. Thank you for supporting my statement.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:27
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roomforthetuna posted:So you're saying there's no point in answering your question (well, responding to your statement). Good to know. He's always been like that. He doesn't have any questions, just objections to the EV1.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:41
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1. My electricity is 100% hydro. Captain Planet can rest easy. 2. We had at least 6 power outages in the last week and I still managed to get the car charged. I also still have the truck if the power situation gets bad enough, but at that point I doubt my office would even be open. 3. I pay half-price for electricity from 10pm to 7am. Demand metering is nothing special to many people. Even if I were paying $35 a month in energy I'd still be coming out ahead. 4. Yes, the heater sucks energy. I also have to run the defroster nearly constantly year-round because it is goddamn moist around here. I still get around just fine. Edit: And gas here is still nearly $4/gallon. poo poo's expensive to import without a road. Advent Horizon fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 22:42
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Let's say you did have an EV and the grid went down, but you've got a consumer-level portable gas generator. Would it still be less expensive overall to run the generator to charge your EV than it would be to drive a gas vehicle?
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Dec 18, 2013 22:51
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The Midniter posted:Let's say you did have an EV and the grid went down, but you've got a consumer-level portable gas generator. Would it still be less expensive overall to run the generator to charge your EV than it would be to drive a gas vehicle? No, Unless your car had 5 hemi 440s and your generator was running some super efficient gas engine to power an electric bicycle.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:55
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The Midniter posted:Let's say you did have an EV and the grid went down, but you've got a consumer-level portable gas generator. Would it still be less expensive overall to run the generator to charge your EV than it would be to drive a gas vehicle?
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Dec 18, 2013 22:57
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You may also want to take into account whether the generator is running to power anything else. If you have a generator hookup on your house it's likely you'd have enough spare capacity most of the time to plug an EV into a 120V outlet. Could be useful when you need to have the generator running for some minor load.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:00
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duz posted:He's always been like that. He doesn't have any questions, just objections to the EV1. Actually, I was hoping for some real metrics, other than "Today, it costs me..(due to factors playing towards its favor)." I'd like some real world figures on this, and yes, I poo-poo on EV on occasion, just because I think people are blindly chewing at the bit. Advent Horizon posted:You may also want to take into account whether the generator is running to power anything else. If you have a generator hookup on your house it's likely you'd have enough spare capacity most of the time to plug an EV into a 120V outlet. Could be useful when you need to have the generator running for some minor load. Does your generator offer a discount for adding your house to the equation? (Fwiw, I'm paying about $0.12/kwh. Shitsux.) Suqit posted:I don't know why you give a poo poo if someone wants to buy an electric car unless they yell at you for using gas, which nobody in here really does. Not yet. Viggen fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 23:01
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West SAAB Story posted:I'd love to see what these numbers look like when rebates, bonuses, and other gimmicks are no longer available. Hell, the latest gov't rebate on the Volt is more than I've paid for my last 2 cars combined. It is NOT a better alternative (at this time) in my mind, since this power still has to come from somewhere - and it is not just magically appearing. This seems to be the silent 'not my problem, I bought green That all depends on where you live and how you get your electricity. Here are some numbers. Of course the technology will get better over time, and early adopters help that curve get started. I don't know why you give a poo poo if someone wants to buy an electric car unless they yell at you for using gas, which nobody in here really does. 
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Dec 18, 2013 23:08
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West SAAB Story posted:...I have no idea about his power grid reliability, but here in the midwest of the lower 48s, you will have at least 1/100th disruption per year on average - that is about 3 days and change... What the gently caress kind of lovely third world grid does your local utility run that you are getting that sort of power disruption? Holy poo poo. I've been in my current house for 8.5 years. I've had one power outage that lasted most of a day (nasty storm took out about 2 miles of old wood transmission line poles - all of which were replaced that day with steel poles so they won't go down again), 2 outages that lasted maybe an hour (also both storm related), and other than that maybe enough of a flicker to reset the clock on the stove 3 or 4 times. Sounds like you need to be bitching at your local utility commission, or you live in tornado alley and get lots of downed lines on a regular basis.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:20
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West SAAB Story posted:Actually, I was hoping for some real metrics, other than "Today, it costs me..(due to factors playing towards its favor)." I'd like some real world figures on this, and yes, I poo-poo on EV on occasion, just because I think people are blindly chewing at the bit. What metrics? I posted my numbers with specifics, fudging the gas-numbers toward the pro-gas side (my car doesn't always get 35mpg, gas obviously isn't always 3.17), and I'm hitting pretty heavy savings. The cost of my lease is 22$ more than the monthly cost of my previous car when I was paying for it, so I feel those numbers come out to a wash. Were I not to have gotten the Leaf, I'd have needed another reliable car immediately, and the Leaf is 16$ (give or take, since I didn't negotiate much and didn't sign papers I don't know what the final numbers were) less than the other gas-based car I was looking at instead monthly. I'd have had a monthly payment anyway, but in this way I'm saving a bit under $100 a month in gas. As for social charging, I'll one up and say that last week I didn't get home until late on Wednesday, left for work Thursday without my car at the 80% charge, got a call that my girlfriend was going to the ER, had to drive an additional 8 miles beyond my normal commute home and then 5 miles from there to my house and I still was okay. I came in on a single bar with 8 miles left on the meter, but had I needed to have gone farther, I could have gone home to picked up my old ICE or called a cab like people who don't even own cars do in large cities when they need to get around. Your argument makes some big assumptions to begin with on that score. End result - possible to get around when not convenient to do so. If it's not, the world doesn't end, no more than it does for anyone else who has a car break down in an emergency/social situations. I'd still be interested in knowing what specifics, but ultimately it's moot. You're here to stir the pot, not have a conversation.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:24
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The Locator posted:What the gently caress kind of lovely third world grid does your local utility run that you are getting that sort of power disruption? Holy poo poo. Rural North-west America. I'm less than an hour from a largish city, but I am still over 30 miles out, and bordering two states - neither of which gives a crap. Most folks out here have their phone service from yet ANOTHER state which borders on the other side. v vThe Locator posted:Sounds like you need to be bitching at your local utility commission, or you live in tornado alley and get lots of downed lines on a regular basis. We have both above, and underground power. Whenever we get over a foot of snow, poo poo tends to stop working. We've had the roads plowed twice already this year, which is a feat unto itself. No tornadoes, and the last few earthquakes didn't interrupt much but a bit of sleep. It still isn't horribly viable for an EV here, where I, and a good portion of Americans live. A (former) coworker ended up with a Volt, and as Chevys' site shows by CURRENT data,it gets about 38-40 on a full charge. Best case. A good portion of America is farther away than an 18 mile commute, and we can't sit plugged in for a whole day for that - and to pray there is enough juice for the return. Plus, in my case, the electric is still pretty drat high at $0.12/kwh off peak (also used in Chevys' current Volt metrics). Mortanis posted:I'd still be interested in knowing what specifics, but ultimately it's moot. You're here to stir the pot, not have a conversation. You've made this statement several times now. I really have noting to retort other than I'm glad you were able to make it 13 miles out of your normal commute without having to deliver the child yourself.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:32
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West SAAB Story posted:Rural North-west America. I'm less than an hour from a largish city, but I am still over 30 miles out, and bordering two states - neither of which gives a crap. Most folks out here have their phone service from yet ANOTHER state which borders on the other side. v So it won't work for you nobody gives a gently caress. It works for plenty of people. Don't buy one.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:37
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Suqit posted:So it won't work for you nobody gives a gently caress. It works for plenty of people. Don't buy one. Thank you for your attention to my own plight and point of futility regarding the current EV market ouside of frivolous cities with glamorous people, sir. 
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Dec 19, 2013 00:45
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West SAAB Story posted:Thank you for your attention to my own plight and point of futility regarding the current EV market ouside of frivolous cities with glamorous people, sir. Why not argue that cars are futile because some people need to move big heavy objects and that requires a truck?
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Dec 19, 2013 01:19
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West SAAB Story posted:The weather is still going to be pretty lovely some of the year - and I have no idea about his power grid reliability, but here in the midwest of the lower 48s, you will have at least 1/100th disruption per year on average - that is about 3 days and change. If you don't have power, heat, or a working car, you tend to get sort of hosed. Again, for a hyoog city, this is likely not all that problematic, since we survived the SFBA rolling blackouts of the late 90s. In five years I have had one three hour power outage, your power company sucks.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:45
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ijustam posted:How do you measure the electricity drawn by the charger? Do you have a meter for that outlet or something? Buy a Kill-a-Watt or something.
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Dec 19, 2013 02:52
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Godholio posted:Buy a Kill-a-Watt or something. Do they make basic Kill-a-Watts for the high-amperage sockets?
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Dec 19, 2013 03:04
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What is it with electric cars that makes people write them off, and then tell others that express interested in them that they can't work? It's a thing I notice specifically with electric cars, mostly Tesla because it gets all the attention lately. Cars own, electric cars own and nice performing electric cars own. Take all the performance of a Tesla without mentioning it's electric and it's universally liked. Mention it's an electric then there is a group of people that start poking into it like it's a fantasy or that it can't work or that if more than 5 people have one they country's electrical grid goes down. I'm not  enough to think it's some sort of conspiracy but the way some people talk about EVs is like climate change deniers, they've got a hard wall that's just coated in some bias that they themselves claim they don't have and I can't understand it. Where is the anti-electric car thing even rooted?
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Dec 19, 2013 03:16
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West SAAB Story posted:Thank you for your attention to my own plight and point of futility regarding the current EV market ouside of frivolous cities with glamorous people, sir. Dude your entire forums identity is tied up in your devotion to a perennially oddball auto manufacturer currently in a deep coma, and the best case scenario is that they'll be the twisted zombie of Chinese overlords for a few years and then finally die a horrible gruesome death. Don't poo poo on people buying EVs. That's like a furry balls deep in an SPH talking about how lame anime is.
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Dec 19, 2013 03:36
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You don't need a kill-a-watt; you can use just about and any power meter that has kWh logging; there are a zillion out there.Advent Horizon posted:1. My electricity is 100% hydro. Captain Planet can rest easy. So no matter where you think your electricity is coming from, your use of more electricity equates directly into more coal or natural gas being burned.
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Dec 19, 2013 03:57
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Grover makes a good point, and it begs an interesting question (this may or may not be the best place to discuss) -- is gasoline overpriced or is electricity underpriced? At 10 cents a kwh, the 40 miles avg (12 kwh) of electric range my Volt provides costs me 1/3 as much as the 40 mpg avg gas generator that is onboard.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:16
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Goober Peas posted:Grover makes a good point, and it begs an interesting question (this may or may not be the best place to discuss) -- is gasoline overpriced or is electricity underpriced? At 10 cents a kwh, the 40 miles avg (12 kwh) of electric range my Volt provides costs me 1/3 as much as the 40 mpg avg gas generator that is onboard. Electric companies aren't taking in the largest profits in the history of the world.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:21
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KakerMix posted:What is it with electric cars that makes people write them off, and then tell others that express interested in them that they can't work? It's a thing I notice specifically with electric cars, mostly Tesla because it gets all the attention lately. Cars own, electric cars own and nice performing electric cars own. Take all the performance of a Tesla without mentioning it's electric and it's universally liked. Mention it's an electric then there is a group of people that start poking into it like it's a fantasy or that it can't work or that if more than 5 people have one they country's electrical grid goes down. Probably because whenever they've come up in the past 30+ years it's been either wide-eyed evangelists or straight hucksters who are selling them as reported by a mostly credulous media. People hyping up electric cars are, for the most part, trying to sell you something. They're going to get pushback and skepticism just like every other company trying to sell you something claiming they have the next big thing that will revolutionize society. Also there's a (mostly separate) group of people out there who don't really have a solid grasp on the basic issues regarding electric cars and make silly pronouncements like "everyone should switch to electric cars, let's start banning gas" or "electric cars are going to put car companies out of business maybe there's a conspiracy going on". You're probably going to see some pre-emptive strikes against these people, especially when they start trying to advocate for bad policies. It's only quite recently that practical electric cars have even come out, and even now they're pretty niche, and many are ridiculously expensive and based on some pretty shady financing and business setups.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:29
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Goober Peas posted:Grover makes a good point, and it begs an interesting question (this may or may not be the best place to discuss) -- is gasoline overpriced or is electricity underpriced? At 10 cents a kwh, the 40 miles avg (12 kwh) of electric range my Volt provides costs me 1/3 as much as the 40 mpg avg gas generator that is onboard. Well, first of all, not all of that electrical power measured at the wall is actually stored in the battery: you're going to lose a decent chunk to the charging process (heat, etc.), losses during storage, etc. And of course electric power is a whole other thing because it pretty much can't be stored with any sort of real efficiency. Also gas itself is a perishable good that has to be processed then trucked around in tankers, stored, and then sold by stations that have their own labor and equipment costs. Also it's inherently more energy dense when stored in a tank vs. batteries, though less efficient (depending on where/how you measure efficiency). It's pretty possible that neither is actually under or over priced considering how different the two are.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:36
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Goober Peas posted:Grover makes a good point, and it begs an interesting question (this may or may not be the best place to discuss) -- is gasoline overpriced or is electricity underpriced? At 10 cents a kwh, the 40 miles avg (12 kwh) of electric range my Volt provides costs me 1/3 as much as the 40 mpg avg gas generator that is onboard. e:fb edit: also, supply and demand of the raw materials. If you had a coal powered generator and a gasoline powered generator, I'm pretty sure you could run the coal generator more cheaply. As evidence I present the virtual nonexistence of gasoline-fired power stations. vvvv A cruel economical efficiency. But probably carbon too, if you take into account trucks burning oil-products to deliver oil-products etc. Hell, most likely all of the criteria. roomforthetuna fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 04:37
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roomforthetuna posted:A coal power station, despite the lossiness of multiple conversions, is still a fuckton more efficient than a small internal combustion engine, especially when you take into account distribution costs and poo poo like that. (eg. Gas having to be tankered to tens of thousands of gas stations, coal only having to go to a very few destinations comparatively, and assuming all the power lines are already in place.) Efficient in what sense? Thermodynamic from inputs? Total carbon? Harmful pollutants/radiation released? Ecological impact? Human misery created during production?
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Dec 19, 2013 04:38
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West SAAB Story posted:A (former) coworker ended up with a Volt, and as Chevys' site shows by CURRENT data,it gets about 38-40 on a full charge. Best case. Mine gets 42-48, depending on traffic. Heavier traffic results in better electric range; Electric range plummets over 55mph. Not living in a frigid wasteland helps, as well. I have a 44mi round trip and make it on 100% electric about two thirds of the time. The other third, I use less than a tenth of a gallon per commute day. Plus, when you do run out of charge, you... Drive the rest of the way home. A (very) rough calculation shows that my Volt costs me ~$200 more per month than my paid-off 2006 GTO was costing, and the majority of the cost is going towards the payment, rather than into the fuel tank, like it would have with a regular gas car. I certainly won't get that back in investment terms, but vehicles depreciate a lot slower than combusted gasoline. I probably could have gotten a lower overall cost of ownership with a Corolla or Elantra, but the Volt is honestly a nicer, better optioned car. And it satisfies my desire for something that ISNT a godamned Corolla.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:40
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grover posted:That's great and all, but electricity is a fungible commodity, and hydroelectric is at maximum capacity; your using xx.xxx kW-h of hydro power means that someone else that would have used hydro, or wind or solar or nuclear or any of the other maxed-capacity sources ends up being provided by coal or natural gas. Why does everybody always have to try to piss in other people's Cheerios? No, I am not displacing anybody to coal or natural gas. Our 100% hydro generation is not connected to the national grid(s) and we even have enough excess water available that there is talk of building more plants and connecting our grid to sell the hydropower outside (to Canada, mostly). So shut the goddamn hell up. That's also besides the fact that, nationally, the majority of new capacity this year was renewable. You also completely missed where I pointed out that I'm using less electricity now than a year ago because the car takes less energy than our incandescent lights did, thus displacing my own new consumption.
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Dec 19, 2013 09:08
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