|
So I'm reading through The Truthful History of the Conquest of the New Spain and while it is fascinating, does anyone else have good books about the conquest of the New World? Bernal Diaz del Castillo isn't exactly the most reliable source, and my edition has literal wood and leather covers so it weighs a goddamn ton.
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 17:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 17:59 |
|
|
a travelling HEGEL posted:
Yep, I managed to get up (somewhat) early and joined to first tour. Its an partially-ruined, underground fortress, so what's not to like? And the tour guide was quite informative too. I especially liked the story that they realized just after building the fortress that their high-rise armory was looking over the wall ready to be shot at. Cue total rebuilding... Did you ever visit the art gallery in the Zwinger? If so, you may already know this painting by Cranach (Der schlafende Herkules und die Pygmäen):  Tell us about 16th century dwarven armies  I wonder how much of the armour and equipment is the painters fantasy and how much is authentic for the time.
gipskrampf fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Dec 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 19:25
|
|
|
gipskrampf posted:I especially liked the story that they realized just after building the fortress that their high-rise armory was looking over the wall ready to be shot at. Cue total rebuilding... gipskrampf posted:Did you ever visit the art gallery in the Zwinger? If so, you may already know this painting by Cranach (Der schlafende Herkules und die Pygmäen):  , the helmet that looks like  , and the helmet that looks like a funnel on his head. Those look a little funky (in fact, the funnel reminds me of Bosch, which makes me think that its use here is symbolic), but I would not actually be surprised if someone, somewhere, made something like that for parade use. The weapons look fine: I see pikes, partisans, halberds, matchlocks, a war axe, and an OK sword. These are all realistic. Even the flail looks like a real flail, not a fantasy weapon, even if its use as a weapon was limited in real life. I've...never been in the art gallery in the Zwinger, only the Ruestkammer and the Grünes Gewölbe... 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Dec 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 20:14
|
|
|
Davincie posted:How did you guys like Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter? I've been meaning to watch it and I suppose a bunch of war nerds would be the best judge on a German series about WW2 I've seen the series 2 times now. Actually, I wanted to write my MT about the reaction in our media here. It was supposed to cause an uproar similar to the Wehrmachtsausstellung, but nothing ever happened. Even the most reactionary newspapers agreed that it was well executed and well researched. Kinda disappointing. There are so many things to be said about the war in the east and the series picked a few centerpieces that are relevant to the culture of rememberance in Germany and Austria. Presenting the issues in such a fashion was unthinkable 15 years ago and it's no accident that I related it to the Wehrmachtsausstellung as this is the most recent pivotal point that changed alot in the way how people are now (or better "were", as there are few left) able to tell their stories. It is hard to understand for somebody that didn't grow up with this culture of silence that only allowed the recounting of what they've seen and been through in the war within a very tight framework. It is about the stories that descend to you from your grandparents and other relatives. Often there's these cleavages between perpetrators and victims that run right through families. It's not something that is uncommon. It might be interesting to see if there's any deeper confrontation about the antisemitism that was rampant at that time in Poland, but that's something that the Poles will have to deal with. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Dec 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 20:23
|
|
|
Tevery Best posted:I didn't see it, but half of Poland completely lost their poo poo when this series was shown on national TV. Even the fact that it had actual historians commenting on it before and after the episodes didn't really help. From what I've read, there was quite a bit of reason to it, though, and it appears kinda revisionist. But that's just a second hand opinion, mind you. Yeah for anyone who hasn't seen it, it portrayed a group of AK partisans as heavily anti-semitic, with one member making a remark about how they drown jews like kittens, and a scene where they ambush a German train which they thought would contain weapons but instead was filled with captured jews, and willing to just apathethically abandon them inside the train carts without attempting to free them. And with them is one of the main characters, who is an escaped German jew hiding his jewish identity from most of the goup. The controversial bits are up on youtube, unfortunately solely in polish speech and subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5jEGrSat20 How plausible the anti-semitism of the AK is in this series though i know to little of, better leave that to some of the experts in here.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 20:31
|
|
|
gipskrampf posted:Did you ever visit the art gallery in the Zwinger? If so, you may already know this painting by Cranach (Der schlafende Herkules und die Pygmäen): I tried to find something about the symbolism of the painting - looks like Hercules is no other than Moritz von Sachsen (see http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/artdok/1545/1/Mueller_Moritz_von_Sachsen_als_Hercules_germanicus_2009.pdf)  (Compare the beards.) I guess painting your elector as a demigod unfazed by the attack of bloodthirsty dwarves is good for business.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 21:03
|
|
|
Falukorv posted:How plausible the anti-semitism of the AK is in this series though i know to little of, better leave that to some of the experts in here. Anti-semitism was fairly strong in the years before WW2, and I have heard some stories of Polish and other Jews being afraid of some of the Polish underground for that very reason. I do not think the AK officially sanctioned such activity, but I am certain that some bands probably had political leanings in line with the right-wing Polish nationalists that became increasingly powerful in Polish politics.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 21:31
|
|
|
First of all, calling partisan units "bands" is kinda loaded because that's the exact same term Nazis used. Second of all, crazy anti-semites had their own organisations, comparatively tiny, because they didn't want to be associated with the AK, who had instituted a Council for Helping the Jews.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 21:52
|
|
|
"Bands" are not the same as "bandits". It's just a term to describe a group, without implying the same level of organisation and hierarchical interaction that "unit" does.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 22:37
|
|
|
Yeah I was about to say, that doesn't really strike me as being a very loaded term in the English language. e: VVV I'd rather have the Sheriff's deep house and glitch TYVM Koesj fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Dec 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 23:50
|
|
|
Koesj posted:Yeah I was about to say, that doesn't really strike me as being a very loaded term in the English language. Robin Hood had a band. You should have heard their techno-funk version of Greensleeves.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 00:04
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:Robin Hood had a band.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 00:34
|
|
|
Panzeh posted:Anti-semitism was fairly strong in the years before WW2, and I have heard some stories of Polish and other Jews being afraid of some of the Polish underground for that very reason. I do not think the AK officially sanctioned such activity, but I am certain that some bands probably had political leanings in line with the right-wing Polish nationalists that became increasingly powerful in Polish politics.  Okay, to clear things up: you had three primary groups of Polish partisans in WW2. The AK was the biggest one by far, recognized by the government-in-exile and the Allies, and included pretty much everyone outside the lunatic fringe of the pre-war political spectrum - from supporters of the ruling dictatorship to socialists. AK command actually supported Jews and gave weapons to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, even if they said some lovely things about prioritizing "the nation". The other two groups were the People's Guard of the PPR (Soviet-controlled communist partisans, quite small) and the National Armed Forces (NSZ), the military arm of the pre-war far right. Now, these latter dudes for the most part were raging anti-Semites, and did murder a bunch of Jews, which is shameful and horrible. However, the NSZ were never part of the AK. They eventually nominally subordinated themselves to AK command in strictly military matters, and as the situation became more chaotic, often outright ignored orders. One major bone of contention was that the AK wouldn't engage the Communists or, later on, the Soviets; they mostly just tried to stay out of their way and focus on fighting the Germans. The NSZ on the other hand would shoot suspected communists on sight and often engage in skirmishes against reds, and of course in crazy Polish nationalist land "Jew" and "suspected communist" are one and the same. AK command would often issue orders to the tune of "what the gently caress are you even doing we're supposed to be fighting the nazis", but good luck enforcing that in those conditions! So in short it's the typical ridiculous Gordian knot of unclear organizational ties where it's impossible to assign responsibility. Socially speaking, attitudes towards Jews before and during WW2 are a pretty controversial topic that pops up in Polish public debate regularly, and more and more stuff chips away at the idea that the entire nation was composed of crystal clear heroes. Regardless, though, I think the root of the problem with that TV show isn't so much that people don't want to hear it. The topic doesn't cause as much fervor as it used to outside of hardline conservative circles. The main thing is people kinda don't want to be lectured about it by Germans, which doesn't really seem unreasonable to me.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 00:38
|
|
|
Don Gato posted:So I'm reading through The Truthful History of the Conquest of the New Spain and while it is fascinating, does anyone else have good books about the conquest of the New World? Bernal Diaz del Castillo isn't exactly the most reliable source, and my edition has literal wood and leather covers so it weighs a goddamn ton. The parts Victor Davis Hanson wrote about Cortez in Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power are pretty good. Just be warned that it is only a fifth or so of his book and that everything he writes that is related to anything at all modern is utter bullshit. If you can lend it in a library though it's a good read.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 00:59
|
|
|
If there's anyone particularly knowledgeable about the American Civil War around, I've been reading a couple of books about the war recently and one of them mentioned briefly that to some extent, larger for the Confederacy, calling the Union or Confederate armies uniform forces isn't accurate, and that training between different regions could vary dramatically. What I'm curious about is how far this goes, if it was a real thing - was it just a question of them all being drilled in the same things with varying quality, or did different units actually receive markedly different training depending on where they were raised?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 03:04
|
|
|
Found a bunch of recollections from a confederate soldier: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1874/06/a-rebels-recollections-part-1/308760/
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 03:11
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:If there's anyone particularly knowledgeable about the American Civil War around, I've been reading a couple of books about the war recently and one of them mentioned briefly that to some extent, larger for the Confederacy, calling the Union or Confederate armies uniform forces isn't accurate, and that training between different regions could vary dramatically. What I'm curious about is how far this goes, if it was a real thing - was it just a question of them all being drilled in the same things with varying quality, or did different units actually receive markedly different training depending on where they were raised? Well, I'm not an expert, but units were usually raised from particular cities or counties. The officers were local men who were rich, or had good political connections. The US Army at the start of the war was absolutely tiny, and the Union decided to keep those units together rather than spreading out its experienced men. So most units had nobody with any military training at all. They just fumbled around the best they could. It's why the first Bull Run was such a mess. I heard an interesting theory that the South had an advantage in low ranking officers, because it was home to a few military style academies (VMI, the Citadel), and had a bunch of their graduates.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 03:27
|
|
|
Davincie posted:The parts Victor Davis Hanson wrote about Cortez in Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power are pretty good. Just be warned that it is only a fifth or so of his book and that everything he writes that is related to anything at all modern is utter bullshit. If you can lend it in a library though it's a good read. Edit: Nice new av, I had no idea it was you. Edit 2: He's also, no surprise, a racist. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:56 on Dec 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 09:39
|
|
|
There's a really funny part in the book where he compares Alexander to Hitler. Not just for the fact they both were responsible for poo poo tons of deaths, but because 'they both were brilliant generals'. But yeah that's why I said its a lender, we've been using his work to compare outdated/dumb ideas with better historical work. I can't fault his storytelling skills though, the parts written on the actual battles are a fun read, just skip over any time he starts analysing. To his credit, despite being a real life racist, he almost desperately avoids racism in the book.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 14:48
|
|
|
Agean90 posted:Found a bunch of recollections from a confederate soldier: :iamafag: Tee hee, we're on a camping trip! to  In the next few years, everyone I know is probably going to die because of these dumbasses.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 15:35
|
|
|
Hello Military History thread! Does any one have suggestions of books on Italy's various campaigns during WWII?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 23:25
|
|
|
I'm looking for recommendations too, but not for any of them fancy readin' books. I just want to know if anyone could point me towards good documentaries about The WWII Eastern Front, The American Revolutionary War, or The 30 Years' War- preferably available on YouTube or a similar video site. And/or good essays or journalism available on the internet, that relate to any of these subjects. I'm looking for stuff that is relatively unbiased and professional, so that disqualifies a lot of stuff that I'd normally run into by just googling around. Edit: I'm looking for stuff that's aimed at a general audience, not academic articles. SMERSH Mouth fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Dec 21, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2013 06:11
|
|
|
For the Eastern Front of World War 2, I would suggest Soviet Storm.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2013 06:42
|
|
|
I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:I'm looking for recommendations too, but not for any of them fancy readin' books. I just want to know if anyone could point me towards good documentaries about The WWII Eastern Front, The American Revolutionary War, or The 30 Years' War- preferably available on YouTube or a similar video site. And/or good essays or journalism available on the internet, that relate to any of these subjects. I'm looking for stuff that is relatively unbiased and professional, so that disqualifies a lot of stuff that I'd normally run into by just googling around. Episodes 5, 9, 11, 16, 19 and 25 of The World at War. I cannot recommend this highly enough, if you have even a passing interest in World War 2 or documentaries in general you should own this set. uPen fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Dec 21, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2013 08:48
|
|
|
I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:I'm looking for recommendations too, but not for any of them fancy readin' books. I just want to know if anyone could point me towards good documentaries about The WWII Eastern Front, The American Revolutionary War, or The 30 Years' War- preferably available on YouTube or a similar video site. And/or good essays or journalism available on the internet, that relate to any of these subjects. I'm looking for stuff that is relatively unbiased and professional, so that disqualifies a lot of stuff that I'd normally run into by just googling around.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2013 10:25
|
|
|
Are there any good single volume narrative accounts of the Vietnam War? Ideally covering all the way from the French-IndoChina War to the Fall of Saigon? Think A World Undone - Vietnam Edition.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 03:13
|
|
|
Shimrra Jamaane posted:Are there any good single volume narrative accounts of the Vietnam War? Ideally covering all the way from the French-IndoChina War to the Fall of Saigon? Think A World Undone - Vietnam Edition. I think Karnow's book is about as good as war books get.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 04:53
|
|
|
bewbies posted:I think Karnow's book is about as good as war books get. Published in 83, does it still hold up? I would imagine there's been a ton of info released from both sides since the end of the Cold War.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 05:14
|
|
|
Thanks for the recommendations. I figured there would be a good deal more content available covering the Eastern Front than there would be for the American Revolutionary War or the Thirty Years' war, but I'm certainly still interested if anyone has any more suggestions. I know there's got to be more out there beyond Wikipedia and youtubes from Crash Course on the those subjects.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 06:56
|
|
|
I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:Thanks for the recommendations. I figured there would be a good deal more content available covering the Eastern Front than there would be for the American Revolutionary War or the Thirty Years' war, but I'm certainly still interested if anyone has any more suggestions. I know there's got to be more out there beyond Wikipedia and youtubes from Crash Course on the those subjects. Oh! I completely forgot, you probably want to want to watch David Glantz's excellent lecture on the Eastern Front that's up on youtube.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 07:06
|
|
|
I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:I'm looking for recommendations too, but not for any of them fancy readin' books. I just want to know if anyone could point me towards good documentaries about The WWII Eastern Front, The American Revolutionary War, or The 30 Years' War- preferably available on YouTube or a similar video site. And/or good essays or journalism available on the internet, that relate to any of these subjects. I'm looking for stuff that is relatively unbiased and professional, so that disqualifies a lot of stuff that I'd normally run into by just googling around. You can't get any more awesome than this. Honestly, I'ld like to see that sort of presentation for every other war.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 07:27
|
|
|
drat, that's an awesome presentation format.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 07:34
|
|
|
Shimrra Jamaane posted:Are there any good single volume narrative accounts of the Vietnam War? Ideally covering all the way from the French-IndoChina War to the Fall of Saigon? Think A World Undone - Vietnam Edition. http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Longest-War-Vietnam-1950-1975/dp/0072536187 For the big arc. The parts on the French involvement are not that in depth though. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vietnam-Definitive-Oral-History-Sides/dp/0091910129 For further reading fun. One of my favourite historical works ever.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 21:43
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:You can't get any more awesome than this. That really is amazing. Kinda refreshing to see it mostly avoided any nationalist bullshit other than the obvious "we survived the attempt to annihilate our nation" aspect.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 23:12
|
|
|
What really is the difference between a castle and a fort? Be honest, there actually isn't any.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 23:22
|
|
|
Shimrra Jamaane posted:Are there any good single volume narrative accounts of the Vietnam War? Ideally covering all the way from the French-IndoChina War to the Fall of Saigon? Think A World Undone - Vietnam Edition. This isn't exactly what you're asking for, but I still highly recommend it - War Comes To Long An by Jeffrey Race was written in 1972 and is a very detailed description of revolutionary and counter-revolutionary political activity in a single province of South Vietnam. It's remarkable because it clearly tells the story of how and why the war was basically politically unwinnable for the South Vietnamese government and the US. Race was a US soldier in Vietnam in 1965 and came back later in the 60s to do research for his doctoral dissertation, which turned into War Comes To Long An. It's a very well researched book and tells an impressive story about South Vietnam and insurgencies in general. It's widely considered a must-read for anyone interested in the political dynamics of the war.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 23:29
|
|
|
cheerfullydrab posted:What really is the difference between a castle and a fort? Be honest, there actually isn't any.    There are no kings living here, there is only physics and math   The dude who designed these grew up poor and ended his career as a Marshall of France. Really nice, too. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Dec 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2013 23:45
|
|
|
Yeah boiiiiii math owns (and physics etc) Going to one of these fortresses and seeing it in person really helps contextualise it though. Once you see it there are so many questions which you will feel are dumb and easy. It's just a question of seeing it for yourself. I'm sorry I can't recommend any books but as long as you see one you will understand, there's really no other way to get closer to your question.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2013 00:00
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:You can't get any more awesome than this. Interesting how it makes a big deal out of the various communist resistance movements but doesn't even mention the Warsaw Uprising.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2013 00:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 17:59 |
|
|
woops wrong thred
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2013 00:17
|
|
