|
GuyDudeBroMan posted:You are playing the game wrong basically. High level D&D is utterly dominated by spell casters. It's always been that way.
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 07:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 23:17 |
|
|
Most Wizards in BG2 don't cast the really scary defensive spells unless you include SCS. A single Breach will solve most problems. Hell, Jaheira is just shy of a mandatory party member and she can shut down the vast majority of casters you face with Insect 
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 07:42
|
|
|
Depends how many side quests you save until after Spellhold. IIRC not only are most of the contingencies after that point illegal in the base rules, you can't even cast them in your party. Its not a huge complaint since its balanced in a way but returning to the original conversation starter its a taste thing on either end of the conversation since wizard duels take about as much thinking as the horde and crowd control battles in IWD1&2, but on different wavelengths.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 07:49
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Most Wizards in BG2 don't cast the really scary defensive spells unless you include SCS. A single Breach will solve most problems. Yeah, I think exactly one enemy in the game uses Spell Shield. And that's Irenicus at the Tree of Life, who cheats furiously anyway. Any other time you can just cast Breach(unless it's a Lich, whose design is also a bit cheap).
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 10:05
|
|
|
There's also that cowled wizard Edwin sends you to kill as part of the Mae'var quest line. He comes pre-buffed with a stoneskin I've never been able to breach or dispel. Anyone knows what's up with him?
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 10:23
|
|
|
Suspicious posted:There's also that cowled wizard Edwin sends you to kill as part of the Mae'var quest line. He comes pre-buffed with a stoneskin I've never been able to breach or dispel. Anyone knows what's up with him? I think you've just been unlucky. My last playthrough, my inquisitor stripped him bare with one dispel. He didn't live long enough to activate his second spell trigger.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 12:19
|
|
|
Selane posted:Yeah, I think exactly one enemy in the game uses Spell Shield. And that's Irenicus at the Tree of Life, who cheats furiously anyway. Any other time you can just cast Breach(unless it's a Lich, whose design is also a bit cheap). Man, I guess it goes to show how many play throughs I've done over the years with upgraded tactics mods installed that I can't even remember a time Wizards started their fights without Spell Shield.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 12:39
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:Man, I guess it goes to show how many play throughs I've done over the years with upgraded tactics mods installed that I can't even remember a time Wizards started their fights without Spell Shield. Yeah, for all the complaining about Mage battles, the really powerful protections like Spell Shield and Spell Immunity never even get used during the normal game. As for the Rayic Gethras thing, there is an item(stonskin) that basically counts as having the Stoneskin spell if you have it equipped, I think there are a few enemies that use it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 13:19
|
|
|
Dootman posted:For those of you waiting for BG:EE to come down in price, BG1:EE is 60% off and BG2:EE is 33% off on Steam. Funnily enough, buying BG2 at 20% off from Beamdog is still cheaper for Europeans since they sell the game for 20 dollars while Steam just does the whole "replace $ with €" thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 13:29
|
|
|
Anyone ever try for BG2 a dual-class Stalker => Cleric? Thinking Clubs/Flails, 2 weapon style, swap to cleric at 9.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 16:27
|
|
|
I'll go ahead and throw this out there since AD&D chat was going on at the top of this page: I still think AD&D 2E is a better system than the various iterations of 3E. Warriors are miles better than anyone else at melee combat, divine casters have weaker magical powers than their completely absurd 3E iterations (in which they're basically a walking party), and mages are easier to gently caress with and shut down - iirc there is no check or anything like Concentration to avoid having your spells interrupted, if somebody hits you with an axe in the proper window it's interrupted and the spell is wasted. And that's just going off core content, before you get into the absurdity that is 3E's 10,000 additional spells and 400 additional classes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 16:40
|
|
|
Hughlander posted:Anyone ever try for BG2 a dual-class Stalker => Cleric? Thinking Clubs/Flails, 2 weapon style, swap to cleric at 9. I'm doing exactly this right now, but started in BG1 and imported to BG2 (both EE). Your build kinda sounds at odds with itself, though. The best backstabbing weapons are quarterstaves, so if you're gonna make use of your x3 stab multiplier and good stealth, I'd suggest quarterstaff proficiency and one point in two handed weapon style. Clubs are solid for stabs, though. If instead you want to be a mega self-buffing dual-wielding melee blender with a ton of attacks per round, go to Stalker level 13 so you can get their bonus spells at level 12 (Haste, gently caress yeah!) and the extra 1/2 attack at level 13. The Stalker's weaker backstab is really nice in BG1 but I haven't found it to be all that useful in BG2 (remember that bonus damage from strength doesn't apply for backstabs). I think you'd be better off going unkitted Ranger->Cleric dualling at 7 or 9 or multiclass Ranger/Cleric. I don't see a lot of benefit to picking the Stalker kit in BG2 unless you take it to 13. Edit: also, vanilla BG2 doesn't allow Stalker->Cleric dual, though EE does. If you're not playing EE, you'll need a mod or Shadowkeeper to make it happen. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Dec 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 16:44
|
|
|
Pellisworth posted:I'm doing exactly this right now, but started in BG1 and imported to BG2 (both EE). Your build kinda sounds at odds with itself, though. The best backstabbing weapons are quarterstaves, so if you're gonna make use of your x3 stab multiplier and good stealth, I'd suggest quarterstaff proficiency and one point in two handed weapon style. Clubs are solid for stabs, though. If instead you want to be a mega self-buffing dual-wielding melee blender with a ton of attacks per round, go to Stalker level 13 so you can get their bonus spells at level 12 (Haste, gently caress yeah!) and the extra 1/2 attack at level 13. I just did a cleric/thief multiclass so didn't want to do another quaterstaff stabber. I wanted to use the skill points inherent in a ranger and do flail of ages off hand with some BS club for stabs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 16:47
|
|
|
Hughlander posted:Anyone ever try for BG2 a dual-class Stalker => Cleric? Thinking Clubs/Flails, 2 weapon style, swap to cleric at 9. I'd rather go regular ranger and be able to wear any armor.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 16:56
|
|
|
Hughlander posted:I just did a cleric/thief multiclass so didn't want to do another quaterstaff stabber. I wanted to use the skill points inherent in a ranger and do flail of ages off hand with some BS club for stabs. Well, you're limited to 2 pips (3 in two weapon style) as a Ranger so you should have no problem investing in proficiencies to do all that. Don't use Flail of Ages off hand, you definitely would want that in your main hand. The way dual-wielding works, you only ever get one off-hand attack, everything else (even bonus attacks from haste etc) is main hand. Example: I'm a 13 Stalker/14 Cleric with 3 pips in two weapon style. While dual wielding that gives me 2.5 base attacks per round, plus one off-hand from dual wielding. With Improved Haste that doubles to 7 APR, 6 mainhand attacks with no penalty and one offhand attack at a -2 penalty. That's why I want my strongest weapon with the best damage/THAC0/on-hit stuff in my main hand. If I wasn't limited to blunt weapons, I could throw Belm (+1 attack per round scimitar) in my offhand which with improved Haste would be 9 APR (8 mainhand, 1 off). Or I could off-hand Crom Faeyr with mainhand Flail of Ages, where Crom would basically just be a fat 25 STR stat-stick. Edit: Piell posted:I'd rather go regular ranger and be able to wear any armor. Late edit: it's also worth it to consider a multiclass Ranger/Cleric if you want to be more melee-oriented. Dual classing misses out on warrior HLAs so it's a bit more caster-focused option in the late game. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Dec 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 16:56
|
|
|
I am currently trying to decide between a Kensai/Mage or a Ranger/Cleric. Any suggestions?
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 18:59
|
|
|
Selane posted:Yeah, I think exactly one enemy in the game uses Spell Shield. And that's Irenicus at the Tree of Life, who cheats furiously anyway. Any other time you can just cast Breach(unless it's a Lich, whose design is also a bit cheap). I have a lazy rear end solution to Liches too! Aside from fighting the one that has Daystar semi-legit, I tend to just use the Helm of Vhailor and activate Daystar on both myself and my clone to instant kill them. No Lich can survive double Daystar.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:02
|
|
|
^^: Does that work on assholes imprison spammers like Kangaxx?UberJumper posted:I am currently trying to decide between a Kensai/Mage or a Ranger/Cleric. Kensai/mage was really fun for my last play through. All that annoying mage crap goes away with a breach and secret word then you can destroy whatever caster is there. You shore up your defenses with improved invisibility, blur, armor spells, and stone skin. There's plenty of equipment you use too. I dual classed at 9 so I didn't have to wait to much to become a mage again and it worked well. I could do pretty much all of the subquests before hitting chapter 3.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:09
|
|
|
Zombies' Downfall posted:And that's just going off core content, before you get into the absurdity that is 3E's 10,000 additional spells and 400 additional classes. I think 3E is a much more consistent and clear system than 2nd Ed., but its content errs on the side of accelerating power gain too quickly. Both 2nd and 3E have a ton of non-core content to pick from. Overall, the 2nd Ed. extended material is not as game-busting, though the lack of clear stacking rules can lead to ludicrous combinations.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:10
|
|
|
Azuth0667 posted:^^: Does that work on assholes imprison spammers like Kangaxx? No. As far as I can tell Demi-Liches don't count as undead because Sunray does fuckall to them so you still need a plan for Demi-Lich Kangaxx. I think last time I did this I double Daystarred Kangaxx Phase 1 to instantly send him into Phase 2, then slapped him with the Mace of Disruption with Improved Haste to kill him before he could imprison anybody. Something like that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:12
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:No. As far as I can tell Demi-Liches don't count as undead because Sunray does fuckall to them so you still need a plan for Demi-Lich Kangaxx. Sounds like I should stick to only sending the main character in ravager form.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:14
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:I have a lazy rear end solution to Liches too! Aside from fighting the one that has Daystar semi-legit, I tend to just use the Helm of Vhailor and activate Daystar on both myself and my clone to instant kill them. No Lich can survive double Daystar. This is why I pretty much have to play the game with every tactics mod I can find cranked to maximum. There's so much broke rear end stuff the player can pull that the only way for the AI to even have a chance is if you let them cheat their balls off too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:15
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:This is why I pretty much have to play the game with every tactics mod I can find cranked to maximum. There's so much broke rear end stuff the player can pull that the only way for the AI to even have a chance is if you let them cheat their balls off too. On the other hand, do the tactics mods actually add difficulty or tedium? Is mimicking the same Spell Protection and Spell Disruption stratagem for every single fight really all that interesting? I mean I guess it is for some folks but it just sounds like a huge waste of time to me. I always take the path of least resistance with mages, which is why I've developed tricks like this. gently caress 'em and gently caress buffing if I don't have to.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:17
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:On the other hand, do the tactics mods actually add difficulty or tedium? Is mimicking the same Spell Protection and Spell Disruption stratagem for every It actually does. A ton of Wizards and Liches have pretty devastating spell repertoires that they never get a chance to work through because anyone with a brain understands the simple axiom of "kill the caster/wizard/pointyhat first," and does just that. The tactics mods let them start with a free layer of defense spells, so they generally get a chance to cast at least one or two of their offense options while you're stripping them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:22
|
|
|
Except that the strategy then becomes to buff to the nines so that you're immune to anything they could possibly do for long enough to pull their protections off, you keep the party members who aren't out of sight, and move them in once he's dead. Rinse, repeat ad infinitum. It's the same thing just with more minutia and it takes longer. It's the same thing wherein the designers and fanbase of 3E mistook complexity for depth or quality of design.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:26
|
|
|
rope kid posted:I think 3E is a much more consistent and clear system than 2nd Ed., but its content errs on the side of accelerating power gain too quickly. Both 2nd and 3E have a ton of non-core content to pick from. Overall, the 2nd Ed. extended material is not as game-busting, though the lack of clear stacking rules can lead to ludicrous combinations.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:31
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Except that the strategy then becomes to buff to the nines so that you're immune to anything they could possibly do for long enough to pull their protections off, you keep the party members who aren't out of sight, and move them in once he's dead. Rinse, repeat ad infinitum. Their AI and judgement for what spells to use is considerably improved as well, but of course you can always out smart them. The player is always going to have aces over any AI, especially in an RPG and especially in an RPG that was engineered to have humans on both sides of the equation. But at least it turns them into something more than a speed bump, you actually have to respect and make some allowance for the threat they pose. In the base game you just walk up and skull thump them with zero effort. It's barely better than setting the game to easy and spamming Ctrl-Y on everything with a red circle.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:33
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:Their AI and judgement for what spells to use is considerably improved as well, but of course you can always out smart them. The player is always going to have aces over any AI, especially in an RPG and especially in an RPG that was engineered to have humans on both sides of the equation. Negative. It's easy to forget when you've played these games many many times, but there's a reason why SCS isn't the default and CTRL+Y being a "rough equivalent" is neither true nor it. The reason is that these games don't, and shouldn't, assume you have encyclopedic knowledge of all spell options available to you. It is not good encounter design to require the player to know exactly what is coming before hand. These games are inaccessible enough as it is. Allowing for a variety of solutions to a problem is a good thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:37
|
|
|
UberJumper posted:I am currently trying to decide between a Kensai/Mage or a Ranger/Cleric. Captain Oblivious posted:It's the same thing just with more minutia and it takes longer. It's the same thing wherein the designers and fanbase of 3E mistook complexity for depth or quality of design.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:38
|
|
|
Clanger is never the wrong answer to any question.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:39
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Negative. It's easy to forget when you've played these games many many times, but there's a reason why SCS isn't the default and CTRL+Y being a "rough equivalent" is neither true nor it. The reason is that these games don't, and shouldn't, assume you have encyclopedic knowledge of all spell options available to you. It is not good encounter design to require the player to know exactly what is coming before hand. I... what? What the hell does that have to do with anything? We're talking about players with some veterancy in the game. My original post was in response to you using Helm of Vhailor to clone Daystar and clobber liches, that's a pretty esoteric tactic! When you've reached the simulacrum cheese I think it's pretty safe to say that you understand the game well enough for beating the default difficulty and AI to be about on par with Ctrl-Y spam. Tactics mods aren't the ideal way to level the playing field, but since the game doesn't offer the option of letting a human control the enemy NPCs there really isn't any other choice if you want the game to pose any kind of challenge. Is it more tedious? Maybe, sometimes, but when you've played the enough to understand and exploit the systems what else is there between that and pointlessly easy?
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:50
|
|
|
Skippy McPants posted:I... what? What the hell does that have to do with anything? We're talking about players with some veterancy in the game. My original post was in response to you using Helm of Vhailor to clone Daystar and clobber liches, that's a pretty esoteric tactic! When you've reached the simulacrum cheese I think it's pretty safe to say that you understand the game well enough for beating the default difficulty and AI to be about on par with Ctrl-Y spam. Enjoying the encounter design for what it is and overcoming it with a variety of unorthodox options that are likely strictly non-optimal  Not so different from what you do after you beat Dark Souls really. I'll take that over adding fake difficulty any day.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 19:59
|
|
|
Yeah I think there is a disconnect between casually playing these Infinity Engine games and powergaming them. I am finding BG2EE "challenging" because of the quantity of (what I consider) overpowered mages, but I am playing casually. I have not read every spell and its effects and I am not using the absolute best party composition....that should not make me be required to constantly savescum or use gamey tactics to get by (if I am being intelligent, I'm not saying any idiot should be able to run any part comp and fly though). If I wasnt being cheesey I would be resting after every-other encounter because of the damage I would be taking or because I would run out of the necessary spells to deal with the mages. Despite being an idiot about certain spells, I hate that a lot of encounters are all about stopping the mage before the mage gets a certain spell off. I am not trying to sound bitchy, I am just saying that from my point of view that "hey I remember this game being great but I never finished it" and I am playing it casually. Despite that, I am taking a lot of advice posted here in this thread to try to improve my experience because I was definitely wrong about some things. I need to play Icewind Dale 2 again now because I am positive that the game was challenging and engaging without being obnoxious about mages making it artificially hard by using a few good spells. It helps that IWD2 is 3E where spells are a bit more balanced and saving throws are more understandable and buffable (via feats) as well (so if there is a spell (or spell type) that is repeatedly giving you a hard time, you can try to make yourself more resistant to it; in 2E that is virtually impossible). My point is that through good encounter design the game is a fun challenge (for a casual player like myself) without being tedious; the majority of encounters with humanoids in BG2EE involves a spellcaster that is annoying as gently caress to deal with, with a few lovely melee or archer cohorts that are total wimps. I am fairly certain IWD2 has better quality average enemies and spellcasters are included in encounters, but they are a little bit less of a threat because the archers and melee dudes are actually a threat. edit: what is crtl y spam?
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 20:01
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Clanger is never the wrong answer to any question. Oh yeah? What do you call a mouse that lives on the moon... oh, wait.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 20:02
|
|
|
Mickey McKey posted:Yeah I think there is a disconnect between casually playing these Infinity Engine games and powergaming them. I am finding BG2EE "challenging" because of the quantity of (what I consider) overpowered mages, but I am playing casually. I have not read every spell and its effects and I am not using the absolute best party composition....that should not make me be required to constantly savescum or use gamey tactics to get by. If I wasnt being cheesey I would be resting after every-other encounter because of the damage I would be taking or because I would run out of the necessary spells to deal with the mages. Despite being an idiot about certain spells, I hate that a lot of encounters are all about stopping the mage before the mage gets a certain spell off. I am not trying to sound bitchy, I am just saying that from my point of view that "hey I remember this game being great but I never finished it" and I am playing it casually. Despite that, I am taking a lot of advice posted here in this thread to try to improve my experience because I was definitely wrong about some things. CTRL+Y with the CLUAConsole kills whatever your mouse is hovering over. The main reason mages are so overpowered in AD&D is that CC spells last an eternity, to a degree that someone who gets Confused or Feared or Held might as well be dead. But yeah with some simple use of Breach and Insect Swarm (and occasionally anti-invisibility measures) the casual player will be fine. Things will sometimes not go 100% according to plan but you should be fine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 20:04
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Enjoying the encounter design for what it is and overcoming it with a variety of unorthodox options that are likely strictly non-optimal How is it fake difficulty? Because it's a mod? You seem to be arguing something different in each post you make, so I'm kind of losing track of the point you were going for. In the first reply you asked if it added difficulty or tedium, and I more or less said yes. It adds both, but when the alternative is for the game to be easy and still tedious then it seems like a reasonable trade off. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Dec 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 20:06
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:CTRL+Y with the CLUAConsole kills whatever your mouse is hovering over. .Captain Oblivious posted:The main reason mages are so overpowered in AD&D is that CC spells last an eternity, to a degree that someone who gets Confused or Feared or Held might as well be dead. But yeah with some simple use of Breach and Insect Swarm (and occasionally anti-invisibility measures) the casual player will be fine. Things will sometimes not go 100% according to plan but you should be fine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 20:10
|
|
|
Mickey McKey posted:Yep, I am adjusting my tactics and learning, but I stand by my "there are too many mages making the game artificially hard" statement. I have yet to be in a melee that has been a challenge once the hostile spellcaster has died, and I find that really silly. And I hardly ever use offensive spells of my own for crowd control. It helps that my party -despite not being all of the best NPCs- is optimized towards what they are good at and my main is a full-fighter with all the best equipment I can get, but it just seems like the non-mages are far too weak compared to the sheer "fuuuuck he's gotta die" that mages cause. There's a reason that the OP called it Mage Duel: The Game. If you don't like the spell system in BG 2 and squaring off against enemy casters then the combat is going to go stale pretty quickly. That said I wouldn't say IWD and especially IWD 2 have it that much better. They de-power casters, but mostly compensate by throwing massive blobs of enemies at you, which isn't intrinsically better.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 20:14
|
|
|
Mickey McKey posted:Ah, I dont even know what that means, but that is okay because I do not want to be tempted to do it Yeah, that really doesn't happen until ToB where enemies are spamming GWW and Hardiness all over the place and have ridiculous stats.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 20:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 23:17 |
|
|
Selane posted:Yeah, that really doesn't happen until ToB where enemies are spamming GWW and Hardiness all over the place and have ridiculous stats. But then Sarevok proc's Deathbringer Assault and suddenly nothing is alive anymore. Edit: The best part is that Deathbringer Assault has a 10% chance to stun, but you'd never know it since there are only like three things in the game that can survive the 200 up front damage it deals.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2013 20:21
|
|