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I don't think Shepard's ever sat down and told Harbinger was a Reaper on-screen.
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Dec 26, 2013 08:02
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n4 posted:Haha, I love the N7 Reaper. Some people assumed it as early as Horizon because the subtitles gave it away but, like you said, it's only during the 'end run' cutscene where you see Harbinger release control that it is made explicit. There is a bit of weirdness there, where Shepard has never really been made aware of what Harbinger is, but I guess Bioware thought they solved that when Joker hands Shepard over a schematic of Harbinger. Of course, since Shepard tells the Illusive Man that 'Harbinger is coming' before that point, he already knows that, so...  It's almost certainly a case of 'Well, since the players have figured it out, Shepard just knows it'. The Codex never explains it, in Mass Effect 2 at least.
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Dec 26, 2013 08:04
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n4 posted:Haha, I love the N7 Reaper. Edit: Oh, long beaten because I didn't look at the next page. Lycus fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Dec 26, 2013 |
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Dec 26, 2013 08:36
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EDIT: Jesus christ, why is it that every time I spend 10 minutes looking for something, get frustrated, bitch about it online, and THEN find what I'm looking for. 
MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 08:54 on Dec 26, 2013 |
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Dec 26, 2013 08:52
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Shepard knew otherwise they would have potentially treated Harbinger as a love interest, which would have been almost slightly better than what Harbinger ended up getting in 3.
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Dec 26, 2013 09:13
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Milky Moor posted:If it's all the same then the Catalyst's motivation would reflect that. It's not. In the text there is something inherently different or special about synthetic and organic conflict that makes it worth having a multiple, perpetual apocalypse over to stop. The Reapers are not concerned with intergenerational conflict as a wide concept - they exist to prevent a synthetic uprising that eliminates all organic life forevermore. I... it's subtext. The Reapers already exist to stop intergenerational conflict because that's what organic/synthetic conflict is. That's what it means. You didn't think that it was a cautionary tale on the dangers of artificial intelligence, did you? Subtext isn't text. That's the whole point. Next you'll be telling me Maelon isn't actually Mordin's son.
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Dec 26, 2013 09:54
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Citadel DLC questions: I know the thing ends with a party, and I'm completionist enough that I want everyone to be there. I haven't done Miranda's cameo mission yet; does this preclude her from being at the party? I'm not too far in the DLC*, so reverting to a never-started-the-DLC save isn't too painful. Or can the Party Mission be done at any time, and isn't forced on you after completion of the previous mission? * I am a Soldier. Using a pistol. That requires ammo. This is not life. This is sickness.
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Dec 26, 2013 10:12
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MisterBibs posted:Citadel DLC questions: That pistol part was painful for my soldier too  Anyways the party can indeed be started at your leisure once you finish the DLC's story. Once a character has their "moment" in ME3 is when they're unlocked to be invited, which is why you need to wait until the most inappropriate moment of after Horizon if you care about Miranda. There's also a small scene with every squad member that shows up in ME1-3 that is separate from the party but dependant on the same variable. After every mission or, and this is important, round in the combat simulator the emails on your computer will refresh with new people asking if you can show up at X location or if they can come to your apartment. I think you reply to the message to activate the scene. You can't ever overwrite emails if you do two missions in a row or something either. These don't affect the party or vice versa, they can be done before or after. The DLC's story only ever involves the squad members you get in ME3 (plus a special guest) so as long as you have Tali you have everyone you can get for that. Kibayasu fucked around with this message at 10:26 on Dec 26, 2013 |
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Dec 26, 2013 10:23
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You know what they could have done, that wouldn't even have altered their ending too much, and made ME2 connect with the starchild that much more? The Harbinger body would be another layer of "Assuming Direct Control" and when you face the actual starchild/catalyst he releases control of Harbinger; The actual Harbinger would be just as much as a dick (it's a reaper and all) but the starchild's existence and observations would have been able to be retconned into ME2 that way.
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Dec 26, 2013 11:48
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n4 posted:In the Arrival DLC, Shepard talks to a hologram of Harbinger and seems to already know who Harbinger is. But as far as I know, the reveal that Harbinger is a Reaper happens during the ending of the main game as the Collector base is being destroyed It does happen there, and also to Shepard (Harbinger speaks directly to Shepard and while it's only the player that sees the hologram scene, it's implied that this is the point where Shepard figures it out as well). Interesting thing about Arrival; Did you play it before or after the Suicide Mission? Because playing it before has you talking to a hologram of the Collector General and I think slightly altered dialogue which is a bit weird and out of place. If you play it after the main storyline though (as you should be), you'll be talking to a hologram of Harbinger itself and Shepard specifically addresses him as such. It works much better.
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Dec 26, 2013 13:44
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I figured Harbinger was a Reaper right from his first line, because I finished ME1 right before starting 2 and "assuming direct control" looks pretty much exactly like what Sovereign did to Saren. I appreciated them not trying to make it a big reveal since that would have fallen hilariously flat; that two-second glimpse of a Reaper hologram at the end was more than enough.
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Dec 26, 2013 16:16
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Lt. Danger posted:Subtext isn't text. That's the whole point. Next you'll be telling me Maelon isn't actually Mordin's son. I'll certainly tell you that, because there's absolutely no reason to think that he is, particularly since his loyalty mission is one of the few that isn't directly parent-child.
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Dec 26, 2013 16:57
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CaptainCarrot posted:I'll certainly tell you that, because there's absolutely no reason to think that he is, particularly since his loyalty mission is one of the few that isn't directly parent-child.  v Why hello there. v Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 26, 2013 |
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Dec 26, 2013 16:59
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CaptainCarrot posted:I'll certainly tell you that, because there's absolutely no reason to think that he is, particularly since his loyalty mission is one of the few that isn't directly parent-child.
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Dec 26, 2013 17:01
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CaptainCarrot posted:I'll certainly tell you that, because there's absolutely no reason to think that he is, particularly since his loyalty mission is one of the few that isn't directly parent-child. You're amazing.
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Dec 26, 2013 17:28
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Nerts to all of you. You know, we make fun of Jacob a lot, but in all seriousness, is there any reason he's in the game besides being normal-ish and providing the player with a second party member on the station?
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Dec 26, 2013 18:26
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CaptainCarrot posted:Nerts to all of you. Standard BioWare initial companion protocol is to give you a warrior and a wizard at some point midway through the first chapter. Miranda's the wizard, Jacob's the warrior (with a bit of wizard thrown in).
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Dec 26, 2013 18:40
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Wait, Maelon is supposed to be Mordin's son? Where was this?  Anyhow, Bioware should've just given up and gone full Asimov, the space global warming in 2 should've let to the plot of 3 being the Reapers trying to bring about a more malevolent version of this.
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Dec 26, 2013 18:43
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Milky Moor posted:Was there another example of that organic/synthetic conflict at all in the series? I know people like to keep saying that it is the central theme of the series but here I am wracking my brain and all I can think about is that there was the gambling AI on the Citadel and proto-EDI on Luna, I guess. And EDI comes to serve as a loyal and valued equal in Shepard's squad without killing anyone, so...
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Dec 26, 2013 18:46
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Lightning Knight posted:Wait, Maelon is supposed to be Mordin's son? Where was this? In case we haven't made it clear enough, it's A loving METAPHOR. It matters little that Maelon isn't Mordin's biological son because he's clearly his surrogate son. Jesus Christ people this is like subtext 101. Also Jacob owns.
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Dec 26, 2013 18:53
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Lightning Knight posted:Wait, Maelon is supposed to be Mordin's son? Where was this? People still go nuts over this story, which is fine enough, I suppose - it's an archetypical work of SF in the sense that it's an idea so simple and obvious someone was going to write it very early on. But I don't think The Last Question is a particularly good work of fiction, and I don't think it would've made an interesting conclusion for Mass Effect. 'Post-Singularity machines attempt to forestall/circumvent the end of the universe' is a tired old cliche of science fiction , and while it might've been less disappointing than what we got, I don't think it would've been much less disappointing.
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Dec 26, 2013 19:46
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If I'm not mistaken after you beat the Horizon mission there's a line in the quest debrief mission log about how Harbinger can possess individual collectors and how that's troubling. I just assumed that meant the Illusive Man at least already knew about Harbinger. Of course I'm not sure from a story standpoint if Shepherd is actually supposed to be reading those little mission logs as I also recall one talking about how the revelation of Archangel being Garrus should help make Shepherd more comfortable and prepared for his mission. It seems kinda weird to imagine Shepherd reading that bit.
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Dec 26, 2013 21:34
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Yeah I've always figured the post-mission stuff was a Cerberus-Only thing. Like I said before, there's a decent handful of times when the little blurb says something kinda ominous. "Hey you got the Special Thing!" missions having blurbs that say "Cerberus now in control of Special Thing". CitadelDLCTalk: Man, Wrex's intro is loving amazing, as was the fight right after. I didn't have to control him, motherfucker ran headlong into every enemy he saw. shotgunning and headbutting like a maniac. Even Grunt never did that! It's kinda ominous (there's me using that word again) where he explains he's bitching with the Council over settlement rights. Kinda the same thing that happened before the Krogan Rebellions. Awkward.
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Dec 26, 2013 21:45
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DrNutt posted:In case we haven't made it clear enough, it's A loving METAPHOR. It matters little that Maelon isn't Mordin's biological son because he's clearly his surrogate son. Jesus Christ people this is like subtext 101. Oh, ok. I didn't really pick up on that but it makes sense. I just thought people were saying that was an actual reveal and was very confused.  General Battuta posted:People still go nuts over this story, which is fine enough, I suppose - it's an archetypical work of SF in the sense that it's an idea so simple and obvious someone was going to write it very early on. But I don't think The Last Question is a particularly good work of fiction, and I don't think it would've made an interesting conclusion for Mass Effect. 'Post-Singularity machines attempt to forestall/circumvent the end of the universe' is a tired old cliche of science fiction , and while it might've been less disappointing than what we got, I don't think it would've been much less disappointing. I don't think it's the pinnacle of writing or the best ending Mass Effect could've gotten in theory but given the direction they let the writing go overall in 2 I think it's probably about the closest they could've gotten to a well-forshadowed ending, all things considered.
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Dec 27, 2013 02:25
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Lightning Knight posted:Oh, ok. I didn't really pick up on that but it makes sense. I just thought people were saying that was an actual reveal and was very confused. I disagree. The dark matter stuff was some tiny background details in like a minor mission and an even smaller sidequest. Anyway the entire series has been about interaction between past and future, and choices and consequences and blah blah. The ending focuses too much on the superficial organic/synthetic aspect of that and also is just poorly executed all around but focusing on that intergenerational conflict/dealing with mortality and legacy and whatever is much more thematically relevant than an analogy for environmentally destructive technology?
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Dec 27, 2013 03:29
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Of all the things I think that ME3 could have benefited from, I think the most beneficial would have been to have made the Reaper invasion a mid-game event, as opposed to occurring right out of the gate. It's a nice initial shock, but the constant time constraint makes the game feel strangely rushed, and lacks the sense of exploration that was present in the first two games. And again, exploration is the heart of Mass Effect. At least in my opinion.
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Dec 27, 2013 03:40
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I've always thought that the best thing they could have done is made the game and especially the ending all about the idea of what's truly important to Shepard, and tie that to the ideas behind Paragon and Renegade. Basically, boil the series down to a question of selfish/selfless actions and moral choices. Will you sacrifice Earth to save the galaxy? Will you stay true to being a Spectre at the expense of your friends and allies? How much of the galaxy will you sacrifice for your friends, and how many of your friends will you sacrifice to destroy or cast out the Reapers? Will you ultimately sacrifice yourself, or position someone else to take the final bullet? The Reapers don't even need to be explained in this ending; let them remain mysterious agents and the antagonists driving the story, because no explanation for them was going to live up to the expectations we'd come up with. If you need an explanation for the Reapers, though, what they went with is functional; where they slipped up is in the foreshadowing of it and the final presentation.
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Dec 27, 2013 03:42
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SuitcoatAvenger posted:Of all the things I think that ME3 could have benefited from, I think the most beneficial would have been to have made the Reaper invasion a mid-game event, as opposed to occurring right out of the gate. It's a nice initial shock, but the constant time constraint makes the game feel strangely rushed, and lacks the sense of exploration that was present in the first two games. And again, exploration is the heart of Mass Effect. At least in my opinion. I said that all the time in the spoiler thread. The writers wrote themselves into a corner by tossing us into Reaper invasion right out of the gate. They could have at least had a few hours on Earth to build up some attachment to the setting beyond "its Earth, don't you care?!!" or "a CHILD died!!" and even build up the Crucible so it doesn't feel like quite as big of an asspull. Really, I'd go one better and push the invasion back into a fourth game so we could spend game three preparing for the coming war: playing diplomat, making deals, facing Cerberus once and for all, enlisting allies, searching out resources, deciphering the Citadel Relay controls, whatever else may be needed to give the galaxy a faint chance in the battle instead of going straight for spectacle. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 03:49
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Lightning Knight posted:Oh, ok. I didn't really pick up on that but it makes sense. I just thought people were saying that was an actual reveal and was very confused. To be fair, if you then apply the ultimate solution from the Mass Effect 3 endings, the way to finally make peace is to somehow merge with your parents. Or kill them. Or enslave them, somehow.
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Dec 27, 2013 03:51
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Mazerunner posted:...but focusing on that intergenerational conflict/dealing with mortality and legacy and whatever is much more thematically relevant than an analogy for environmentally destructive technology? Considering that particular idea is expressed in pretty much every character subplot in the game, Yes.
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Dec 27, 2013 03:59
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CPFortest posted:Considering that particular idea is expressed in pretty much every character subplot in the game, Yes. I... think I badly mangled that sentence. Yes, the intergenerational/legacy/choice/etc. stuff is the more important and relevant issue, not the space-environmentalism(?).
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Dec 27, 2013 04:36
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Mazerunner posted:I... think I badly mangled that sentence. Yes, the intergenerational/legacy/choice/etc. stuff is the more important and relevant issue, not the space-environmentalism(?). Yeah, that's what I think.
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Dec 27, 2013 04:44
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I have a bit of a technical problem, if you guys don't mind lending me your expertise. I have the Mass Effect trilogy for Xbox and have been playing the various games for several years. I've bought and downloaded all the DLC, but for some reason, ME won't let me boot up a game with DLC stuff if I don't have an internet connection and haven't signed on to Xbox Live yet. When I try to resume my game, it gives me a pop up warning about not having a connection and not being able to access the DLC. This occurs with both ME1 and ME2 (I can't recall if it happens with ME3). If the internet drops out while I'm playing, it still runs fine. It just won't boot up my last save without my logging on to Xbox Live. Is this the case with everyone or is this just a weird thing happening to me?
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Dec 27, 2013 07:51
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Geostomp posted:I said that all the time in the spoiler thread. The writers wrote themselves into a corner by tossing us into Reaper invasion right out of the gate. They could have at least had a few hours on Earth to build up some attachment to the setting beyond "its Earth, don't you care?!!" or "a CHILD died!!" and even build up the Crucible so it doesn't feel like quite as big of an asspull. On the other hand, the crucible was clearly last minute bullshit. I did a creative writing degree a few years back, and there are so many ways in which the ending is bad; mostly because a lot of it is clearly not foreshadowed across the first two games, and so many bits of foreshadowing that just drop out of existence. I get the impression that they changed the ending because the internet predicted the one they were really going for, and they wanted to seem clever by surprising us with something we wouldn't see coming. There's a big difference though between surprising an audience with something they didn't see coming, and disappointing them with something they couldn't have seen coming. quote:Really, I'd go one better and push the invasion back into a fourth game so we could spend game three preparing for the coming war: playing diplomat, making deals, facing Cerberus once and for all, enlisting allies, searching out resources, deciphering the Citadel Relay controls, whatever else may be needed to give the galaxy a faint chance in the battle instead of going straight for spectacle. I feel like they established the 'nobody's going to listen until it's too late to do anything' theme from the start of the trilogy; so in a way, 3 being the payoff to a galaxy that didn't listen makes perfect sense. Along with Cerberus taking advantage of the chaos, the warmongers you keep coming across and the various merc organisations in 2; I feel like if the central theme in the trilogy is anything, it's that people act like complete cocks and then bleat about how nobody stopped the consequences of their actions.
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Dec 27, 2013 09:22
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Bobby Deluxe posted:The problem there is that people would complain that they weren't given a chance to go back and complete sidequests, buy upgrades, blah blah. People always do when bioware cuts them off from a hub. The weird thing is, you would think the ending is one of the first things planned out when deciding how to end what was, quite possibly, the biggest trilogy in gaming history.
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Dec 27, 2013 09:32
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Milky Moor posted:The weird thing is, you would think the ending is one of the first things planned out when deciding how to end what was, quite possibly, the biggest trilogy in gaming history.
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Dec 27, 2013 09:58
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I wish there was more of an interest in the creative process of games from gamers and gaming journalism (lol), like there is in films. How things were made, why certain decisions were made, what the difficulties and obstacles were. I reckon the development of Mass Effect 3 would be enlightening and pretty fascinating.
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Dec 27, 2013 10:15
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I feel like they established the 'nobody's going to listen until it's too late to do anything' theme from the start of the trilogy; so in a way, 3 being the payoff to a galaxy that didn't listen makes perfect sense. Well, there was enough foreshadowing of preparations that a lot of things could have been plausibly different ...I've started ranting. Anyways, agreed, there were more than enough outs either way that the Crucible didn't need to happen. I just think the "behind-the-scenes preparation since ME1" angle would have fit very well with the first two games, since it was set up in a way that would make the entire galaxy's preparedness the direct result of Shepard's actions, without that being directly player-driven (i.e. "Hey Shepard, remember when you told us to build that fleet 'cause the Reapers were coming?").
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Dec 27, 2013 10:34
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If we're looking for themes from what we now have, it's probably that one person can only do so much. What Shepard achieved is pretty amazing, all things considered; but if the rest of the galaxy is sticking its head in the sand, there's only souch one person can do to save them.
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Dec 27, 2013 11:57
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How many of you have played ME3 (or any of the other games) since you either played or learned about the ending? I'm curious if the initial anger went away and allowed people to play again, or if some people were just turned off outright. I've done 2 trilogy playthroughs since ME3 came out. Now it's kinda become a Christmas tradition for me.
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