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Regarde Aduck posted:
They had a trade agreement back when Korea wasn't even a united country but there's no evidence that that's the case (Korea has been a Chinese puppet however, and while China is definitely insular it's also a lot more minority friendly than Japan). (let me be clear though that "more minority friendly" is in "tallest midget" levels of relativity) computer parts fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Dec 8, 2013 |
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Dec 8, 2013 15:03
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V. Illych L. posted:
But it's what makes every single capital in Europe so special!
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Dec 8, 2013 16:20
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Oh, you're forgetting the one brave exception to the rule. Budapest banned homeless people, in order to make life better for everyone. Everyone who could count in select definitions of everyone, anyway.
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Dec 8, 2013 16:50
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Mans posted:But it's what makes every single capital in Europe so special! Paris is crazy, though. Neither Berlin nor Vienna nor Rome are even close to having as much visible poverty in their metropolitan areas. Taking a walk through central Paris makes you understand why kicking out the Roma becomes a popular policy even in a fairly progressive city like that - it hurts to see so many people suffering. It's perverse that the instinct to redress it becomes "kick them out" rather than "help them", but that's where our welfare states seem to have ended up. And really, a lot of these people have no papers, no identity and don't speak the language. They're notoriously hard to reach with any sort of social assistance. I'm not saying I agree (I don't!), but I can understand wanting to just get the problem out of your sight. I suspect that's one big factor in the Front National's recent gains, actually - people want a strong welfare state, and they want it to be simple, which means just giving up on these expensive and complicated measures to help foreigners. Just drive them out or underground; it may not actually solve their problems, but at least we don't have to deal with it. The kicker, of course, is that basically nobody in Paris or its environs actually votes FN, so it's more the idea of it all that's driving things.
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Dec 8, 2013 18:32
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Regarde Aduck posted:No bashing the fash in the bashing the fash room. Not that I recall. I do know that the Japanese looked down on the Koreans in that good old-fashioned untermenschen way for centuries, though, and were not at all happy when DNA evidence showed the two races had a common derivation.
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Dec 8, 2013 19:51
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V. Illych L. posted:I remember running into the Paris Identitaires at one point while I was living there. They seemed like a bunch of complete incompetents, though. From what I understand they're actually fairly organised in Southern France, but in Paris they got run off right quick by what I think were anarchists. Can't remember what they were doing, though - I think it was some 'anticommunist' rally or something. Oh they're loving idiots no doubt about it. I'll ask some of the comrades over at KPÖ Wien for the one story I heard about one of these Identitarians trying to disrupt a meeting/lecture, basically fumbling awkwardly with a bunch of papers before running out of the convention lol
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Dec 8, 2013 20:16
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Guildencrantz posted:Thanks for the links! I'll check them out more closely once I've had some sleep, since reading Danish takes a whole bunch of mental effort. If you're still interested in the topic, four members independently wrote an alternative new program that they're trying to gain support for, but it's mainly intended as an entry in the debate over the program revision and direction of the party. The Marxist origins are a lot more evident in this one and it offers a solid class analysis as well. It's probably a long shot, but I really hope it, or at least some variation on it, ends up replacing the old one. http://modkraft.dk/artikel/frihed-lighed-og-solidaritet
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Dec 10, 2013 09:17
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http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/15/world/europe/sweden-nazi-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t2quote:
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Dec 16, 2013 07:35
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Race Realists posted:http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/15/world/europe/sweden-nazi-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 The comments on that article are something else, but this one stood out the most: quote:France was fine before immigrants came. Sweden had 0% crime and an amazing economy, then muslims came and started raping/stealing/murdering in obscene #'s, that's why ''neo-nazism'' is rising, aka anti-illegal immigrant/muslims. Muslims are mostly violent people, it's not bigotry to hate a religion and culture that endorses violence. unless you think bigotry is wrong, then hating nazis would make you a bigot. don't you just love double standards? Immigrants in Sweden have ruined Sweden. When Sweden was a homogenous white population it was perfect, and it's getting ruined by the ''asylum-seekers'' aka muslim sharia-law terrorist cells What loving world is this nut living in? 0% crime?
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Dec 16, 2013 07:45
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TheIllestVillain posted:The comments on that article are something else, but this one stood out the most: quote:then muslims came and started raping/stealing/murdering in obscene #'s, [citation needed]
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Dec 16, 2013 09:37
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TheIllestVillain posted:The comments on that article are something else, but this one stood out the most: Right off the bat "France was fine before immigrants came" oh that must be a long rear end time ago considering the continuous waves of immigration since at least the 19th century.
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Dec 16, 2013 11:20
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France was fine before heretics came. The Holy Roman Empire had 0% crime and an amazing economy, then protestants came and started raping/stealing/murdering in obscene #'s, that's why ''religious repression'' is rising, aka anti-heresy/protestantism. Protestants are mostly violent people, it's not bigotry to hate a religion and culture that endorses violence. unless you think bigotry is wrong, then hating judas iscariot would make you a bigot. don't you just love double standards? Protestants in HRE have ruined HRE. When the Holy Roman Empire was a homogenous catholic population it was perfect, and it's getting ruined by the ''dissenters'' aka Huguenot terrorist cells
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Dec 16, 2013 11:40
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Edit: Never mind.
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Dec 16, 2013 12:17
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quote:unless you think bigotry is wrong, then hating nazis would make you a bigot. don't you just love double standards? Reverse-racism: not a uniquely American phenomenon.
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Dec 16, 2013 16:24
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Maybe emboldened by the failed attempt in Sweden (masochists, those nazis!), neo-nazi goons attacked a demo here in Denmark last week, 28 got arrested and the rest fled after a firm response.
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Dec 16, 2013 16:32
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One of them even peed his pants  
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Dec 17, 2013 02:07
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Pretty sure that neo-fascists stands for a disproportionate number of crimes / hardcore criminals in Sweden. Of course they never get tagged with the terrorist label even when the police are pulling in truckloads with illegal weapons and explosives from their discovered stashes and finds plans for violent revolution/coups/random sprees of violence 
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Dec 17, 2013 19:50
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ekuNNN posted:One of them even peed his pants I'm the fetal alcohol syndrome.
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Dec 17, 2013 20:08
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Tias posted:Maybe emboldened by the failed attempt in Sweden (masochists, those nazis!), neo-nazi goons attacked a demo here in Denmark last week, 28 got arrested and the rest fled after a firm response. Yo Tias I'm living in the Copenhagen area these days, any tips on a good group I could join up with? I was thinking of just searching for something online, but I reckon you know the scene, so...
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Dec 17, 2013 20:25
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Certainly. I'm with Libertære Socialister, the anarchist-communist federation in Denmark - http://libsoc.dk . For dedicated antifascism, you may want to hook up with our Antifascist Action, but they're sort of a closed group - http://www.antifa.dk
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Dec 27, 2013 16:01
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AFA and ARA have always been difficult groups to just get involved with, but there's pretty good reasons for that.
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Dec 28, 2013 06:44
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V. Illych L. posted:The kicker, of course, is that basically nobody in Paris or its environs actually votes FN, so it's more the idea of it all that's driving things. I posted this somewhere else too recently, but: fascism is an aesthetic rather than a political stance, akin in functioning to psychosis, not a product of rationality. Like the removal of the Roma shows, it is basically an impulse to retreat into an aesthetic world in which problems needn't be faced, scaffolded by rationalizations and strange impulsive emotions. The things fascism demands are not specific to any situation, nor intent on "solving" anything, but are always whatever matches the aesthetic stance best. In other words, fascists always want whatever makes themselves seem the most masculine (of course, in caricature), most harsh and unforgiving and most powerful. In practice this of course amounts to always pursuing the most evil course possible. Nazism was of course the ultimate aesthetic movement. The question is whether or not authentic Leftism ought to be itself aesthetic, or purely rational.
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Dec 28, 2013 08:19
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Pope Guilty posted:AFA and ARA have always been difficult groups to just get involved with, but there's pretty good reasons for that. Why? Fear of cop/Nazi infiltration?
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Dec 28, 2013 08:26
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Shibawanko posted:The question is whether or not authentic Leftism ought to be itself aesthetic, or purely rational. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfZJgVz-ns8
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Dec 28, 2013 11:27
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Why? Fear of cop/Nazi infiltration? I guess you want to screen for genuine unstable psychos, too.
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Dec 28, 2013 12:26
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Shibawanko posted:I posted this somewhere else too recently, but: fascism is an aesthetic rather than a political stance, akin in functioning to psychosis, not a product of rationality. Like the removal of the Roma shows, it is basically an impulse to retreat into an aesthetic world in which problems needn't be faced, scaffolded by rationalizations and strange impulsive emotions. The things fascism demands are not specific to any situation, nor intent on "solving" anything, but are always whatever matches the aesthetic stance best. In other words, fascists always want whatever makes themselves seem the most masculine (of course, in caricature), most harsh and unforgiving and most powerful. In practice this of course amounts to always pursuing the most evil course possible. I'd say it is a (dangerous) political movement, with fanatical nationalism at its core. Its ideology is obviously not rational or internally consistent but ideologies that meet those criteria are rare.
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Dec 28, 2013 18:49
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Dusz posted:I'd say it is a (dangerous) political movement, with fanatical nationalism at its core. Its ideology is obviously not rational or internally consistent but ideologies that meet those criteria are rare. Well it needn't even be nationalism, it can be any imagined community (like "aryans"), nationalism at least has the intent of improving things for whatever nation it favors, fascism is pathologically self-destructive. Nationalism is just an aspect it tends to materialize into, but it isn't what makes it tick. I would distinguish fascism in particular from other inconsistent ideologies like neoliberalism in that in the case of the latter, it's conceivable that someone is simply duped into it through false information, stupidity or whatever. It's possible to just be a dumb Economist reader and really believe that the things it claims will change things for the better, although it still requires disavowal (of poverty, of injustice and so forth) in order to function as an ideology. Fascism is the active pursuit of that disavowal.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:29
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Shibawanko posted:Well it needn't even be nationalism, it can be any imagined community (like "aryans"), nationalism at least has the intent of improving things for whatever nation it favors, fascism is pathologically self-destructive. Nationalism is just an aspect it tends to materialize into, but it isn't what makes it tick. I would seriously question whether there are any fully consistent ideologies. There may be something to your point about what makes fascism unique, although it can't be applied to all soi-disant fascists.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:55
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Silver2195 posted:There may be something to your point about what makes fascism unique, although it can't be applied to all soi-disant fascists. What makes fascism unique, is that it's financed by people who claim not to be fascists. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
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Dec 29, 2013 03:16
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cakeordeath posted:What makes fascism unique, is that it's financed by people who claim not to be fascists. I actually don't think that's particularly unique. Someone who lives where a particular ideology is unpopular or weak secretly funding efforts to increase its power or popularity elsewhere isn't particularly specific to fascism. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 03:35
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Silver2195 posted:I actually don't think that's particularly unique. You're right, I meant hypocritical.
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Dec 29, 2013 03:37
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cakeordeath posted:What makes fascism unique, is that it's financed by people who claim not to be fascists.
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Dec 29, 2013 03:39
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Install Windows posted:That does not make it unique as an ideology, unless you're naive as all creation. I will not be a part of a licensed botnet.
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Dec 29, 2013 03:54
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Shibawanko posted:Well it needn't even be nationalism, it can be any imagined community (like "aryans"), nationalism at least has the intent of improving things for whatever nation it favors, fascism is pathologically self-destructive. Nationalism is just an aspect it tends to materialize into, but it isn't what makes it tick. I think this explanation isn't very accurate - fascists aren't that complicated or so different from other human beings. I do think that the ideology came first and the pathology second, even when it comes to fascist leaders. If you read about Hitler you get the impression that while the guy was troubled and horribly isolated, he was never a sociopath. You get the idea he was a dark visionary - a guy who was completely taken over by his toxic fantasy of German imperial revival. He was fanatical even for a fascist - if he got the idea that something was an "existential danger" to his German Reich (as he did with Jews and Bolsheviks), there was no barrier of humanity or morality that he wouldn't break to neutralize the "danger". We'll never know for sure but I think he set it upon himself to become as hard as he possibly could as a means to achieve his goal, and that's where the pathology set in. That is also what made him so destructive and dangerous. I think modern fascist leaders aren't really all that different. I think the toxic fantasy of the day is still national (or sometimes religious) revival. The great "existential threat" for them is now immigrants, Muslims and "cultural Marxism". As for the rank and file, I think a lot of them join fascist movements for the same reason other people join street gangs. In other words, for an atomized poor white guy, they become fascists to be someone and to be a part of something that has power and some influence. As for disavowal, I think fascists primarily disavow the humanity of their "enemies". Dehumanizing other people is really quite easy and can even happen subconsciously against the people we hate. It's much harder to disavow things like injustice and morality. So some top Nazis in the early 1940s were still concerned with the "moral effect" that killing Jews would have on SS soldiers (one of the reasons they switched to gas chambers). It's just that their "morality" no longer extended to the Jews, who in their minds were "subhuman enemies and conspirators", so they could rationalize away everything that was done to them.
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Dec 29, 2013 11:55
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I'd say that what makes fascism unique is the cult of action for action's own sake. Everything else kinda stems from the axiom that action is a moral good in itself. It's a very dangerous idea because it is really attractive to disenfranchised people who feel powerless and downtrodden and there really isn't any counterargument against it besides disagreeing with the axiom itself (and that rarely convinces the fash). Take nationalism, for example. The regular ol' Jingoist may think that his country is the best thing on God's green earth, which typically leads to a lot of bad stuff on the societal level, but for the individual it can stay as a sort of passive belief that he might argue for or vote for politicians who share that view. Not so for the ideological fascist, his ideology rejects such effeminate ideas as debate, democracy and stopping to consider any moral aspects of his actions, instead it tells him that he as a man must go out and take action and drat any consequences. Same with ideas like cultural marxism and poo poo like that. The conservative may also think that the left are poisoning our pure culture, but mix in fascism and it becomes much more likely to create someone like, say, Breivik. Here we also need to make the distinction between the ideological fascist and the rank-and-file street thug. Of course the latter are directed by the former, but their motivations for joining the fash are different and thus the ways of dealing with them also differ somewhat.
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Dec 29, 2013 12:14
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Cerebral Bore posted:I'd say that what makes fascism unique is the cult of action for action's own sake. Everything else kinda stems from the axiom that action is a moral good in itself. It's a very dangerous idea because it is really attractive to disenfranchised people who feel powerless and downtrodden and there really isn't any counterargument against it besides disagreeing with the axiom itself (and that rarely convinces the fash). I agree. However, I think their worship of action comes from their exaggerated vigilance about supposed "existential threats". I think that's what has happened with fascists and Islam for example. They get it in their head (through the influence of society and media) that Islam is a threat, they pick out factoids (a Muslim threw a rock at a white guy!) and some alarmist theories ("Eurabia") to put together an ideology. They then come to think that Islam is an existential threat and resolve to become hard and vigilant over the supposed "life-or-death" issue.
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Dec 29, 2013 12:26
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Dusz posted:I agree. However, I think their worship of action comes from their exaggerated vigilance about supposed "existential threats". I think that's what has happened with fascists and Islam for example. They get it in their head (through the influence of society and media) that Islam is a threat, they pick out factoids (a Muslim threw a rock at a white guy!) and some alarmist theories ("Eurabia") to put together an ideology. They then come to think that Islam is an existential threat and resolve to become hard and vigilant over the supposed "life-or-death" issue. Well that's true, but the "threat" always originates within some sort of inner anxiety, the threat is a projection of the fascist's psychotic universe ("psychotic" in the sense of having its own laws, cut off from anything that might contravene them). For example, the fear of Islam I think stems from the abhorrence of self-sacrifice. In our society, we are expected to be pragmatic, "wise", accommodating and in pursuit of "happiness". Islam - Islam after all means "surrender", surrender to an ideal manifest in Allah, idealizing self-sacrifice and authentic belief - is a kind of antithesis to late capitalist ideology. When Arab Spring revolutionaries chant "Allah akbar" in a firefight, they mean something like "our ideal will prevail over the material, military threat that we face now", or "God is greater than our enemies", or more succinctly, "mind over matter". Fascists are insecure about their position in the world and instead of translating this insecurity into a desire to actually change the world, they project it violently outward towards others who represent their own perceived failings. In other words, they are called upon by society to acquiesce with capitalism (even though this is for many an impossible demand) and perceive their own unconscious desire to idealistically change the source of this demand as the cause of their failings, as an inability to fully identify with the demands of the Big Other. Muslims unconsciously remind them of their own desire to fight their frustrations, which is why they perceive them as so threatening. This is how fascism is essentially an effort to mimic change without changing anything. So I don't think that fascists are different from others in some essentialist way, but that fascism represents something like psychosis, rather than simply being another bad ideology (which, by this analogy, would be more like neuroses). The goal of Hitler was not to harden himself against threats, but to destroy the threat he perceived within himself, as symbolized by the image of Jews, which is what made him such a weakling.
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Dec 29, 2013 13:46
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Shibawanko posted:Well that's true, but the "threat" always originates within some sort of inner anxiety, the threat is a projection of the fascist's psychotic universe ("psychotic" in the sense of having its own laws, cut off from anything that might contravene them). For example, the fear of Islam I think stems from the abhorrence of self-sacrifice. Your view is interesting but it is just too complicated to match reality. I doubt fascists know their enemies on such an intimate level. Bigots aren't really known for their insight about the target of their bigotry. I do think that people can become fascists just by thinking, sort of the same way some D&D posters have thought their way out of their former simplistic worldviews. Your previous worldview (simplistic liberalism for some D&D posters, naive nationalism/"conservatism" for protofascists) is mortally challenged and revealed to contradict itself and reality. You become disillusioned and then over time you cross over to some other side, often the side that presented the mortal challenge. This doesn't have to be a "better or more moral" side and so, can be something like fascism as well. Dusz fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 14:29
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Dusz posted:Your view is interesting but it is just too complicated to match reality. I doubt fascists know their enemies on such an intimate level. Bigots aren't really known for their insight about the target of their bigotry. Well the way I imagine it, it doesn't require any conscious insight for the average person. A fascist leader such as Hitler or Wilders or Hashimoto articulates this latent anxiety of many people in a certain way which results in fascism (and such leaders are usually backed up by more "philosophical" fascists such as Goebbles for Hitler or Bosma for Wilders who are closer to being self-aware fascists, and therefore maybe even more deplorable than the charismatic leader himself). The rank and file just perceive this articulation as pleasant, as somehow "tickling" their feelgood sense of belonging and re-absorption into a whole that threatens to reject them (though I think at some level they remain aware of what atrocious slugs they have become, and the price of their belonging which is inflicted on whatever group they attack as part of their psychosis, and are therefore culpable for what they do). The reason I insist on putting it in this way is that something just strikes me as very sickening about fascism, especially in the countries in which I live, that makes me doubt that it's just an extension of thought. There must be something fundamentally different about becoming a fascist compared to any other change of heart, or it just doesn't make sense to me.
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Dec 30, 2013 04:15
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Shibawanko posted:The reason I insist on putting it in this way is that something just strikes me as very sickening about fascism, especially in the countries in which I live, that makes me doubt that it's just an extension of thought. You live in the Netherlands and Japan, right?
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Dec 30, 2013 06:12
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