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So when do I get off the train of horseshit that is SMT IV. I keep wiping to inane bullshit that is completely beyond my control, granted this is pretty common with some SMT titles but its never been more blatant than now. I'm on my 7th game over so far thanks to random crits. I especially liked Jonathan hitting a loving Wendigo with Bufu, nice job rear end in a top hat, now he's temporarily stronger and wiped out 2 people thanks to his crits.  The fact that I need to reset so I don't have to sit through Charon's bullshit speech is also quite grating. I'm only in Naraku still so I ask, does this get better? Is this the kind off poo poo I can expect through out the entire game? Cause if it is I'll just drop it right now.
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Dec 28, 2013 19:22
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You will die less when you have a wider ranger of demons and skills to use in different situations. Your allies are always going to be idiots though. It gets easier after Naruku. Edit: Or really, by the end of Naruku even. It's mostly just getting a full party and getting around the first two or three floors that is rough.
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Dec 28, 2013 19:27
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Once you get out of Naraku you will wipe substantially less.
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Dec 28, 2013 19:28
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Alteisen posted:So when do I get off the train of horseshit that is SMT IV. The bad news is, you end up dealing with exactly this level of bullshit until you are past Naraku. I don't exactly know where you are beyond the Wendigo fight but basically: however long it takes you to get to floor 5, then there is a boss with exactly this problem, then about 40 minutes later a second boss with exactly this problem again. Once you are past that the game opens up a little bit, you start getting more demons with buff/debuff abilities and the fights in general get a bit more balanced. You will, on occasion, run into bullshit deaths for the rest of the game (and Naraku is straight up the first 5% of the game lets make that clear) but at a rate no higher than you'd see in, say, Nocturne or P3/P4. It will make things easier on you (easier, mind, not in any way easy) if as you continue through to the bad bosses you keep an eye on the following: -Giving Bufu to as many demons as you can manage -Giving Rakukaja to as many demons as you can manage -Giving Zan to a few demons -Finding demons with resistance or immunity to Zio and Gun attacks Of course that's little comfort when you're smack dab in the Hot Garbage section of SMT4. I've played the game straight through 3-4 times and I stand by a conclusion I made way back in my third hour of play, which is that the changes to the SMT combat system in SMT4 are actually pretty bad and counterproductive compared to Nocturne. At the very beginning of the game they decided to ramp up the difficulty when you don't yet have the gameplay tools to counter it (you run into that first boss I mentioned with no debuffs at all, for instance), and are left to the mercies of RNG. It's a horrendous way to run an intro.
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Dec 28, 2013 19:34
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Alteisen posted:So when do I get off the train of horseshit that is SMT IV. Why not play on easy mode? It's about as difficult as "normal" mode is on most other RPG's. Just die twice and then you should have the option to.
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Dec 28, 2013 19:41
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Alteisen posted:So when do I get off the train of horseshit that is SMT IV. I haven't beaten the game yet, but I have gotten considerably past this section. I've found that battles in this game go fast even the boss ones. Essentially you wipe them out or they wipe you out. I have dudes in the late 30's but a level 20 dude with mazan hitting a force weakness will wipe out around 1/3 HP on my other demons, so you still have to keep on your toes. However, on the flipside I've found that if Im around or a few levels lower than a boss, and I get their weakness on everyone, I can get rid of them in like 3-4 rounds with some buffing thrown in. I'm pretty sure this game has the quickest boss clears in series history
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Dec 28, 2013 20:49
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Alteisen posted:The fact that I need to reset so I don't have to sit through Charon's bullshit speech is also quite grating. He skips it after the first time you sit through it, you know.
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Dec 28, 2013 20:54
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Captain Mog posted:Why not play on easy mode? It's about as difficult as "normal" mode is on most other RPG's. Just die twice and then you should have the option to. Because I shouldn't have to, I've played most SMT games on normal difficulty is, least the ones that allow it and never had any trouble. quote:He skips it after the first time you sit through it, you know. I know, I'd still rather have a traditional game over screen. Anyway I got past the fight, had like 3 demons left, twice I opened doors and there was a random encounter directly below my feet, I couldn't get away, I ended up wiping again in the room that leads out of Naraku. So I'm just gonna cut my losses here and drop it, perhaps it does get better later on but I don't care to find out of it does and I'm to old to be getting mad at videogames. I was hoping Devil Survivor 2 was an isolated incident in regards to horrid game design and cheap horseshit everywhere, but it seems Atlus forgot how to make a challenging game and just fills them with arbitrary challenge now. Here's hoping Persona Q doesn't fall into this trap, I have faith in the EO team, they know how to make things challenging at least without resorting to RNG fuckery.
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Dec 28, 2013 23:10
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Alteisen posted:
No offense, but if you insist on playing the game like it's previous entries in the series even though it's not I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for you. Atlus has put in tons of ways to offset the increased challenge of the game. You can save anywhere so you lose way less time to random bullshit than in previous games and you never lose useful progress like recruiting a demon if you're careful about saving. You can pay money to come back from a wipe. And if you wipe enough you can lower the difficulty. Atlus has basically bent over backwards to try and make sure that the game could be fun even for easily frustrated people like you. If you're too proud to take advantage of any of those things than that's fine but it's not really fair to blame that on Atlus is it?
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Dec 29, 2013 00:36
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Seriously, SMT IV isn't THAT hard. Save before each encounter, and save after you recruit demons. Bam, 90% of the opening difficulty is gone once you get a full team and can begin playing SMT proper. Yes, you can get your poo poo wrecked by demons really easily. Guess what? That goes both ways. No Vitality stat means it's just as easy for you to wipe them before they even get a turn as it is for them to do the same to you.
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Dec 29, 2013 01:36
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fount of knowledge posted:For what it's worth I beat FES and The Answer on hard difficulty and had a really fun time, then when I tried to play P3P I was turned off for the exact reason you stated. Jumping in to say that this has basically been my experience too, P3P just made me feel way too far removed from the proceedings of the story compared to my experience with FES. It really is a shame too, because I can totally sympathize with people who say the female route is more fun - I don't have as big a hateboner for the way the male MC's social links are handled as some people seem to, but in a lot of ways the female MC is much more enjoyable to play as. The gameplay tweaks definitely aren't unwelcome either, although I'd hardly call 'em dealbreakers. My characters never really got tired in Tartarus before I got tired of dungeoneering and wanted back to the social stuff, so that was never an issue for me. I guess you can sit on your thumbs and hope that someday a truly "definitive" version of P3 will be released if you want, but I wouldn't hold out hope.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:14
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Defend lovely game design all you want.  I received a lot of games on Christmas and I'm not gonna waste my time on one that has left a terrible impression in the hours I put into it.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:22
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Alteisen posted:Defend lovely game design all you want. It really isn't bad design, aside from maybe a few unlucky criticals (and the unarguably stupid thing about randomized partners in battle.). If you're getting wiped that often you really need to change your equipment/demons or start buffing/debuffing more. The game is really geared in the player's favor because levels matter so little to if you win/lose. It's all about your preparation. It's the kind of game where you can wreck Level 75 guys at level 15 if you plan things out properly. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 02:25
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Alteisen posted:Defend lovely game design all you want. No one's saying that you have to like the game, much less force yourself to play it, but announcing to everybody else that it's just "bad game design" is kinda lame dude.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:27
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Alteisen posted:Defend lovely game design all you want. Just because it's left a bad impression on you doesn't mean it's bad game design. The game is fair, you just have to learn how to use the tools it gives you. The thing is, you don't have many tools in the beginning, which I will agree makes it a bit tough, but a lot of RPGs don't give you very many options at the start anyway. These games get exponentially easier once you have more tools at your disposal, but until then, make the best of what you've got and adapt to what's assaulting you. Also save often. You can save wherever the hell you want now. Do that.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:35
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Alteisen posted:Defend lovely game design all you want. Serious question: what would you like Atlus to do? They even have cheat dlc to power level you. But maybe you're just bad at videogames? You mentioned DS2 and that was a game I died three times on and each time it was from doing something stupid or not paying enough attention. You're right, though, there are a lot of other games that will hold your hand and make sure you don't get a boo-boo. Seems like SMT games are not for you but it'd be nice if you didn't tell all the people here the games they enjoy are poorly designed because you can't handle them.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:36
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Alteisen posted:Defend lovely game design all you want. I dunno dude, you're talking about lovely game design but talking about the EO team knowing how to do real difficulty, which apparently means you have not played like half of the EO series because most of them were stupidly easy to accidentally break or just plain easy, and that's coming from someone who loves the series. It's cool if a game isn't for you or anything but it doesn't have to be 'ughhh bullshit lovely Atlus fake challenge poo poo' which you seem to do a lot! It just sounds more like these apparently are not the games for you and that is totally OK.
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Dec 29, 2013 02:49
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I'm doing fine so far in SMTIV myself. I got one game over because the armor I had was weak to a boss but other than that it's been pretty forgiving, all things considered. I'm also kind of a wuss and jump in and out of Naraku constantly to heal up and recruit more and more demons. Would it be OK to basically ignore Dexterity if I'm willing to put gun skills on my demons and none on my MC? I've been running with a 2:1 ratio between Magic and Strength/Agility/Luck thus far, with Dexterity being the odd man out.
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Dec 30, 2013 15:12
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Apparently Strength is a bad choice. Dexterity is much better for physical skills.
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Dec 30, 2013 15:23
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I think Strength really only affects your normal attack. Dexterity affects both Phys and Gun skills.
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Dec 30, 2013 15:31
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That's pretty much exactly what I was going for. I don't currently plan to take on any Phys/Gun skills, as this was going to be a Magic build. But I didn't want my normal attack to be completely pathetic, especially for auto-battles. But that said I'm only in my high teens so I could probably salvage it if I started to put more points into it now. For a Magic-focused build, would I have any reason to keep up Phys/Gun skills as well?
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Dec 30, 2013 15:35
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Nate RFB posted:That's pretty much exactly what I was going for. I don't currently plan to take on any Phys/Gun skills, as this was going to be a Magic build. But I didn't want my normal attack to be completely pathetic, especially for auto-battles. If you're doing a magic build, don't even bother putting points in STR past the early levels. There's no harm in having some now so you can attack, but eventually you will get to the point where you exclusively use magic and don't even use autoattacks. As people mentioned in this one ALL physical skills work off of DEX more than STR, so if you're going to use physical you want dex over STR anyway, since eventually your normal attack can't keep up with the skills you can get. As physical I went Dex/Agi/Luck, I think as magic you go Mag/Agi? Someone else will have to chime in with the best build for them, I know Luck isn't as useful because magic can't crit.
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Dec 30, 2013 16:03
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:If you're doing a magic build, don't even bother putting points in STR past the early levels. There's no harm in having some now so you can attack, but eventually you will get to the point where you exclusively use magic and don't even use autoattacks. Luck is still really useful and probably more useful than Agi, just because of the smirk rate increase, not to mention all the other benefits Luck gives over Agi.
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Dec 30, 2013 16:07
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ChaosArgate posted:Just because it's left a bad impression on you doesn't mean it's bad game design. The game is fair, you just have to learn how to use the tools it gives you. The thing is, you don't have many tools in the beginning, which I will agree makes it a bit tough, but a lot of RPGs don't give you very many options at the start anyway. These games get exponentially easier once you have more tools at your disposal, but until then, make the best of what you've got and adapt to what's assaulting you. Also save often. You can save wherever the hell you want now. Do that. This is almost the perfect example of why it's unfair. Also, "a lot of RPGs" is vague as hell and I'm pretty sure most of them are not Megaten. Everything until you pass the bottom of Naraku boils down to eventually having the best possible demon setup and knowing the best possible strategy and doing fights effectively and hoping the game doesn't spawn an enemy where you can't strike to avoid an ambush or hoping Minotaur doesn't land a random crit, smirk, and wipe your party. That's the worst one there: there is literally nothing you can do in that situation and you progress only when the game decides that you can. That's horrible design. I'm not disputing the fact that SMT4 does get much better and comes into it's own almost immediately after you're out of Naraku (hell, the massive SMT4 topic we have is evidence enough) but that does not change anything about the fact that those first few hours, frankly, are pretty bad. Certainly worse than any other megaten's intro, and it should be recognized as such whenever possible by as many people possible so the people making an eventual SMT5 clue into what was done wrong. I very nearly put the game down after 30 minutes of losing to Minotaur and I'm not going to fault anyone who decided they couldn't deal with that.
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Dec 30, 2013 16:20
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I really didn't find the beginning to be all THAT hard. Sure I died a lot, but you can save anywhere anytime so it didn't matter too much.
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Dec 30, 2013 16:28
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Worldwide Panther posted:Luck is still really useful and probably more useful than Agi, just because of the smirk rate increase, not to mention all the other benefits Luck gives over Agi. You do apparently need a minimun amount of agi to not be missing all the time, though. Luck also has an impact on demon negotiation, as well as other things. So you can't really completely ignore either one. I've been going 3,1,1 mag agi luck, but I'm still pretty early in so we'll see how it goes. I've heard that luck-heavy runs are pretty fun. You can boost your crit rate high enough that if you get a good multi-hitting weapon you're practically guaranteed at least one crit per attack. I might try that out in a new game+. Meiteron posted:I'm not disputing the fact that SMT4 does get much better and comes into it's own almost immediately after you're out of Naraku (hell, the massive SMT4 topic we have is evidence enough) but that does not change anything about the fact that those first few hours, frankly, are pretty bad. Certainly worse than any other megaten's intro, and it should be recognized as such whenever possible by as many people possible so the people making an eventual SMT5 clue into what was done wrong. I very nearly put the game down after 30 minutes of losing to Minotaur and I'm not going to fault anyone who decided they couldn't deal with that. The first time I played Nocturne in the very first hallway you could encounter enemies one of them got a crit on me right away. There were no healing items and no spells so all I could do was watch myself get whittled down the last few hp I had and die. And then I got to do the whole stupid opening part all over again. If it had been SMTIV I at least would have been able to save after all the cutscenes. The bullshit has always been there since the very beginning, people just don't remember those parts of the game because you spend most of your time in the later parts where you have some control over the situation. Joshlemagne fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Dec 30, 2013 |
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Dec 30, 2013 16:28
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In Nocturne you can die on the tutorial battle  And maybe is because I've played every title on the franchise since Nocturne but SMTIV was really easy thanks to its fusion system. To beat the minotaur I just needed to pump all my demons with Bufu and the sucker went down in a couple of turns.
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Dec 30, 2013 16:57
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An amusing thought just occurred to me. In Nocturne, the first big roadblock boss is Matador. In SMTIV, the first big roadblock boss is Minotaur. A bull fighter and a bull, respectively. 
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Dec 30, 2013 17:43
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Alteisen posted:Defend lovely game design all you want. Of all the things to complain about SMTIV and we're talking about the "hard" difficulty? I wish the game was as difficult as it was in Naraku. But complaining about the game so early on for something that can easily be handled, is just ridiculous. Are you one of those typical gaming journos that can't handle any sort of challenge and give up within a hour?
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Dec 30, 2013 20:14
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Meiteron posted:Everything until you pass the bottom of Naraku boils down to eventually having the best possible demon setup and knowing the best possible strategy No it doesn't. I've gone through it three times with different demon setups each time and had no problem. This is the thing. If you're saying this, you're doing something wrong, aside from maybe the occasional unlucky "the enemy goes first" thing. There are countles ways to set up teams to take down every single thing in Naraku and you do not remotely have to use the same demons, the same setup, or the same strategy. I've done it with both physical builds and magic builds and with different demons every time. (I didn't bother with Pele my first time through for example and Pele alone would break the poo poo out of several parts of Naraku.) Just off the top of my head, ways to beat Minotaur: He's vulnerable to Poison. Use Poison Claw to make him lose hilarious amounts of HP a turn. Go onto the defensive and let him wear himself out. Not my favorite strategy since you need to depend on a proc but it works. There's other poison skills as well. Use buffs. You can get various buffs/debuffs from various demons (Angel and Dwarf for example) very easily and there's always a chance of lucky Skill Fusion. Bufu. Bufu everywhere. Spam Bufus. You can get a ton of Bufus off every round if you want. Combine the above! Use Bufus and then use your extra turns to buff. Hit him with poison and then debuff his attack and ride out the storm with media. He's vulnerable to Sick as well I believe so if you can land that on him, watch his stats go down even further. There are probably other ways I'm not even thinking of. Meiteron posted:Certainly worse than any other megaten's intro, and it should be recognized as such whenever possible by as many people possible so the people making an eventual SMT5 clue into what was done wrong. I very nearly put the game down after 30 minutes of losing to Minotaur and I'm not going to fault anyone who decided they couldn't deal with that. It's 'worse' in that it is willing to actually kill you. I'd absolutely prefer a game that is willing to kill you to one where I have to sit through 5-10 hours of game before I can even die to an enemy. If you are lacking tools, fuse or recruit more demons. You have a ton of spells and abilities available to you even ignoring the chance for random skill mutation. If you are really, absolutely, unquestioningly having problems the game unlocks an easy mode for you even. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Dec 30, 2013 |
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Dec 30, 2013 22:17
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So I just picked up a 3DS on a boxing week sale. I bought SMT IV of course, but which of the other 3DS titles are good picks. Keep in mind I never played Devil Survivor and the only SMT games I really got into are the last two Personas and Nocturne.
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Dec 31, 2013 00:20
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Joshlemagne posted:The first time I played Nocturne in the very first hallway you could encounter enemies one of them got a crit on me right away. There were no healing items and no spells so all I could do was watch myself get whittled down the last few hp I had and die. And then I got to do the whole stupid opening part all over again. If it had been SMTIV I at least would have been able to save after all the cutscenes. Actually I just started up a round of Nocturne last night, you definitely get to save before fights start coming up.
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Dec 31, 2013 00:35
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Mokinokaro posted:So I just picked up a 3DS on a boxing week sale. Fire Emblem: Awakening, if only to get ready for the eventual crossover.
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Dec 31, 2013 01:49
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Devil Survivor 2 is pretty close to Persona with an SLink like thing. Its battle system is similar the one used in SMT IV, with the same elements(Zan instead of Garu) and sprites. However, the ever delayed Devil Survivor 2: Break Record will have full voice acting and 3D cutscenes. I'm starting to get the feeling Atlus is building up for a worldwide release of the game with them teasing it on their Holiday Greeting. Devil Survivor Overclocked is also good (especially for  in the eshop right now,) but it doesn't focus on team building as much as 2.Etrian Odyssey is crossing over with Persona, so that might be one to get into for Persona Q. Untold adds a story mode with set characters, IV is cheaper. Soul Hackers and Strange Journey, while SMT titles are different. Both use the older first person view seen in Persona:Revelations and in the case of Soul Hackers, it just reeks of Playstation/Sega Saturn. It takes some adjustment for someone who's played Nocturne or Persona 3/4.
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Dec 31, 2013 02:53
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404GoonNotFound posted:Fire Emblem: Awakening, if only to get ready for the eventual crossover. I actually have that and Etrian IV. Sounds like I should wait on picking up anything else for now. Especially with Bravely Default hitting our shores in Feb. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Dec 31, 2013 |
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Dec 31, 2013 03:03
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Soul Hackers is a good game, get that, and you can get it cheap now days. I had more fun with it then currently going through SMT IV.
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Dec 31, 2013 04:25
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Man, so I only got to play a bit of it, but is Devil Survivor Overclocked worth getting on sale?
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Dec 31, 2013 04:52
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:Man, so I only got to play a bit of it, but is Devil Survivor Overclocked worth getting on sale? Yes. Elaborate answer: Yes, it's a pretty good game. The whole SMT mythos goes surprisingly well with a SRPG gameplay and out of the two Devil Survivor games, the first one (from which Overclocked is a remake of) has, in my opinion, the better story and characters.
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Dec 31, 2013 05:03
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Dehry posted:Devil Survivor 2: Break Record will have full voice acting Just be aware this may not be a good thing. The voice acting in Devil Survivor: Overclocked is almost completely unbearable. It easily turned the worst character in that game to the worst character in that game. E: I'll clarify in case people don't know who I'm talking about : Yuzu.
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Dec 31, 2013 07:05
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PureRok posted:Just be aware this may not be a good thing. The voice acting in Devil Survivor: Overclocked is almost completely unbearable. It easily turned the worst character in that game to the worst character in that game. That's a funny way of spelling "Midori".
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Dec 31, 2013 07:11
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