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organburner posted:Okay, here's a small sample of some exposition. The problem here with your exposition is that it's pretty boring and pointless. You're not directing a movie, you're telling me a story. Don't tell me the layout of the buildings unless it's really important. Give me the RELEVANT details. Are there windows that need to be boarded? Good look out towers? Always be asking yourself: "Why does the reader care?" If your answer is "to set the mood." then BZZZZT, try again. Backstory should be only so I can understand stuff about the characters.
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Dec 27, 2013 23:11
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crabrock posted:The problem here with your exposition is that it's pretty boring and pointless. You're not directing a movie, you're telling me a story. Don't tell me the layout of the buildings unless it's really important. Give me the RELEVANT details. Are there windows that need to be boarded? Good look out towers? Always be asking yourself: "Why does the reader care?" If your answer is "to set the mood." then BZZZZT, try again. Backstory should be only so I can understand stuff about the characters. Thanks man, this is a big help. I honestly have no idea why I write like that, I guess once I start writing I have a really hard time spotting all this stuff. Also now that you mention it most of my my characters so far do cuss a lot  Then again they are policemen in the story and in my experience they do tend to cuss a lot regardless of what the situation calls for  I'll keep this in mind going forward and when doing the revisions. I keep noticing a lot of writing like this as it is but if I start fixing it now I think it'll bog me down and I might stop writing.
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Dec 28, 2013 00:10
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Cussing is A-Ok, but it needs to be more than just a base response. Usually things you're telling the reader by saying "drat" can be better expressed through the characters' actions.
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Dec 28, 2013 01:55
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Another thing is that you're writing in past tense but keep forcing present into it (There's a term for this, but I can't remember it...). If you want your writing to be more immediate, put it in the tense it belongs in. Instead of They kept walking through the deserted streets, use They walked through the deserted streets. Instead of the charred bodies that seemed to be everywhere, use the charred bodies that were everywhere. (okay, that's not really a tense thing, but still. Are there or are there not bodies? Be authoritative.)
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Dec 28, 2013 04:01
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The charred bodies, which were localised to a 20'x15' irregular area on the north side of the street approximately five yards from Nikodemus...
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Dec 28, 2013 05:31
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:The charred bodies, which were localised to a 20'x15' irregular area on the north side of the street approximately five yards from Nikodemus... Hey now! I would never use yards to get exact measurements 
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Dec 28, 2013 09:07
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:The charred bodies, which were localised to a 20'x15' irregular area on the north side of the street approximately five yards from Nikodemus... Another note: less is more. What you want to do with a short piece like that is go over it with a fine tooth comb and of every word ask yourself "what does this add to the story?". If it adds nothing, or a smaller word would do the same job, get out your editing scissors.
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Dec 28, 2013 09:57
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But if I write the story like a play-by-play of a DnD campaign it will be so much easier to follow!
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Dec 28, 2013 11:43
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I've read all the advice in this thread and tried to apply it, and now I've sold my first ever story, to Tincture Journal, to published in their fifth issue. It's a pretty new journal, just finished it's first year. Payment somewhere between $20-$100 AUD. They said they will be in touch in Jan or Feb to discuss edits, but I also submitted the story to a short story contest at my local city newspaper that I really would like to win. That contest contacts the winners in mid-to-late Jan. If I get the email, is it really bad form to back out of the journal?
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Dec 30, 2013 15:58
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At least in genre markets, simultaneous submission is really bad form, and if you're already at the stage of discussing payment then yeah, you should pull your story from the contest ASAP.
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Dec 30, 2013 16:37
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Not discussing payment, that's just the info on their website. I've only received one email saying that I've been accepted and they'll be in touch. And simultaneous submissions are not bad form at all, every market I submit to allows them as long as you tell them. I don't bother with the ones who don't allow that since most likely they'll just say no anyways.
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Dec 30, 2013 16:44
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Huh, that's really weird. No pro-rate science fiction or fantasy market will accept simultaneous submissions for short stories (novels are a totally different matter). If you're working in another genre, or outside of pro markets, things are probably completely different and I don't have any useful advice. But in SF/F your only recourse right now would be to withdraw from the contest.
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Dec 30, 2013 19:46
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blue squares posted:Not discussing payment, that's just the info on their website. I've only received one email saying that I've been accepted and they'll be in touch. And simultaneous submissions are not bad form at all, every market I submit to allows them as long as you tell them. I don't bother with the ones who don't allow that since most likely they'll just say no anyways. I'm kinda mystified by your statement: "markets that don't allow simultaneous submissions aren't worth submitting to because they'll likely say no anyways." Many pro rated markets, hell many paying markets in general, specifically disallow simultaneous submissions so I don't know why you'd make that kind of broad claim. Also understand that even if they allow sim submissions. If they accept you and then you pull out weeks after the acceptance, then there is still a good chance you are gonna burn a bridge with that venue (It all depends on the temperament of the editors involved at any rate). You'll have to decide for yourself whether that is risk that you are willing to take or not. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Dec 30, 2013 |
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Dec 30, 2013 20:10
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Would anyone be interested in beta-reading a 7000 word urban fantasy short story? I'm happy to return the favour and critique something in return.
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Dec 31, 2013 01:38
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Congrats, blue squares!
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Dec 31, 2013 01:45
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SuBeCo posted:Would anyone be interested in beta-reading a 7000 word urban fantasy short story? I'm happy to return the favour and critique something in return. Maybe link it as a Gdoc with comments enabled?
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Dec 31, 2013 04:33
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blue squares posted:Not discussing payment, that's just the info on their website. I've only received one email saying that I've been accepted and they'll be in touch. And simultaneous submissions are not bad form at all, every market I submit to allows them as long as you tell them. I don't bother with the ones who don't allow that since most likely they'll just say no anyways. Don't ditch the sure thing for a contest. If they accepted the story, don't pull it out. That's really dumb to do when you have no guarantee of winning this contest.
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Dec 31, 2013 04:53
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It's not even a matter of sure thing vs. chance - under normal publishing etiquette (and, again, this may be an exception outside my experience...) you are now more or less obliged to go forward with the publication and to withdraw from the contest immediately.
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Dec 31, 2013 05:35
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He clearly doesn't give a poo poo about etiquette so I put it in terms he might understand.
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Dec 31, 2013 15:01
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Yeah fair enough. I hope we're not all coming off as assholes, but every editor I've talked to considers this a huge problem so I don't want your first sale to cause you trouble down the road.
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Dec 31, 2013 21:41
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General Battuta posted:Yeah fair enough. I hope we're not all coming off as assholes, but every editor I've talked to considers this a huge problem so I don't want your first sale to cause you trouble down the road. Yeah sim sub to markets that don't allow sim subs is a problem and fairly common and will get you burned. But in this case, Tincture allows sim subs so that isn't an issue. I kinda doubt the newspaper contest also allows sim subs but whatever. They might not like it but it probably wouldn't burn him too much if he had pulled out upon acceptance since he was upfront that it was a sim submission. Since their guidelines allow for it, they'd have to expect that they would get beaten to the punch from time to time. The problem is, he wants to make this journal think they have his story for a month with the understanding that they are getting exclusive first publication rights once it's published. He might even begin the editing process if that happens to start before the contest results are released (since the timelines overlap and it's possible the judging could get delayed for whatever reason). His plan is to then pull out immediately if he happens to win the contest and pretend nothing happened if he doesn't win. This is not a sure thing vs chance scenario, he wants the best of both worlds and to get this he is going to string this journal along for at least a month. It would be like if they accepted your story, then a month later told you that never mind we don't want it, we found someone else, okay, bye. Frankly we've been nice about it because that is clearly a dick thing to do. But truth of the matter is, its a small publication that is building itself up. The chance of them becoming super influential isn't great, could happen but it is not likely. So the only personal risk he is taking is not being able to submit to this one small venue. For sure they will remember him though, and he will burn that bridge to a crisp. But there are plenty of other venues out there to submit to. So unless the editors at Tincture get picked up by a bunch of major magazines, publishing houses,etc it probably wont provide that much of a barrier for his future career as a writer. Which I guess is what he's asking. Still a dick move though.
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Dec 31, 2013 23:06
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I'm not going to be pulling out. Contest would have been great but I'm going to be professional here. Thanks, guys.
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Jan 1, 2014 00:22
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A friend of mine finished his third round of revisions and asked for friends to beta-read his book. We've traded manuscripts and I'm reading his. It's an eye-opening experience to deconstruct someone else's story, pick apart grammar, character behaviors, general writing rules, etc. I can't recommend it enough for any person sitting on their own MS dreading the next round of revisions, (like me. I am doing almost anything to NOT go back and revise/re-write my book). As I pick apart their hard work, (and I mean NITPICKY poo poo like, said Nancy vs. Nancy said. I finally googled it to make a point and discovered I was totally full of poo poo on that one. I swear I thought Said Nancy was one of those big no-no's only lovely writers did) it's bringing to light a lot of problems in my MS. It's a lot easier finding flaws in somebody else's effort, I'm not emotionally attached to it. ALSO - I am absolutely going to go back through and delete probably half of my notes to him. He's a friend, and there's a difference between a mistake and a writing preference. If he wants to avoid using "said", there's no rule against it I suppose. It's just a whole lot of bedazzled rhinestones after awhile, each one popping out distracting me from the story, but hey, that's his choice. Long story short - hey new writer, are you done with your MS but don't want to start revisions? Go read somebody else's fledgling manuscript and provide feedback.
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Jan 2, 2014 19:19
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I like as brutal as possible critique. At least then I don't have to worry about someone holding back. Regarding the "said Nancy" and "Nancy said" thing. I've heard the same thing. I can't remember which writing book pointed it out, but I agree with you. It wasn't so much that "said Nancy" is for lovely writers, but it's something you only encounter in young adult or children's literature. So, I'd say something like "this is fine for kids books but It sounds kinda childish and passive." Nitpicky things are usually the most interesting feedback anyway. Sure, overall and grand critiques are important, but the details are too. Especially if they come off in a way the author doesn't intend. Like, is it nitpicky if you say "they can't be eating potatoes before the 16th century because they weren't in the old world yet"? I guess it depends. ziasquinn fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jan 2, 2014 |
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Jan 2, 2014 19:30
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magnificent7 posted:If he wants to avoid using "said", there's no rule against it I suppose. It's just a whole lot of bedazzled rhinestones after awhile, each one popping out distracting me from the story, but hey, that's his choice. I strongly disagree with this. Give him your opinion, which on this is completely correct (that he should not be avoiding using 'said.') Tell him all the mistakes you see him making, then it's his choice to either follow or ignore them. Don't neglect to mention a change saying that it's "his choice;" he may not even be aware he's doing something that is bad, and until you point it out he has no choice at all.
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Jan 2, 2014 20:38
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Yeah, agreed. 'Said bookisms' are one of the most commonly recognized and mocked marks of bad writing.
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Jan 2, 2014 21:42
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I flipped through my copy of the Chicago Manual of Style and saw no mention of how to use "said." If it's not in the publisher's house style, it's up to the author to decide on how dialogue is tagged - if at all.
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Jan 2, 2014 22:56
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FouRPlaY posted:I flipped through my copy of the Chicago Manual of Style and saw no mention of how to use "said." If it's not in the publisher's house style, it's up to the author to decide on how dialogue is tagged - if at all. Sure, but it's perfectly compliant with the Chicago Manual of Style to tag your dialogue like this: "'Let's build a fort,' he said defensively." Or: "'Take cover', the burly detective growled gruffly. 'I can't see where they are!' his lissome companion shrieked.'" Good writing, including dialogue tags, goes well beyond basic style and grammar. It's up to the author to decide on how their dialogue's tagged - but not all those decisions are good.
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Jan 2, 2014 23:06
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"Said Mary" versus "Mary said" isn't as critical as you're making out. Some people recommend switching it up, and some say never ever switch it up, and some say never use said (name). There's no rule, just preference. As long as it fits the flow it's fine. At a quick glance at books on hand, Rainbows End, the Harry Potter books and Margaret Atwood use "(name) said" and "said (name)" interchangeably, the Discworld books use "said (name)" almost completely, P. D. James uses the construction of (Name) said: "(Dialogue).", and The Windup Girl uses mostly "(name) said" but very occasionally the other. For my own sake, unless it's something really odd like "said I", I can't say I've ever paid much attention to a book using one over the other.
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Jan 2, 2014 23:18
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General Battuta posted:Yeah, agreed. 'Said bookisms' are one of the most commonly recognized and mocked marks of bad writing. I realize this is what people say, but I'm always confused as to how this became such a hard and fast rule. I mean, every single book I've got on my bookshelf uses words other than "said" for dialogue tags, though it's only a few times every several pages or so. And I sure as hell don't read THAT much YA. Is it like every other rule: don't overdo it? I wonder if people don't even see the tags other than 'said' when they're done well, and so this rule came about that just seems weird upon further examination of a lot of published work. Your Dead Gay Son posted:Regarding the "said Nancy" and "Nancy said" thing. I had a hard time remembering which of these was "correct" until someone pointed out to me that if you replace the proper noun with a pronoun, it becomes immediately obvious which one is right. "I have been waiting for you," he said. vs. "I have been waiting for you," said he. The second one sounds like some kind of creepy romance novel.
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Jan 2, 2014 23:20
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Ohhh we're talking specifically about the ordering. I feel like I went off a bit strong, then, as yeah, that's clearly more of a matter of personal style.Nika posted:I realize this is what people say, but I'm always confused as to how this became such a hard and fast rule. I mean, every single book I've got on my bookshelf uses words other than "said" for dialogue tags, though it's only a few times every several pages or so. And I sure as hell don't read THAT much YA. This is an example of people following the rule. If they weren't following the rule, believe me, you'd notice 
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Jan 2, 2014 23:21
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Is it "chicken and chips" or "chips and chicken"? "X said", "said X", I'm not sure it even matters. If it's something you feel strongly about, I think you might need a relaxing weekend.
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Jan 2, 2014 23:26
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I think I'm going to approach him with it, and ask him to refer to his favorite authors, or books. It's absolutely a preference thing. If his favorite books are packed with it, then my opinion carries no weight, regardless what current writing books are saying. The concept of "show don't tell" was recently called out as old and out of date. poo poo changes. Nothing wrong with that. But drat. It's like he's got the thesaurus open to "SAID" and is going hog-wild. And no - I don't feel adamant about any of it at the end of the day unless there's just some hard, fast rule against it. But the guy is a copywriter for a living, so I'd want to believe he's pretty well-versed in The Elements of Style. (which I am clearly not). magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Jan 2, 2014 |
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Jan 2, 2014 23:34
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magnificent7 posted:I think I'm going to approach him with it, and ask him to refer to his favorite authors, or books. This is not a preference thing, it's just bad writing. Dropping synonyms for 'said' constantly is certainly Incorrect. On the other hand the issue of 'Character said' vs. 'said Character' is much less clear-cut, as far as I know. You should (maybe) not say this directly to him, but if he ever goes to a workshop or speaks to a professional editor he'll hear the habit of replacing 'said' with synonyms mocked in...probably the first five minutes of the lecture/conversation.
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Jan 2, 2014 23:41
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I just include a different emoticon for every bit of dialogue; it's a great way to tell a story!
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Jan 2, 2014 23:53
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magnificent7 posted:I think I'm going to approach him with it, and ask him to refer to his favorite authors, or books. Between this and your other post, you (or the thread) are conflating two different things. "X said" versus "said X" is preference. Using a thesaurus to go out of your way to avoid ever using "said" in favor of "he shouted," "he interrupted," "he stated," "he ejaculated" every single time is plain bad writing. Those things should be conveyed through the dialogue itself. Cut off his fingers until he stops. As far as the bolded bit goes, where did you find that one?
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Jan 3, 2014 00:02
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"God is dead." -Nietzsche "Time is dead" -Faulkner "Philosophy is dead." -Stephen Hawking "Print is dead." -Egon Spengler from ghostbusters "Facebook is dead." -Some idiot journalist "Hip hop is dead." -NAS "Ding dong the witch is dead." -Dorothy "Paul is dead." -John Lennon
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Jan 3, 2014 00:13
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Okay, really weird thing to post about, but... I have this really weird, obsessive thing where I demand that the sentences in my paragraphs never begin at the beginning of a line. That is, the first word of each line in a paragraph (except for the first, indented line) must not be the first word of a sentence. I wind up wasting some fraction of my time while writing rewriting my sentences to modify their lengths to make sure that they stay this way. Does this make me completely unfit to be a writer? 
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Jan 3, 2014 00:43
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LaughMyselfTo posted:Okay, really weird thing to post about, but... What do you do if you resize the window or change the font size?
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Jan 3, 2014 00:47
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LaughMyselfTo posted:Okay, really weird thing to post about, but... pretty much, because not only can you never send your stuff off for publication, but any editing you'd do would gently caress it up, and you're going to be more concerned with how it looks than how it reads. You're literally sacrificing parts of your story for something that doesn't matter. STOP DOING THAT.
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Jan 3, 2014 00:54
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