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So, then, how do I avoid pissing off ATC?
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Jan 7, 2014 15:47
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bunnyofdoom posted:So, then, how do I avoid pissing off ATC? So far what's worked for me and my students is to talk to them the way I'm supposed to while throwing in the occasional "thanks." Some news about my life: I'm living in NC right now with a CFI job I enjoy with coworkers I enjoy and my boss has been very easy to get along with, especially considering how aviation bosses can be. The big problem, the weather here stinks and the flight hours are pretty poor, even on CFI standards. I find that on an average day I pull about thirty bucks in. I'm old enough that I have a car payment, rent, and my student loans to figure out every month, which is becoming a problem. A good friend of mine was talking to his boss about me for some reason, that I was an a&p and a good pilot, and the boss man asked that I send my resume in with the intent of offering me an interview. In Florida. For a -lot- more money and flight time. What're you guys' thoughts on pulling up my roots and going to an awesome school in Florida for a more stable financial situation? Is the 40k a year number that got thrown at me a pipe dream? I did my research and it is a very highly praised school, it's just.... Florida...
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Jan 7, 2014 16:31
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bunnyofdoom posted:So, then, how do I avoid pissing off ATC? loving listen to the radio.
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Jan 7, 2014 16:48
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MrYenko posted:loving listen to the radio. Speak clearly? We seem to have a couple pilots with thick accents which frustrate tower to no end
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Jan 7, 2014 16:53
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bunnyofdoom posted:So, then, how do I avoid pissing off ATC? Get on VATSIM. Do the exact opposite.
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Jan 7, 2014 17:05
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When you switch to a frequency, count to five before speaking. Keep it short and to the point. Say good morning/hello/good evening IF the frequency is not busy. Do your best to give them your best rate of climb/descents as long as the pax will be comfortable. Instead of asking for rides, just check in and say how your ride is at the end "XXXX flight level XXX, smooth/occasional/constant chop" so that you are telling them how your ride is instead of asking them where its better. If its better somewhere, they will let you know.
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Jan 7, 2014 17:10
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bunnyofdoom posted:Speak clearly? We seem to have a couple pilots with thick accents which frustrate tower to no end That, and actually listen to the radio. Having to call three or four times when we're busy is incredibly distracting even to me as a D side. The R sides doing the actual talking get even more annoyed. That, and after three unsuccessful calls, I'm reaching for a landline to pester another controller or three to see if they're talking to you. Just answering on the first try makes our job a lot easier.
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Jan 7, 2014 17:41
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Rolo posted:So far what's worked for me and my students is to talk to them the way I'm supposed to while throwing in the occasional "thanks." From what I hear, every operation in the entire state of Florida is sketchy, basically. I'm sure that's just a stereotype, but yeah. How many hours a month are you getting? How many can you expect to get this summer? 40k for a CFI job is on the high side - would you be doing A&P work as well? What school is it?
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Jan 7, 2014 17:50
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Rolo posted:
He figured he could pay you $40k to do the job of both a CFI and a mechanic, and save $10k. The Florida aviation stereotype has been spot-on in my experience.
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Jan 7, 2014 18:01
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Tommy 2.0 posted:In tower I told a C-172 pilot, while in my VFR tower pattern mid-field downwind, to "N5167F make left 360 until further advised, maintain radio silence, advise minimum fuel". This guy pissed me off substantially and I left him out there for about 15-20 minutes longer than I had to. There is some more back story on this, but I still get pissed off about the Cessna flying club at that location when I think about it. Color me unamused. There had better be a loving Oscar-nominated "backstory" to this (and frankly I don't care to listen to it), as that is some goddamn sacrosanct poo poo you Just Don't gently caress With. If I heard that on frequency I would file a complaint with the FSDO.
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Jan 7, 2014 18:19
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vessbot posted:Color me unamused. There had better be a loving Oscar-nominated "backstory" to this (and frankly I don't care to listen to it), as that is some goddamn sacrosanct poo poo you Just Don't gently caress With. If I heard that on frequency I would file a complaint with the FSDO. They did and they told them to gently caress off. Where I was at I pushed to have the flying club pushed to literally priority last and that was the straw that broke the camel's back in letting it become official. After my push vehicles had more priority than them crossing the runway. I was at a military base with literally every type of aircraft. I didn't have time to deal with a student pilot trying to get his hours up while I was dealing with twenty military aircraft in my pattern ranging from fighters, tankers, helicopters, transient cargo aircraft, and foreign aircraft I couldn't understand transitioning through my airspace. I'm not trying to be amusing. It's just fact. Now, if I was at location that specialized in student training my attitude would have been much different. The student pilots there HAD the military flying schedule so they KNEW when not to fly. They would choose to anyways. Hence my lack of patience with them. How not to piss off ATC: No need to say thanks (unless it is an obvious hookup). It is in your tone of voice. Enunciate, listen, check in properly, and give good readbacks. No need to talk any more with normal greetings. When checking on frequency LISTEN before saying anything, make sure the frequency isn't congested. Also, you may not be on the only frequency the controller has. If you are unsure you are doing the right instruction, get verification. We honest to god appreciate it when a pilot verifies his assigned instructions. Much better than them going "hmm, well I'm pretty sure I was given 110" and the guy actually was assigned 120 and even read it back. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 19:20
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Question for ATC guys: I've been in situations where I've been stuck holding short of an active runway for a good amount of time. Is it ok (meaning not annoying) to check in after a couple of minutes of the radio being relatively quiet to make sure I wasn't forgotten about?
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Jan 7, 2014 19:40
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Tommy 2.0 posted:The student pilots there HAD the military flying schedule so they KNEW when not to fly. They would choose to anyways. Hence my lack of patience with them. So, the military owns the airspace here? I see, we're like China now. I thought everyone had access to the same level of service...
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Jan 7, 2014 19:48
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e.pie posted:Question for ATC guys: I'm not ATC, but of course its OK. Its your money that's burning. Not only that, but you need the situational awareness to prepare for the take-off. Just be polite. If a controller has a problem with it they are most likely a disgruntled dick.
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Jan 7, 2014 19:48
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I don't see a problem with it if you're #1, nothing appears to be happening, and you're not getting your takeoff clearance (assuming you're not IFR). Of course, use some common sense. If you see a guy on a tight base or final, don't ask. If you see them crossing some people down the runway a bit, don't ask.
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Jan 7, 2014 19:49
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The Slaughter posted:So, the military owns the airspace here? I see, we're like China now. I thought everyone had access to the same level of service... I would imagine a C-172 would be kinda low on priority if there was a ton of civil airliner traffic instead of military traffic...
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Jan 7, 2014 19:51
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I just got a call from my instructor about my first solo. It is now on my birthday (this friday). So loving pumped!
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Jan 7, 2014 19:52
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Tommy 2.0 posted:They did and they told them to gently caress off. Where I was at I pushed to have the flying club pushed to literally priority last and that was the straw that broke the camel's back in letting it become official. After my push vehicles had more priority than them crossing the runway. I was at a military base with literally every type of aircraft. I didn't have time to deal with a student pilot trying to get his hours up while I was dealing with twenty military aircraft in my pattern ranging from fighters, tankers, helicopters, transient cargo aircraft, and foreign aircraft I couldn't understand transitioning through my airspace. So it's even more of a crybaby situation than I thought, you were just taking out your frustrations about doing your job. Wow.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:08
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vessbot posted:So it's even more of a crybaby situation than I thought, you were just taking out your frustrations about doing your job. Wow. I was a military controller at a military installation whose mission was not making sure people got their VFR certifications on their off days. I even said, if the operations there was for civilian training my attitude would have been different. Believe it or not, you aren't entitled to rear end kissing service every where you fly. Be mindful of the operations of the airport/airspace you are in. The pilot in that situation even made the aeroclub manager pretty upset when he listened to the tapes. It wasn't exactly unwarranted. We were ALWAYS very accommodating to the aeroclub pilots considering our actual mission and operations. Beforehand it was common practice to put them in holding in our south downwind and we would get them in when we could. So a few months before this incident a batch of students/instructors would keep clogging up the frequency after each turn in holding looking to make an approach. This became infuriating and almost lead to an incident one day. We weren't letting them spin to burn money just because we thought it was lol. And my job didn't frustrate me. I loved tower. I take my frustrations out in the gym. The Slaughter posted:So, the military owns the airspace here? I see, we're like China now. I thought everyone had access to the same level of service... Where this was at, pretty much. If you are a civilian flying for kicks, you probably aren't going to get the most appeasing service at a military installation. e.pie posted:Question for ATC guys: That sounds more than reasonable. I'd imagine they would be waiting on a release from approach, or possibly for an EDCT time (unless you are VFR...wake turbulence?). Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 21:30
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Tommy 2.0 posted:I was a military controller at a military installation whose mission was not making sure people got their VFR certifications on their off days. I even said, if the operations there was for civilian training my attitude would have been different. Believe it or not, you aren't entitled to rear end kissing service every where you fly. Be mindful of the operations of the airport/airspace you are in. I don't give a gently caress if you were a NASA controller deconflicting hyperspace jumps to Alpha Centauri, your job at that time and place was to handle that civilian traffic; and, if that displeased you, the proper ways to handle it were emphatically not to 1) trivialize emergency communications by turning them into pieces in some petty punishment game, or, even worse, to 2) establish a link in an accident chain potentially ending with some scared and confused student/low time PP running out of fuel. Worst of all, if you think that shouldering the onerous burden of not doing these things is akin to providing "rear end kissing service," that betrays a serious failure to grasp the the responsibilities you've been entrusted with.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:57
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vessbot posted:I don't give a gently caress if you were a NASA controller deconflicting hyperspace jumps to Alpha Centauri  I don't want to stick my hand in this can of worms, but I agree that no matter how obnoxious a pilot is being, a controller should never put him in a situation that could create a hazardous chain of events. Yell at him, sure. Give him a # to call when he lands, enjoy chewing his rear end off. But you would have felt like poo poo if that guy panicked and derped himself into an accident. You certainly would have had a LOT of explaining to do in front of a room of people out to get your head. As a former CFI of some very stupid people (including one who got ended up as a crater) take my word that the cockpit of a GA aircraft with a stupid pilot in it is a very unpredictable and volatile place. Animal fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 22:08
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Animal posted:
Not sure if this was directed at me or vessbot melting down, but this is a strong post I agree with. I didn't yell at the pilot (never have). I gave my instructions professionally and moved on. I have yelled at other CONTROLLERS for snapping on student pilots for exactly the reasons you listed though. Glad to hear other people are like minded with that. vessbot posted:I don't give a gently caress if you were a NASA controller deconflicting hyperspace jumps to Alpha Centauri, your job at that time and place was to handle that civilian traffic; and, if that displeased you, the proper ways to handle it were emphatically not to 1) trivialize emergency communications by turning them into pieces in some petty punishment game, or, even worse, to 2) establish a link in an accident chain potentially ending with some scared and confused student/low time PP running out of fuel. Worst of all, if you think that shouldering the onerous burden of not doing these things is akin to providing "rear end kissing service," that betrays a serious failure to grasp the the responsibilities you've been entrusted with. Easy turbo. I wouldn't tell a pilot to sit, spin, and be quiet if I thought it was potentially dangerous. My supervisor was up there, and our operations manager came up also. They had zero problems with it. I've explained why I did it, I suppose you missed it. The game changes a bit dependent on your location. Thems the breaks. Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 22:19
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Animal posted:
I was also going to go off until I looked up the ownership of the N number given. Still think a circle forever instruction wasn't the best idea. Tell him to either land, full stop (and have Ground refuse him taxi to the active runway) or tell him to get out of the Delta and do their pattern work elsewhere (assuming it was a Delta and the pilot wasn't restricted to the pattern as a student). A military base is military, and that mission comes first. As a civilian I'd expect equivalent service from a RAPCON as I do from a TRACON, but Tower is a whole different story. hobbesmaster posted:I would imagine a C-172 would be kinda low on priority if there was a ton of civil airliner traffic instead of military traffic... Definitely true for a VFR C-172. On IFR there shouldn't be much difference other than the challenge of dealing with its radically different approach speed...
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Jan 7, 2014 23:27
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hobbesmaster posted:I would imagine a C-172 would be kinda low on priority if there was a ton of civil airliner traffic instead of military traffic... fordan posted:Definitely true for a VFR C-172. On IFR there shouldn't be much difference other than the challenge of dealing with its radically different approach speed... Shouldn't be true either way. It's supposed to be first come, first served. VFRs taking a back seat to IFRs is an industry misconception. There are times where a slower airplane needs to be delayed for a minute so that a faster airplane can save 5 minutes, but the official rule is that everyone is equal (except special VFR and IFR/VFR practice approaches, they take a backseat to itinerant traffic). Tommy 2.0 posted:Not sure if this was directed at me or vessbot melting down It was obviously directed at you but it doesn't surprise me you couldn't tell. quote:Easy turbo. I wouldn't tell a pilot to sit, spin, and be quiet if I thought it was potentially dangerous. My supervisor was up there, and our operations manager came up also. They had zero problems with it. I've explained why I did it, I suppose you missed it. The game changes a bit dependent on your location. Thems the breaks. Expecting decent service from a military ATC operation is a fool's errand. You guys take care of your own (sometimes) and that's about it.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:37
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fordan posted:I was also going to go off until I looked up the ownership of the N number given. Still think a circle forever instruction wasn't the best idea. Tell him to either land, full stop (and have Ground refuse him taxi to the active runway) or tell him to get out of the Delta and do their pattern work elsewhere (assuming it was a Delta and the pilot wasn't restricted to the pattern as a student). It's sort of sad that I can remember the tail number to all the planes in that aeroclub from over 10 years ago... Yeah, I expected to get some one heated up over it, but I did try to explain the circumstances change where you are at. The indefinite 360? It was actually the right call. He couldn't get in to land without stalling all the military departures/arrivals, and he refused to do pattern work at an airfield a few miles away. The guy pretty much pushed my patience to it's last. Also a C-172 doesn't mix at all with military traffic. Even the H-60s ran them down. I had six different traffic patterns to juggle but the aeroclub was only allowed to use one of them to the south. It was amazingly fun traffic to work though. Oh you.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:47
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You were juggling 6 different patterns as a tower controller?
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Jan 7, 2014 23:54
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If you couldn't handle the traffic, why not ask them to remain clear of the delta, frequency change approved? edit: oh i see now this was overseas The Slaughter fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 00:35
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If it was overseas I'm guessing going to a neighbouring airfield would have incured a lot of expense in landing fees. At my home airfield if you wanted to go into the circuit for an hour and did say 10 circuits you'd be facing a roughly $200 bill. My experience with ATC is generally positive, but if I was given a pointless instruction like that I'd be extremely pissed.
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Jan 8, 2014 00:57
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Tommy 2.0 posted:That sounds more than reasonable. I'd imagine they would be waiting on a release from approach, or possibly for an EDCT time (unless you are VFR...wake turbulence?). 
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Jan 8, 2014 01:01
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The Ferret King posted:You were juggling 6 different patterns as a tower controller? Yes. e.pie posted:Yeah I was VFR, no wake turbulence. Was holding short of 17R for landing traffic, traffic came and went, sat there for a few mins listening to radio silence and was wondering what was going on so I asked if I was still to hold short. I just felt like "that" guy bugging the tower. If you got cleared after you asked they forgot about you. That is a "woops" moment *goes back to playing cards* The Ferret King posted:Great that it allowed you to provide a good air traffic service. Thanks! Tommy 2.0 fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 01:13
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e.pie posted:Yeah I was VFR, no wake turbulence. Was holding short of 17R for landing traffic, traffic came and went, sat there for a few mins listening to radio silence and was wondering what was going on so I asked if I was still to hold short. I just felt like "that" guy bugging the tower. Tower already knew you were ready to depart? Tommy 2.0 posted:Yes. Great that it allowed you to provide a good air traffic service.
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Jan 8, 2014 01:13
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http://www.theonion.com/articles/delta-airlines-counter-agent-assures-man-he-will-n,34887/?ref=auto This really sums up the last few days
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Jan 8, 2014 03:17
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The Ferret King posted:Tower already knew you were ready to depart? Yup, they were the ones that told me to hold short.
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Jan 8, 2014 05:30
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If they knew you were ready and you had been sitting a while without seeing much in the way of traffic, I'd probably ask for an update every couple minutes. They're supposed to tell you how long of a delay to expect, if any, and why you're holding short.
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Jan 8, 2014 05:59
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Just to chime in... if there's a mega exercise going on (example, Red Flag recovery window) Tower will be dealing with several aircraft that have huge variations of speed. For example, an HH-60 might be going 60 KIAS, C-17s doing 140, RC-135s doing 170, B-1s doing 200+ and fighters fly above 250 in pattern ops. Finally, military have wingmen, do straight ins, tactical overhead arrivals and pull closed, etc. If there's a C-172 trying to tote around during this massive recovery, he will get told to sit down and shut up. Why you guys are up in arms about this is beyond me. Dude coulda canceled, landed, or whatever but in a Large Force Exercise, ATC is going to prioritize. xaarman fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 07:23
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I understand that this was an overseas military field with a lot of other traffic, but there is a difference between "I could not squeeze this guy in for 20 minutes" and what he said: "This guy pissed me off substantially and I left him out there for about 15-20 minutes longer than I had to" As in, "I could have let him land now, but I hung him out to dry to wave my dick/dissuade him from using this airfield/seek some retribution for my annoyance". This pilot may have been a grade A poo poo stain and probably totally deserved it, but it still makes the controller an rear end in a top hat. Its akin to spitting in an irate customers soup at a restaurant: even if they really had it coming, you are still an rear end in a top hat for doing it. Just because your boss said it was OK doesn't make it any better; he may be an rear end in a top hat too.
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Jan 8, 2014 15:14
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Dumb question from a non-pilot. Since when does civilian traffic fly into military airfields at all? Unless it was a dual-use airfield like MAS Yuma, or Fort Huachuca, I've never heard of civilian pilots using military fields. I though a civilian plane flying into say.. Luke AFB or Nellis AFB was a good way to get met by nice dudes with M-16's, and no way in hell would the tower actually give clearance to land (except an emergency).
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Jan 8, 2014 15:57
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The Locator posted:Dumb question from a non-pilot. Since when does civilian traffic fly into military airfields at all? Unless it was a dual-use airfield like MAS Yuma, or Fort Huachuca, I've never heard of civilian pilots using military fields. I though a civilian plane flying into say.. Luke AFB or Nellis AFB was a good way to get met by nice dudes with M-16's, and no way in hell would the tower actually give clearance to land (except an emergency). The N number he gave is of a C-172 owned by the USAF and based at the Kadena AFB flying club. It's not like they were randomly flying the Cessna in from somewhere else. Here, flight aware: http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N5167F
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Jan 8, 2014 17:07
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Just wanna throw in that I did a lot of pattern work as a student at KIAG which is a dual-use airport. There were days I was in the pattern with C130s and some kind of fighter jets (or trainers I guess). Tower never even hinted at being annoyed by me or anything else, and I definitely got in the way sometimes. They're all really nice at KIAG.
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Jan 8, 2014 17:58
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Animal posted:He figured he could pay you $40k to do the job of both a CFI and a mechanic, and save $10k. I don't think he's expecting me to turn a wrench. Even if he did I'd do it for 40k and thank him for it. I'm making like 10k a year while being on call 7 days a week. What is the Florida aviation stereotype? Sketchy and bad English?
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Jan 8, 2014 18:14
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