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oredun posted:Ableton crashes a lot. Its just a fact of life. Maybe like 1/25 risk of crash. I've used it for a really long time and many computers and it just crashes more than doing software. Last time I used it live it crashed actually. I don't use Ableton often (learning it at a snails pace as I have time available) but I know a lot of people who do, and I have never heard of it crashing... ever. I'm sure it happens but 1 out of 25 times?? Lots of artists use ableton for their live shows, and they don't seem to be having any issues (I'm sure they have back ups just in case, but I've never heard this complaint about ableton before)
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Jan 7, 2014 22:48
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The only time I've seen Ableton crash in a performance scenario was on Windows and the version was probably cracked. That's happened 4-5 times by openers.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:51
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I've had it crash at about that rate doing simple things on a Mac with a paid version. 
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Jan 7, 2014 23:14
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I was curious too because I would imagine that an Ableton Dj set is a lot less complicated than an Ableton set for an actual track. In a DJ set you just are playing large audio files for the most part with some fairly standard effects, whereas in a song you have all the VSTs etc. I don't really get Ableton crashes when I'm working on tracks so would be surprised if Ableton crashes a lot when DJing. so if it does crash, you just plug your ipod in and press play on a prerecorded set?
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Jan 7, 2014 23:51
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I keep wanting to try Ableton out for DJing, but it just seems so much more difficult than Traktor. How much prep work do you actually need to do for a set? Like, with Traktor, I have pretty much everything I play out beatgridded and cuepointed and such, so I can basically do a set with zero prep work, just playing off the various genre folders and occasionally searching for a particular song I want to play next. It comes in handy when I get one of those all-too-common panicked calls from a promoter with no one booked. When I do that, it's not nearly as impressive as a set I took a little bit of time to prepare beforehand, but that "prep" work mainly amounts to packing a crate for the gig (making a quick playlist), and I still have the option of pulling from my larger collection if/when the perfect next song inserts itself into my head. I tried an experimental set with Ableton and it seemed much more difficult to pull off, the library was nowhere near as useful, warping tracks is much more complicated, to say nothing of actually trying to blend a couple tracks together. Of course some of this might be alleviated if I actually spent the time to properly map my controller... Basically, how the hell does any of it even work? What's your general workflow look like? Do you have to pick the exact set of tracks you're going to play beforehand, or is there some freedom to choose on the fly? What do you do to blend tracks together in interesting ways? There seems to be a plethora of video tutorials for nearly anything you can use Ableton for ... except actually DJing, which is like this well-kept secret that no one wants to divulge.
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Jan 8, 2014 00:55
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Ableton has always mildly terrified me. How do you even use it for a live set?
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Jan 8, 2014 01:11
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88h88 posted:Ableton has always mildly terrified me. How do you even use it for a live set? For DJing, x channels with all of the effects needed on each channel, or use routing/sends to mix that way. For my live PA, I have a bunch of disco samples, drum kicks, percussion, and synths that I trigger on the fly to create live remixes. Ableton is really flexible.
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Jan 8, 2014 01:18
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Lump Shaker posted:so if it does crash, you just plug your ipod in and press play on a prerecorded set? Well, you should always have a backup method for when you're playing out... but not that Maybe as a third backup if poo poo really hits the fan? Still. Dessert Rose posted:I keep wanting to try Ableton out for DJing, but it just seems so much more difficult than Traktor. deadmau5 has it all preset and he hits play. I think he has the ability to tweak some nobs here and there. Probably not the best example, but it works for him. I've also seen people who 'play' an entire set live, although it's more like cueing up loops and so forth. Thats not for DJs though, only artists playing their own tracks. I dont think ableton is a good for DJs. At least with what I know about it at this point, it really is better for artists. mitztronic fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 01:51
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TheWevel posted:I've had it crash at about that rate doing simple things on a Mac with a paid version. Old ableton used to crash in the weirdest way, but they fixed the problem when 4 came out. It would suddenly start spitting out your clips randomly, sometimes in really interesting combinations. Sometimes this would go on for 30 seconds, sometimes for 10-20 minutes and the only way to make it stop would be to force-quit. I've been using live since 2.0 and I still don't see the advantage of using it for djing. You can make awesome mix tapes with it, but there's tons of prep work.
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Jan 8, 2014 04:32
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Dessert Rose posted:Basically, how the hell does any of it even work? What's your general workflow look like? Do you have to pick the exact set of tracks you're going to play beforehand, or is there some freedom to choose on the fly? What do you do to blend tracks together in interesting ways? I think that a vast majority of the videos on DJing with Ableton are trash. It's people using stock effects and building overly-complex effects racks. I also believe many of these people aren't using a controller in a performance setting and are instead massaging a mix over the course of a day with mouse and keyboard. Not the way I want things to run. I run the Isotonik template right now and it's great, but I am afraid it's wayyyy more than I need and it's complexity is causing Ableton to hit the wall. Please see a snippet (seriously - just one bit of the Max4Live patching work) below:  It's a loving monster of a template. It runs four decks with 8 effects racks on each, looping on each, slicer, some smart effects you can map out - like, completely over the top for what I do. If I am doing anything performance style it's usually mashups which I can do using eq'ing and chopping up clips on the fly. These things require no real insane effects setup as most of these functions are native within Ableton with a little practice. I am presently bending my brain to learn Max4Live (for which there are very few meaningful tutorials, in my opinion). I'll learn it, though, map and reprogram my APC40 and get it tight for the next gig. I want it to be exactly what I need and not this behemoth that I am sure is cooking my Ableton session with too much stress. As for setting up tracks? I warp them. If I download a fresh track during the show then that means it is not mapped to the global tempo in Ableton and will not sync correctly free-hand. In these instances I look at the waveform, decide where the first downbeat is (I can cue it up with my headphones, but usually just use my eyes) and tap it out with the existing beat and let it slide in while fading out the previous track. From there I tap out the tempo on my APC40 of the new track as it plays to determine where we are at while setting the global tempo, and roll into the next track from there. This technique works great for me so far. I hosed up on NYE and didn't have backup music playing on my iPod. Things were hectic as gently caress starting with me getting there early and having to wait to the last minute to setup. People were rolling up and loving what I was doing, but it was also keeping me from doing what I had to do. I'm happy it turned out as well as it did and I'm glad I learned as much as I did. People don't sweat a funny transition so long as it's not just pure silence for a minute straight. Worse comes to worst I'm a charmer on the microphone after 10+ year of live performance so I can usually rally a crowd to my side if the ship starts to sink. The best part? I'll practice at home all evening with no issues and when I take it live things get funny. I'm running an IBM ThinkPad T series laptop with 8gigs of RAM and nothing else running - it's dedicated to Ableton. People say go the Mac route but I never see the advantage as Macs have crashed in front of me just as often except the touchy-feely-ness of it all leaves me a little uncertain as to how well I can pull out of a crash. Just one dude's opinion. I hope I answered a lot of the questions I saw asked. I still love Ableton coming as someone who has recorded with it for years, so it's my weapon of choice. I'm one of those "path of most resistance" folks though, too. Edit: Oh - and really the video that got me excited for using Ableton as a DJ setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NykjzHLbIM 19 o'clock fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 05:43
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Some hot Ableton talk going around. Anybody have any insight as to the question i posed last page about Traktor sync turning itself off on timecode playback? I've Googled and scoured the manual (and asked here) and haven't found an answer. It's just a bit of an irritation, to prep three-deck mixes with a system that keeps dropping in and out of sync.
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Jan 8, 2014 07:19
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It seems to me that timecode and sync are opposing functions, and shouldn't work together. Was this always a problem or did it just recently start doing that?
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Jan 8, 2014 10:32
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mitztronic posted:
Here are two Surgeon sets just to get you to rethink that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tndlzrc_g0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnkc3xTz0D8 Edit: of note in the second one: the massive amounts of layering / the ridiculously slowed down IDM, etc
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Jan 8, 2014 12:44
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Yeah but how much time did he spend preparing that? And what's the point of playing "live" if it's just something you've meticulously programmed and have no real chance of loving up? I played with records for years and started doing mix tapes with Live back in 3.x but the only "live" element of my sets were things I had programmed in specifically to make it look like I was actually doing something when I played out. As much as using Traktor on the iPad looks/feels like cheating, at least it's still a tool for improvisation and building routines which have to be executed with video game like precision. Nowadays I have a nightly gig and I begin each set with only a vague idea of what I'm going to be playing, maybe the first two songs and some playlists/routines I have built up and memorized, which I almost never do exactly the same way. But back when I played "live" on Live I would just be spending the whole afternoon building up one static set and playing it out that evening. Now just about 100% of my prep time is spent finding new music and refining (deleting songs from) my library. Which seems like a better use of my time than pushing the button all day to make an hourlong set.
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Jan 8, 2014 13:52
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bad day posted:Yeah but how much time did he spend preparing that? And what's the point of playing "live" if it's just something you've meticulously programmed and have no real chance of loving up? Nail on the head here. Ableton Live is a tremendous tool which serves it's purpose very well, but everyday DJing (in the mixing of a pile of records back and forth sense) isn't one of them.
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Jan 8, 2014 14:01
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Hey guys, do you know of an alternative to mixed in key? I just bought my first controller (DDJ-SB) today and it sounded cool in the OP but I don't really want to spend $60 to find out key and bitrates of songs. Seems ridiculously steep.
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Jan 8, 2014 16:20
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bad day posted:Yeah but how much time did he spend preparing that? And what's the point of playing "live" if it's just something you've meticulously programmed and have no real chance of loving up? I've played out with Live before and obviously there are ways that you can basically just pre-program everything, but there are just as many ways where you can treat it just like playing records. That really all depends on the person. Just because you played preprogrammed sets doesn't mean that everyone does, or that it's the only way of using Ableton. How much time did Surgeon spend preparing either of those sets? I have no clue, you'd have to ask him. Though from his interviews, it seems just as much time as it takes anyone to prepare a normal set, though with different actions. bad day posted:Now just about 100% of my prep time is spent finding new music and refining (deleting songs from) my library. Which seems like a better use of my time than pushing the button all day to make an hourlong set. I can tell you that Tony didn't just render then go to the club and press play. You can treat ableton exactly like you do normal records. I don't know why people have a hard time believing that. Also, I find it slightly bothersome that people are still worried about the physical performance of the DJ, that a DJ who does a lot of moving and twisting somehow is more involved in the mix than DJs who don't make a whole lot of motion. If DJing is supposed to be about the selection, then does it matter if someone doesn't move at all other than to cue up a new track? Surgeon's a techno DJ, so there's not going to be a whole lot of motion from him. There's just as much motion from Surgeon using Ableton as there is from Donato Dozzy playing records, and both are wonderful DJs. a milk crime fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 17:18
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bad day posted:It seems to me that timecode and sync are opposing functions, and shouldn't work together. Was this always a problem or did it just recently start doing that? No, it just recently started with the latest Traktor update (2.6?). I used to be able to ride the pitch fader of one deck and have the other follow it, no problem. Like I said this is just to test three- or four-deck transitions at home (I only really play out with CDJs); it's much quicker to find three D&B tunes that work together to throw in a playlist when I'm not worrying about sync. Like I said before, I'm aware of the 'reset all deck controls when loading' option in Preferences, but is there another button I'm missing that would cause this? As for the Great Ableton Live Debate... I'm firmly in the camp that it's far too much prep work to use Live as a simple DJ tool - especially if you're planning to have a 'crate' of warped/clipped tracks... man, that's way too much work. You might as well get Traktor, use Sync/Snap/Quantize with a button-heavy controller and find an outboard FX unit you like. I can't speak for touring acts using Live, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts most of them don't exactly improvise beyond some FX application, or maybe switching out a song or two - before the gig, on their flight over. Then again, the same could be (and has been) said for a lot of big names using software or CDJs. The real potential of Live, to me, lies in stems performance - like Traktor's Remix Deck approach, but with a higher degree of control. And do people really use VSTs in Ableton DJ sets??? That scares the crap out of me; no wonder it crashes all the time.
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Jan 8, 2014 19:04
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Harley C posted:Hey guys, do you know of an alternative to mixed in key? Traktor does it's own key detection now too, as of version 2.something. It doesn't use the Camelot notation that MIK uses, however, which can be confusing if you have Camelot notation files mixed into your collection. Not sure what you mean about detecting bitrate. All library programs and DVS programs include the bitrate as something you can show by default. Maybe you meant tempo? Traktor/Serato do that too, and Beatport started pre-tagging BPM into their files about a year ago
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Jan 8, 2014 19:09
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Thanks for all the great discussion (and videos! That Agent Smith video was impressive as hell) on Ableton. I'm currently investigating ways I can change things up in my performance - I've basically been performing with the same S2/F1 setup for the last nine months or so and with me getting into production it's starting to feel a little limiting. (I'm kind of looking for a reason to bring my Push with me to a gig, really.) So, let's say (pretend?) Ableton isn't as "good" as Traktor when it comes to simply mixing full prerecorded audio files. What about the setup I've seen used in one or two places where you route Traktor's four decks into four channels in Ableton, then launch clips / apply effects / do the final mix in there? Has anyone tried that method? It seems like that would give the best of both worlds, but perhaps it's playing with fire when it comes to stability. The outboard FX unit is an interesting idea, too. I had considered something like the RMX-1000 but I'm leery of adding yet more hardware to my setup; getting set up in a club is a pain in the rear end already.
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Jan 8, 2014 19:32
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I sort of treated Live like that when I first got into Mister Speaker fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 8, 2014 |
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Jan 8, 2014 19:41
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Dessert Rose posted:The outboard FX unit is an interesting idea, too. I had considered something like the RMX-1000 but I'm leery of adding yet more hardware to my setup; getting set up in a club is a pain in the rear end already. I love that all the videos Pioneer has put out of 'expert DJs' using the RMX has resulted in a few lovely swooshes here and there, a filter now and again and a few stabs at samples. Has anyone actually managed to use the RMX well because I feel like it should be able to do some amazing poo poo considering the price tag.
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Jan 8, 2014 23:54
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Harley C posted:Hey guys, do you know of an alternative to mixed in key?
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Jan 9, 2014 04:00
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Maybe I'm just crap at configuring things properly, but I always had minor latency problems when feeding audio into ableton and then out again - not necessarily enough to notice but enough to screw me up. If I really, really wanted to use Ableton as an effects unit, I would put it on the send channel on my mixer and just make it an outboard effects unit as others have said, in which case a few milliseconds of latency is not going to be an issue. I use a maschine as my second device - I impulse-bought it thinking it was self-contained like the MPC ($300, on clearance at Best Buy, hard to pass up, came with Massive and a bunch of other NI programs) and it fills my need for "doing something" while I'm in the middle of a track and not cueing up/mixing. I like how you can control it entirely through the device itself but kind of wish a computer didn't have to be involved at all. I think there's always going to be an issue where a DJ is a performer who is onstage and thus people who pay money feel like they should have something to look at. A guy who just stands there passively staring at his laptop is not going to be fun to see, no matter how good the music is. This has always been a problem with electronic music - that it is consumed in a party environment but created by people sitting in their bedrooms pushing the button for hours on end - and in the 90's the solution became the DJ as the primary fixture in electronic music. Which never quite made sense because even the best DJ is mostly playing other people's music. I feel like the new technology has gotten so good that there's really no excuse to just be standing there anymore - it's important to be constantly doing something. Even if it's just dancing or singing along or rocking out. If I'm just sitting there watching the waveforms fly by, I don't feel like I'm really earning my pay.
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Jan 9, 2014 04:07
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Has anyone used Lemur as an ableton controller? Is it good? I am tempted to pull the trigger and buy it now that it's on sale for $25. How does it compare to Touchable?
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Jan 9, 2014 04:08
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bad day posted:I think there's always going to be an issue where a DJ is a performer who is onstage and thus people who pay money feel like they should have something to look at. A guy who just stands there passively staring at his laptop is not going to be fun to see, no matter how good the music is. This has always been a problem with electronic music - that it is consumed in a party environment but created by people sitting in their bedrooms pushing the button for hours on end - and in the 90's the solution became the DJ as the primary fixture in electronic music. Which never quite made sense because even the best DJ is mostly playing other people's music. I think acts like Raime, Holly Herndon, and Uwe Schmidt really throw your statements to the wind - people love their music (by people I mean at least me, and my friends, and those who see them life), and they don't do a whole lot of moving while they perform -and generally you can't even see them at the clubs where they perform anyway. I think that the feeling to be constantly doing something is natural, though I think entirely unnecessary - if you have confidence in your selection, then there are going to be at least some moments where you do absolutely nothing.
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Jan 9, 2014 11:44
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a milk crime posted:I think acts like Raime, Holly Herndon, and Uwe Schmidt really throw your statements to the wind - people love their music (by people I mean at least me, and my friends, and those who see them life), and they don't do a whole lot of moving while they perform -and generally you can't even see them at the clubs where they perform anyway. You just named 3 people who are boring and ive never heard of them. Now think about how many actually famous djs just stare at their feet all night? Not all that many. Secondly, about ableton talk, it crashes a lot for being "live". Ive had it legally since 5 or 6, ive been to studios to train people how to use it, i can do some poo poo with it. But if you notice, the big names who use it have two laptops on stage with them because it crashes too much.
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Jan 9, 2014 18:41
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vanilla slimfast posted:Traktor does it's own key detection now too, as of version 2.something. It doesn't use the Camelot notation that MIK uses, however, which can be confusing if you have Camelot notation files mixed into your collection. I'm on serato, and yeah BPM. I worked out that the analyze button finds that one though. I'm a dumb idiot. Thank you so much for this!
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Jan 9, 2014 18:50
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oredun posted:Secondly, about ableton talk, it crashes a lot for being "live". Ive had it legally since 5 or 6, ive been to studios to train people how to use it, i can do some poo poo with it. But if you notice, the big names who use it have two laptops on stage with them because it crashes too much. Is that really why people use two laptops? Seems like its more common to have Ableton on one and Traktor on the other. And don't most big djs just have the CDJs for backup?
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Jan 9, 2014 19:22
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a milk crime posted:I think acts like (people I've never heard of) really throw your statements to the wind. Yeah but what DO you see when they perform? Doubtlessly some kind of cool light/video show. My point is that people don't really want to stand there and stare at someone playing with their computer. There has to be some visual element to the performance in order for it to be compelling. Even Diplo, who is a very active dj, has a guy who tours with him and does live video effects/mixing (his name is Dewey). I get really into it when I mix. Sometimes I sit down but when I get really into it I have my headphones on and am dancing/twitching my fingers and there is nothing happening in the world around me. I played tonight and just uploaded it to Soundcloud. Sort of an eclectic mix themed around the topic of love being problematic (had some trouble with the wife lately, this helped me work it out). Starts out with Kevin Gates, ends with Devin The Dude, buncha good dubstep & glitch-hop in the middle, some oldies too. http://soundcloud.com/insuffleupagus/love-is-trouble-mix bad day fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jan 9, 2014 |
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Jan 9, 2014 19:28
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bad day posted:Yeah but what DO you see when they perform? Doubtlessly some kind of cool light/video show. That's not the case. a milk crime is a serious techno dude and the acts that he's talking about have a committed underground following. They aren't trying to entertain a bunch of drunk people - they're playing for the heads and showmanship really isn't necessary. In fact, it would be incredibly gauche in that setting. It's a totally different aesthetic.
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Jan 9, 2014 22:45
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oredun posted:You just named 3 people who are boring and ive never heard of them. Now think about how many actually famous djs just stare at their feet all night? Not all that many. lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll bad day posted:Yeah but what DO you see when they perform? Doubtlessly some kind of cool light/video show. My point is that people don't really want to stand there and stare at someone playing with their computer. There has to be some visual element to the performance in order for it to be compelling. Even Diplo, who is a very active dj, has a guy who tours with him and does live video effects/mixing (his name is Dewey). for Raime, there are visuals, you're right, but most people when talking about Raime live talk about the music before they talk about the visuals. For Holly Herndon, it was all black really, and for Uwe Schmidt it was definitely all black. I mean, really, we're talking about different worlds of experience. In the area that I'm discussing, there are no fancy light shows beyond minimal visuals, nobody cares about what the DJ does as long as they're selecting well, and that seems to be different than the latent Rockism that a lot of other people/EDM fans in the thread are demanding. a milk crime fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jan 9, 2014 |
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Jan 9, 2014 23:17
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a milk crime posted:latent Rockism ding ding ding
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Jan 9, 2014 23:44
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To me it can be deconstructed down to which way the crowd is facing. If they're all looking at the DJ it's one kind of show, if they're all looking at each other it's another.
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Jan 9, 2014 23:58
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a milk crime posted:latent Rockism To be honest I started out (and am still) a hip-hop dj and there's always been a huge emphasis on scratching/rapping/shouting over the music in that culture.
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Jan 10, 2014 03:08
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bad day posted:To be honest I started out (and am still) a hip-hop dj and there's always been a huge emphasis on scratching/rapping/shouting over the music in that culture. In my defense: a milk crime posted:latent Rockism that a lot of other people/EDM fans Of course, I probably should have made clear that I don't have any problem with rap. When I go to rap shows I expect that and it's tight.
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Jan 10, 2014 06:46
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Don Verga fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 10, 2014 19:57
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Don Verga posted:After years of listening and attending electronic music events I want to start playing with mixers and what not, and I'm looking to buy my first piece of equipment. Thinking of starting with the Stanton M203 2 channel mixer. For the price I think nothing is going to beat that currently, and while it looks very basic I think that's exactly what I need right now. Thoughts? What are you feeding into that mixer as far as audio sources?
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Jan 10, 2014 20:20
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Don Verga posted:After years of listening and attending electronic music events I want to start playing with mixers and what not, and I'm looking to buy my first piece of equipment. Thinking of starting with the Stanton M203 2 channel mixer. For the price I think nothing is going to beat that currently, and while it looks very basic I think that's exactly what I need right now. Thoughts? Clearly you have no clue in what's actually involved with DJing if you're only looking to buy a mixer and not something that feeds an audio signal (turntables, cd players, controller, whatever) Maybe buy and read this book first before doing anything else http://www.amazon.com/How-DJ-Right-Science-Playing/dp/0802139957/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389381889&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+dj+right
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Jan 10, 2014 20:25
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vanilla slimfast posted:Maybe buy and read this book first before doing anything else I bought this and it didn't say anything about various DJ poses like the heart hands or jesus pose.
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Jan 10, 2014 20:35
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