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The Escoerea chapter isn't on the ice planet, it's somewhere with forests and nice things. Zak gets recruited on the ice planet.
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Jan 11, 2014 23:50
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The 'Prologue' at the end is a different person. It's showing that there are many people like Zakalwe, and once his usefulness as a weapon is done, Special Circumstances moves on to cherry-pick another likely candidate to take his place in their plans. The new title is part of that. I'm not sure why people are suddenly trying to convince you that it's Diziet Sma recruiting Zakalwe for the first time, I've literally never seen anyone take that meaning from it and it boggles my mind how they could.
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Jan 12, 2014 01:58
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John Charity Spring posted:The 'Prologue' at the end is a different person.
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Jan 12, 2014 03:53
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Right, although you might have forgotten it by the end of UoW, the bit where he shaves his head is a hint that the opening bit with his drunk friend takes place after the brain surgery. He's back doing
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Jan 12, 2014 04:12
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awesmoe posted:You know, I'm not 100% sure I'd ever read that epilogue before, despite reading the book about a dozen times. It obviously definitely is a different person (although the symbolism of the chair is possibly interesting to someone who cares more about that stuff than I do). Yeah, same here. Holy poo poo, I never knew it was in there.
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Jan 12, 2014 07:52
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Why even use people? If you can create AI such as that and materials engineering is at 'magic' stage where you seemingly can do anything - you can create a believable android. Skaffen wouldn't have to look like a suitcase. It's infinitely more practical for a million reasons. A bit like how Zak refused to have the tracking device implanted.. so then you had a number of times where he had to do really ridiculous poo poo that could be seen from space and come to the absolute cusp of dying.. because they didn't know where he was. Medically they were so advanced but during the Mr Staberdine chapters he used an ear-piece? Surely implanting a thing and then taking it out again when he's done his current mission, if he is still so delusional about privacy after he's become aware they literally see and know all, would again be more practical for a many reasons. The book consistently didn't make sense to me on stuff like this, one of the reasons it frustrated me.
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Jan 12, 2014 11:15
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Tony Montana posted:Why even use people? If you can create AI such as that and materials engineering is at 'magic' stage where you seemingly can do anything - you can create a believable android. Skaffen wouldn't have to look like a suitcase. It's infinitely more practical for a million reasons. They do have those, the ship's avatars for instance. But one of the central conceits of the whole Culture series is that despite the Minds' godlike intelligence, just occasionally there's one human in a trillion who has an ability that they just can't replicate. Also they feel that letting humans feel involved is a good thing to do and gives them a sense of meaning in their lives. Your spoilered bit can be put down pretty much entirely to Zakalwe's distrust of Minds and the Culture in general, remember that he isn't originally a Culture citizen. For all we know they were secretly monitoring him the whole time, but if they were to show up without him first giving some sort of signal then he would know and would never work for them again.
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Jan 12, 2014 14:23
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Zak has that irreplaceable ability? A solider, but his own words, first and just a generally personable guy second? Perhaps.. perhaps winning the trust of those other cultures and then leading them in battle was something the AI still can't quite get a grip on.. I find that hard to believe though. Also, Zak (I'd say), they run the whole show, mate. It doesn't matter if you trust them or don't, they can see everything and their influence is effectively boundless, certainly from your perspective anyway. The tracking device is for you, not for them.. if you can't rationalize that then forget it and do as you will. Which is perhaps exactly the way the conovo between Sma and Zak went, even more to the point that it seems Zak's entire being could be a (rather minor) subroutine in the Mind of a ship in orbit controlling a hundred automatons on the surface. Also the 'giving the humans something to do' makes sense when we're on that colony ship (the big one) and they're building smaller ships and Zak asks the engineer 'why do you do this then if the AI could just do it?' and the engineer just says 'coz it's fun  '. But when we're talking SC and intervention, surely the focus there is on the outcome rather than occupational therapy for humans?
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Jan 12, 2014 14:37
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I guess among other involved civilizations, dropping a spaceship-god in human form into a conflict between less advanced civilizations might be looked upon less favorably than just sending that one un-augmented not-even-properly-Culture dude in on a space taxi.
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Jan 12, 2014 14:50
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For the cultures being intervened in? They wouldn't know, it wouldn't be like Data rocking with a cat under his arm like Blofeld. They'd just think this dude is pretty drat switched on and the AI is so evolved that it would know to gently caress up just a little now and then so as not to appear totally mechanic. For other culture aware of The Culture's activities and sanctioning them? Surely that's about results and performance, we've intervened this many time and gotten these results.. hence we continue to do this and you continue to support us. You'd get better results when your agent can literally pull some superhuman poo poo when the situation calls for it. Perhaps.. darkest of all.. the Culture needs it's agent to die in some situations to meet their goals. Only a dopey non-Culture human would fit the bill for that job.
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Jan 12, 2014 14:55
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Tony Montana posted:Perhaps.. darkest of all.. the Culture needs it's agent to die in some situations to meet their goals. Only a dopey non-Culture human would fit the bill for that job. I'd say this definitely happens. The agents probably get brought back from their latest back-up or whatever, but I can't imagine that SC doesn't occasionally sacrifice its own agents without their knowledge, like sending them into a battle they know they won't win in order to distract the opponent from another operation. SC is really messed up and doesn't hold a lot of the same values that the Culture as a whole has, that's why the attitude of your everyday Culture citizen to SC varies from "wow, they're so cool" to "what a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards." Additionally, something that keeps getting brought up in the novels are that SC decisions tend to be made by groups of minds, some of them being very touchy-feely and others being very aggressive. They all bitch about each other and want to pursue different approaches, and (though it's not specifically stated) I get the feeling that's considered to be one of the reasons for their success in these matters. Each extreme is tempered by the extreme positions of others. As for why the Culture involves humans so much in its operations, including the SC ones, it's stated in one of the novels that Minds have to have some built-in concern for humans/organic life. Not just for their safety but for their overall place in the galaxy, otherwise the minds just say welp and sublime. They could go into these lower tech civilisations and manipulate them entirely themselves, but the fact it's some greater-than-God machine doing it rather than those squishy meatbags helping each other out ends up with dictatorship (benevolent as it may be). This is why I've never completely bought into the criticisms of the Culture's approach as the very imperialism that Bank's argued against. The Minds put fallible humans into these positions to do the work. It's organic life influencing organic life. Sure, the minds have all these facts and figures backing up their approach as well, but they need somebody more involved to be on the ground doing it. Ultimately, humans have a different view of life, the universe and everything to the Minds, and them jumping in themselves to completely organise every aspect of life erodes and eventually destroys that. tl;dr: Minds aren't human but they want to preserve humanity and all the foibles that go with it, and unfortunately they can't do that and just run the show entirely.
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Jan 12, 2014 17:10
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Tony Montana posted:For the cultures being intervened in? They wouldn't know, it wouldn't be like Data rocking with a cat under his arm like Blofeld. They'd just think this dude is pretty drat switched on and the AI is so evolved that it would know to gently caress up just a little now and then so as not to appear totally mechanic. For other culture aware of The Culture's activities and sanctioning them? Surely that's about results and performance, we've intervened this many time and gotten these results.. hence we continue to do this and you continue to support us. You'd get better results when your agent can literally pull some superhuman poo poo when the situation calls for it. As well as what Amused Frog said, in later books Banks makes it clear that there are also loads of civilisations at or above the Culture's development level, and some of them might take umbrage with the Culture parachuting one of their best and brightest Mind into a situation to do, basically, whatever the gently caress it wants. Certainly I think I recall the Morthanveld having pretty strict limits on what Culture AIs and Minds were allowed to do in space they were responsible for. Basically, plausible deniability is pretty important for the Culture, and using human agents gives them the ability to go 'What? Some squishy meatbag is doing what? You're breaking up...what's happened? Oh, it's all over now? Oh well then. We didn't really know him anyway, but maybe it'll turn out for the best. Humans, eh?'.
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Jan 12, 2014 20:25
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Barry Foster posted:As well as what Amused Frog said, in later books Banks makes it clear that there are also loads of civilisations at or above the Culture's development level, and some of them might take umbrage with the Culture parachuting one of their best and brightest Mind into a situation to do, basically, whatever the gently caress it wants. Certainly I think I recall the Morthanveld having pretty strict limits on what Culture AIs and Minds were allowed to do in space they were responsible for. Isn't this practically spelt out in Player of Games as well? I recall something about there being equiv-tech-level civilisations in the area around the Empire of Azad, which is one of the reasons SC goes about everything in that book the way it does.
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Jan 12, 2014 22:02
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No poo poo. I've only read UoW, there are other civilizations more advanced than The Culture? So using humans with humans is political as much as anything else. Mind blown, dudes, cheers
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Jan 12, 2014 22:13
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SC using ship avatars to do their interventions would also disturb the human population something major. They justify their hedonism with the good works Contact do. Its important that any human could, in theory, join up.
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Jan 12, 2014 22:18
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I also wouldn't dismiss the possibility that some minds might choose to use humans just for the fun and challenge of it. I mean, sure, they could send down an avatar or droid or whatever, and even that might not actually be necessary often because they could just project an image or hell, just stay out of it all together and influence some things from a distance here and there to achieve there goal, but where's the fun in that? Humans are unpredictable and so much more interesting.
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Jan 12, 2014 22:28
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Tony Montana posted:No poo poo. I've only read UoW, there are other civilizations more advanced than The Culture? So using humans with humans is political as much as anything else. Mind blown, dudes, cheers After the Idiran war the question really hinges on what constitutes a civilization. Some of the sublimed probably are but they don't really bother with galactic events.
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Jan 12, 2014 22:54
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I have no idea what you're talking about, in the Banks context, but I can only go on the pretty old scifi concept of intelligent life could eventually evolve into pure energy or a gaseous cloud or something equally alien. I am assuming this is what you mean by 'the sublimed'. Do these entities exist in Banks scifi and what are the books containing them? Culture Minds and sublimed superbeings having ridiculously high level discussion would be amazing.
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Jan 12, 2014 23:07
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Tony Montana posted:In UoW I'm pretty sure that would have been the scene where he breaks into that dudes bedroom, scares the poo poo out of him for a few pages talking quitely to him while holding a gun at him and eventually promises to do something other than kill him (take him to the Culture's meanie place) and then shoots him in the face anyway because.. gently caress him. There's definitely a ton of revenge fantasy in the novels, but I think at least most of the time it has something more to say as well. That scene with Zakalwe is basically ifImetHitlerI'dtotally.txt. It's the SC fantasy - zoom around, point guns at the most awful people imaginable, rub their noses in it then kill them anyway. Then we learn he isn't actually working for SC at all, and the rest of the novel goes on to show how utterly empty the fantasy actually is, and how broken you'd have to be to live it. And not quite everyone gets their comeuppance. The politician from Hydrogen Sonata springs to mind. He horribly murders his girlfriend and his president, basically because his vanity couldn't stand the Gzilt starting to have second thoughts, and happily sublimes at the end. Seriously, gently caress that guy. (If banks is good at anything, it's really making you hate the bad guy  )
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Jan 12, 2014 23:09
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Tony Montana posted:I have no idea what you're talking about, in the Banks context, but I can only go on the pretty old scifi concept of intelligent life could eventually evolve into pure energy or a gaseous cloud or something equally alien. I am assuming this is what you mean by 'the sublimed'. Do these entities exist in Banks scifi and what are the books containing them? Culture Minds and sublimed superbeings having ridiculously high level discussion would be amazing. They do, and that's kind of it - it's more that entire civilisations, when the time is right, enter another plane of existence. So they're not just big Melllvar things floating around the galaxy. They sometimes interact with our reality, usually in really baffling and occasionally murderous ways, but generally they don't show much interest at all. They certainly don't talk to the Minds who, Banks makes clear in one book, would have no real way to understand them even if they tried. The Sublime come up quite a lot - in particular in Consider Phlebas, Look to Windward, and most especially The Hydrogen Sonata, which is about a sister civilisation to the Culture on the eve of sublimation.
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Jan 12, 2014 23:13
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Right. Yes. Man, did I buy the wrong Banks book first  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sublimed So that's quite detailed. Continuing with Wikipedia brought me to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiran-Culture_War and then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiran#Idirans Full-grown Idirans stand about three meters tall on a tripod of legs and have two arms. There is some hint of fully trilateral symmetry in their ancestry, as a third, vestigial, arm has evolved into a chest-flap which the Idirans use to create loud, booming warning signals. They have a saddle-shaped head with two eyes at each end of the saddle. Idirans are biologically immortal (or, more correctly, ageless) and are very resilient to physical damage as they are protected by a natural keratinous body-armour and can withstand catastrophic damage and even remain conscious, though they do not naturally regenerate. They are dual hermaphrodites, each half of a couple impregnating the other. After one or two pregnancies Idirans lose their fertility and develop into the warrior stage, reaching greater size and weight, the armour hardening fully. Idiran warriors are capable of taking enormous amounts of damage and can survive massive trauma that would kill a human being instantly-for example, losing a large fraction of their head. The biological immortality was a result of their evolution as the 'top monster on a planet full of monsters', where strong natural selection pressure and a strong background radiation (causing mutations) prevented the biological immortality from stifling the evolution of the species. That all sounds extremely interesting and despite some of the posters here perhaps considering it more 'pew pew simple, space opera scifi' compared to the 'literary work' that is UoW, I have to admit it really motivates me to read Consider Phlebas. I wish I'd ordered it now actually, along with my large order.. but it'll have to wait until I've finished the current batch.
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Jan 12, 2014 23:25
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Pretty much every Culture novel has a significant proportion dedicated to philosophical musing on the nature of the Culture so maybe read some more and maybe you'll get it.
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Jan 12, 2014 23:26
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Consider Phlebas is an awesome book, but you do get a sense that some aspects of the Culture universe are not fully fleshed out yet. I would definitely agree with the general consensus that UoW/PoG are the best intros to the Culture as a whole. As for dealing with the Sublimed, that's mostly the last book The Hydrogen Sonata, and I guess somewhat in Excession.
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Jan 12, 2014 23:29
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I think one of the reasons The Culture uses humans for SC work because they realize that there is a possibility that they might some day come into conflict with another species of equivalent or superior technological advancement. Dropping a T-1000 onto some medieval world is not easy, it's lazy and it won't help when facing someone with better machines than you. Relying on fallible and unpredictable humans to get things done teaches the Minds how to be clever instead of just smart. There's also the "do unto others as you would have them do to you" aspect of things. There are entities that can destroy Culture ships by thinking hard, if one of them decides that they know what's best for the Culture and decide to intervene directly in their affairs, they can't exactly complain if SC's been doing the same thing to less advanced races. At least this way when the higher powers decide to meddle (and they do meddle), they're courteous enough to use proxies and give the Culture a chance to affect the outcome.
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Jan 13, 2014 01:29
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WeAreTheRomans posted:Consider Phlebas is an awesome book, but you do get a sense that some aspects of the Culture universe are not fully fleshed out yet. I would definitely agree with the general consensus that UoW/PoG are the best intros to the Culture as a whole. As for dealing with the Sublimed, that's mostly the last book The Hydrogen Sonata, and I guess somewhat in Excession. I usually agree that PoG and UoW are the best intro books, but thinking about it from a different perspective, I think they are the best intro books from the perspective of learning about The Culture. With regard to Bank's literary/scifi mashup skills, I think now that Consider Pheblas is actually a better introduction, since while it also deals with some weighty themes, but they're placed around awesome action set pieces in traditional scifi settings.
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Jan 13, 2014 15:19
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Tony Montana posted:No poo poo. I've only read UoW, there are other civilizations more advanced than The Culture? So using humans with humans is political as much as anything else. Mind blown, dudes, cheers There are probably no corporeal civilisations more advanced. There are a few about or close to equal (Matter goes a fair bit into detail about one called the Morthanveld, which is kind of like the Culture of water-creatures, and The Hydrogen Sonata involves another civilisation on that level that nearly joined the Culture thousands of years ago but chose not to) and there are quite a lot of civilisations that are sufficiently close that the Culture can't just play God with impunity with them or others that they're concerned with without being found out. The Culture are actually pretty much past due to Sublime and ascend to the next level of existence, by the way these things normally go, but they're too stubborn to. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 10:35
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From that Wiki page on the Sublime: The Culture's relationship with sublimation is one of mutual suspicion, not least of all because the spontaneous nature of most sublimation suggests coercion (Look to Windward). Perhaps more importantly, though, because sublimation usually results in an end to relations with the material universe and consequently with those less advanced civilisations still struggling to make their way within it, the Culture view it as somewhat decadent and/or lacking in proper public spirit. What little contact has been had with the Sublimed races suggests that they consider the Culture to be somewhat irresponsible and immature for having existed so long in such an advanced state of development without subliming. Heh. Such do-gooders edit: oh hey, something else I read was that the Culture has 'back up' technology, as it can store completely a sentience and squirt it into a another biological or artificial 'shell'. This is the driving force behind Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon and opens up a huge amount of plot and plot resolution potential.. as the technology is disruptive to much of the logic we apply to life. Is this explored in detail such as in Morgan's book or is it just another of the magical things the Culture can do? Tony Montana fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 11:35
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I haven't read Morgan, but those issues do play significant roles in several of the Culture novels. If you want to read more about it (and related issues, such as the ethics of simulating life, duplication, etc) I can recommend Surface Detail, the plot of which revolves almost entirely around the issue of backing up (and simulating) life/consciousness. It's explored in other novels as well. I think Look to Windward discusses it too but from a more day-to-day practical sense, such as backing yourself up before you do some extremely dangerous sport. It also comes up in other novels in a military sense when agents back themselves up in the full knowledge they will probably die. It's an interesting issue and one that's been discussed in this thread before.
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Jan 14, 2014 12:01
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For the most part it's pretty much just a fact of life. Culture people really don't give much of a poo poo. They live in perfect safety anyway most of the time (their tech is all smart enough not to let them get hurt and Windward mentions an example given about a person who falls off something and Hub hears their scream through the terminal and Displaces an antigrav platform to catch them before they hit the ground and die), they choose whatever they like about their bodies including when to age and die if they want to, and they can safely experience whatever they want that is dangerous in Sim; practically they're already immortal so backups don't change that much. It's just another layer of security on top of the already ridiculous amount. There are probably places within the Culture where people treat death as a hobby and use the backups repeatedly, but hey, there's an Orbital for everyone. The consequences of easy Simming entire minds is a whole other issue, and one dealt with in a fair bit of detail. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 12:06
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That's a good point. In Morgan's book, they are nowhere near the advancement of the Culture.. probably more like a Trek level. So it's a big deal to them and it makes travel interesting (you don't actually take your body across the Galaxy, how wasteful, just beam your consciousness in a transmission where you want to go and if you'd like to be a pert blonde when you get there.. whatevs, man). You could also have custom designed shells for applications, go for a swimming holiday on a waterworld and be a fish-creature. But yes, the Culture being on the cusp of sublimation negates much of this. I guess the technology gets so advanced that you don't need to be too concerned with the meat as it can be preserved and manipulated with such incomprehensible levels of accuracy and reliability. If we can sim to the point that it's indistinguishable from reality, with FTL comms, that opens up a whole way of going about things in itself (you might remember me talking about the 'sim ship' in the Trek thread, MikeJF, and for all you guys Tad William's Otherland is the best exploration I've read into these concepts). There is a little backing up in UoW, Sma needs to upload for her doppleganger, so it can continue what she was doing while she zooms off in pursuit of Zak.
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Jan 14, 2014 12:33
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MikeJF posted:For the most part it's pretty much just a fact of life. Culture people really don't give much of a poo poo. They live in perfect safety anyway most of the time (their tech is all smart enough not to let them get hurt and Windward mentions an example given about a person who falls off something and Hub hears their scream through the terminal and Displaces an antigrav platform to catch them before they hit the ground and die), they choose whatever they like about their bodies including when to age and die if they want to, and they can safely experience whatever they want that is dangerous in Sim; practically they're already immortal so backups don't change that much. It's just another layer of security on top of the already ridiculous amount. Simming minds and backups are very closely related though because the first is pretty much a requisite for the second, in a fashion, and you run into the same issues. Is the backup/sim really me? Will I experience a continuity of life or will this version of me die before the second (whether sim or backup) replaces me? And one of my favourites, what happens when you duplicate me? The same questions can be raised when it comes to teleportation, especially when it's done like in Star Trek. I think Banks circumvents that issue with the Displacement technology, I think, since it relies on wormholes and whatnot so there is no actual matter->data->matter transfer.
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Jan 14, 2014 12:41
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Tony Montana posted:(you don't actually take your body across the Galaxy, how wasteful, just beam your consciousness in a transmission where you want to go and if you'd like to be a pert blonde when you get there.. whatevs, man) Oh, they do that, but a lot of people (although by no means all) just don't like to use it because of the philosophical implications. (Beaming your brain across the galaxy, that is. Pert blonde they do whenever.)
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Jan 14, 2014 12:53
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Could you explain the philosophical implications? You're not more than bits of data on a datastream for a period?
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Jan 14, 2014 13:12
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I think it's that the person whose brain was beamed is still there (and active, not in stasis or something like a backup body). So is the body or drone or whatever that receives the personality data just a copy or an actual separate individual?
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Jan 14, 2014 14:01
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Jesus. Duplication and transmission are different things. If you're doing transmission surely the original being must get marching orders to the spare parts tank.
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Jan 14, 2014 14:05
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MikeJF posted:There are probably places within the Culture where people treat death as a hobby and use the backups repeatedly, but hey, there's an Orbital for everyone. look to windward has an extended scene in which a bunch of culture humans go lava rafting and several of them are incinerated to no major dismay among the rest, i think. it's been a while since i read it though. Ed: beaten of course.
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Jan 14, 2014 14:25
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I think looking at it from the other side is also interesting. Sure, after you die while lava rafting and they put together a perfect duplicate of you with all your memories somewhere in a smug GSV's bioengineering tube, maybe it's not really you and you are really dead for good, but at least all your family and friends and whoever else still get to hang out with someone close enough to you that they won't have to mourn you. Good enough.
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Jan 14, 2014 14:36
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Vanadium posted:I think looking at it from the other side is also interesting. Sure, after you die while lava rafting and they put together a perfect duplicate of you with all your memories somewhere in a smug GSV's bioengineering tube, maybe it's not really you and you are really dead for good, but at least all your family and friends and whoever else still get to hang out with someone close enough to you that they won't have to mourn you. Good enough. I still think the best use of this is in Matter when (and I think I'm remembering this correctly) Anaplian contemplates that although she is going to be resurrected, she won't be the same person as the last back up was a week or so earlier, and she has changed in that time. It doesn't ask the typical Star Trek transporter dilemma but I do think it puts an interesting spin on it.
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Jan 14, 2014 14:45
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Amused Frog posted:I still think the best use of this is in Matter when (and I think I'm remembering this correctly) Anaplian contemplates that although she is going to be resurrected, she won't be the same person as the last back up was a week or so earlier, and she has changed in that time. That's pretty extreme circumstances, though, since normally a neural lace can stream a live back-up, but she was out of any contact so deep in the shellworld. And even so, it's hinted that she might have gotten a mental image away - she releases two pieces of 'insurance' she at the falls; one is the antimatter charges used to signal the ship, the other never comes back into play so far as I can tell. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 14:53
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Also in matter is the pilot of the Bliterator, I forget her name, which addresses the fact that the back-up doesn't save you, you still die. It just makes a copy of you that lives on, and while it's a copy down to the molecular level, there's not transference-of-consciousness, no waking up in another body; you die, and the you-robot wakes up elsewhere.
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Jan 14, 2014 15:27
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