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So can anyone provide some perspective on the war crime trial of Japanese General Masaharu Homma? I was reading an older, non-scholarly book on World War 2 that had been published in the mid-60's that brought him up and it was my first time hearing about him. The author seemed to think his death sentence was mainly the result of MacArthur being in charge of setting up the trial of the general who drove him out of the Philippines. I mean on one hand Homma was the overall commander during the whole Bataan Death March, but on the other hand it seems as if he was never directly involved with the march itself and gave orders against harsh treatment. In addition he was removed from command by his higher-ups for being perceived to be too easy on Filipinos and I can easily accept the idea that MacArthur acted like a petty, murderous rear end in a top hat. Could anyone more familiar with the details involved give me a better picture about whether this guy was actually worthy of the label of war criminal?
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Jan 13, 2014 12:26
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veekie posted:Probably dates all the way back to ancient Sumer. No bet.
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Jan 13, 2014 15:19
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veekie posted:Probably dates all the way back to ancient Sumer. "Your wives are farting on other dudes' laps"?
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Jan 13, 2014 15:26
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Speaking of Russian war art, I was made aware of this: http://www.goldschp.net/SIG/onfim/onfim.html 12th century doodles of soldiers by a small boy 
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Jan 13, 2014 15:38
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Fangz posted:Speaking of Russian war art, I was made aware of this: It's unsettling to get this slow creep of horror as you realize these are pictures of war brutality as experienced by a young kid. And not the semi-sanitized experience of a young kid hiding in subways as London gets the hell pounded out of it. People getting hacked up with swords, run through by cavalry, chased down and slaughtered. All the while this kid is dutifully drawing pictures, seemingly oblivious to the human toll of the world being ripped apart around him. Maybe he actually was a complete blubbering mess, maybe he was a total  and wanted to make sure he drew accurate accounts of wanton destruction.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:01
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The Entire Universe posted:It's unsettling to get this slow creep of horror as you realize these are pictures of war brutality as experienced by a young kid. And not the semi-sanitized experience of a young kid hiding in subways as London gets the hell pounded out of it. People getting hacked up with swords, run through by cavalry, chased down and slaughtered. All the while this kid is dutifully drawing pictures, seemingly oblivious to the human toll of the world being ripped apart around him. Maybe he actually was a complete blubbering mess, maybe he was a total What the gently caress are you talking about? Also, Fangz, the drawings are 13th century, not 12th. The archaeological excavations put it at 1224-1238.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:10
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The Entire Universe posted:It's unsettling to get this slow creep of horror as you realize these are pictures of war brutality as experienced by a young kid. And not the semi-sanitized experience of a young kid hiding in subways as London gets the hell pounded out of it. People getting hacked up with swords, run through by cavalry, chased down and slaughtered. All the while this kid is dutifully drawing pictures, seemingly oblivious to the human toll of the world being ripped apart around him. Maybe he actually was a complete blubbering mess, maybe he was a total Er. It's not like he's being a war journalist. I imagine he just grew up on stories of awesome warrior dudes beating up bad guys, so that's what he drew. From what we know of this area in this period, things were fairly prosperous - indeed the literacy level was very high, extending to both women and children, and being used for various trivial purposes. He wrote his name next to the dude on the horse. quote:Also, Fangz, the drawings are 13th century, not 12th. The archaeological excavations put it at 1224-1238. Whoops.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:14
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Fangz posted:Er. It's not like he's being a war journalist. I imagine he just grew up on stories of awesome warrior dudes beating up bad guys, so that's what he drew. From what we know of this area in this period, things were fairly prosperous - indeed the literacy level was very high, extending to both women and children, and being used for various trivial purposes. That's because he is the dude on the horse. JESUS CHRIST, the Novogorodians were using child soldiers!!! This poor, wretched child!!!!
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Jan 13, 2014 16:16
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The Entire Universe posted:It's unsettling to get this slow creep of horror as you realize these are pictures of war brutality as experienced by a young kid. And not the semi-sanitized experience of a young kid hiding in subways as London gets the hell pounded out of it. People getting hacked up with swords, run through by cavalry, chased down and slaughtered. All the while this kid is dutifully drawing pictures, seemingly oblivious to the human toll of the world being ripped apart around him. Maybe he actually was a complete blubbering mess, maybe he was a total I drew lots of pictures of planes bombing the poo poo out of buildings and dogs ripping off people's arms and stuff. I did not see such things, I used my 'imagination'.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:16
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Obdicut posted:I drew lots of pictures of planes bombing the poo poo out of buildings and dogs ripping off people's arms and stuff. I did not see such things, I used my 'imagination'. Well you and I probably saw that poo poo on TV.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:21
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Obdicut posted:I drew lots of pictures of planes bombing the poo poo out of buildings and dogs ripping off people's arms and stuff. I did not see such things, I used my 'imagination'. Yeah, same here. He was a kid in school bored out of his mind and started to doodle. I mean for fucks sake there is a picture of him turning into a dragon and spitting fire.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:22
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Boy with warrior-dad imagines himself as a warrior, doodles during his boring lesson. The horror.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:25
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Koesj posted:Well you and I probably saw that poo poo on TV. No, I never saw a dog rip a dude's arm off on TV. I wasn't even really allowed to watch violent movies, the most I saw was old John Ford Westerns where the guy'll grab his chest as he gets arrowed. They're really awesome and interesting drawings partially because of how similar they are to stuff I would have drawn and also that I am a really terrible artist because they're actually better than anything I could have ever managed.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:26
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He wrote he was a wild beast - lycanthropy proven.
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Jan 13, 2014 16:57
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I was thinking more along the lines of his town being invaded and people just getting murdered left and right, not that he was some jaded soldier. I just thought it was kind of  to find this kid drawing pictures of people getting skewered or hacked up, under the assumption that he was seeing it go on around him. Like some crayon drawing of a house with the kid, his dad, and mom up in the sky because she died a painful and lingering death of cancer or something - that juxtaposition of bad thing happening with childlike naïveté.
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Jan 13, 2014 17:18
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Fangz posted:Speaking of Russian war art, I was made aware of this:
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Jan 13, 2014 17:46
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Arquinsiel posted:This is noted Sage, Scribe, Chronicler of the Ages, Mighty Warrior and generally accepted all-around Badass Onfim, favourite historian of the thread. One day maybe future kids will breathe fire and ride giraffes and fight over who gets to be Onfim.
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Jan 13, 2014 18:08
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The Entire Universe posted:I was thinking more along the lines of his town being invaded and people just getting murdered left and right, not that he was some jaded soldier. Yes but that is a ridiculous assumption and is not one which someone who has interacted with Human Boy-Children at any point in their life would make.
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Jan 13, 2014 20:25
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I had a question regarding the fate of the French fleet in World War II , after France's surrender. It seemed odd that such a mobile asset wasn't moved to Allied ports to fight on. Was that because of Anglo-French relations, or did France fear German retailation if they gave the fleet away?
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Jan 13, 2014 20:30
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Mojo Threepwood posted:I had a question regarding the fate of the French fleet in World War II , after France's surrender. It seemed odd that such a mobile asset wasn't moved to Allied ports to fight on. Was that because of Anglo-French relations, or did France fear German retailation if they gave the fleet away? The British tried to insist that the French fleet come over, but the admiral in charge wasn't willing to do that without explicit orders to, and the British admiral's orders were something to the effect of "if they won't do it, immediately blow it all up."
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Jan 13, 2014 20:32
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Admiral Darlan basically told Churchill that the navy would not surrender its fleet to the Germans and would remain in port for the duration of the war; Churchill clearly didn't agree with this assessment, hence the attack on Mers-el-Kebir. Turns out, when the Germans did actually try to seize what was left of the fleet at Toulon in 1942, the rest of the boats were scuttled by the French immediately, adding more fuel to the idea that the British attack was wholly unnecessary and kind of dickish. The British stance on the attack at the time was simply to show the Germans that they weren't loving around for this war.
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Jan 13, 2014 20:43
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Mojo Threepwood posted:I had a question regarding the fate of the French fleet in World War II , after France's surrender. It seemed odd that such a mobile asset wasn't moved to Allied ports to fight on. Was that because of Anglo-French relations, or did France fear German retailation if they gave the fleet away? The French fleet was pretty much (proto-)Vichy France's only bargaining chip at the peace negotiations at Compiègne. The threat to the Germans was that if you continue the invasion we'll take the fleet and what's left of the army and retreat to Morocco and Algeria and then use the fleet against you in the Mediterranean. Add in that they made sure that Germany knew the French navy was ready to scuttle itself if Germany tried anything. So Hitler figured he'd let Vichy have some concessions rather than have the French fleet turn against him. However this was not enough for the British who saw that if the French turned against them it would more or less neutralise their numerical superiority at sea. So in the words of Winston Churchill "You are charged with one of the most disagreeable tasks that a British Admiral has ever been faced with, but we have complete confidence in you and rely on you to carry it out relentlessly." The British Admiralty ordered the neutralization of the French fleet. French ships in British ports were seized and an ultimatum was delivered to the portion of the French Fleet based at Mers-el-Kebir in Algeria. Basically the Ultimatum said you have a couple of options either defect to Britain,take your ships and sail them to America and have them disarmed there or sink them yourselves. The French waffled though and in the end the British Fleet attacked and crippled most of the French ships that were based there. Needless to say this was very unpopular within France and nearly resulted in the Vichy regime declaring war on the UK and almost scuppered De Gaulle before he got started. It wasn't all bad though I suppose because this act of calculated ruthlessness convinced Roosevelt that Britain would be willing to fight on and led to him pushing strongly for Lend-Lease.
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Jan 13, 2014 20:56
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Yes but that is a ridiculous assumption and is not one which someone who has interacted with Human Boy-Children at any point in their life would make. Well, me. Edit:  Onfim's incredulous with and disappointed at this thread. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 13, 2014 |
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Jan 13, 2014 21:17
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What ever childhood traumas Onfim was suffering from, at least he wasn't drawing furry asslicking porn. TTBOOK...
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Jan 13, 2014 21:28
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Ferrosol posted:The French fleet was pretty much (proto-)Vichy France's only bargaining chip at the peace negotiations at Compiègne. The threat to the Germans was that if you continue the invasion we'll take the fleet and what's left of the army and retreat to Morocco and Algeria and then use the fleet against you in the Mediterranean. Add in that they made sure that Germany knew the French navy was ready to scuttle itself if Germany tried anything. So Hitler figured he'd let Vichy have some concessions rather than have the French fleet turn against him. gently caress Vichy France, I don't know why this was controversial at all.
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Jan 13, 2014 23:14
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Because more than a thousand people died.a travelling HEGEL posted:Or girls.  Don't worry Hegel. edit: I still draw brave champions and ferocious beasts and poo poo Koramei fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Jan 13, 2014 23:22
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Not asking you specifically, but are there any good biographies on Patton or any other good resources for looking him up? Obviously you're not a tremendous fan of him, but I'm curious if there are any good sources that compare his reputation to his actual acomplishments. Can't help you there sorry. I would like to state that while I do enjoy hating on Patton he wasn't a godawful commander. He was bold and reckless which the US army both could afford and badly needed due to the loads of poor generals they had. If he was an eastern front commander he'd probably get his units cut off a lot. Really my biggest problem with him is that while he wasn't publicity crazy like MacArthur his flamboyant-ness crowds out generals that were better than him from the history books. Like General Rose who was a better Patton in everyway, including jeep related deaths.
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Jan 13, 2014 23:26
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Koramei posted:Because more than a thousand people died. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Jan 13, 2014 23:26
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:gently caress Vichy France, I don't know why this was controversial at all. Um, because France was out of the war and you don't really have an obligation to keep fighting when your country has surrendered. It's easy to look back in hindsight and with the full knowledge of how horrific Nazi Germany was and think 'why wasn't everyone ready to fight to the end and do whatever it takes to win' but at the time it would have seemed perfectly likely to most French (and most people around the world) that the UK would quickly come to terms, and then with a general peace the world would go back to what it was with Germany having all its Versailles grievances settled and in a dominant position in Europe. Except the UK doesn't offer terms and the war keeps on going and the only thing to do next is invade Russia.
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Jan 13, 2014 23:29
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Also wasn't there some fuckup in the negotiations before the attack because I seem to recall Darlan giving orders allowing for the ships to be moved to America if someone tried to grab them?
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Jan 13, 2014 23:32
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Alchenar posted:Um, because France was out of the war and you don't really have an obligation to keep fighting when your country has surrendered. Thank you for the explanations, that makes a lot more sense. That is important about how the war hadn't escalated yet and that they thought peace would come soon. I didn't know about the impact on Lend-lease either. Another question, is the image of Axis prisoners held in USA and Canada being so impressed by their treatment that they decided to migrate post-war accurate? Like the ordinary infantry caught in 1942 in Africa and locked up in Alabama, were there high odds they would bring families over later?
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Jan 14, 2014 00:37
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Didn't just happen there. A lot of pilots were shot down over Ireland and while the British were kept relatively well locked up in the Curragh base the Germans were allowed wander around freely and even given money to spend in the local towns. A few of them stayed post-war.
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Jan 14, 2014 00:44
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Here is an example of why I keep saying that it's a lot easier to deal with people who go to war because they believe they can gain from it than people who do it for ideological reasons. You can deal with the first category. The second is harder to predict.
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Jan 14, 2014 01:46
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Arquinsiel posted:Didn't just happen there. A lot of pilots were shot down over Ireland and while the British were kept relatively well locked up in the Curragh base the Germans were allowed wander around freely and even given money to spend in the local towns. A few of them stayed post-war. Heh, its interesting you say that, when I was in school one of the things they were quick to teach us was that all the German pilots were locked up tighter than a Las Vegas virgin while the British pilots 'escaped' back into the north. Of course when I was in school there was a huge emphasis that Ireland was really secretly one of the allies you guys.
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Jan 14, 2014 04:42
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Didn't the Irish government literally send a message of condolences to Germany upon the announcement of Hitler's death? Nice guys.
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Jan 14, 2014 04:46
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Mojo Threepwood posted:Another question, is the image of Axis prisoners held in USA and Canada being so impressed by their treatment that they decided to migrate post-war accurate? Like the ordinary infantry caught in 1942 in Africa and locked up in Alabama, were there high odds they would bring families over later? I remember reading a book about the POW experience in the US and such. Apparently the appeal of living in a country that hadn't been bombed to poo poo/invaded by soviets/blockaded was pretty strong. There was a general sense of "man holy poo poo look at all this stuff that's normal and intact". Another fun thing was dealing with people who had escaped from the POW camps after the war ended. Remember that it's a duty of a soldier to try to escape when captured, so you can't charge them with any crime for escaping. wdarkk fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 04:50
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khwarezm posted:Heh, its interesting you say that, when I was in school one of the things they were quick to teach us was that all the German pilots were locked up tighter than a Las Vegas virgin while the British pilots 'escaped' back into the north. Of course when I was in school there was a huge emphasis that Ireland was really secretly one of the allies you guys. Shimrra Jamaane posted:Didn't the Irish government literally send a message of condolences to Germany upon the announcement of Hitler's death? Nice guys. 
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Jan 14, 2014 04:51
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Didn't the Irish government literally send a message of condolences to Germany upon the announcement of Hitler's death? Nice guys.
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Jan 14, 2014 05:59
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Say what you will, but he was the man who killed Hitler. In a similar vein I'm of the opinion that Goering should be given a medal for doing the most of any one person to bring about the fall of the 3rd Reich.
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Jan 14, 2014 06:07
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Raskolnikov38 posted:In a similar vein I'm of the opinion that Goering should be given a medal for doing the most of any one person to bring about the fall of the 3rd Reich. Ferdinand Porsche should get a Hero of Socialist Labour, for sure.
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