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Skwirl posted:While Nightcrawler has spent plenty of time being melancholy, there's also a huge amount of his past where he's running around being a happy go-lucky swashbuckling ladykiller. And I don't ever recall him really being bummed out over his quasi-demonic appearance, even though (or maybe because) his physical mutations manifested at birth instead of puberty like most mutants.
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Jan 14, 2014 04:42
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McSpanky posted:And I don't ever recall him really being bummed out over his quasi-demonic appearance, even though (or maybe because) his physical mutations manifested at birth instead of puberty like most mutants. Yeah, isn't it usually just about him liking a girl he can't have (I'm basing this mostly on Claremont's Excalibur, which is the most recent thing I've read with a lot of Nightcrawler, and even then it's because she's with Captain Britain, nothing to do with her being repulsed by his appearance).
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Jan 14, 2014 04:47
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I'm not going to check but didn't Nightcrawler used to creep on Kitty when she was still underage and he wasn't?
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Jan 14, 2014 04:49
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I just remember Nightcrawler used to use the image inducer and a lot of I look like a monster.
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Jan 14, 2014 04:52
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They gave Nightcrawler an image inducer pretty much from the get-go so he that was generally not an issue, but he also spent plenty of arcs having crisis of faith over thinking he was a demon. And yeah in Excalibur he mostly wanted to hit on Meggan Lurdiak posted:I'm not going to check but didn't Nightcrawler used to creep on Kitty when she was still underage and he wasn't? I think it was just more him playfully hitting on any woman he could. Though I have vague recollections of a story with him setting his image inducer to a young Burt Reynolds and having Kitty and Illyana swoon over him. E: I think that last bit is from the annual with the Impossible Man actually Kalli fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 04:54
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bobkatt013 posted:I just remember Nightcrawler used to use the image inducer and a lot of I look like a monster. Kurt was pretty cool... he acknowledged that he looked demonic, but didn't obsess or angst about it overmuch. quote:I'm not going to check but didn't Nightcrawler used to creep on Kitty when she was still underage and he wasn't? Lemme guess, Claremont?
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Jan 14, 2014 04:56
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Lurdiak posted:I'm not going to check but didn't Nightcrawler used to creep on Kitty when she was still underage and he wasn't?
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Jan 14, 2014 04:56
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McSpanky posted:And I don't ever recall him really being bummed out over his quasi-demonic appearance, even though (or maybe because) his physical mutations manifested at birth instead of puberty like most mutants. Doesn't that make him Homo Killcrop?
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Jan 14, 2014 04:57
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Kalli posted:I think it was just more him playfully hitting on any woman he could. Though I have vague recollections of a story with him setting his image inducer to a young Burt Reynolds and having Kitty and Illyana swoon over him. I think it was from his 80's LS, where he got to be an interdimensional swashbuckler. Dopey but fun. A dude posted:Doesn't that make him Homo Killcrop? IMHO, the whole "killcrop" bit was something Damian Tryp pulled out of his rear end.
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Jan 14, 2014 05:10
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Lurdiak posted:I'm not going to check but didn't Nightcrawler used to creep on Kitty when she was still underage and he wasn't? New one on me. They were good friends, but I never recall anything like that. You might be thinking of Colossus, where this was definitely a thing (Colossus was nineteen and Kitty fourteen or so) that was a subplot at the time. At that time there were more hints of Ororo and Kurt for a good while (something that's persisted on and off over the years). Honestly, Kurt was giving Wolverine a run for his money in regards to his love life. Hell, they were practically inseparable for a long time: playing pranks on each other, bar-hopping, etc.  That was back when Nightcrawler was fun and before someone had the thought that putting a "demon" into a priest's smock was clever and ironic (it wasn't).bobkatt013 posted:I just remember Nightcrawler used to use the image inducer and a lot of I look like a monster. This came along in the mid-late 90's, after he became somber, self-loathing and  . Because early on and for a good while, he had plush dolls (Bamf dolls) of himself that he'd give out.  Sadly, the Nightcrawler people seem to remember is the polar opposite of the character he'd been for 20-25 years prior. Which is a shame, because he was infinitely more interesting back then: a guy with a demonic appearance who embraced it and never let it be the reason of keeping him from succeeding (and exceeding) what he'd set out to do. It also gave perspective to the  "woe is me" mutants who were in reality far more fortunate than he was.Edit: Far more  than I initially intended, but he really was one of my favorite characters for a long, long time.
Ghostpilot fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 06:18
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Ghostpilot posted:New one on me. They were good friends, but I never recall anything like that. You might be thinking of Colossus, where this was definitely a thing (Colossus was nineteen and Kitty fourteen or so) that was a subplot at the time. Whose the woman in that, and what issue?
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Jan 14, 2014 06:22
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Ghostpilot posted:New one on me. They were good friends, but I never recall anything like that. You might be thinking of Colossus, where this was definitely a thing (Colossus was nineteen and Kitty fourteen or so) that was a subplot at the time. Looking it up I was thinking of very early Nightcrawler and late Nightcrawler. Not this Nightcrawler from 130 
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Jan 14, 2014 06:25
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Skwirl posted:Whose the woman in that, and what issue? That's Amanda Sefton, back in Uncanny X-Men #168. Edit: vvv Foster sister, but yeah.  (I didn't know that until later.)
Ghostpilot fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 06:33
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Ghostpilot posted:That's Amanda Sefton, back in Uncanny X-Men #168. Who is also his sister 
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Jan 14, 2014 07:10
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Skwirl posted:Yeah, isn't it usually just about him liking a girl he can't have (I'm basing this mostly on Claremont's Excalibur, which is the most recent thing I've read with a lot of Nightcrawler, and even then it's because she's with Captain Britain, nothing to do with her being repulsed by his appearance). Sometimes he seemed to be after Meggan more than Wolverine was after Jean. Anyway, as regards his appearance, by the time they got to Excalibur, he was a handsome swashbuckler who looked like Errol Flynn, so he didn't really have that much reason to angst. Of course, that's probably just Alan Davis; Phoenix went from being skinny and waifish to looking like this (although in this case, she got a new body in Mojoworld in a Claremont story). Jerusalem posted:Who is also his sister "Ohboy!"
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Jan 14, 2014 11:52
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Yeah, I love Alan Davis, but he's one of those artists who are physically incapable of drawing women as anything else but babes and men as Greek gods.
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Jan 14, 2014 15:49
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Probably why he got to draw the Women of Marvel covers.
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Jan 14, 2014 16:17
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Metal Loaf posted:Probably why he got to draw the Women of Marvel covers. They should probably skip a few of those decades, though.                Or you know, end the comic with Reed Richards having to take a loving class or something, Jesus.
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Jan 14, 2014 16:40
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What's the common consensus on the worst Fantastic Four run? Englehart? DeFalco? One of the non-descript ones from the 1970s when they had really naff villains like Janus the Nega-Man and Salem's Seven?
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Jan 14, 2014 16:46
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Is Johnny relaxing in the fetal position? Panel 2: Daredevil: "poo poo, man, don't drag me into this!"
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Jan 14, 2014 16:53
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DarkCrawler posted:They should probably skip a few of those decades, though. And he's still the least evil Reed of any possible other universe.
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Jan 14, 2014 16:56
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Wow. Did writers have a hate on for Sue or just women in general?
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Jan 14, 2014 18:11
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It was a different time for gender politics. The 60's, y'know. Mad Men. Cigars. Invisible girls. And every decade following all the way up to, and including, the nineties.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:14
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Also the fact that Reed is a giant rear end in a top hat
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Jan 14, 2014 18:21
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John Byrne is responsible for at least some of that, and he definitely has a problem with women, or at the very least his work does. The rest is mostly just "being written in the 1960s". If it helps contextualize, Stan Lee was trying to be progressive by having "gender war" stuff in the era of "women's lib". Some characters were old-fashioned, others were trying to express the idea that women are equal to men. He just didn't do a very good job of it, so it tends to look like the men are horrible sexists and that he endorses it. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 18:22
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Yeah, in the Lee/Kirby FF Reed's patriarch stance was supposed to be a character flaw, but it was never really hit hard enough to make it go past problematic.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:32
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DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, I love Alan Davis, but he's one of those artists who are physically incapable of drawing women as anything else but babes and men as Greek gods. I think it was Excalibur #16 that had a recaptioned panel on its letter page -- Rachel in this barely-there medieval suit, a sword in each hand, yelling "WHAT DO YOU MEAN I WON'T HAVE ALAN DAVIS DRAWING ME NEXT ISSUE?"  (also yes Kitty just shanked someone)
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Jan 14, 2014 18:33
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DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, I love Alan Davis, but he's one of those artists who are physically incapable of drawing women as anything else but babes and men as Greek gods. I love it; in that same panel of Pin-up Queen Phoenix, Kurt is standing right next to her basking in the glory of being Midnight Blue Errol Flynn.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:45
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Reed Richards is modeling for some combination of  and  , I see.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:48
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Metal Loaf posted:What's the common consensus on the worst Fantastic Four run? Englehart? DeFalco? One of the non-descript ones from the 1970s when they had really naff villains like Janus the Nega-Man and Salem's Seven? I'd definitely vote Englehart. Most of the 70's runs at least had something to recommend them. John Buscema's art, the divorce storyline from around 140-150 (where Namor tricks everyone into getting them back together), Perez doing art on the next run, or Conway's big Doom showdown around issue 200. Millar and DeFalco have plenty of dumb ideas, but Englehart is just telling awful stories with ugly art. He also seemed to think he'd get great mileage out of a newly married Johnny Storm being around Crystal, but she's married too and there's really no tension at all. Lurdiak posted:John Byrne is responsible for at least some of that, and he definitely has a problem with women, or at the very least his work does. The rest is mostly just "being written in the 1960s". I know it's cool to hate on Byrne for all the dumb stuff he says/does, but only two panels (from one story) are Byrne's, and they're both Reed obviously trying to be a dick to get Sue to snap out of being mind-controlled. Byrne's the one that had her change her name (after calling herself "Invisible Girl" for 20 years), that showcased her powers in new ways, and otherwise finished the transition of her being a Stan Lee waif into a pretty cool character. I mean, if you go back to 1975, the writers both permanently boost her powers from Lee/Kirby levels and show her saving the day for the first time in ages, just so that fans would stop writing in that her character should retire or die and get replaced by Crystal or Thundra.
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Jan 14, 2014 19:11
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Defalco's run had the Thing Helmet, the boob window, and Hyperstorm. It's no contest.
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Jan 14, 2014 19:26
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laz0rbeak posted:I'd definitely vote Englehart. Most of the 70's runs at least had something to recommend them. John Buscema's art, the divorce storyline from around 140-150 (where Namor tricks everyone into getting them back together), Perez doing art on the next run, or Conway's big Doom showdown around issue 200. Millar and DeFalco have plenty of dumb ideas, but Englehart is just telling awful stories with ugly art. He also seemed to think he'd get great mileage out of a newly married Johnny Storm being around Crystal, but she's married too and there's really no tension at all. I'm maybe not the best judge because I sort of liked bits and pieces of the Claremont and Pacheco/Marin/Loeb runs... 
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Jan 14, 2014 19:32
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Lurdiak posted:John Byrne is responsible for at least some of that, and he definitely has a problem with women, or at the very least his work does. The rest is mostly just "being written in the 1960s". Wow, it's a good thing that Stan Lee was pretty committed to civil rights because otherwise we'd have Thor yelling "friend of the family" for the first fifty issues and a separate The Adequate Negro X-Men comic book. 
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Jan 14, 2014 21:40
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Now look what you guys did:bobkatt013 posted:GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!!
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Jan 14, 2014 22:59
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DarkCrawler posted:Wow, it's a good thing that Stan Lee was pretty committed to civil rights because otherwise we'd have Thor yelling "friend of the family" for the first fifty issues and a separate The Adequate Negro X-Men comic book. Man, comics are so shameless. They're gonna steal Tyroc from DC too?
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Jan 14, 2014 23:06
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IUG posted:Now look what you guys did: Why are Marvel threatening us?! I didn't do anything!
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Jan 14, 2014 23:33
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IUG posted:Now look what you guys did: I am okay with this. Mainly because I don't give a gently caress about Nightcrawler so the risk isn't there and its nice that he is still getting the occasional book.
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Jan 14, 2014 23:41
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CharlestheHammer posted:I am okay with this. Read X-men and New Mutant Forever, and your tune will change. See also X-men The End.
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Jan 14, 2014 23:43
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IUG posted:Now look what you guys did: I wonder if they're going to use the AR stuff to help Claremont jam in more clunky dialog and exposition.
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Jan 14, 2014 23:50
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bobkatt013 posted:Read X-men and New Mutant Forever, and your tune will change. See also X-men The End. In X-Men: The End he made Nightcrawler into an actor who stared in James Bond movies produced by Jubilee. Nightcrawlers ultimate destiny was to become Timothy Dalton. I am 100% fine with that as a character arc for Kurt.
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