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I would take it to resemble something like what was described in the last Night Lords book. If the Ultramarines are in need, they are able to relatively easily request/bribe/marshall their successor chapters and focus them into a coherent fighting force much more easily than other chapters. Also despite the 500 worlds getting trashed, it still is laid out to have less disfunction than the rest of the Imperium, allowing other forces to be brought up more quickly Basically if something big and scary enough were to threaten the Ultras, they could theoretically roll up with another full chapter's worth of marines at minimum and around ten times that if you really asked for it. Though I thought the Black Templars were something approaching legion size last time I read their background. Has this changed?
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Jan 14, 2014 16:23
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I've heard that was retconned in the latest Space Marine codex, but since I don't play the tabletop game anymore I can't confirm.
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Jan 14, 2014 16:28
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Honestly i thought Guilliman was pretty clear on the codex astartes and that he wanted it such that no one could wield the strength of a legion ever again. So he had the legions split into fragments. I don't know exactly if the successors would be cool with them being told to do something that goes against Guilliman's writings. The Dark Angels from what i remember, did follow the codex, but since they are so gungho on being secretive. Set up the successor chapters in such a way that, that the command/hierarchy basically allows them to reform into a legion at a moments notice. Are the Dark Angels dicks to the normal people? I would imagine their basis as a knightly order would kind of force them to protect the weak. But if there is a fallen i imagine them telling everyone to go to hell and rushing off.
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Jan 14, 2014 17:20
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UberJumper posted:Are the Dark Angels dicks to the normal people? I would imagine their basis as a knightly order would kind of force them to protect the weak. But if there is a fallen i imagine them telling everyone to go to hell and rushing off. You are correct. Also they will kill you if you learn about the fallen. As for the Ultramarines, the split between them and their successors is really more or less dependent on how close any given successor chapter is to Ultramar. One on the other side of the galaxy probably doesn't give a poo poo, one within Ultramar itself might as well be Ultramarines.
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Jan 14, 2014 17:26
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VanSandman posted:You are correct. Also they will kill you if you learn about the fallen. Dark Angels are indeed dicks.
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Jan 14, 2014 18:49
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Andrej is awesome. He's meant to be that quirky, happy go-lucky guy that people can't help but like, and it's excellently done. He oozes that particular brand of personal charisma to the reader, and it's a trait that is subtly acknowledged by the rest of the book such as describing how he's waving and being waved at 'hello' by his fellow stormtroopers, Domoska being unable to stay mad at his irreverence, and the relationship he quickly develops with Maghernus and the men under him. And yet, he's not overly saccharine. He feels very real as a person and in the context of the setting: suitably religious and even a bit more pious than others around him, he's loyal and committed as befitting of someone of his station, and his personality is still stretched thin in the face of heavy combat or due to stress and fatigue. Something I particularly liked is how increasingly violent he becomes to those around him as the book goes on - people don't mind, and it's still at that level where it feels 'playful' rather than offensive or hostile, but paying attention you can tell it's a way to vent the stress he's being subjected to. Andrej is breaking down just like everyone else, he's just better at keeping it together. His survival can also be interpreted as a symbol of hope and keeping Grimaldus' personal connection to the people of Helsreach alive. It's another layer adding to his concluding epiphany. Shroud posted:To add to the grimness... Helsreach ending spoilers: ‘An oath is an oath.’ I have no idea what to say to the little man. ‘Your friend. Your love. Did you find her?’ I am no judge of human emotion, but I see his smile turn fragile and false. ‘Yes,’ he says. ‘I did find her.’ I think of the last time I saw the little storm-trooper, standing over the dockmaster’s bloody corpse, bayoneting an alien in the throat, only moments before the basilica fell. I find myself curiously glad that he is alive, but expressing that notion is not something I can easily forge into words. He has no such difficulty. ‘I am glad you made it,’ he uses my own unspoken words. ‘I heard you were very injured, yes?’ ‘Not enough to kill me.’ But so close. I quickly grew bored of the Apothecaries on board the Crusader telling me that it was a miracle I clawed my way from the rubble. He laughs, but there is little joy in it. His eyes are like glass since he mentioned finding his friend. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 18:53
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Yeah, the 40k Ultramar is something like 10-12 worlds, not the full five hundred you see in the Heresy.
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Jan 14, 2014 19:22
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ed balls balls man posted:Yeah, the 40k Ultramar is something like 10-12 worlds, not the full five hundred you see in the Heresy. Include the successor chapters, and the number becomes a lot closer to the old 500.
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Jan 14, 2014 19:27
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ed balls balls man posted:Yeah, the 40k Ultramar is something like 10-12 worlds, not the full five hundred you see in the Heresy. It's 50 in "modern" 40k
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Jan 14, 2014 19:59
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Sephyr posted:I thought that the Ultramarines were only chapter-strength and that their 500-world empire had been diminished in the Heresy and then split among their successor chapters, though they have an easy time in calling for the aid of their pals. They are but with some of the newer fluff, I think it's implied that a number of the First Legions like the Blood Angels and the Dark Angels can call for help and summon most of their successor chapters. There's a really good bit in Soul Reaver that describes the Ultramarines and their successors attacking in complete unity without any need for coordination due to the Codex. They might only have a thousand guys on paper but one phone call from the Chapter Master and you'll have everyone showing up. edit: I bought Blood and Fire and it serves as a pretty good sequel to Helsreach. Also Grimaldus is now pretty much the nicest Space Marine 
Kegslayer fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jan 14, 2014 |
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Jan 14, 2014 22:39
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Kegslayer posted:
Emmm...no. Unless they really like wiping their asses with the spirit of the Codex Astartes, even together the subdivided chapters are nothing like a legion in scope and capability. If Ultramar was besieged or something dire about to happen (Armaggedon-grade dire), you'd likely see dozens of chapters ban together under a chosen commander. The attack on Tsalguasa was an even rarer occasion than that, as a substantial portion of a traitor legion had to be mopped-up during the Scouring, when Guilliman was taking the lead in bringing the galaxy to a semblance of order. But gathering anything close to legion-sized strength on the fly? Harldy, especially since those chapters also have their turfs to protect and wars to fight. "We're barely holding the Necrons in check here, but Calgar is mad at the Inquisition, so pack up, boys! The local PDF can deal with those flying croissants for a decade or two."
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Jan 14, 2014 23:24
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You're familiar with how the Adeptus Astartes can be called into action by particular planetary lords or Inquisitors via pacts and agreements right? Same deal. Every sub chapter just pledges to answer the call of the wearer of the Gauntlets of Ultramar as long as they reasonably can do so.
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Jan 14, 2014 23:38
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Sephyr posted:Emmm...no. Unless they really like wiping their asses with the spirit of the Codex Astartes, even together the subdivided chapters are nothing like a legion in scope and capability. In some of the more recent stuff, you have the idea that while the rank and file obey the Codex Astartes to the letter, the more experienced higher ups understand that it's just a guideline. I mean there's no canon answer but the older fluff had the Dark Angels being able to call and utilise their successors on notice and in the newer fluff you have the Blood Angels being able to recall almost every successor chapter to defend their homeworld or say the Badab war where Huron was able to draw together a number of other chapters due to existing pacts. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine that Calgar could summon a shitload of resources if the Inquisition attacked Ultramar.
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Jan 15, 2014 01:12
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Finished Pariah. My verdict is that its worth a read for anyone who likes intrigue and intertwining plots. One problem I've heard about this book is that people are confused about who the book is about since Dan Abnet described it as Eisehorn vs Ravenor a couple of times. Seeing as to how it was written from the perspective of another character in the 1st person i can see why that would be the case. I'm sorry if I'm being a bit cryptic i just felt that this book has so much happening that i have to be extra cautious with spoilers. I can say that i did enjoy it immensely, it kept my interest all throughout. I can't wait for the next part. Edit: Also any one read path of the Eldar? is it worth reading? Kharn_The_Betrayer fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 01:46
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I just read Double Eagle. Definately a better ending than Titanicus, if not quite as fun because, well, Titans.
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Jan 15, 2014 01:48
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:Finished Pariah. My verdict is that its worth a read for anyone who likes intrigue and intertwining plots. It's weird because the title does seem like a swerve for much (too much) of the book, but it did get straightened out to my satisfaction. The main bad thing is that Abnett wrote the first part of a trilogy(?) and then hosed off to do other things for a while. 
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Jan 15, 2014 02:11
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Pariah's pretty good. The shift in perspective didn't bother me and I liked how Abnett slowly worked in Eisenhorn and Ravenor. The introduction of Eisenhorn is  as all hell in that book too. I'm looking forward to the next one even if it might be a while.
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Jan 15, 2014 02:25
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JerryLee posted:It's weird because the title does seem like a swerve for much (too much) of the book, but it did get straightened out to my satisfaction. The main bad thing is that Abnett wrote the first part of a trilogy(?) and then hosed off to do other things for a while. Apparently he's had to slow down his output in the last couple of years because of his health. From what i recall, he was diagnosed with epilepsy. Though i might be talking out of my rear end. Call me out on it if i am. I'm fine with it.
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Jan 15, 2014 04:28
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He was, but he has also been doing a lot of writing on his own stuff and for Marvell in the last couple of years. Bear in mind, there is a movie coming out soon of his version of the Guardians of the Galaxy.
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Jan 15, 2014 05:27
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Arquinsiel posted:He was, but he has also been doing a lot of writing on his own stuff and for Marvell in the last couple of years. Bear in mind, there is a movie coming out soon of his version of the Guardians of the Galaxy. I just looked at his Bibliography  I never knew Abnett wrote so much stuff. Does he ever sleep?
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Jan 15, 2014 06:48
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I got an email from Amazon today that apparently ADB's Talon of Horus got pushed to October from the April date when I first ordered it 
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Jan 15, 2014 07:13
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Pyrolocutus posted:I got an email from Amazon today that apparently ADB's Talon of Horus got pushed to October from the April date when I first ordered it I literally just pre-ordered it today. Dammit. Edit: Lord of the Night is good, if somewhat simple. It's Chris Wraight level good - not particularly complex characters, but good enough and with recognizable enough motives that you empathize with them. The Night Lords are pretty much my favorite traitors now. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 07:32
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Lord of the Night was really good for it's time where it's competition was garbage Dawn of War and Deathwatch books from C.S. Goto and the Black Templar's books by Jonathan Green. Although that year I think we got both the first Ravenor installment and a GG novel so can't complain too much.Fried Chicken posted:It's 50 in "modern" 40k Any sources for this? I can't find much more than either 11 solar systems or 11 worlds, stuff differs. I have the old Ultramarine's codex and it just lists a bunch of planets while one of the recent rulebooks lists 11 planets rather than systems. Standard 40k. ed balls balls man fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 08:26
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Pyrolocutus posted:I got an email from Amazon today that apparently ADB's Talon of Horus got pushed to October from the April date when I first ordered it Has there been any explanation for this? It seems to have completely vanished from BL's website now. It really seems like Black Library has been slowing down with the releases lately.
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Jan 15, 2014 23:35
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Safety Factor posted:Pariah's pretty good. The shift in perspective didn't bother me and I liked how Abnett slowly worked in Eisenhorn and Ravenor. The introduction of Eisenhorn is I really liked seeing how the subtitle actually came into play. It was in some ways subtle and in some ways utterly blatant. I also liked seeing the space marines portrayed viewed by normal folks. It was fun. What bothered me was that it didn't really feel finished - indeed, it felt more like an extended prologue than a book entire.
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Jan 16, 2014 00:05
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handbanana125 posted:Though I thought the Black Templars were something approaching legion size last time I read their background. Has this changed? I haven't read the new SM codex, but last I heard the Black Templars were slightly above legion size and attracting high-up attention because of that.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:02
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"Legion sized" is not a fixed number. It seems to be anything from 10 to 100 thousand marines depending on which Legion you look at.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:04
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Arquinsiel posted:"Legion sized" is not a fixed number. It seems to be anything from 10 to 100 thousand marines depending on which Legion you look at. I think it's usually used as shorthand for "noticeably bigger than a Codex-stipulated chapter strength."
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Jan 16, 2014 04:05
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Arquinsiel posted:"Legion sized" is not a fixed number. It seems to be anything from 10 to 100 thousand marines depending on which Legion you look at. 50,000 is what most official lore considers "Legion sized".
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Jan 16, 2014 04:06
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Noctis Horrendae posted:50,000 is what most official lore considers "Legion sized".
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Jan 16, 2014 04:10
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Arquinsiel posted:"Legion sized" is not a fixed number. It seems to be anything from 10 to 100 thousand marines depending on which Legion you look at. Hell, betrayer indicates the ultramarines might have had as many as 100 million new recruits in the early stages of implantation from the one world. Of course whether that line was meant to illustrate Kharn's character (that he was the only one thinking strategically) or an attempt to bump up the numbers for a galaxy wide war is debatable. I'd tend towards the former, but ADB and MacNeill have both pointed out the scale issue in interviews and the size of legions has already been bumped once so who knows
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Jan 16, 2014 04:11
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Fried Chicken posted:Hell, betrayer indicates the ultramarines might have had as many as 100 million new recruits in the early stages of implantation from the one world.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:13
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Arquinsiel posted:Most "offical lore" just makes vague references to "really big" and implies that the Second Founding Chapters were the sum total survivors of the Heresy. They might have started to pin it down with a few here and there in the novels but they didn't necessarily all have a standard size. Well, yeah. I'm not implying that, but generally 50,000 is considered the optimal "pre-Codex Astartes" size for a legion, if you will. Obviously many went over that.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:16
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Noctis Horrendae posted:50,000 is what most official lore considers "Legion sized". That's smaller than the smallest legion these days. It got bumped up midway through the series so they could tell more stories and because the writers didn't like the scale constraints. Smallest one now is 80,000 marines, most of them 100,000. But the indications are that even the official legion numbers are wrong because the heretics were hiding their size prior to istavaan and guilliman, corn, and Johnson had superior "production" to make up losses Really, it is probably best to treat 40k numbers like the word "wan" in Chinese epics. Sure it means a real value, but in the context of myths and legends it just means "an overwhelmingly huge number"
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Jan 16, 2014 04:17
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Arquinsiel posted:There's also the recruit > initiate > scout > marine process to take into account. There's a good chance that they didn't all make it into power armour. Still, the point is valid. GW have rarely seemed to realise how many men a slogfest like they love talking about would actually take. Probably for the best, look how it turned out for star wars when they had that astrophysicist do it. Fans flipped their lids.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:20
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Fried Chicken posted:Probably for the best, look how it turned out for star wars when they had that astrophysicist do it. Fans flipped their lids. Could you elaborate?
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Jan 16, 2014 04:22
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VanSandman posted:Could you elaborate? Then the Coruscant thing happened, and it was swiftly established to be uninhabitable because the sheer bodyheat of the population would melt most of the buildings.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:26
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Arquinsiel posted:From what I remember it stems from when the dude running Stardestroyer.net someone managed to write an "official" guide to spaceships, and made up the numbers to sound huge as part of a plan to win an internet argument about Star Wars v Star Trek. Then people did the maths on his numbers, and realised that the Death Star wasn't all that impressive, and a half-dozen or so Star Destroyers could do the same job for a fraction of the cost. ... Nerds are awful.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:32
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Arquinsiel posted:From what I remember it stems from when the dude running Stardestroyer.net someone managed to write an "official" guide to spaceships, and made up the numbers to sound huge as part of a plan to win an internet argument about Star Wars v Star Trek. Then people did the maths on his numbers, and realised that the Death Star wasn't all that impressive, and a half-dozen or so Star Destroyers could do the same job for a fraction of the cost. That was some demented star trek trolls that kept invading the theforce.net message boards with bad math because they didn't like what it did to their vs match, i was referring to that stuff within star wars itself with a pissing watch between authors and publishing factions with fans lining up behind them and ripping into each other like mad. You had Karen Traviss and Gary Sarli and the games company on one side, Denning, stover, and lucerno and the TV company on the other, "retconning" each others stuff to leave the biggest stamp on the IP and fans going that special little basement troll berserk in between. Death threats, comparisons to psychopaths, hacking websites, astroturfing on the star wars.com message boards, etc. Basically an example of why them taking a chainsaw to the EU is a good thing Google bullshit like "Talifan" if you want more examples Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 04:36
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Oh dear. That is much worse. I had happily ditched the EU by the time R.A. Salvatore started getting threats for killing off Chewie etc.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:46
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