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Book 6 is partially translated, but it is a fan translation of a fan translation instead of the usual japanese > chinese source. So, one step above google translate. There was at least one completely crazy revelation that showed that the WWB manga isn't canon, though.
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Jan 15, 2014 12:25
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On how equipment restrictions work(not sure why I'm spoiling this other than it being technically from the late novels): In Elder Tales, the condition for equipping an item can be seen through its status screen. For example, this 'green steel Kodachi-black wrought' can be equipped by Guardian, Samurai, Assassin, Swashbuckler, Bard and Kannagi, these 6 classes. Samurai can basically equip all swords, but if you look at the status screen of some swords, there are still some exceptions. On the other hand, Monk can't equip most swords, but he can equip the ones that specifically states that it can be equipped by Monks. The main weapons for Akatsuki's class Assassin are bows, one hand swords and short swords. But they can equip a wide array of other weapons if they wish to. Akatsuki uses the Kodachi when Elder Tales was a game because she think it is cool, but she has grown to love it with more concrete reasons after the Apocalypse. With her experience in Kendo, this is weapon she find easiest to use. Firstly, the adventurers in Elder Tales are divided into different ranks every 10 levels, because higher tier equipment are available every ten levels. Every adventurer needs to refresh their equipment after reaching the next rank. Veteran adventurers will pay even more attention to his equipment and review them frequently. With the level cap at 100, all the equipment are divided into 10 ranks. In terms of weapons, there are one handed sword, two handed sword, spear, axe, pole arm, bows, staff, clubs, gauntlets, throwing weapons, whips and other special weapons. You can further classify them, but they are not innumerable. Another way to divide them is by the adventurer's main class. Take Kodachi for instance, Assassin focusing on agility and attack power will consider different attributes from Kannagi concentrating on magic power and defense when selecting weapons. Similarly, preference on higher damage per strike or higher attack speed will affect your weapon choice. Applying these conditions will filter the choices further down from the 10% suitable by level rank. The choices will dwindle down to a manageable amount out of the hundred thousand available weapons. For Akatsuki, that will be about a dozen weapon type. Here lies the biggest problem. The possibility of obtaining them. In Elder Tales, the most powerful weapons are the rewards from major raids with no exception. Akatsuki has no experience taking part in major raids. Although her level and gaming skills are high enough to take pride in, but that's the limit of adventurers that only goes for party battles. Also, 90% of the raid weapon drops has a 'no trade' attribute. That means if you don't take the items after taking part in the raid, you won't ever be able to obtain them. Although Akatsuki has a dozen weapon on her wish list, but only 2 can be traded without taking part in major raids. veekie fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 13:08
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I honestly wish that we stick less to MMO mechanics, more on politics and the social implications of being placed inside immortal bodies. Because seriously, the MMO mechanics don't make any god drat sense. There's no reason for me to not be able to heat a hunk of meat on a fire until it becomes edible, unless I have some arbitrary number in something. There's no reason for me to not be able to leave something on the floor and let someone else pick it up. And there's no reason for me to be unable to pick up a hunk of steel and swing it around just because my arbitrary number isn't high enough.
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Jan 15, 2014 14:02
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Phobophilia posted:I honestly wish that we stick less to MMO mechanics, more on politics and the social implications of being placed inside immortal bodies. Because seriously, the MMO mechanics don't make any god drat sense. There's no reason for me to not be able to heat a hunk of meat on a fire until it becomes edible, unless I have some arbitrary number in something. There's no reason for me to not be able to leave something on the floor and let someone else pick it up. And there's no reason for me to be unable to pick up a hunk of steel and swing it around just because my arbitrary number isn't high enough. You are a strange person. It makes sense because it is a game and games have rules.
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Jan 15, 2014 14:31
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It'd kinda like having different basic rules of reality come together to give a similar experience.
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Jan 15, 2014 14:34
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Phobophilia posted:I honestly wish that we stick less to MMO mechanics, more on politics and the social implications of being placed inside immortal bodies. Because seriously, the MMO mechanics don't make any god drat sense. There's no reason for me to not be able to heat a hunk of meat on a fire until it becomes edible, unless I have some arbitrary number in something. There's no reason for me to not be able to leave something on the floor and let someone else pick it up. And there's no reason for me to be unable to pick up a hunk of steel and swing it around just because my arbitrary number isn't high enough.
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Jan 15, 2014 18:30
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Mordaedil posted:Riggid programming is probably still a part of them, hence why Crusty can manipulate the princess so easily. Personally I like to think this is because Crusty has been diligently studying the 'Griffith Guide to Getting Your Own Kingdom (First Draft)'. Oh and the academics discovering philosophy for the first time is another good example of the natives suddenly being freed from their programming.
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Jan 15, 2014 21:28
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Elite posted:Personally I like to think this is because Crusty has been diligently studying the 'Griffith Guide to Getting Your Own Kingdom (First Draft)'. Didn't they already explain this? The princess is a teenage girl who acts a lot like his little sister. He has years of real life experience trolling his little sister. Ergo, he can apply that experience in trolling teenage girls towards messing with the princess. I don't think you need to appeal to anything more than that.
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Jan 15, 2014 23:34
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The Evil Thing posted:In theory, Baka Tsuki hosts English translations of a large number of light novels. For a very, very generous definition of "translation". I think I have yet to see a Baka Tsuki translation that isn't clunky as hell and really obnoxious to read. They don't really translate to English as much as they translate into Anime-English. It doesn't flow well in the slightest and it quickly turns me off every time.
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Jan 15, 2014 23:39
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Srice posted:I think I have yet to see a Baka Tsuki translation that isn't clunky as hell and really obnoxious to read. They don't really translate to English as much as they translate into Anime-English. It doesn't flow well in the slightest and it quickly turns me off every time. I feel like the awful style made Sword Art Online a lot more fun to read, but it doesn't work well for something that is actually good, no.
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Jan 15, 2014 23:44
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Clarste posted:Didn't they already explain this? The princess is a teenage girl who acts a lot like his little sister. He has years of real life experience trolling his little sister. Ergo, he can apply that experience in trolling teenage girls towards messing with the princess. I don't think you need to appeal to anything more than that. Especially if his sister is the type to keep perfect appearances outside and is a total bum at home. He knows what Raynesia's maid knows.
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Jan 15, 2014 23:49
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Srice posted:I think I have yet to see a Baka Tsuki translation that isn't clunky as hell and really obnoxious to read. They don't really translate to English as much as they translate into Anime-English. It doesn't flow well in the slightest and it quickly turns me off every time. Baka Tsuki's been on my auto-avoid list of websites for years for precisely this reason. I'll only ever go there if I want to look at the pictures. What amazes me is that nobody seems to have spotted this problem, and started a similar website or project that translates light novels in a way that isn't poo poo. Yen Press and Viz don't count.
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Jan 16, 2014 09:17
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It's what you get for purely volunteer amateur translators, dealing with the language and culture gap. Japan does so love it's wordplay, light novelists even more so than usual and that never translates well. Personally if the english output forms whole sentences it's good enough. And sufficient exposure to japanisms like honorifics(honestly, given the mess they make when they try to translate honorifics I'd rather they just leave it in untouched instead of somehow making it even more awkward) makes things easier to digest.
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Jan 16, 2014 09:26
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You get what you pay for. The fact that you expect better translations to magically pop up for free strikes me as odd. The sorts of people who want to translate light novels in their spare time for no compensation other than random people on the internet complaining about how terrible they are have already made themselves known. Quite simply there is no one else interested in doing this. The problem is not Baka-tsuki. They're just an aggregator.
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Jan 16, 2014 10:02
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Clarste posted:You get what you pay for. The fact that you expect better translations to magically pop up for free strikes me as odd. The sorts of people who want to translate light novels in their spare time for no compensation other than random people on the internet complaining about how terrible they are have already made themselves known. Quite simply there is no one else interested in doing this. Uhh... nobody said anything about expecting free translations. The problem largely crops up because things like LNs have glacial official translation timelines. See also: Spice and Wolf translations being 5 years behind.
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Jan 16, 2014 10:28
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Toshimo posted:Uhh... nobody said anything about expecting free translations. The problem largely crops up because things like LNs have glacial official translation timelines. See also: Spice and Wolf translations being 5 years behind. The person I was responding to was talking websites. I suppose we could get a Crunchyroll of sorts, but honestly translating a LN is more work for something less people are interested in. So I don't see it as being particularly profitable.
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Jan 16, 2014 10:35
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It's a lot of pretty complex work really. Manga and anime get away with it because it's all speech and usually quite short in wordcount and limited in wordplay. Light novels are short novels but still longer than essay length. The translation and proofreading can get quite painful from that alone, even if you have someone who knows both languages at native level.
veekie fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 11:58
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To paraphrase Kingscott, GIGO is not an excuse for turning out a lovely translation. And I have remarkably little patience for someone willing to take another person's work--without permission--and represent them to an entirely different audience by translating it, but unwilling to put in the requisite effort to make it presentable. It's been a while since I've browsed Baka Tsuki in any great detail, but I don't recall any kind of overarching editorial policy saying "This is not your work. You are representing the author. Readers will judge them based on what you do." I'm not asking for some exhaustive Nida-style approach, but there is definitely a middle ground between that and the ghastly pastiches of Google translate that I see so often.
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Jan 16, 2014 13:07
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veekie posted:Spoiled in case it matters(this is all builds stuff, not plot stuff): veekie posted:On how equipment restrictions work(not sure why I'm spoiling this other than it being technically from the late novels): Thanks for posting this. What really makes "trapped in an MMO" plot for me is just how closely the author can tie the world details into the game/engine mechanics, and these kinds of scenario are precisely what you would see in older RPG games. It feels really good when they really know the painfully infinitesimal minute details that a game system can exhibit and make it work in the setting, instead of just "oh it's a game, game stuff!!".
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Jan 16, 2014 15:41
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The Evil Thing posted:To paraphrase Kingscott, GIGO is not an excuse for turning out a lovely translation. And I have remarkably little patience for someone willing to take another person's work--without permission--and represent them to an entirely different audience by translating it, but unwilling to put in the requisite effort to make it presentable. Perhaps, although it's worth noting that these are theoretically rough drafts. Editors are supposed to make multiple passes of them and clean things up towards presentable. In practice, that doesn't happen or the editors themselves are also grossly unqualified. Also, they're often translating from Chinese which makes the whole process inherently suspect anyway. quote:It's been a while since I've browsed Baka Tsuki in any great detail, but I don't recall any kind of overarching editorial policy saying "This is not your work. You are representing the author. Readers will judge them based on what you do." I'm not asking for some exhaustive Nida-style approach, but there is definitely a middle ground between that and the ghastly pastiches of Google translate that I see so often. That would be an interesting disclaimer, but your second point about there being some middle ground: no. Again, what you're doing is simply asking random strangers who you've never met to do more work for free. To me, this is one of those "put your money where your mouth is" things where if you personally aren't active in trying to help then you should probably shut up. I can see a point of view where you think they shouldn't do it at all if they won't do it well, but expecting anyone to do it better "just because" is completely unreasonable and strikes me as fairly arrogant and selfish. In the end, it's a wiki. Do it yourself. You can volunteer at Baka-tsuki to re-write things properly. You can start your own wiki and advertise to translators. Heck, you could offer to pay people, which might attract a better sort of translator as well as being somewhat more blatantly illegal. But sitting here and asking why other people don't work harder on your behalf is just...
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Jan 16, 2014 16:02
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Clarste posted:Perhaps, although it's worth noting that these are theoretically rough drafts. Editors are supposed to make multiple passes of them and clean things up towards presentable. In practice, that doesn't happen or the editors themselves are also grossly unqualified. Also, they're often translating from Chinese which makes the whole process inherently suspect anyway. Re the Chinese translations thing: I'm more than willing to give someone a break vis-a-vis accuracy if they can turn out an intelligible script. It implies they've at least tried to make proper sense of it. As to your second point, I won't pretend that I wouldn't stand to "benefit" from people taking more care, but my point is that it doesn't matter what's good for me; it's the author we should primarily be concerned with. Anime fans are always going on about "faithfulness" and "accuracy" (two words I greatly dislike in a translation context) so I don't see how expecting people to treat the work they're translating with respect is in any way arbitrary. As for your third, I have in fact worked as an editor (of course, they're called proofreaders to ensure they're properly emasculated) for fan translators in the past. Generally, things stay civil as long as I'm not doing much more than tweaking grammar and fixing typos (actual proofreader stuff) but when things get stylistic, there's an odd presumption that the translator is automatically right. Being referred to as "the proofreader" (by a guy who uses other people's names or handles), getting a terse (ungrammatical) shut down email as a reply to something you spent 30 minutes crafting to be as diplomatic and polite as you can, being left hanging in an irc channel without warning... yeah, I'm long done with translators. But I guess I'm just arrogant and selfish.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:10
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The Evil Thing posted:As to your second point, I won't pretend that I wouldn't stand to "benefit" from people taking more care, but my point is that it doesn't matter what's good for me; it's the author we should primarily be concerned with. Anime fans are always going on about "faithfulness" and "accuracy" (two words I greatly dislike in a translation context) so I don't see how expecting people to treat the work they're translating with respect is in any way arbitrary. As I said, I can perfectly understand the point of view that it is disrespectful to the work churn out sloppy translations. However, the logical conclusion to that is that they will stop translating at all, not that they will tap into some heretofore unknown well of motivation and invest exponentially more time and effort into it. In your proposed world there would be no amateur LN translations at all, because the sorts of people who are working on them simply don't have the motivation to do better, and no one else has the motivation to do anything at all. Maybe that would be a better world though. quote:As for your third, I have in fact worked as an editor (of course, they're called proofreaders to ensure they're properly emasculated) for fan translators in the past. Generally, things stay civil as long as I'm not doing much more than tweaking grammar and fixing typos (actual proofreader stuff) but when things get stylistic, there's an odd presumption that the translator is automatically right. Being referred to as "the proofreader" (by a guy who uses other people's names or handles), getting a terse (ungrammatical) shut down email as a reply to something you spent 30 minutes crafting to be as diplomatic and polite as you can, being left hanging in an irc channel without warning... yeah, I'm long done with translators. So you gave up because it was too much trouble to work with these people. IE: you lacked the motivation to continue despite the poor conditions of your work. So why exactly do you expect everyone else suddenly step up and do a better job instead of following your lead and quitting? I mean, there's nothing wrong with quitting. I'm sure you have much better things to do with your life than deal with unpleasant and arrogant translators. But you're still putting more expectations onto others than you hold yourself to (in a vague "I wonder why no one decided to make another site with better translations"). Heck, if you really wanted to you could steal Baka-tsuki's translations and re-write them. What's stopping you? They're not exactly going to sue you for stealing their stolen goods. Clarste fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 20:22
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Emalde posted:Thanks for posting this. What really makes "trapped in an MMO" plot for me is just how closely the author can tie the world details into the game/engine mechanics, and these kinds of scenario are precisely what you would see in older RPG games. It feels really good when they really know the painfully infinitesimal minute details that a game system can exhibit and make it work in the setting, instead of just "oh it's a game, game stuff!!". That was kind of a pain with the other MMO stories yeah. You get the feeling the author just plain doesn't know the subject matter. And what's any online game without arguments over the best builds and gear?
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Jan 16, 2014 20:26
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It's worth skimming the translations of the volumes the show has already covered, since there are some interesting details the show left out. Like Isuzu's backstory (although I'm guessing they'll get to that at some point) and what happened to Tohya's legs. The character portraits also have interesting details, like Sergiatte Cowen always carrying around a stone that can teleport him to safety in case he gets attacked, or Rundelhaus using a dog brush because he has no idea what it's for and he likes how it makes his hair shiny. The appendixes also have lots of world-building details if you're into that kind of thing.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:45
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The Evil Thing posted:As for your third, I have in fact worked as an editor (of course, they're called proofreaders to ensure they're properly emasculated) for fan translators in the past. Generally, things stay civil as long as I'm not doing much more than tweaking grammar and fixing typos (actual proofreader stuff) but when things get stylistic, there's an odd presumption that the translator is automatically right. Being referred to as "the proofreader" (by a guy who uses other people's names or handles), getting a terse (ungrammatical) shut down email as a reply to something you spent 30 minutes crafting to be as diplomatic and polite as you can, being left hanging in an irc channel without warning... yeah, I'm long done with translators. If there is one thing I have learned, it's that a lot of nerds hate editors because they believe that anything bad can be attributed to them and any good they do goes uncredited. Sucks about your experience, I can definitely see why that sort of thing would sour you on doing any more editing work on translations.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:56
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Clarste posted:As I said, I can perfectly understand the point of view that it is disrespectful to the work churn out sloppy translations. However, the logical conclusion to that is that they will stop translating at all, not that they will tap into some heretofore unknown well of motivation and invest exponentially more time and effort into it. In your proposed world there would be no amateur LN translations at all, because the sorts of people who are working on them simply don't have the motivation to do better, and no one else has the motivation to do anything at all. Maybe that would be a better world though. In a sense, you're kind of right, because at least for me there might as well not be an amateur LN translation community. But snideness aside, why do you assume that everyone is as unmotivated as me? "Proposed world"? All I want is for whatever drive these guys have to translate the novels also push them to make their work readable too. You aren't seriously suggesting I'm painting them as some kind of right-wing parody of union labourers? Of course they aren't. I'd say they naïvely power through, trying to get as many words as they can down in approximately the right order, reckoning that the readers can puzzle it all out. They're not stupid or illiterate, they just don't realise they need to care about more than just quantity. Clarste posted:So you gave up because it was too much trouble to work with these people. IE: you lacked the motivation to continue despite the poor conditions of your work. So why exactly do you expect everyone else suddenly step up and do a better job instead of following your lead and quitting. I mean, there's nothing wrong with quitting. I'm sure you have much better things to do with your life than deal with unpleasant and arrogant translators. But you're still putting more expectation onto others than you hold yourself to (in a vague "I wonder why no one decided to make another site with better translations"). Heck, if you really wanted to you could steal Baka-tsuki's translations and re-write them. What's stopping you? They're not exactly going to sue you for stealing their stolen goods. The workers control the means of production. To my considerable irritation, I am not a translator (though this is something I am currently trying to rectify) so I am unable to know whether any changes I make as an editor distort the original meaning. I have to rely on a translator for that. Who sometimes happens to be hyper-defensive about what they write. Lest I have another "proposed world" foisted on me, I supposed I ought to qualify that by no means were all or most translators I worked with like that, but enough frustrated me to the point where I just washed my hands of the whole business. As for actually nicking BT translations, it doesn't really solve the problem that I feel uncomfortable editing something without someone who understands the source text to hold my hand. Believe it or not, though, I tried it once: I copied a few chapters of something (can't remember the name) into Word and fiddled with it until I thought it looked OK. I passed it around to a few friends (who were supportive... and offered no substantial comment  ), but I just didn't like that I couldn't know I hadn't screwed up somewhere. It would be the height of hypocrisy to turn out something substandard when I'm criticising other people for doing exactly that.EDIT: Sorry, I guess I should stop derailing the thread.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:18
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I was not aware that "proposed world" had such connotations. Thank you for your editorial feedback. I meant it in a rather mundane way: if anyone desires anything, then they implicitly wish the world was slightly different. Like, if I want a sandwich then I wish the world was one in which I had a sandwich next to me. I didn't really think of it as political. In this case, you seem to be wishing that translators were more aware of how their work can influence the perceived quality of the original. Anyway, I think we basically agree on most points, but what I wanted to say was just that the ease and lack of standards is exactly why most of these amateur translators are in the business in the first place. If it's not easy, people won't do it. That's... basically it. Also, I suppose it should be noted for the record that I am in fact an amateur translator sometimes, so there's an element of defensiveness here. I haven't done anything for Baka-tsuki, and am completely aware that my failures as a writer in English affect the quality of the translation, but speaking for myself, nothing would get done if I were a perfectionist. There's pretty much no end to the amount of improvement that can be made, and at some point you just have to release it or there's no point. I mean, the whole point is to let other people read the thing in a timely fashion. That's why we do this. Also I have a weird relationship with my editor where I always want to re-write dialog and they try to keep it faithful.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:34
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Vengarr posted:It's worth skimming the translations of the volumes the show has already covered, since there are some interesting details the show left out. Like Isuzu's backstory (although I'm guessing they'll get to that at some point) and what happened to Tohya's legs. The character portraits also have interesting details, like Sergiatte Cowen always carrying around a stone that can teleport him to safety in case he gets attacked, or Rundelhaus using a dog brush because he has no idea what it's for and he likes how it makes his hair shiny.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:01
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veekie posted:Rundelhaus is awesome like that. So true. It sucks that the opening pretty much spoils what is going to happen to him though. I hope it is wrong.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:08
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Clarste posted:Didn't they already explain this? The princess is a teenage girl who acts a lot like his little sister. He has years of real life experience trolling his little sister. Ergo, he can apply that experience in trolling teenage girls towards messing with the princess. I don't think you need to appeal to anything more than that. On its own I thought that explanation was kind of weak, mainly because it rests on Crusty taking one glance at the princess across the length of a ballroom and immediately deducing her entire personality. He doesn't interact with her and notice she's like his sister, he determines she's similar to his sister and then starts interacting with her. It's not a big thing but it just struck me as odd, which is why I came up with a joke theory. Actually "You remind me of a fictional character" would've made more sense to me than "You remind me of my sister", though that would've made for one awkward conversation. I mean bored princesses are a dime a dozen in fantasy kingdoms.
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Jan 17, 2014 02:30
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Elite posted:On its own I thought that explanation was kind of weak, mainly because it rests on Crusty taking one glance at the princess across the length of a ballroom and immediately deducing her entire personality. He doesn't interact with her and notice she's like his sister, he determines she's similar to his sister and then starts interacting with her. It's not a big thing but it just struck me as odd, which is why I came up with a joke theory. You're being hyperbolic, right? What makes it seem like he figures out everything about her before meeting her? It's not like he says anything about her personality before they start interacting. Without knowing anything about her personality, she's still a convenient person to chat up to deal with all the politics they have going on there. All it really takes is 'that's a familiar expression' after he did his first bit of trolling with his "mind-reading" bit and her reactions to feed back into his suspicions.
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Jan 17, 2014 03:31
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No one else sees through Raynesia's public persona to the naturally lazy core because they all really want to believe in the fictional notion of a romantic princess. It is probably a combination of factors. No one else really tries to read her, Crusty is good at reading people, and he has a lot of experience with his sister. There isn't much too support this, but perhaps he approached Raynesia because she reminded him of his sister and as he got to know her it became apparent that Raynesia really was quite similar to her. gimme the GOD DAMN candy fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 07:45
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I do wonder if he doesn't actually have a sister, but actually refers to his experience from playing dating sims.
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Jan 17, 2014 08:26
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Serious Frolicking posted:No one else sees through Raynesia's public persona to the naturally lazy core because they all really want to believe in the fictional notion of a romantic princess. It is probably a combination of factors. No one else really tries to read her, Crusty is good at reading people, and he has a lot of experience with his sister. It seems that he was looking for a way to weasel out of endless waves of nobles trying to manipulate him. Then he spotted Raynesia, and from there, noticed that she was basically doing an elaborate form of slacking(she's just sitting around looking elegant and rebuffing all approaches). She looks bored as hell and reminds him of his sister. "This looks like fun to mess with."
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Jan 17, 2014 08:40
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Mordaedil posted:I do wonder if he doesn't actually have a sister, but actually refers to his experience from playing dating sims. "You remind me of my sister who I am not related to by blood"
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Jan 17, 2014 14:55
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They skipped the best scene between Raynesia and Krusty, where she pretends to be dead and Krusty just ignores her. That reminded ME of my little sister.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:50
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Maybe she reminded him of Killua.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:55
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Episode 16 is out. The saddest little funeral I ever did see. At least that guy who wanted to see Marielle's combat gear can rejoice.
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Jan 18, 2014 14:43
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This series is so perfect about tying the game back into the world at large. Easily the best out of every series that has tried.
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Jan 18, 2014 14:49
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This episode seemed to have the weirdest moral. "We shouldn't risk being inconvenienced by respawning miles away by trying to save people's lives if there's nothing in it for us." What? I guess there was some fatuous nonsense about not interfering with military planning too, but the central conflict of this episode (what little there was of it) seemed very odd indeed.
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Jan 18, 2014 15:37
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